"A House Divided", or "A House with Many Rooms"?

[aron]

A House Divided Cannot Stand

Mark 3:25 “If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.”

I have noted aspects of various personalities and opinions being played out online. When it comes to points of view, and presenting them, I differ from others, as they do from each other.

I am probably to the “left” of brother Ohio in many views. I don’t consider President Obama to be a Muslim terrorist, because I don't see enough facts to come to that conclusion (nor, for the same reason, do I hold President Bush and Cheney to be part of a secret cabal behind the 9/11 attacks. Not enough facts to warrant that). But on the other hand, I am probably to the “right” of Awareness, or at least quite “different”.

I am probably not as logical as OBW, nor as ZNP. I am (being older) probably less likely to shoot from the hip than Mr. Liotta.

In short, I am different from all the posters here. But we are all one, to some degree. We all agree there is a subject worth commenting on, and exploring together (what that subject is, of course, is open to discussion).

I offer these comments as a microcosm, as it were, of the “Christian discussion”. All believers are, of course, different, and unique. But all believers are one. They believe there is One God who loves us and sent His only begotten Son. (Etc – I am not going to try to outline a “universal creed” here).

We are different, but not divided. That is the glory of the one faith. We are unique yet united. We are “one, even as Jesus and the Father are one” because of God’s unique shining glory, given to us in the person of Jesus Christ the Nazarene (cf Jo 17:22), and received by faith. Our faith makes us one.

Eventually, I came to feel that Mr. Nee’s ground of oneness doctrine was yet another divisive idea, pushing confusion into an already confusing landscape of doctrine and ideas. Please see my next post for discussion of this.

[aron]

“In My Father’s House are many Rooms” John 14:2

There are many rooms in the Father’s house. Primarily, I had considered this to be like individual hearts. See the previous verse, verse 1 of John 14. "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.” These dwelling places are within the believers.

See also the parable in Matthew 12.
“When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first.”

The house is arguably a human soul. But the Father’s house is one, and the many sub-dwellings are not just human hearts, but may also represent collective assemblies. What we might call churches. Meetings. Gatherings. As in, “Whenever there are two or three of you in My name, there I will be in the midst of you.” Matthew 18:20.

My point here is that the Father’s house has many sub-units, but still it is one. It is not divided, but rather composed, out of many. My thought is that there are many (different, or separate) assemblies, but because of the (common, or one) faith they are all part of the same Father’s house. Wherever we assemble in the Name of Jesus, we are one with each other, and are also (so I hold) connected in spirit with all those who also believe and receive each other in this one Name.

So Paul could write to one set of believers and tell them to greet the church in someone else’s house, even if that second church was in the same city, because that meeting was part of the Father’s house. (see the greetings in Romans 16, 1 Corinthians 16, and Colossians 4). I am not advocating house churches; I am merely saying that what we call “meetings” and “services” and what we call “churches” were designated by the same word: ecclesia.

So you can have multiple ecclesia in one city, or town, or on one street, or in one peninsula, or on one mountain (etc, etc: see the options in Mr. Seuss' Green Eggs and Ham for further details), yet all these “rooms” are part of the Father’s house.

There are many, but they all are one.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

“In My Father’s House are many Rooms” John 14:2
There are many, but they all are one.

In other words, E pluribus unum ...

We can see early on, before even being called Christians, there was disagreement as to what Jesus meant.

Paul, James, and Peter disagreed. James and his following were practicing Jews. Peter had one foot into the circumcised and one in the uncircumcised, and Paul went to the uncircumcised, or gentiles, who weren't practicing Jews. And then there were the gnostics.

But still, in spirit all these followers of "The Way" were one. And it's been that way ever since. Outwardly Christians aren't ever gonna be one. That's too idealistic, and unrealistic. But inwardly, spiritually, we are all one as Jesus spoke of being one with the Father.

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

Paul, James, and Peter disagreed. James and his following were practicing Jews. Peter had one foot into the circumcised and one in the uncircumcised, and Paul went to the uncircumcised, or gentiles, who weren't practicing Jews. And then there were the gnostics.

But still, in spirit all these followers of "The Way" were one. And it's been that way ever since. Outwardly Christians aren't ever gonna be one. That's too idealistic, and unrealistic. But inwardly, spiritually, we are all one as Jesus spoke of being one with the Father.

