The Incompleteness of WL's Ministry

[kisstheson]

Hello dear ones,

At some point earlier in this decade (approximately 2002 or 2003), brother Ron Kangas stated in a message words very similar to these: “The written ministry we have received from Brother Lee is detailed, complete, and balanced, with every point receiving just the right amount of emphasis.” (I am obviously relying on memory, but his words were very, very, close to these. I vividly remember this speaking because it was the boldest speaking about WL’s ministry that I had heard up to that point. And at the time I was fully inclined to believe such speaking!)

Fast forward to October 31st, 2008. It has been almost two years since the Lord led my family and I to stop meeting with the LC. Even before my family and I stopped meeting, I was already beginning to immerse myself in the writings of other gifted ministers of Christ besides WL. I made an amazing discovery - many dear brothers and sisters in Christ have shared on various topics in a much deeper, richer, way than WL ever did. Some opened up various portions of the Scriptures better than Lee did, some expounded on various matters related to the Christian life better than Lee did, and some investigated matters related to eschatology, ecclesiology, pneumatology, etc. better than Lee did. On the one hand, this should not come as a surprise at all, since WL was, after all, only one man. On the other hand, for anyone who has lived in a region that had been solidly pro-LSM for decades, the fact that WL’s ministry is not "the final court of appeals" on all matters may come as something of a shock.

My primary interest in this thread is not to critique WL’s writings, either pro or con, but to simply point out those writings of other gifted ministers of Christ which I have encountered that do indeed fill up a lack in WL’s ministry. I invite all of you to join with me and share as well!

A disclaimer – the “seed” of the burden from which this thread sprang forth was a post I put together on “that other forum” during our fast and furious exchanges with brother “cuttingstraight”. I mentioned several writings of other ministers of Christ which covered certain specific matters in a fuller, more complete, way than WL ever did. At the end of that post, I stated “I could go on and on . . .”. Well, brother “cuttingstraight” responded, in his usual style (“Dear brother kisstheson, thank you for your post . . .” ). To my surprise, brother Ohio responded as well. I had stated “I could go on and on . . . “, to which brother Ohio responded, “Dear brother, I wish you would.” My point is this – before the Lord I feel strongly that I should respect dear brother Ohio’s burden. And so, if you don’t like this thread, don’t blame me, blame Ohio!

[kisstheson]

OK. Let’s start out with a very straightforward and obvious example of a brother who expounded deeply on one of the books of the Bible which WL touched in a very light way. I am sure you are all familiar with the history of the Life Studies. Beginning in 1974, WL held weekly meetings to go through the Life Study of Genesis, followed by weekly meetings to go through the Life Study of Exodus. At the same time, WL was holding biannual trainings for the Life Studies of the NT books. The NT Life Studies would often be supplemented by other conferences outside of the biannual trainings. In other words, the Life Studies of Genesis, Exodus, and all the New Testament books, were, by and large (but not always), a detailed exposition, on a verse-by-verse basis. When the NT Life Studies were completed in the mid-1980’s, WL spent several biannual trainings on matters like “The Conclusion of the New Testament” and “The New Way/The God-Ordained Way”.

When the Life Studies of the Old Testament books were resumed in the late 1980’s, the pace picked up rather noticeably. This was very evident from the Life Study of Numbers, where we started to get one message covering either half of a chapter from the Bible, or, in many cases, one message covering a whole chapter. With some rare exceptions, this continued through 1 & 2 Samuel. The pace then sped up even more beginning with the Life Study of 1 & 2 Kings. Now multiple chapters of the Bible were being covered in one message. This very fast pace continued right through the final Life Study Training (8 messages to cover the 31 chapters of Proverbs and 2 messages to cover the 12 chapters of Ecclesiastes before WL slowed down to cover Song of Songs in some depth).

One of the Old Testament books that got somewhat overlooked in this rush was the book of Esther. WL covered five OT books in the 1994 Winter Training: 1 & 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, and Esther. Esther, an OT book with 10 chapters, was covered in two rather brief messages. WL emphasized two points from the book of Esther: God’s hidden care for His people even in their captivity and God’s faithfulness to His Word. These are very good points, but for someone who had shown us "Christ and the Church" on every page of Scripture, there was a whole lot of rich detail, a whole lot of rich typology, and a whole lot of practical application in the book of Esther that he never touched.

