The Kingdom Principle of Relationships

[TLFisher]

This past November 12, 2011 when Ron Kangas was giving a message on The Church as the Kingdom of God, a point Ron emphasized was on the kingdom principle of relationships. Brother Ron's scriptural reference was the Gospel of Mark chapter 11. Specifically, verses 25 and 26:

Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions. ["But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your transgressions.”]

Several questions I have. Suppose you heard this same message whether in Bellevue, Washington or in another region, do you take it to heart?
In recent years from saints meeting in the local churches I have touched a stronghold that is unforgiving of brothers like Max Rapoport, John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, and so forth. A heart of no desire to learn the other side of the story or (the other side of the coin). A mind-set that has put their faith in the words levied against these brothers. These brothers are in their 80's now and this is still the Age of Grace. The Kingdom Age has yet to arrive. Until that time, "forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions."

[KSA]

Now I find it rather peculiar when we devide the kingdom age and the grace age - as if God is a double-faced Janus - today He is a nice God who is merciful and forgiving, tomorrow He is not nice anymore - He is a wrathful God. I would say that the grace is the nature of His kingdom. He is always full of mercy and cannot change.

The reason why Blended Brothers cannot forgive those who left is because they have a distorted view of God. Their God is wrathful - He is quick to punish. Their God is the God of Truth, not the God of Love (as if truth and love are opposites).

I was recently thinking about the words of Jesus when He commanded to make peace with your adversary while you are still on the way. I was thinking why the guy would refuse to make peace on the way. He would refuse because he was sure that the Judge would be on his side. For him justice was more important than peace and mercy, and he missed that the Judge is the Peacemaker! Blended Brothers are absolutely sure that the Judge is on their side. They think He will pour rage on their adversaries. However, the heavenly Judge would ask, "I have forgiven you so much, couldn't you forgive your brother that little? Didn't you know that mercy triumphs over judgement. Therefore, get your judgment without mercy, since you showed no mercy!"

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by KSA

The reason why Blended Brothers cannot forgive those who left is because they have a distorted view of God. Their God is wrathful - He is quick to punish. Their God is the God of Truth, not the God of Love (as if truth and love are opposites).

I was recently thinking about the words of Jesus when He commanded to make peace with your adversary while you are still on the way. I was thinking why the guy would refuse to make peace on the way. He would refuse because he was sure that the Judge would be on his side. For him justice was more important than peace and mercy, and he missed that the Judge is the Peacemaker! Blended Brothers are absolutely sure that the Judge is on their side. They think He will pour rage on their adversaries. However, the heavenly Judge would ask, "I have forgiven you so much, couldn't you forgive your brother that little? Didn't you know that mercy triumphs over judgement. Therefore, get your judgment without mercy, since you showed no mercy!"

You mention the blended brothers, but it's more broad than that. The scope of the recovery is generally unforgiving of those who had left. Suppose you're in a public place an you come across someone who remembers you from meeting in the recovery. You greet them, but they cannot receive you. At parting you leave extolling God's blessing.
Yes, we read in Luke 7 Jesus' parables of two debtors, One owed 50 denarii and the other 500 denarii. How come forgiveness is so easy to receive, but so hard to give? The we see in Romans 15:7 where Paul wrote to accept one another even as Christ accepted us. How come is it to receive Christ's accepting is easy, but to accept someone who left a particular fellowship is not?

I have listened to many ministry messages where the scope is about being overcomers for the kingdom age. What about now? The thought should not be "I cannot receive KSA" or" I cannot receive Terry because of their concepts."
It's concepts where brothers and sisters get written off as "negative", "opposers", "poisonous", or "rebellious". As much reference there is to the New Testament Ministry, there is not much reality exhibited. Instead of using terminology that divdes the Body, there should be more terminology briniging each and everyone into a uniting bond of love.
If a brother is to speak about the kingdom principle of relationships, it's fine if Mark 11 is referenced, but don't neglect 1 Corinhtians 13:4-7

"Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. "

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Terry

You mention the blended brothers, but it's more broad than that. The scope of the recovery is generally unforgiving of those who had left. Suppose you're in a public place an you come across someone who remembers you from meeting in the recovery. You greet them, but they cannot receive you. At parting you leave extolling God's blessing.
Yes, we read in Luke 7 Jesus' parables of two debtors, One owed 50 denarii and the other 500 denarii. How come forgiveness is so easy to receive, but so hard to give? The we see in Romans 15:7 where Paul wrote to accept one another even as Christ accepted us. How come is it to receive Christ's accepting is easy, but to accept someone who left a particular fellowship is not?

