“Becoming one flesh” <–> “one spirit with Christ”

[77150]

1. What does it mean when God said that Adam and Eve would become “one flesh”.

2. How does this understanding relate to our being “one spirit” with Christ.

Igzy asked me to give my understanding of “becoming one flesh” in Post #216 Good Lee/Bad Lee. To do that I will be using scientific references.

So I think I should start with crystal structure. The molecular structure of an element determines the crystal shape it grows into. It is an amazing concept to me since you can make almost any shape out of Lego’s yet we can look at a large crystal and tell precisely what the crystal shape is of the molecule that formed that structure. My favorite example is Pyrite, better known as Fool’s Gold. Pyrite forms big giant cubic crystals. Since the molecular structure of Pyrite is not a cube one would think that this example disproves the law. However, if you look closely at the cubes you can discern little lines on each face. These lines show that one face is not symmetrical with another. As a result you can still determine the symmetry of the Pyrite molecule and it is indeed identical to the actual symmetry. Pyrite is called a pseudo morph, rather rare. The reason I like this so much is that the actual crystal structure of Gold is a cube, so fool’s gold doesn’t just mimic the color, it also mimics the crystal structure.

Likewise I believe that the reason we see so many types and shadows of the spiritual reality in the Bible, in human history, and in creation is somewhat akin to this. All of creation springs from God’s word, the reality we see in the natural realm is built on and based on this word. In the same way that I can determine the symmetry and shape of a molecule by looking a crystal, we can determine spiritual realities by looking at types and figures.

Therefore, the things that make Adam and Eve one flesh are types and figures of spiritual realities because all things were made by the word and apart from the word nothing was made that is made. So that answers question 2, all I have to do now is answer question 1.

First, I believe something special happens when a man and woman are joined together and this special union is referred to by God as “becoming one flesh”.

A few years ago I read an interesting study. They put a female mouse into a cage with two male mice. Each of the males was tied up and kept in separate “rooms” of the cage. The female mouse could travel freely between the two rooms. The female mouse mated with both mice but in the end spent all of her time with the first mouse she had mated with. I think the Bible refers to this as “first love”. Apparently the biologists have determined that experience is imprinted on the brain in such a way that you prefer that first love. I think this is part of what God is referring to, something special happens in that first love, fornication is therefore contrary to the design of God. I think this is also something that Paul was referring to. Going to a prostitute or committing fornication prior to marriage would damage the relationship, likewise going afterwards would confuse the relationship. Likewise in the Bible there is a lot of warnings and commandments to avoid idols. Idolatry is something that is very damaging spiritually. This can also explain why people who were saved in the LRC and then subsequently left the LRC continue to talk about the LRC on sites like this.

However, there is another process that takes place that doesn’t really become apparent for many years. The brain has “mirror neurons” which cause us to mirror in our brain facial expressions and body movements that we see, voices we hear, mannerisms, expressions, etc. So if you are married and spend a lot of time with your spouse you will unconsciously mirror expressions. This will literally be etched into your face. We have all seen boys that seem to unconsciously mimic their dad, or an old couple whose faces look remarkably similar. Paul talks about beholding and reflecting the glory of the Lord. Therefore I think it is very reasonable to think there is a spiritual reality to mirror neurons. This shows that spending time in the presence of the Lord will change you, it will change your expressions, your mannerisms, your words, your speech.