Therefore, I present dear brother Ian Thomas’ book If I Perish, I Perish (originally published in 1967) as a much better exposition of the book of Esther. Brother Ian Thomas’ book really digs into the typology in the book of Esther. He points out that the different characters in Esther represent the different parts of the tripartite man. Mordecai represents the Holy Spirit and the whole book presents a detailed and rich portrait of the Holy Spirit’s work of regeneration and gradual transformation within God’s NT children. In Ian Thomas’ outline of Esther, the sections are: the Holy Spirit resisted, the Holy Spirit received, the Holy Spirit grieved, the Holy Spirit quenched, the Holy Spirit obeyed, and the Fullness of the Holy Spirit. All throughout brother Thomas’ book, NT verses are referenced which explain the spiritual reality of what the pictures in the book of Esther are showing. Brother Thomas’ book is truly a marvelous, helpful, enlightening book, much more so than WL’s Life Study of Esther.

[UntoHim]

Thanks kisstheson for starting this thread.

Anybody who has followed my little act over the years knows that I would consider the ministry of Witness Lee something far, far worse then "incomplete". Nevertheless, I will try to contain myself (just on this thread though)

Firstly, I think we should keep in mind who or what is the origin of this rather preposterous notion that any one man can have a "complete" ministry. For the purposes of our discussions, I think this notion could be traced directly to Watchman Nee.

Nee found the ministries of the Western missionaries to be rather shallow, and certainly incomplete as far as the "higher" biblical truths. (and who could blame him) Some of the main things that Nee found to be incomplete were the teachings and practices of "The Church". Nee, being a Chinese native, was much more concerned with the long term care and building up of Chinese Christians, while the missionaries, for the most part, were there to "save souls". Now, looking back over many years, it is easy enough to see that neither the missionaries NOR Watchman Nee had a "complete" ministry - rather they were BOTH part of the one, blessed and complete ministry.

Whether Witness Lee picked up this notion of one man having a "complete" ministry from Watchman Nee, or simply took Nee's apparent error here and greatly magnified it (as he did with many of Nee's teachings) is almost immaterial at this point. Somehow, some way, Witness Lee convinced a whole lot of people that his little personal "ministry" was THE complete "one ministry for the age". Thankfully, many are now coming to the realization that the very notion that the ministry of one man is "complete" is not only preposterous, it is downright dangerous.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Anybody who has followed my little act over the years knows that I would consider the ministry of Witness Lee something far, far worse then "incomplete". Firstly, I think we should keep in mind who or what is the origin of this rather preposterous notion that any one man can have a "complete" ministry. For the purposes of our discussions, I think this notion could be traced directly to Watchman Nee.

UntoHim, I really need some support from you to accept this thought. This is the opposite of my current understanding. Can you elaborate and support it?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Can you elaborate and support it?

Oh, probably not without taking this thread way off track. Did you miss this part of my post...

Originally Posted by UntoHim

..Whether Witness Lee picked up this notion of one man having a "complete" ministry from Watchman Nee, or simply took Nee's apparent error here and greatly magnified it (as he did with many of Nee's teachings) is almost immaterial at this point.

If you want to join me over on this board
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...splay.php?f=14
I will be glad to duke it out with you there

[kisstheson]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Oh, probably not without taking this thread way off track. Did you miss this part of my post...


If you want to join me over on this board
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...splay.php?f=14
I will be glad to duke it out with you there

Dear brothers Ohio and UntoHim,

Thank you so much for not derailing this thread! I appreciate your respect for the burden of the Lord in this present thread. We don't need any "flies in the ointment" here! (Thanks for the verse reference from Ecclesiastes, YP0534!)

I took the liberty of opening a new thread entitled "Early Nee" vs. "Later Nee'" on the "If You Really Nee To Know" sub-forum. I hope that new thread proves to be a useful beginning for a profitable discussion in the Lord.

[kisstheson]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Anybody who has followed my little act over the years knows that I would consider the ministry of Witness Lee something far, far worse then "incomplete". Nevertheless, I will try to contain myself (just on this thread though)

I appreciate your willingness to contain yourself, dear brother UntoHim!

