Evil Books

[Indiana]

The Problems Causing the Turmoils in the Church Life

This book, The Problems Causing the Turmoils in the Church Life, is composed of personal fellowship given by Brother Witness Lee to the elders in Canada on August 13-15, 1993 in Anaheim, California. - Preface

It joins the first three books of fiction and evil-speaking, A Response to Recent Accusations, The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion, and An Affirmation of the Proper Authority in the Body of Christ, by RK, WL, and AY, respectively.

This publication occurred three years after WL's messages that comprise the The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion. Elders who listened to this continued, and intensified, rhetoric on rebellion and conspiracy became increasingly entrenched in the lies which are disseminated in their LSM-churches today.

Excerpts
Whenever there has been a turmoil, we have learned to be simple by staying with the tree of life and staying away from anything related to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. p. 8

The recent turmoil rose up mainly to put me down. Certain ones decided not only to put me down but also to put me out. Now they are endeavoring to preach their kind of doctrine to accomplish this. They did much in this turmoil, but I did not do anything. From the beginning Brother Nee and I have learned the lesson not to take care of these negative things. p. 8

This shows that our suffering is no different than what the Lord Jesus suffered and what the apostles suffered, especially Paul. p. 9

We need to realize that through all of the degradation and chaotic situations, the church is benefited. p. 9

The situation with Judas was under God’s sovereignty to help Him accomplish His economy. In the same way, through the recent turmoil we have been disciplined, educated, and corrected, and many have been tested, stabilized, and established for the furtherance of God’s move in His economy. p. 10

I have been speaking for over half a century, and I have passed through many troubles, but I have never changed my vision. Certain ones spread a lie that Witness Lee was all right up to 1984, but from that time Witness Lee changed and his change affected the nature of the recovery. So these ones desired to be the “heroes” to rescue the recovery out of Witness Lee’s change. p. 10

In these days we have to be for the Lord’s interest by taking care of the Lord and taking care of His Body to discern the real situation.

It was not an easy thing for me to publish the book entitled The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion. I considered very much before the Lord whether or not I should release the facts of the rebellious turmoil stirred up by certain ones. Many of the things that were a mystery to the saints. According to my discernment in the Lord, I eventually felt burdened to let the saints know. I documented every point in that book by writings and by verbal testimonies.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Indiana

From the beginning Brother Nee and I have learned the lesson not to take care of these negative things. p. 8

So Lee drags Nee into his propensity to deny the carnage left behind Lee's wake of lies and deception.

How nifty that Lee can cause turmoil and then shift the blame to others by accusing them of following the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That way Lee is not held accountable for what he causes.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Indiana

The Problems Causing the Turmoils in the Church Life

This book, The Problems Causing the Turmoils in the Church Life, is composed of personal fellowship given by Brother Witness Lee to the elders in Canada on August 13-15, 1993 in Anaheim, California. - Preface

LSM's vast free online library includes this classic work --

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.c...=B98JTGDRV5BJS

THE PROBLEM OF AMBITION

Those who took the lead in the recent turmoil did not care for the Body. They also misunderstood us. Such misunderstanding comes mostly from ambition. If a person did not have any ambition in a certain matter, he would not have any misunderstanding. If a person desires to gain something for himself and does not get it, he may feel that he has been mistreated. Actually, he was not mistreated by others, but was misled by his own ambition. The problem here is the desire to achieve something for themselves.

The above quote is from the conclusion. The segment in red is the standard "explanation" of why brothers have been rebelling against WL and the Blendeds for decades.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

LSM's vast free online library includes this classic work --

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.c...=B98JTGDRV5BJS

Again we get :

"Downloading this material, even for personal use, is prohibited.
Your IP address is 173.30.59.107 [14:44:47 (GMT -08:00), August 28, 2011]."

Originally Posted by Witness Lee

If a person desires to gain something for himself and does not get it, he may feel that he has been mistreated. Actually, he was not mistreated by others, but was misled by his own ambition. The problem here is the desire to achieve something for themselves.

There are three fingers pointing back at Lee and family ... as ye judge....