But the act of sex has far more consequences than fornicators wish to admit. Half of all the DNA in your body does not belong to you. Our Body is a host of a myriad number of organisms. Many of these we could not live without which is why taking antibiotics can have very negative consequences. I don’t know how to categorize them as to are they my body or not, but I would certainly say that these organisms are part of my flesh. Now when I have sex with my wife these organisms in me and the ones in her have an opportunity to mingle and to also create new organisms. As a result, STDs can be transmitted by sex, but also, after years of marriage I and my wife are host to pretty much the same organisms. Certainly this is part of becoming one flesh, this also explains Paul’s use of this rule to forbid fornication. In a monogamous society it is impossible to have epidemics of AIDS. You might have a couple who through their union created the HIV virus which subsequently killed them both, much to the confusion of the medical world. But how would this be transmitted? The virus would kill itself when they died. On the other hand a prostitute can be viewed as a laboratory in which every day organisms are being mingled with other organisms creating new organisms. Each prostitute would represent the sum total of all unions she had ever had. Add to this that many of her partners had gone to other prostitutes and the numbers quickly become mind boggling. So the person who goes to a prostitute and says “it was only one time” Paul would respond to and say “what, know ye not that your are one flesh with her?” If she represented 100 unions you didn’t do it once, you did it 101 times. If some of her unions were with people who had visited other prostitutes then maybe it is 1,000 unions or 10,000 unions. With the invention of “sex tours” it is not unreasonable to think that a prostitute could represent 1,000,000 unions. Your flesh expresses and makes a record of everything you do. Likewise I think that your spirit also expresses all that you have done spiritually. Hence the “new age” stuff about everyone worshipping the same God just with different names is to my mind, extremely dangerous.

There was an interesting study done on the brain. They put two test subjects into two rooms about 20 feet apart. The rooms were completely isolated from one another in both sight and sound. However each person wore a funny hat with a unique magnetic field. They were both connected by the same magnetic field. Both were put in the dark for 20 minutes while their brain waves were monitored. In one room a light was shined on the subject from the left after 5 minutes for only a few seconds. Then 10 minutes later it was shined on the same subject from the right. At these two instances the brain waves of this subject spiked, but strangely, they spiked for the other person as well. When asked what they were thinking about they said they had seen a light, first from the left, and then later from the right. The point is that there is a magnetic field over the whole world and brain signals are electrical. There is some anecdotal evidence that our brain can literally be tuned to those around us. No doubt, talking with someone, sharing interests, living together could all cause us to be “tuned” together, but even unconsciously at an organic level it seems the body does this. The Bible says “we have the mind of Christ”. No doubt reading the word helps tune our minds to Christ, but I have had other strange experiences of “tuning my mind” to Christ. When I was first saved I was spending hours a day reading the Bible. I remember during this time I was fellowshipping and someone asked where a particular verse was. I was able to very precisely tell them the chapter and verse. What was weird is that I had not read that book of the Bible yet. The verse had been mentioned in a previous meeting, but the memory was not from the meeting. The only way I was able to explain this to myself was that the word of God is a person, if you spend time with that person you get to know them, the whole person.

In conclusion I believe that God’s use of this expression “become one flesh” and Paul’s use of this expression both refer to something that is far more than “like minded” or “united”.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by 77150

In conclusion I believe that God’s use of this expression “become one flesh” and Paul’s use of this expression both refer to something that is far more than “like minded” or “united”.

Far more... what? Far more mystical? Far more neato? Probably so. But what's the application beyond intimate union?

[77150]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Far more... what? Far more mystical? Far more neato? Probably so. But what's the application beyond intimate union?

When I think of "intimate union" I don't think of the word "flesh". To me the word "flesh" seems much more like "meat". Second, I don't think Paul was condemning fornication because of the relationship aspect.

You come up with intimate union and relationship, but look at the choice of words and the context, it just doesn't work for me.

I think two people becoming one is a marvelous experience that many people never experience.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by 77150

When I think of "intimate union" I don't think of the word "flesh". To me the word "flesh" seems much more like "meat". Second, I don't think Paul was condemning fornication because of the relationship aspect.

You come up with intimate union and relationship, but look at the choice of words and the context, it just doesn't work for me.

I think two people becoming one is a marvelous experience that many people never experience.

So marriage, also known as husband and wife becoming one flesh, has nothing to do with intimacy and relationship?

Beam me up, Mr. Moderator.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by 77150

Idolatry is something that is very damaging spiritually. This can also explain why people who were saved in the LRC and then subsequently left the LRC continue to talk about the LRC on sites like this.

I'm not really into material science or rodent mating habits, but this last sentence jumped out at me. How in the world do you go from mousy love to idolatry to leaving the LRC and posting on this forum?