This is what I was getting at (the bolded part). The only addendum is that I would say that in spite of our obvious differences we are all slowwwwwly becoming one as Jesus spoke of being one with the Father.

And the variety of experiences which you touched on in the first paragraph (gentiles & Jews of various stripes, mystics & zealots & whatnot) shows the power of the faith. All these seeming differences are subsumed by believing into Jesus the Nazarene.

There are truly many interesting "rooms" in the Father's house! The difference between this amazing display of all the varied grace of God, and "a house divided", is what Ohio alluded to. Do we receive one another? Or cast one another out as being "different"?

That is the acid test.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by aron

I am probably to the “left” of brother Ohio in many views. I don’t consider President Obama to be a Muslim terrorist, because I don't see enough facts to come to that conclusion (nor, for the same reason, do I hold President Bush and Cheney to be part of a secret cabal behind the 9/11 attacks. Not enough facts to warrant that). But on the other hand, I am probably to the “right” of Awareness, or at least quite “different”.

One quick comment. I remember Ohio presenting evidence that Obama is a Muslim. I do not recall any suggestion at all that he was "a Muslim terrorist". Perhaps you could edit that or else point me to the relevant post. Thanks.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

One quick comment. I remember Ohio presenting evidence that Obama is a Muslim. I do not recall any suggestion at all that he was "a Muslim terrorist". Perhaps you could edit that or else point me to the relevant post. Thanks.

Sorry, I tried to do a "search" function but cannot seem to grasp the program. Or maybe Ohio never made that quote.

Sorry for the lack on my part. I was going by memory.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Sorry, I tried to do a "search" function but cannot seem to grasp the program. Or maybe Ohio never made that quote.

Sorry for the lack on my part. I was going by memory.

Search functions don't seem to operate very well after our beloved "Topiq Natzi" pulls out his remote deleter.

For the record I never said or implied that our President was an extremist. I stated a few facts based on an article I read. I can say with certainty, based on others' evaluations, that BHO is perhaps the most liberal leader America has ever had. Some think that's a good thing. Others think he is not liberal enough.

I think it is topics like this that enable us to know other Christians. Sitting around studying LSM books hours on end may appear like "oneness," but does little to actually cement believers together, contrary to popular opinion in the LC's. Sitting in untold meetings together does little to help ones really know each other. Bring up a presidential topic and watch how everyone reacts. Some are "armed" with facts and opinions. Some leave the room. Some could care less. Some would like to hear what's going on. Some are gov't employees, so they really can't get involved. Quite a diversity to say the least.

I recently spent a week vacation with my BIL, who is a liberal by trade. We had a few good conversations. We respect each others' views, so the time becomes valuable, learning how others' view the same events. We even had an "interesting" conversation about Sarah Palin and Christine O'Donnell.

Whether we are a "house divided" or a "house of many rooms," often depends simply on love. Do we love our views more than those who hold differing views. Sometimes that is real difficult, but it is something that should be remembered every time we "break bread" and remember the Lord.

[awareness]

That was both insightful and generous bro Ohio. Thanks for the reminder of love ... even considering that of differing political views. Now that's truly a Christian view.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Some are gov't employees, so they really can't get involved.

As a government employee and a teacher I noted with interest (and alarm) that a new law in MO would make it illegal for a teacher to contact a student or past student on a social media site. Although you could see many obvious reasons for such a law, think of what a bind that would put the teacher in.

For example, is this forum a "social media site"? Likewise, how do you stop someone from seeking you out on Facebook, etc. So as a teacher you have to be extremely vigilant, careful, prudent, use aliases to prevent students from finding you, and then if in doubt, delete.

You also have to be very careful about what you say. I have lots of strong opinions about education, no doubt these would offend some, especially if they make a living from Govt contracts.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Search functions don't seem to operate very well after our beloved "Topiq Natzi" pulls out his remote deleter.

For zee rrrrecord zee "search funtions" are NOT effected whatzoeverrr by da deletion of oft topiq posts or da deletion of flaming

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

For zee rrrrecord zee "search funtions" are NOT effected whatzoeverrr by da deletion of oft topiq posts or da deletion of flaming

But what about the word s-o-c-i-a-l-i-s-m? and all the asterisk replacement of characters in the word?....

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I never said or implied that our President was an extremist. I stated a few facts based on an article I read. I can say with certainty, based on others' evaluations, that BHO is perhaps the most liberal leader America has ever had.

