Premise

[Peter Debelak]

I must begin by saying I have no experiential standing to challenge John Meyer's thesis. But I do have experiential standing to question and share my thoughts, which themselves openly welcome critique and correction...

I just re-read chapter 10. And my first thought, after reading the opening, is that the premise seems wrong to me.

He begins by framing the entire chapter with an analogy of an outdated machine. A machine. Companies which relied on that machine went bust. Others, who replaced the machine, survived.

In terms of "church," the "company" is a church and the "machine" is the "purpose" or "project" of that church.

John notes that LSM churches are still trying to use a machine that is obsolete. His response/solution?....

"Post-Movement churches must fill in the purpose blank if they want to survive."

"Churches" who recognize the obsolete nature of LSM approach much find a new "machine" if they wish to survive.

Of course, I know John would not put it that way, or want his analogy to be extended that far. Except its not extending the analogy at all, really.

My first thought, after recognizing that the LSM "machine" has puttered is: "should there be a company, machine or not, at all???

John assumes, as part of his premise, that we should approach the LSM failure as groups. The "LSM group" failed and our "group" got out. So how should we, as a "group" go on. That may be the case, in the reality of the situation. But is that what the Lord wants? I cannot say, but to the extent that the answer is not clear, perhaps we should not presume it is what he wants with prescriptions of how to go on.

John's book is for leaders of groups, not for individuals. That begs the question for me... Because it presumes the individuals in the group will stick with the leader until another leader convinces them not to. That's what we saw recently with the quarantine.

What would happen if the new "project" of the "leader" was simply this: teach each "member" to know their spirit. If successful, all things are possible. If the group is, in fact, in the "flow" of the Lord's leading, such a one will be lead to join and will do so with grace and power. If the group "deviates," such a one will have discernment to call it out, or to leave.

What if the new "project" was not about the "direction of the group" or the "purpose of the congregation," but rather the nurturing of each member to know the Lord's voice in their lives, even when that is inconsistent with the "vision" of the group??? Is it even possible that the Lord would lead individuals to do a work outside the work of the congregation? If so, should "leaders" encourage it? If so, how? Shouldn't it be encouraged, if at all, before its the case - rather than "ratifying" it after the fact? If so, what sort of teaching or method should "leaders" take up to encourage the individaul pursuit of the Lord? And again, if we believe in His operation, simply encouraging believers to follow His leading does not mean we aren't encouraging a "group purpose" - except that it will be one out from the Head, rather than one the leaders decided upon.

All that to say: how about this for a new "machine": "follow the Lord in your spirit within the confines of the Word." We all believe it. But do we actually take it on as the only "project" out from which all other "projects" and "purposes" will flow (if they are of Him)??? I mean this question...

Sorry, long ramble. I suppose I got bold and moved from questions to propositions. I still intend this entire ramble as a questions, open to correction. So..... thoughts?

In Love,

Peter

P.S. Upon re-reading my post, I think I didn't make clear (in addition to my central thought), that I don't have any problem whatsoever (and, in fact, apprecation) the message John is speaking. John is obviously not proposing a way forward as a prescription or anti-dote to LSM. He has an intimate experience with a congregation emerging from a very particular and peculiar experience and is point a way forward for that congregation which is refreshing and, from what i know, successful. I am just using his writing as a springboard to ask pressing questions about our, perhaps, unanalyzed premises for going forward. I'm sure John would welcome the pressing (and would probably put me in my place in the process! )

[YP0534]

Just be sure to write the new and improved concept of "Universal Church" down because down the line nothing will frustrate the future revolutionaries more than having a certain articulation that they have to either deal with or explain away.

The writings are also useful for detecting future revolutionaries early on before they cause too much trouble.

PS: Could you link me to what you are talking about? I don't know John Meyers or his thesis.

[Cal]

Peter,

It's interesting that you just re-read John's chapter, because I did, too. I got more out of it the second time.

(By the way, I think for a lot of people John's writings need to be re-read, because his style and means of expression are so different from Witness Lee's that one might miss the gems he has to offer because one is searching for the "riches," if you catch my meaning.)