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Again we get :

"Downloading this material, even for personal use, is prohibited.
Your IP address is 173.30.59.107 [14:44:47 (GMT -08:00), August 28, 2011]."

I assume this is to intimidate.

How can it be downloaded, besides cut and paste?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I assume this is to intimidate.

How can it be downloaded, besides cut and paste?

They certainly don't seem to want their material to reach the world .. else they wouldn't care if anyone sent it everywhere.

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by awareness

They certainly don't seem to want their material to reach the world .. else they wouldn't care if anyone sent it everywhere.

And so they have learned...as stated in the opening post.

"Control"
by mis-information.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Indiana

The situation with Judas was under God’s sovereignty to help Him accomplish His economy. In the same way, through the recent turmoil we have been disciplined, educated, and corrected, and many have been tested, stabilized, and established for the furtherance of God’s move in His economy. p. 10

Likening John Ingalls and other former leaders to Judas, who betrayed the Lord before his crucifixion, is especially obnoxious. Probably the two most notable traitors in history are Judas and Benedict Arnold. Just to label a person a "Judas" or a "Benedict Arnold," is to evoke all sorts of images of the worst kind.

There is no way that the facts of history allow us to believe that WL was somehow fooled by ambitious, power-grabbing "Blendeds" into believing twisted distortions about John Ingalls and others. This is the line of reasoning by many GLA brothers who just cannot accept (or care to know) the facts. They know John Ingalls and others could never have done what they were accused of, and yet they also have to relieve WL of all culpability, based on their illusions of him as an Apostle and MOTA.

[zeek]

My answers to Mr. Lee

Whenever there has been a turmoil, we have learned to be simple by staying with the tree of life and staying away from anything related to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. p. 8

So ethics and morality are out the window. Got it.

The recent turmoil rose up mainly to put me down. Certain ones decided not only to put me down but also to put me out. Now they are endeavoring to preach their kind of doctrine to accomplish this. They did much in this turmoil, but I did not do anything. From the beginning Brother Nee and I have learned the lesson not to take care of these negative things. p. 8

Rather self-referential aren't we? Since we are "staying away from anything related to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" than "negative" either must not mean "evil" or you are contradicting yourself.

This shows that our suffering is no different than what the Lord Jesus suffered and what the apostles suffered, especially Paul. p. 9

It is a gross exaggeration to compare being criticized to being tortured and literally crucified as Jesus was. If you really said these things Mr. Lee I marvel that I could ever have listened to you.

We need to realize that through all of the degradation and chaotic situations, the church is benefited. p. 9

Positive thinking. OK

The situation with Judas was under God’s sovereignty to help Him accomplish His economy. In the same way, through the recent turmoil we have been disciplined, educated, and corrected, and many have been tested, stabilized, and established for the furtherance of God’s move in His economy. p. 10

Again comparing criticism with traitorism is an exaggeration.

I have been speaking for over half a century, and I have passed through many troubles, but I have never changed my vision. Certain ones spread a lie that Witness Lee was all right up to 1984, but from that time Witness Lee changed and his change affected the nature of the recovery. So these ones desired to be the “heroes” to rescue the recovery out of Witness Lee’s change. p. 10

Or maybe they just disagreed with you and left as a matter of conscience.

In these days we have to be for the Lord’s interest by taking care of the Lord and taking care of His Body to discern the real situation.

Except that your group has become quite sectarian in the process.

It was not an easy thing for me to publish the book entitled The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion. I considered very much before the Lord whether or not I should release the facts of the rebellious turmoil stirred up by certain ones. Many of the things that were a mystery to the saints. According to my discernment in the Lord, I eventually felt burdened to let the saints know. I documented every point in that book by writings and by verbal testimonies.

Anyone who disagrees with your authority is in rebellion because you are the autocratic head of the sect. Unfortunately that supersedes and contradicts your own principles of unity.

[Indiana]

WITNESS LEE: In Feb 1986 I called an urgent elders’ training in which I stressed the one accord, and I made my teaching very clear. I said that being in the army is different from being a citizen. Not everyone in a country is in the army. Gideon eventually only had 300 who became his army (Judg. 7:7). I went to Taipei in 1984 because I was burdened for an army to be raised up who would practice the God-ordained way, but I did not have the intention or the expectation for all the saints in the recovery to be the same.