I probably mischaracterized your statement. I think, in hindsight, that you wrote the phrase "If Obama is a Muslim born in Kenya..." and didn't rebut it, so I assumed you agreed. And the citation you provided was, to me, less than compelling.

But I had the same problem with the ultra-liberal/libertarian "Bush & Cheney 9/11 conspiracy" theories I saw. No compelling evidence and LOTS of hearsay and speculation.

So I guess I'm somewhere in the vast, muddled, middle.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I think it is topics like this that enable us to know other Christians. Sitting around studying LSM books hours on end may appear like "oneness," but does little to actually cement believers together, contrary to popular opinion in the LC's.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sitting in untold meetings together does little to help ones really know each other. Bring up a presidential topic and watch how everyone reacts. Some are "armed" with facts and opinions. Some leave the room. Some could care less. Some would like to hear what's going on. Some are gov't employees, so they really can't get involved. Quite a diversity to say the least.

Most church meetings I go to are either waaaay conservative or waaaaay liberal (and I consider myself a liberal!) so I just nod & smile and give them boilerplate. "Jesus is Lord! Amen!"

Kind of sad, but "it is what it is".

Originally Posted by Ohio

Whether we are a "house divided" or a "house of many rooms," often depends simply on love. Do we love our views more than those who hold differing views. Sometimes that is real difficult, but it is something that should be remembered every time we "break bread" and remember the Lord.

Yes! This is exactly what I was getting at! Do we receive one another, based on our mutual love of God, or do we find differences and collapse into squabbles?

The ground of oneness doctrine did nothing that I can see to resolve this dilemma. It just became yet another wedge to drive christians apart.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Most church meetings I go to are either waaaay conservative or waaaaay liberal (and I consider myself a liberal!) so I just nod & smile and give them boilerplate. "Jesus is Lord! Amen!"

I like Winston Churchill's comment here .... "If you are young, and not a liberal, you don't have a heart. If you are old, and are not a conservative, you don't have a brain."

Yes! This is exactly what I was getting at! Do we receive one another, based on our mutual love of God, or do we find differences and collapse into squabbles?

The ground of oneness doctrine did nothing that I can see to resolve this dilemma. It just became yet another wedge to drive christians apart.

This is one of the Recovery's greatest contradictions.

Many years ago I was more idealistic and received "the ground of oneness" as a way to keep the oneness, and to be saved from all our differences. Eventually, I forsook "the ground of oneness" as one of the most divisive factors of all, because it was really based on whether we were "one with Anaheim" or not.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Whether we are a "house divided" or a "house of many rooms," often depends simply on love. Do we love our views more than those who hold differing views.

Just wanted to give a shout out to a wise comment. One nice thing about being in a conversation is that you don't have to say anything intelligent. You just have to patiently wait around until someone else does. Voila! An intelligent conversation occurs!

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by aron

I am probably not as logical as OBW, nor as ZNP. I am (being older) probably less likely to shoot from the hip than Mr. Liotta.

In short, I am different from all the posters here. But we are all one, to some degree. We all agree there is a subject worth commenting on, and exploring together (what that subject is, of course, is open to discussion).

So does that make you a house of a different color?

P.S. That's my hip talking...

[aron]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

So does that make you a house of a different color?

P.S. That's my hip talking...

A house of a decidedly different color. But of what color, is yet to be determined.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

Eventually, I came to feel that Mr. Nee’s ground of oneness doctrine was yet another divisive idea, pushing confusion into an already confusing landscape of doctrine and ideas. Please see my next post for discussion of this.

Something I have considered is many in the local churches came out of other denominations, sects, etc. Watchman Nee was no different. He came out of the Exclusive Brethren where he was excommunicated. Some of the EB teachings he kept and promoted. Just as the local churches has their vision, the EB has "seeing the one place". Just as the ground of oneness was promoted by WN and WL, so do the Exclusive brethren and Open Brethren.

In The Practical Expression of the Church, Witness Lee spoke of being general. One point in particular being general when it came to baptism. Not emphasizing how; sprinkling or immersion. Of course those in the local churches who came out of baptist backgrounds, baptism by sprinkling would be a bitter pill to take.

Another point what about those that came out of the JW? I'm sure there's practices for the JW that got carried over into the LC.

My point being the Christian backgrounds many have had were shaped by these varying backgrounds. Just as mine was based on the local churches, that's were my orientation is.