Like I stated in my opening post, I foresee this being a thread whose purpose is not to critique WL’s ministry, either pro or con. Rather, I foresee a thread whose purpose is to point out the writings of other gifted ministers of Christ who covered certain matters in a better, fuller, more complete, way than WL did. My hope is that easily verifiable historical facts will be presented, facts that anyone can verify for themselves by looking at their own LSM publications or by going to lsm.org.

I do believe there is something of the Lord in all this, since the string of events which led up to this point has been rather remarkable. Just yesterday I received a PM from a dear brother who opened his heart and stated a “mission statement” for this thread in much clearer terms than I ever could have done!

One thing we should be thankful for regarding our time inside the LC is this: We truly were exposed to a good bit of the best writings from historical Christianity, across the spectrum of denominations and affiliations. From Luther to Guyon! From Darby to TAS! As a group we really have passed through something together that has equipped us to present the rich and diverse spiritual heritage of Christian writings in an unbiased way. This rich and diverse spiritual heritage is not ours alone – it is the birthright of every born-again believer. As we have all experienced for ourselves, many of these riches reside outside of the LSM presses! Those inside the LC may very well be completely unaware of these others riches. And those outside the LC may be surrounded by such a dizzying assortment of Christian literature that they would welcome any help they can get in separating the wheat from the chaff.

I love you in Christ, dear brother.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by kisstheson

2 messages to cover the 12 chapters of Ecclesiastes

That's a generous description!

It's less than 15 total pages!

The two "messages" are barely more than outlines.

And they only deal with the first and last chapters!

I never looked at "LS Ecclesiastes" before.

:rollingeyes2:

I would humbly suggest that it would be at least as important to study Eccl. 10:1 as the leprosy in the wall in Leviticus:

"Dead flies make the perfumer's ointment give off an evil odor; so a little folly outweighs wisdom and honor."

But perhaps not.

Does anyone among us here need an interpretation of this verse?

[kisstheson]

Originally Posted by YP0534

That's a generous description!

It's less than 15 total pages!

The two "messages" are barely more than outlines.

And they only deal with the first and last chapters!

I never looked at "LS Ecclesiastes" before.

:rollingeyes2:

I would humbly suggest that it would be at least as important to study Eccl. 10:1 as the leprosy in the wall in Leviticus:

"Dead flies make the perfumer's ointment give off an evil odor; so a little folly outweighs wisdom and honor."

But perhaps not.

Does anyone among us here need an interpretation of this verse?

Dear brother YP0534,

I am very glad that you checked out what I said for yourself. Yes, my description of "brief" is probably too generous. Whole chapters of Ecclesiastes are sometimes covered in one page of the Life Study. A lot of the speaking in the Life Study is simply a restating of the points on the outline. Ultimately, however, what is the most serious is that many verses of Ecclesiastes, with all their rich detail, were never covered at all.

This is also the case with the Life Study of Esther. There are only two messages to cover an OT History book containing ten chapters. The second message is almost entirely a plain retelling of the story in the book of Esther, with no interpretation. So much rich detail, so much typology, was never touched. Anyone desirous of being blessed by the richness of the divine revelation in Esther will have to look elsewhere. I can think of no richer interpretation of Esther than brother Ian Thomas' book If I Perish, I Perish.

[Hope]

Dear KTS,

I heard the spoken messages by Ian Thomas from which the book was composed. They were a life changer for me. My Christian life took off after that experience. Thomas was traveling in Texas in 1963-64 and in many ways set the stage for Brother Lee. He caused Don Looper and many others as well as myself to have a craving for more of Christ than what we were receiving in the Baptist denomination. I still regularly contemplate the practical truths I learned from Major Ian Thomas. In fact, when I was considering if there was a future with the LSM and what course I should take I quoted this verse to brothers with whom I was in fellowship, “If I perish I perish.”

A believer in Jesus Christ, who is seeking to be a true disciple,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[kisstheson]

Dear brother Hope,

That is quite a testimony! There really is a lot of power in those words "If I perish, I perish", isn't there? What a wonderful attitude of abandonment to the Lord is contained in those words.