I think this is why so many former members simply close the book on the LRC chapter of their lives and try to move on almost as if it didn't happen. They know they cannot try to establish or renew relationships with LRC members without opening up cans of ugly worms that they would simply rather not deal with.

This is what hurts most. It's like you lost members of your family and good friends, which seems wrong before the Lord. Of course, the LRCers would probably view this discomfort as evidence there is something amiss on our part. That just makes the whole situation that much sadder.

In the end I think you have to move on, and keep giving your hurt back to the Lord, but looking to establish new Christian relationships. But one should never think it can never again be as good as it was. That's the lie of Satan. The LRC had no monopoly on Christian fulfillment. To think so is to just believe a lie.

[Cal]

It takes a lot of confidence for a former LRC member to walk back into company with existing LRCers and enjoy what they have to offer while not being intimidated by their spoken and unspoken suggestions that the former member needs to rejoin. One must come to a place of true peace with his choices to do this. Given the ambivalent, confusing feelings and registrations one usually goes through upon leaving (which can go on for years) it's no wonder many simply steer clear of LRCers. This, however, can cause feeling of guilt, too. Just one more thing to deal with. The Lord is gracious though and will get you through. Always believe that.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I think this is why so many former members simply close the book on the LRC chapter of their lives and try to move on almost as if it didn't happen. They know they cannot try to establish or renew relationships with LRC members without opening up cans of ugly worms that they would simply rather not deal with.

This is what hurts most. It's like you lost members of your family and good friends, which seems wrong before the Lord. Of course, the LRCers would probably view this discomfort as evidence there is something amiss on our part. That just makes the whole situation that much sadder.

In the end I think you have to move on, and keep giving your hurt back to the Lord, but looking to establish new Christian relationships. But one should never think it can never again be as good as it was. That's the lie of Satan. The LRC had no monopoly on Christian fulfillment. To think so is to just believe a lie.

Igzy, I've read your post. There's no denying pain whether directly or indirectly. How relationships get severed whether because your relationship whether via family or friendship is conditional according to the ministry. Whether as individual christians or as members of Christ's body, the LSM brand of local churches is not the end all in the normal Christian churchlife. It's one assembly of many. Those who have touched our lives, we should never give up on. Especially in our relationships. Where we meet should regulate who we can or cannot have fellowship with. As new Christian realtionships are established similtaneously I cannot give up on the old ones completely. True there may be some who will reject you because of where you don't meet, but at the same time there are brothers and sisters who will receive you without condition.

[TLFisher]

Based on this portion of a message Ron Kangas gave last November, I had written Ron an email. To date, there has been no response.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by KSA

The reason why Blended Brothers cannot forgive those who left is because they have a distorted view of God.

Very keen observation. This is why it matters what teachings we receive and from whom we receive them. Many of these "blended" brothers have been receiving a distorted view of God for 40 or 50 years. So is there any wonder why they act like they do towards their brothers and sisters in Christ? The current teachings and practices in the LC are simply the end product.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Very keen observation. This is why it matters what teachings we receive and from whom we receive them. Many of these "blended" brothers have been receiving a distorted view of God for 40 or 50 years. So is there any wonder why they act like they do towards their brothers and sisters in Christ? The current teachings and practices in the LC are simply the end product.

One matter that characterizes the Recovery is the way that the brothers get "perfected." As the story goes, M. E. Barber perfected WN by brutally rebuking him on a regular basis. That story became the justification for the way WL treated (actually mis-treated) his coworkers -- regular weekly "ice water baths" as some have stated. As the story was always told, the recently quarantined TC was the most gifted disciple of WL when it came to this form of "perfecting."

To a huge degree, this relationship structure permeated the whole of the Recovery, which explains why this distorted view of God is so prevalent among them. (Note that I differentiate this practice from what many gifted leaders have done to "challenge" their younger brothers in Christ.) To a certain degree, public humiliations can bring grace and spiritual growth to the receiver, much the same way as the torturing inquisitors were "used" by God to "perfect" His children before they entered into glory.

After years of observation, I became convinced that several rotten phenomena resulted from this practice. Firstly, an established hierarchy was maintained by constant negative reinforcement. Via public rebukes, all quickly learn who is the real "boss" around here. Secondly, a pattern of abuse was all too often disseminated throughout the LC's, even affecting the relationships with parents and children. Thirdly, brothers were trained to become man-pleasers rather than God-pleasers. All of these perpetuated a distorted view of God, and damaged relationships in the kingdom.

[77150]

Originally Posted by Ohio

One matter that characterizes the Recovery is the way that the brothers get "perfected." As the story goes, M. E. Barber perfected WN by brutally rebuking him on a regular basis. That story became the justification for the way WL treated (actually mis-treated) his coworkers -- regular weekly "ice water baths" as some have stated. As the story was always told, the recently quarantined TC was the most gifted disciple of WL when it came to this form of "perfecting."