Slow down there fellow!

Can we discuss this further or are you just trollin' us?

Let me introduce myself. I spent my 30 best years in the LC, actively serving the Lord and the church. I left because I saw bullying on every level of the Recovery. I came to LC forums because, as Paul Harvey used to say, I learned the "rest of the story." What I witnessed in the LRC, concerning the adulation of WL, was the closest thing to idolatry that I came to.

Please explain.

[Guest2]

Im not an LCer,

But I have some educated background and the extrapolation from science, sex to one flesh and its logic doesnt add up.

How do you go from STD's, body fluids to one body?

First you need to break down what is a body

Human body consists of the following
Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen and "electricity (memories)"
There is no soul nor "conciousness" in science.
So having sex is just exchanging fluids and electricity. Thats all
Your DNA will never change through sex. Viruses can kill you, you can get cancer. But thats not YOU.

Just because I get a cold doesnt mean that cold is me and I become one with the virus. It is a foriegn object which is why your white cells attack it. So I dont see the whole argument with STD's and how it makes you become one flesh.

Empty mindless sex doesnt join you to that person. If I wipe your memory and you have no recollection of this occurance are u still one? What makes you one? This mystical connection that was mingled when you had sex?

Infact, the best way to become one with your partner is to turn canniblistic. Then if I fully eat my partner, I am her and she is me?

I dont know man, but whatever your logic is its scary.

When you add religions Point of view. I.E soul, will, concioussness then we have a discussion about one flesh.

Physically, one flesh you will not become. So please stop using "science"

Ask Frankenstein.

[77150]

Originally Posted by Leomon

Im not an LCer,

But I have some educated background and the extrapolation from science, sex to one flesh and its logic doesnt add up.

How do you go from STD's, body fluids to one body?

First you need to break down what is a body

I never said they become one body, the Bible says they become "one flesh". When we use the word Body we think of a complete entity, when we use the word flesh it can refer to a pound of meat. So the fact that two people have the same genetic material within their body would by definition mean they have the same "flesh" or that their flesh is one.

If I have the same mannerisms, expressions, appearance, thoughts, etc. and it turns out that I have them as a result of key organic features built into the human body, then to me that is very interesting. Why is it necessary to have these features? It proves the expression "my better half" is more than just a saying. It also proves that when God said he created them male and female and called their name Adam that He really did create a corporate being that was designed from the get go to be part of a whole.

[Guest2]

Originally Posted by 77150

I never said they become one body, the Bible says they become "one flesh". When we use the word Body we think of a complete entity, when we use the word flesh it can refer to a pound of meat. So the fact that two people have the same genetic material within their body would by definition mean they have the same "flesh" or that their flesh is one.

If I have the same mannerisms, expressions, appearance, thoughts, etc. and it turns out that I have them as a result of key organic features built into the human body, then to me that is very interesting. Why is it necessary to have these features? It proves the expression "my better half" is more than just a saying. It also proves that when God said he created them male and female and called their name Adam that He really did create a corporate being that was designed from the get go to be part of a whole.

I dont know if using science to describe "becoming one flesh" is the right way to go.

Fer me all I was trying to say is that its pointless to try and use science to define becoming one flesh or one body or whatever.

Twins have the same genetic identity (DNA) but it doesnt make them one body. Its the soul, their personality, and the forbidden word "natural being" that makes them who they are.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by 77150

I never said they become one body, the Bible says they become "one flesh". When we use the word Body we think of a complete entity, when we use the word flesh it can refer to a pound of meat.

Unfortunately for that argument, the NT was written in Greek, not English. Flesh in the Bible usually means one of three things.

• The human body.
• Humanity.
• Fallen humanity.

It never means meat. The word became flesh means the word became humanity, not the word became meat.

[77150]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Unfortunately for that argument, the NT was written in Greek, not English. Flesh in the Bible usually means one of three things.

• The human body.
• Humanity.
• Fallen humanity.

It never means meat. The word became flesh means the word became humanity, not the word became meat.