Anyway, I don't think John is addressing anything as fundamental as how individuals go on with the Lord in this chapter. The focus of his book is how churches survive and find their footing in the wake of leaving LSM's movement. In this particular chapter, John is focusing on mission, that is, that which a church or group is trying to accomplish. The machine in his analogy represents the methods a church or group is employing to carry out the mission. When these tools become obsolete (gospel marches, love feasts, tracts) then new methods need to be discovered.

Because of WN/WL influence, I used to believe that the mission was to build the church. I've since seen that the mission is, as most Christians believe, to disciple the nations. Churches should result and we should be involved in them. But the building of the church, by and large, is the Lord's work. Our work is to gain, disciple and build up believers. When we focus primarily on building the church, we become inwardly focused and neglect the world around us.

The same thing happens when we make being "transformed" or being spiritual our focus; we are constantly checking our spiritual temperature and have very little room or time to be concerned about others. But when we focus on others, and their need to be brought to the Lord and discipled, things start falling into place. Suddenly our spiritual condition is important for the sake of others, not for our "making the kingdom." Usually the result is we experience real growth.

So the real way to grow is to forget about yourself and start taking care of others. Lo and behold, that's the mission.

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Because of WN/WL influence, I used to believe that the mission was to build the church. I've since seen that the mission is, as most Christians believe, to disciple the nations. Churches should result and we should be involved in them. But the building of the church, by and large, is the Lord's work. Our work is to gain, disciple and build up believers. When we focus primarily on building the church, we become inwardly focused and neglect the world around us.

The same thing happens when we make being "transformed" or being spiritual our focus; we are constantly checking our spiritual temperature and have very little room or time to be concerned about others. But when we focus on others, and their need to be brought to the Lord and discipled, things start falling into place. Suddenly our spiritual condition is important for the sake of others, not for our "making the kingdom." Usually the result is we experience real growth.

So the real way to grow is to forget about yourself and start taking care of others. Lo and behold, that's the mission.

Thank you, Igzy. You provide some remarkable insight.

I realized years ago that if we focus on truth and life, we only get deader. If we focus on the gospel for adding to the church ("our" church...), we become shallow. However, when we focus on Christ as our center and the saints as our companions, we are refreshed and the Lord begins to have a way with us.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Igzy

The machine in his analogy represents the methods a church or group is employing to carry out the mission. When these tools become obsolete (gospel marches, love feasts, tracts) then new methods need to be discovered.

Because of WN/WL influence, I used to believe that the mission was to build the church. I've since seen that the mission is, as most Christians believe, to disciple the nations. Churches should result and we should be involved in them. But the building of the church, by and large, is the Lord's work. Our work is to gain, disciple and build up believers. When we focus primarily on building the church, we become inwardly focused and neglect the world around us.

The same thing happens when we make being "transformed" or being spiritual our focus; we are constantly checking our spiritual temperature and have very little room or time to be concerned about others. But when we focus on others, and their need to be brought to the Lord and discipled, things start falling into place. Suddenly our spiritual condition is important for the sake of others, not for our "making the kingdom." Usually the result is we experience real growth.

So the real way to grow is to forget about yourself and start taking care of others. Lo and behold, that's the mission.

Great stuff you brought out here Igzy!

First things first..

I liked the old methods used. Maybe I'm just nostalgic or something..whatever...but many of the 'new' methods have not worked so well. I think we could improve on the old methods ..bring them up to date..but that might ruffle some feathers...I don't know.

As for building the church...I still think there is something to it..but again, it needs tweeking...not throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

We can't build the church by our own strength..or our own power however. I think that is why so much of the LSM/LC has failed. They stopped letting GOD building the church. It became Lee's machine.

Yes..we are to disciple the nations..but too many people imho, are being brought to Christ and then left by the wayside to fend for themselves. That's where I have a problem with the healing and prosperity gospel.

A lot of emphasis is being placed on physical healing..and being financially prosperous through tithes and offerings. UGH!