Really?

Again, not telling the whole story.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Indiana

WITNESS LEE: In Feb 1986 I called an urgent elders’ training in which I stressed the one accord, and I made my teaching very clear. I said that being in the army is different from being a citizen. Not everyone in a country is in the army. Gideon eventually only had 300 who became his army (Judg. 7:7). I went to Taipei in 1984 because I was burdened for an army to be raised up who would practice the God-ordained way, but I did not have the intention or the expectation for all the saints in the recovery to be the same.

Really?!

Again, not telling the whole story.

WL claims he had no intention or expectancy that all the saints be the same. He also claims that what he meant by one accord was misunderstood by some (p. 4, The Problems Causing Turmoil 1993).

Actually, the steps he took and the impression he gave in his speaking early on in the new way gave every indication that he wanted the churches and saints to be the same. And, they could begin by getting rid of the one-man speaking concept in all the localities and come under his universal leadership and blue print he set forth for the churches to follow.

One of many examples to give about his pursuit to produce cookie-cutter churches and saints was shown in Elders’ Training Book 7. It is not that people misunderstood what he said about the one accord and being the same, it is in print.

"If you expect to have one accord in any kind of society, group, or movement, you need the same kind of thinking that comes out of the same kind of knowledge. The Soc***ist party stresses soc***ism. Any political party has its own “ism”. They stress their “ism” in order to have a party, to have what we call the one accord. Without the one accord, no party could accomplish anything. Any society, group, or movement needs this one accord that comes out of the same kind of thought, the same kind of knowledge” (One Accord For The Lord’s Move, W. L., pp. 97, 99-100).

And, at an important juncture his intention and expectation was reflected in a letter of agreement drawn up by two close listeners to the heart of brother Lee during intense elders’ training meetings held in Feb 1986.


Dear Brother Lee:

After hearing your fellowship in this elders’ training, we all agree to have a new start in the Lord's recovery. For this, we all agree to be in one accord and to carry out this new move of the Lord solely through prayer, the Spirit, and the Word. We further agree to practice the recovery one in: teaching, practice, thinking, speaking, essence, appearance, and expression. We repudiate all differences among the churches, and all indifference toward the ministry, the ministry office, and the other churches. We agree that the church in our place be identical with all the local churches throughout the earth. We also agree to follow your leading as the one who has brought us God's New Testament economy and has led us into its practice. We agree that this leading is indispensable to our oneness and acknowledge the one trumpet in the Lord's ministry and the one wise master builder among us…." - (1986 letter of agreement by 400+ brothers)


One accord, as in a political movement, was encouraged as was the elders’ handing the reins of leadership over to a universal leader for his planned and orchestrated movement. He would lead the churches and do so by his ministry, that is, “by the apostles’ teaching”, as he put it. Here is a paradox: Oneness with the ministry was gained at the price of division in the church. For some to “sail on” in one accord was to provide the fertile bed of discord among the rest -- the believers, the members of the Body of Christ meeting as the church in their locality”.


The work and the church were being mixed during the late eighties turmoil, and much damage occurred in the recovery. It was not until this point that brother Lee was prompted to give the following word of generality to all the elders and co-workers. This was a pivotal time in local church history. Although his words had changed, the tone and direction of the churches had been set and the minds had galvanized among leaders according to their new way training under Witness Lee.

He shared,

"As long as you do not do anything against our New Testament constitution, no one will bother you. Among us in the Lord’s recovery, there is nothing worth worrying about because basically we do not have any heresy or any kind of organizational control. Everyone in every church has the full freedom to go on. I hope that we would be so faithful and loyal to the Lord’s recovery. We should mean business with the Lord that the Lord’s recovery will be prevailing and even flourishing on this earth for the Lord’s purpose.