In the NT I was under the impression that the word flesh always carried the idea of fallen or sinful. So if it is referring to "the human body" it would include the idea of sin. So, to become "one flesh" can also mean that the two bodies now carry the same corrupting influence.

The word flesh also, in my understanding, does not carry a spiritual connotation whereas the word Body can. The word flesh always refers to something you can touch and see, whereas the word Body does not. If God had said "they become one body" then clearly He would be referring to something we can't see. In that case a spiritual or relational interpretation would be much better supported.

My point was that you should not substitute the word "Body" for "flesh". The word flesh carries a distinct ("biblical") meaning. For someone who seems so clear on following key principles in deciphering the Bible it is strange to me that you would so easily overlook the substitution of the word Body for flesh. You even appear to be justifying its use in your post?

Secondly, the context of 1Cor is clearly using this word of the two becoming one as a plain word to prove there is a lasting and permanent damage done to your flesh in joining to a prostitute (you are sinning against your own body). This lasting and permanent damage has subsequently been proven scientifically. The unknown is not that a visit to a prostitute will leave an indelible mark on your flesh, what is unknown is if this is the only mark that it will leave.

There are many ways to make two things "one". If both bodies now carry HIV would that make them one? Certainly that understanding would be in line with Paul's condemnation of fornication and the reason he gave.

[77150]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I'm not really into material science or rodent mating habits, but this last sentence jumped out at me. How in the world do you go from mousy love to idolatry to leaving the LRC and posting on this forum?

Slow down there fellow!

Can we discuss this further or are you just trollin' us?

Let me introduce myself. I spent my 30 best years in the LC, actively serving the Lord and the church. I left because I saw bullying on every level of the Recovery. I came to LC forums because, as Paul Harvey used to say, I learned the "rest of the story." What I witnessed in the LRC, concerning the adulation of WL, was the closest thing to idolatry that I came to.

Please explain.

Trolling you?! It has been well documented that trolls hate christians, besides Hans Christian Anderson there was a recent documentary done on trolls in Norway. So how could a troll pick a name that means "praise the Lord" that doesn't make sense. Besides, not to offend anyone, but trolls are pretty stupid creatures.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by 77150

Trolling you?! It has been well documented that trolls hate christians, besides Hans Christian Anderson there was a recent documentary done on trolls in Norway. So how could a troll pick a name that means "praise the Lord" that doesn't make sense. Besides, not to offend anyone, but trolls are pretty stupid creatures.

Lots of Christians "troll" the web. We have seen a few here. Some trolls are even "smart."

Who picked a name that means "praise the Lord?"

Lots of "Christian" things just don't make any sense.

Anyways, care to comment about how you went from mousy love to idolatry to leaving the LRC and posting on this forum?


And welcome to the forum!

[77150]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Lots of Christians "troll" the web. We have seen a few here. Some trolls are even "smart."

Who picked a name that means "praise the Lord?"

Lots of "Christian" things just don't make any sense.

Anyways, care to comment about how you went from mousy love to idolatry to leaving the LRC and posting on this forum?


And welcome to the forum!

77150, use a phone, you'll figure it out

[77150]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What am I Batman?

Riddle me a riddle ...

Well I suppose "Let everything that hath breath praise the Lord" will include Batman and the Riddler. Touche.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

No, Ohio, he doesn't.

rayliotta

Since you both tend to answer questions with riddles, I only noted the similarity.

What's with the tag line -- "Poster is no longer a Christian" -- is that like saying you are no longer a part of God's family? Once we are born into a family, that's not something we can change.

[77150]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Let me introduce myself. I spent my 30 best years in the LC, actively serving the Lord and the church. I left because I saw bullying on every level of the Recovery. I came to LC forums because, as Paul Harvey used to say, I learned the "rest of the story." What I witnessed in the LRC, concerning the adulation of WL, was the closest thing to idolatry that I came to.

Please explain.