I'm ALL FOR physical healings! I'm all for being financially prosperous. I'm often reminded of the scripture in Proverbs that tells us 'The wealth of the wicked is stored up for the RIGHTEOUS!' I think it's way overdue for the struggling saints to get their share of wealth to the GLORY OF GOD!

Back to topic.... I've often thought..so what if we are physically healed and then emotionally and spiritually bankrupt?

What good is our physical healing if we have no friends..no where to go..no one to be built up with in Christ..in fellowship? And if we're going to be financially wealthy...we need to learn to be wise stewards and not flaunt it or squander it!

As for transformation...yeah..we don't need to check ourselves. Don't you guys love it when someone you're talking to about anything will stop and notice there is something 'different' about you? And they're drawn to you because of the LORD beaming out of you? Shining and Glowing?

We don't need to focus on being transformed..all we need to focus is on JESUS being the LORD and KING of our lives. The more we Praise and Worship Him with Thanksgiving, our minds are renewed. We think differently..we become more intelligent..for we are getting the Mind of CHRIST..we have the RESURRECTION LIFE working in us. We can't help wanting to pray for one another..to encourage one another..to lift up one another..to share the GOOD NEWS of CHRIST's Salvation and deliverance by His BLOOD with the lost!

Ok...stepping off the pulpit now.

[Cal]

CMW,

Thanks for your reply.

Regarding discipling the nations, to disciple means "to make followers of." So the word implies to convert and to shepherd. It never meant simply to "get saved." If we meet a weak Christian and help him or her back to following the Lord, that's discipling.

As to the "building of the church," I think from our standpoint it mainly means to build up believers. The church really is just the believers.

When a typical LCer stands up in a meeting, waves his fist and proclaims, "We need to build the chuuuuuuurch!" I doubt he is thinking about the believers. I think he has in mind an idealized thing--the "church"--a fuzzy, abstract spiritual entity--that is oddly distinct from the people in the room. Really what his is saying is that he is for an ideal, an idea, not that he is for the people around him.

That's a big, big error, but it's subtle. The church is just the believers. When you say you are building up the church, what you should mean is you are building up Joe and Frank and Mary and Susan and those other Christians you know. There is no church to build up outside of them.

So from our standpoint, building up the church is mainly just building up believers. But it also includes the things we do to make Christian community cohesive. Certainly if we are in a particular church it makes sense to build up that church as a group--to do the things that strengthen the group as a group. However, even that can be taken too far, to where we see the "group" as more important than all the members.

This is the error the LC has made. In their worldview, the church as an idea or ideal is more important than the church itself. Sort of like when Linus told Lucy, "I love mankind. It's people I can't stand."

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Igzy

So from our standpoint, building up the church is mainly just building up believers. But it also includes the things we do to make Christian community cohesive. Certainly if we are in a particular church it makes sense to build up that church as a group--to do the things that strengthen the group as a group. However, even that can be taken too far, to where we see the "group" as more important than all the members.
This is the error the LC has made. In their worldview, the church as an idea or ideal is more important than the church itself. Sort of like when Linus told Lucy, "I love mankind. It's people I can't stand."

You are correct Igzy.

I think many saints in the LC over time became very discouraged because many talked the talk but did not walk the talk.

We were all for the building up of the church..only no one knew how to do it other than meeting at the meeting hall or the home gatherings where we read the life study messages.

Very few people knew how to reach out to one another...to truly BUILD one another in the Faith. When someone was down or troubled we'd tell them...just 'call on the Lord'..oh Lord Jeeeeeesus'. Maybe not everyone behaved that way..but many did.

We read testimony after testimony of the hardships people suffered because they were not one with the ministry.

Don't misunderstand me. Calling on the LORD is awesome. There IS power and Strength and Deliverance in HIS Precious NAME..the Name above all names.

The problem you pointed out with the church..building the group..is very prevailant...not just in the LC but in almost every Christian gathering. I have gone to quite a few Christian fellowship places...some are mega churches.

The pastor is exhaulted to the hilt. That 'church' is like no other. I HATE that mentality!! It is really hard to make good friends in Christ in the church.