Concerning practices among us, such as head covering, baptism, or preaching the gospel, we should let these things be as they are among the saints. If some of the sisters want to wear a head covering, let them do it. If others do not, give them the liberty. We should have this attitude with all the practices in the church life that are outside our common faith. If some feel that they are burdened to visit people for the gospel, let them do it. Those saints who are burdened to visit people for the gospel should not insist on this practice. We should try to avoid different kinds of terms, slogans, and sayings, and try to do our best to keep the oneness in the Lord’s recovery. We must avoid anything that damages the freedom of the saints or the oneness of the Body of Christ.

It is altogether wise and profitable that we do not expect all the churches to be the same. This is impossible. Even twelve brothers within a local church cannot be the same in everything…."


John Ingalls on Pivotal Elders’ Training Fellowship
During the Summer Training in Anaheim in July 1988

"In his second message of the elders’ meetings, Brother Lee spoke concerning our going on. After all our sessions and hours of fellowship with Brother Lee, we had hoped that he would take steps to clear up a number of things publicly. This was surely an excellent opportunity, a perfect forum, and an appropriate time. He did give a few principles for our going on which would be helpful if practiced. He did say, "It is altogether wise and profitable that we do not expect all the churches to be the same," and, "Do not talk about who is for this or who is for that…We should not label ourselves or label others." We were thankful to hear these comments and urgings. But we were deeply disappointed that he did not go much further. What he should have cleared up he covered up, e.g., problems regarding the LSM office and the FTTT training in Taipei. We hoped he would have repented for some things that had caused many problems, not just for allowing saints from the U.S. to attend the training in Taiwan. We surely would have respected him had he done this, and the situation could have been altogether different than it turned out.

"the close of Brother Lee’s second message, Dick Taylor (of Long Beach) and Frank Scavo (of Irvine) asked questions which Brother Lee attempted to answer. Dick’s question was quite appropriate and fit our situation. It was as follows: 'Many times you reach a point in your experience where you have genuine concerns. How can you fellowship about these concerns without being considered as negative and thereby causing another problem? This is a concern to me and this is related to the freedom of seeking the Lord and the truth.' In Brother Lee’s response he said that if you have a genuine concern for anyone in regard to the Lord’s recovery you should go to him alone without talking to anyone else. Any "pre-talk", he said, opens the door for the devil to come in. Now this may be true in many cases, but in our history of contacting Brother Lee over our concerns we felt we could not and should not do that. Since the issues were so momentous we needed fellowship for a clearer understanding and preparation for visiting him. In fact, Brother Lee and brothers around him have also had a lot of consultation among themselves regarding concerns for other brothers before going to them. I know because I myself participated in such discussions.

"Brother Lee’s attitude while speaking was gentle and persuasive; he was seeking in this way to reconcile all the brothers and to set a course that would calm any fears or anxieties and eliminate any problems. Many were very happy with his fellowship; I was not at all happy or at peace.

"During these elders’ meetings I sat next to an elder who had spoken with me a few times previously and was very sympathetic with our concerns, having much the same concerns himself. We agreed to meet together for some fellowship that evening over dinner. This we did, and as we ate we conversed about Brother Lee’s messages that day and their impact on the situation in general. The brother felt happy and said to me, "John, I think this is the best we can expect from Brother Lee. Be thankful." I tried to be; I tried to take his view. But in the depths of my being there was a nagging disappointment. Nothing had been dealt with. No wrongs had been righted. The root was not touched. The question loomed before us, What shall we do now? I knew I had to be true to my conscience and the truth I had seen."

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Witness Lee via Indiana

"If you expect to have one accord in any kind of society, group, or movement, you need the same kind of thinking that comes out of the same kind of knowledge. The So******t party stresses soc******m. Any political party has its own “ism”. They stress their “ism” in order to have a party, to have what we call the one accord. Without the one accord, no party could accomplish anything. Any society, group, or movement needs this one accord that comes out of the same kind of thought, the same kind of knowledge” (One Accord For The Lord’s Move, W. L., pp. 97, 99-100).

Witness is right here. It's like Walmart and the Walmart chant. Walmart expects all of their associates to be of one mind.