Now this is interesting. You could read this and assume that the reason you are posting here is not because the LRC was your first love, but because you have learned "the rest of the story". Except that explains why you left the LRC, not why you are posting here. So simple question, was the LRC your first love? (Perhaps before you learned the whole story?) After all you have posted quite a bit here, what is driving you to do this?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by 77150

Now this is interesting. You could read this and assume that the reason you are posting here is not because the LRC was your first love, but because you have learned "the rest of the story". Except that explains why you left the LRC, not why you are posting here. So simple question, was the LRC your first love? (Perhaps before you learned the whole story?) After all you have posted quite a bit here, what is driving you to do this?

Thanks for asking. I did love the Recovery, WL and the LC's. For the most, part I still do. It was really the Lord who was/is my first love. He led me to the LC, and I left the LC to find Him again.

I learned much while posting here. Sometimes I ask myself what am I doing here.

One reason is that many who have left the LC, due to serious abuses and errors, have kept silent, especially the ones from greater Ohio. They were trained to be quiet, and "leave like a gentleman," and they did. But that policy is only self-serving for bad leaders. I am thankful that some brothers like John Ingalls have documented the reasons for their departure. Saints need to know the truth so that they can make informed decisions. WL and his cadre of minions should be accountable for how they have treated and mistreated God's children.

That said, I still love WL and all the saints.

[OBW]

So let's look at the science.

Originally Posted by 77150

A few years ago I read an interesting study. They put a female mouse into a cage with two male mice. Each of the males was tied up and kept in separate “rooms” of the cage. The female mouse could travel freely between the two rooms. The female mouse mated with both mice but in the end spent all of her time with the first mouse she had mated with. I think the Bible refers to this as “first love”. Apparently the biologists have determined that experience is imprinted on the brain in such a way that you prefer that first love. I think this is part of what God is referring to, something special happens in that first love, fornication is therefore contrary to the design of God.

This clearly is the design of God. I will not state otherwise. But it is not because of the "flesh." It is a psychological pattern. And every time we try to go against this designed pattern, it damages the pattern. Those that continually cheat eventually have problems with the "first love." Or their first love was just an experiment in high school with someone they didn't really love. They eventually break the mental link between sex and love and relationship and none of it matters.

But it is not about "flesh." There are some places where "flesh" is used to represent the fallen desires of the heart — something not physical. But none of it, done right or wrong, makes us a single "flesh" in the physical sense.

Originally Posted by 77150

The brain has “mirror neurons” which cause us to mirror in our brain facial expressions and body movements that we see, voices we hear, mannerisms, expressions, etc. So if you are married and spend a lot of time with your spouse you will unconsciously mirror expressions. This will literally be etched into your face. We have all seen boys that seem to unconsciously mimic their dad, or an old couple whose faces look remarkably similar. Paul talks about beholding and reflecting the glory of the Lord. Therefore I think it is very reasonable to think there is a spiritual reality to mirror neurons. This shows that spending time in the presence of the Lord will change you, it will change your expressions, your mannerisms, your words, your speech.

And your examples are perfectly clear. We have a psychological makeup that tends toward uniformity. If we are around someone who says "yada yada" a lot, eventually we say it. It does not make us one flesh with them, although in some ways we might be "one."

Originally Posted by 77150

But the act of sex has far more consequences than fornicators wish to admit. Half of all the DNA in your body does not belong to you. Our Body is a host of a myriad number of organisms. Many of these we could not live without which is why taking antibiotics can have very negative consequences.

I would agree that the sex act is more than many want to admit. As mentioned above, it is more than an act of physical gratification. It is best when pure. They can't explain it away.

But my body has only my DNA. Other organisms that may be within me, from viruses, to the strep that is alway present, to the E coli in our bowels; all the "pro biotics" that people are now trying to drink in, etc., are not our DNA. We may have a need for them, or at least some of them. But that does not make them us. I recently read of studies in which enemas made from small amounts of fecal matter from individuals with desirable characteristics were used to infuse individuals with something lacking that ultimately resulted in a cure for certain kinds of things far beyond irritated bowel syndrome or any other problems with the digestive system. But that does not infer that what was introduced became part of the actual person, just part of the environment in which the person lives. Our environment is more than the air around us. It includes much within us. But it is not us. It can be changed.