You heard those messages in person?! I am jealous! (In a good way! ) Those messages by brother Ian Thomas had a similar effect on me. I first heard them in my home church not that long ago. We all had purchased a copy of If I Perish, I Perish and we also had a set of the audio tapes. What a rich time we had going through those messages! I really appreciated the way brother Thomas unveiled the flow of the spiritual typology in Esther in a very practical way. What a marvelous picture of the Holy Spirit's transformation work within us. For the record, we also went through brother Thomas' messages entitled The Saving Life of Christ in a similar way.

Your testimony definitely points out that even in his early days in the U.S., brother WL was not complete in himself. At least in part, he reaped what brother Ian Thomas had previously sown. There really is a marvelous interdependency amongst all believers in Christ, and we desperately need one another. We can not afford to draw lines around those from whom we will receive the supply from the Head and those from whom we will not receive the supply.

May God be merciful to us all.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by kisstheson

A disclaimer – the “seed” of the burden from which this thread sprang forth was a post I put together on “that other forum” during our fast and furious exchanges with brother “cuttingstraight”. I mentioned several writings of other ministers of Christ which covered certain specific matters in a fuller, more complete, way than WL ever did. At the end of that post, I stated “I could go on and on . . .”. Well, brother “cuttingstraight” responded, in his usual style (“Dear brother kisstheson, thank you for your post . . .” ). To my surprise, brother Ohio responded as well. I had stated “I could go on and on . . . “, to which brother Ohio responded, “Dear brother, I wish you would.” My point is this – before the Lord I feel strongly that I should respect dear brother Ohio’s burden. And so, if you don’t like this thread, don’t blame me, blame Ohio!

I like this thread, I like this thread! I remember those exchanges with cuttingstraight! How could I forget that time!?!

KTS, reading your testimony again, I am amazed that more real seekers of Christ in the LC's, have not reached the same conclusions. Keep seeking!

Quick testimony. Back in ~'89, a brother I was laboring with then, told me this one day: "I spent far more time laboring in the scripture before I met with the LC." By that time, we had together gone thru several years of unending changes during the 80's concerning the "new way."

His comment always bothered me. At that point I was the "senior" with 2 migrations and a decade and a half serving in the LC's. He only had several years, hence, I dismissed his comment as "immaturity." But, looking back, he was right on!

The "ministry" filled us with many "lies" and so many "broken promises." I wanted to believe them. I wanted to believe them all. By then, I had too much invested not too! But what do I do about all the plain facts? We had become a people of endless changes, looking for the ultimate "way" or "new way" to bear fruit and bring the Lord back, but ... no "way" worked! No "way" could work! "Unless the Lord build the house, the laborers labor in vain." And ... all our work took us further away from the Lord! But ... it was supposed to bring us closer to Him! So ... I dare dare not bring up the topic to other brothers, lest I "blow cold winds." By then so many of us had traded in our "seeking" for all the "doing" that was required of us. How sad!

Anyways, keep posting! I am reading!

[kisstheson]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I like this thread, I like this thread! I remember those exchanges with cuttingstraight! How could I forget that time!?!

KTS, reading your testimony again, I am amazed that more real seekers of Christ in the LC's, have not reached the same conclusions. Keep seeking!

Quick testimony. Back in ~'89, a brother I was laboring with then, told me this one day: "I spent far more time laboring in the scripture before I met with the LC." By that time, we had together gone thru several years of unending changes during the 80's concerning the "new way."

His comment always bothered me. At that point I was the "senior" with 2 migrations and a decade and a half serving in the LC's. He only had several years, hence, I dismissed his comment as "immaturity." But, looking back, he was right on!

Anyways, keep posting! I am reading!

Dear brother Ohio. Thanks for the encouragement! It means a lot to me, it really does.

May many of those in the LC come to see that they were not given a complete package after all. May they come to see that in many areas where WL's portion is incomplete, other gifted ministers have a wonderfully rich portion that fills the gap. The truly "complete" ministry can only be known when we open ourselves to receive spiritual help from all gifted ministers of Christ. That would include opening ourselves to frequently receive spiritual help directly from the written Word of God!