More proof that Witness Lee's movement was/is a franchise corporation ... Headquarters located at : Living Stream Ministry.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Indiana

I tried to be; I tried to take his view. But in the depths of my being there was a nagging disappointment. Nothing had been dealt with. No wrongs had been righted. The root was not touched. The question loomed before us, What shall we do now? I knew I had to be true to my conscience and the truth I had seen."

This has been my experience...trying to go on positively. Just as this brother shared, "I tried to take this view." How could I had gone positively while double-standards was permeating the ministry? Double standard being no forum to speak a loving word towards the brothers who left, while at least the locality I was in took for a number of weeks a Holy Word for Morning Revival on the Rebellious Ones. I took this as an attack via innuendo towards brothers who had left in 1990.
"What shall we do know?" Difficult question. I wanted to be one with all Christian in my city..including those who meet with the local churches. Nearly my entire existence as a Christian and as human being was through the local church movement. The next question was where do I go? There's no right answer to be given. It is between God and yourself. Just as the brother had stated, "I knew I had to be true to my conscience and the truth I had seen."

[Indiana]

WITNESS LEE: "I said that being in the army is different from being a citizen. Not everyone in a country is in the army. Gideon eventually only had 300 who became his army (Judg. 7:7). I went to Taipei in 1984 because I was burdened for an army to be raised up who would practice the God-ordained way, but I did not have the intention or the expectation for all the saints in the recovery to be the same". (p. 11, The Problems Causing the Turmoils)

Ironically, WL's book called The Problems Causing the Turmoils in the Church Life did not talk about the real problems causing turmoil, and thus missed the mark. The problems causing the turmoils essentially came from the plan and the execution to make all the churches and the saints the same.


In the Wake of the New Way excerpt (2000, written 11 years ago)

Genuine Oneness Not Pursued
"Although brother Lee called for the respect to be given those saints or churches not taking the new way, I do not know where that was done, how that was done, or if it was done. The atmosphere that was created was not conducive for a genuine acceptance of non-cooperating churches and members and I don't know how such acceptance could have been possible. For instance, in a meeting in Taipei I attended in October 1987, brother Lee ended his message abruptly, pounding his fist on the table once, and pronouncing emphatically that anyone who didn’t take the new way was foolish, and then he sat down. This was not a demonstration of acceptance.

"Another word he gave was to the elders: 'Now you know where I am and where you should be. Also, you know what all of us should do -- go to fight as an army and in the army. Who are the us? Those that are in the army fighting for this ministry.' (Eldrs Trng, Book 7, One Accord for the Lord's New Move)

"This wasn’t a word of comfort or peace to those brothers or churches not in the army. Brother Lee had a vision and he had a goal, and the atmosphere in the recovery did not allow for a comfortable divergence from his objectives.

"This was the spirit of the new way, a spirit very much of power, but not love. It was obtrusive in its pursuit for the one accord, while failing to consider, care for, or accommodate those strewn in its wake. The modus operandi of the new way violated the genuine oneness of the Body with all its precious members".

Link to In the Wake of the New Way

http://www.makingstraightthewayofthe...ftheNewWay.pdf

[OBW]

While I never actually read the book The Problems Causing the Turmoils in the Church Life I do recall a series of messages given in Irving, I think at least in part by Benson. This was within a year or so of our leaving.

At the time I was struck by the fact that the words said there were citizens and soldiers, but outside of those messages, only the soldiers were truly acknowledged as existing. Every other message somehow made it all about being a soldier or being deficient. And the atmosphere was that if you were not a soldier you weren't just a citizen, you were a second-class citizen.

Of course the "soldiering" in Irving was mostly involvement in the message preparation and printing. Not entirely like Anaheim. But I could attest that there was a marked separation of people between LSM volunteers and others just like the difference between those regularly engaged in the New Way and those not so engaged in Anaheim. I have to assume that the only thing that caused Anaheim to blow up the way it did was the added problems of a similar usurping of people for the LSM (like in Irving) and the problems with Phillip Lee that were becoming somewhat openly known there. It's a wonder that more churches did not implode in the manner that Anaheim did.