To a huge degree, this relationship structure permeated the whole of the Recovery, which explains why this distorted view of God is so prevalent among them. (Note that I differentiate this practice from what many gifted leaders have done to "challenge" their younger brothers in Christ.) To a certain degree, public humiliations can bring grace and spiritual growth to the receiver, much the same way as the torturing inquisitors were "used" by God to "perfect" His children before they entered into glory.

After years of observation, I became convinced that several rotten phenomena resulted from this practice. Firstly, an established hierarchy was maintained by constant negative reinforcement. Via public rebukes, all quickly learn who is the real "boss" around here. Secondly, a pattern of abuse was all too often disseminated throughout the LC's, even affecting the relationships with parents and children. Thirdly, brothers were trained to become man-pleasers rather than God-pleasers. All of these perpetuated a distorted view of God, and damaged relationships in the kingdom.

12:18 There is that speaketh like the piercings of a sword: but the tongue of the wise is health.

It seems to me that your point is that they abuse saints under the guise of "perfecting" them. Which can seem similar to "challenging" them. However, the difference between the two is that "the tongue of the wise is health" which is not the case with abuse. Is this your point, or did I miss it?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by 77150

12:18 There is that speaketh like the piercings of a sword: but the tongue of the wise is health.

It seems to me that your point is that they abuse saints under the guise of "perfecting" them. Which can seem similar to "challenging" them. However, the difference between the two is that "the tongue of the wise is health" which is not the case with abuse. Is this your point, or did I miss it?

Not sure if that verse adequately describes the differences.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

After years of observation, I became convinced that several rotten phenomena resulted from this practice. Firstly, an established hierarchy was maintained by constant negative reinforcement. Via public rebukes, all quickly learn who is the real "boss" around here. Secondly, a pattern of abuse was all too often disseminated throughout the LC's, even affecting the relationships with parents and children. Thirdly, brothers were trained to become man-pleasers rather than God-pleasers. All of these perpetuated a distorted view of God, and damaged relationships in the kingdom.

Ohio, this is what appears to be an application of Authority & Submission, but excluding the character aspect of the Lord's Worker. End result being as you've indicated.

[seeking1]

Originally Posted by Ohio

To a huge degree, this relationship structure permeated the whole of the Recovery, which explains why this distorted view of God is so prevalent among them. (Note that I differentiate this practice from what many gifted leaders have done to "challenge" their younger brothers in Christ.) To a certain degree, public humiliations can bring grace and spiritual growth to the receiver, much the same way as the torturing inquisitors were "used" by God to "perfect" His children before they entered into glory.

Perfecting sounds kinda harsh, I like the term "help". The leading ones are just trying to "help" the younger brothers, and if the younger or lower ranking brother leaves then... well, they just couldn't take the "help."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by seeking1

Perfecting sounds kinda harsh, I like the term "help". The leading ones are just trying to "help" the younger brothers, and if the younger or lower ranking brother leaves then... well, they just couldn't take the "help."

Perfecting was the word. No doubt about it. At one time, in fact, "perfecting" was all the rage in Anaheim. Probably during the years after the "Max" storm, WL had a weekly "Perfecting Training" in which certain brothers were "perfected" on the platform, by being "diagnosed" in public before all the congregation. By using the term "training," WL had much more liberty to do things they would never do in normal "church."

Concerning not being able to "take the help," at what point does it transition from "help" to abuse? I have witnessed a long trail of precious brothers in the GLA over the years who have left for no other reason than they "had a problem with TC." Should leaders ever reach the point where they decide to "dump" TC, and try to get all those other brothers back? When a brother leaves, why do all the other brothers give the "Perfecter" a free pass, and then pass judgment on the poor disgraced brother?

I personally believe that when "help" or "perfecting" is really of the Lord, then eventually the Lord will witness in the receiver's heart that the fellowship is of God. But wouldn't a private time of fellowship be a more constructive venue? With such a trail of emigrants seeking better pasture outside the Recovery, should not someone ask if this program is even "working?" I do believe an honest evaluation by any number of leaders, would persuade them that there are far too many "extras" that accompany this type of ministry, as I listed in Post #5.

[77150]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Very keen observation. This is why it matters what teachings we receive and from whom we receive them. Many of these "blended" brothers have been receiving a distorted view of God for 40 or 50 years. So is there any wonder why they act like they do towards their brothers and sisters in Christ? The current teachings and practices in the LC are simply the end product.

19:27 Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.

Isn't this verse from Proverbs the point here?