Sometimes I get disgusted with the TV preachers or just pastors around here who 'drop names'. At the church I used to attend, there was a wall with pictures of the pastor along side many 'celebrity' pastors.

I often hear pastors/teachers/preachers on TV talk about the other pastors they hang out with.

There is such a spirit of elevation among the hierchy. I don't like it one bit.

I see the 'flock' and they are trying to get close to the 'inner circle' so they can be close to the pastors..and those he/she knows.

It wasn't that bad in the LC as in many of the localities, we really knew our Shepherds..and they knew us...some for better..some for worst.

The biggest problem that is leading to the collapse of the LSM/LC is the 'idolization' of the LSM Lee ministry. God HATES Idolatry. And HE WILL bring down the spirit of Deception and the spirit of Idolatry with the Breath of His Nostrils. He is doing it now. Praise You LORD GOD !!

LORD JESUS...You crush that spirit of idoltry, deception and division ...and do it NOW!

Thank You Lord!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

The biggest problem that is leading to the collapse of the LSM/LC is the 'idolization' of the LSM Lee ministry. God HATES Idolatry. And HE WILL bring down the spirit of Deception and the spirit of Idolatry with the Breath of His Nostrils. He is doing it now. Praise You LORD GOD !!

LORD JESUS...You crush that spirit of idolatry, deception and division ...and do it NOW!

CMW, this conclusion to your lost post is a little ridiculous. Is this your conclusion to Pastors putting their pictures on the church hall walls?

What got you so fired up? These comments seem totally out of character and out of place. I never saw pictures of WL on some hall wall.

This thread was a "premise" related to a book by JM. You have introduced idolatry and unleashed all God's wrath on the LSM. Can I ask what happened to you?

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

What would happen if the new "project" of the "leader" was simply this: teach each "member" to know their spirit. If successful, all things are possible.

Excellent thread starter Peter!

On your first question..teaching people to know their spirit. EXCELLENT proposition.....but let's make sure each of us as leaders know and follow the Voice of God in us..that is the Holy Spirit..in our spirit...before we teach others to know their spirit.

As we read the Word individually and together..and fellowship one with another and have a lot of one on one time with the LORD in our prayer closets so to speak, we will come to know the Spirit indwelling in our spirit and thus we will be able to teach each other.

You brought out some excellent questions to ponder on.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

What if the new "project" was not about the "direction of the group" or the "purpose of the congregation," but rather the nurturing of each member to know the Lord's voice in their lives, even when that is inconsistent with the "vision" of the group??? Is it even possible that the Lord would lead individuals to do a work outside the work of the congregation? If so, should "leaders" encourage it? If so, how? Shouldn't it be encouraged, if at all, before its the case - rather than "ratifying" it after the fact? If so, what sort of teaching or method should "leaders" take up to encourage the individaul pursuit of the Lord? And again, if we believe in His operation, simply encouraging believers to follow His leading does not mean we aren't encouraging a "group purpose" - except that it will be one out from the Head, rather than one the leaders decided upon.

I want to address these questions of Peter's.

I think it is absolutely reasonble to expect that a Christian within a group might get a calling from the Lord that takes him in a direction which the group might not be emphasizing. How else is the Lord going to get things started?

The idea that the elders of a church can veto any burden a believer has is something that is not even considered in most typical churches. It only has any meaning in the LC churches because they've gotten it into their heads that their elders have jurisdiction over the whole city. In more typical churches the leaders generally don't think that highly of themselves. So, for example, if you felt called to begin a particular ministry, most would probably give you some advice, but wouldn't presume to tell you "no." How could they when their jurisdiction stops at the edge of their property line?

Of course, if you want to do something that is going to directly change the way their congregation does things, then they can veto that, and should if they think it's a bad idea. Leaders cannot stop you from serving the Lord the way you feel to outside the congregation, but neither are they obligated to give you a platform within the congregation.

The leaders at the church I meet with are always encouraging us to find new ways to serve the Lord and minister. But this doesn't mean they have to endorse every idea that comes along, just that they don't presume to veto anything. They trust the Lord to lead and to bless what is of Him.