[ZNPaaneah]

Talk about implosion. I visited Irving in the 90s and was shocked by how few people were in the meeting. Their number was similar to what Odessa had been like when I left Odessa. The only difference is, if you have 140 people in a meeting hall designed to hold 2000 it really emphasizes how small it is. (If I recall correctly the meeting I was in had less than 140).

NYC did something right with their meeting hall. They have these partitions that divide the hall into 4 rooms. The biggest of these four is used for the Lord's day meeting and looks full. But during a conference they can easily double or even triple the size of the meeting hall.

[Indiana]

Book of Evil-Speaking #5
Elders Training Book 10


To assert that this is now the fifth book of evil-speaking from the press at LSM is not an exaggeration. They produce the books; I report them. Young people especially need to learn how not to speak; and thus stay away from lies and mere party-line agenda in the Local Churches.

The content of Elders’ Training, Book 10, like the four books of evil-speaking before it, deals falsely with the late 80s turmoil in messages given in 1989-1991. It joins the first four books of fiction and evil-speaking -

A Response to Recent Accusations, RK

The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion, WL

An Affirmation of the Proper Authority in the Body of Christ AY

The Problems Causing Turmoil WL

http://www.UnfaithfulWitness.org/Ano...lSpeaking5.pdf

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Book of Evil-Speaking #5
Elders Training Book 10
To assert that this is now the fifth book of evil-speaking from the press at LSM is not an exaggeration. They produce the books; I report them. Young people especially need to learn how not to speak; and thus stay away from lies and mere party-line agenda in the Local Churches.

The content of Elders’ Training, Book 10, like the four books of evil-speaking before it, deals falsely with the late 80s turmoil in messages given in 1989-1991. It joins the first four books of fiction and evil-speaking -

A Response to Recent Accusations, RK
The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion, WL
An Affirmation of the Proper Authority in the Body of Christ AY
The Problems Causing Turmoil WL
http://www.UnfaithfulWitness.org/Ano...lSpeaking5.pdf

Indiana, there are two trees but only one is made manifest through these publications.
If you embrace the content of these texts, the speaking is innoculating.

I however have found the speaking in these books to be cancerous and from the tree of knowledge.

[Indiana]

"Furthermore, we have to realize who has the function and qualification as the priest to discern leprosy among the Lord's children." - WL. 1993

Brother Lee felt that he alone could discern leprosy in the Body. The truth is that he could not even discern his own condition and that of his son, Philip, who was fully unqualified to be in and among the saints directing and instructing elders and young people, corrupting them, as well as LSM staff sisters.

Excerpts from Problems Causing Turmoil

Witness Lee: "When we accept someone at the Lord's table, we have to consider the Body. According to the practice of Rom. 14, we accept all of the Lord's children, but according to Rom. 16:17 we have to mark those who make divisions, and turn away from them. We cannot receive division-makers who have been quarantined by the Body. Furthermore, we have to realize who has the function and qualification as the priest to discern leprosy among the Lord's children. Again, this is a matter of practicing the Body life. If a local church receives someone who has offended the Body to the uttermost, that local church is obviously not going along with and not one with the Body. We have to take care of the Body.

...But receiving a person who has made trouble in the recovery and who is still making trouble involves the Body very much. If we behave ourselves properly, we are okay in the Body. But if we commit something that is condemned by the New Testament, the Body has the right to say something. The Body will check with a local church if there is a division-maker among them whom they have not disciplined. If they do not discipline such a one, they are wrong and offending the Body.

To know the Body is the proper recovery of the Lord. If we are for the recovery, we need to realize what the recovery is.The Lord desires to recover the missed Body of Christ and to recover the neglected oneness of the Body of Christ. This is the Lord's recovery."

Brother Lee's discernment of leprosy was so far off that he considered John Ingalls such a leper but not his own son.

When Philip was finally removed from his position at LSM and excommunicated in the church, WL took him to a Lord's table meeting at another LC, the church in Cypress. Did he respect the feeling of the Body and the churches then?

He also had no discernment of the divisive activities of Benson Phillips, Ray Graver, and Andrew Yu, among others.

[Indiana]

B. Lee reiterates toward the end of the book what he said earlier about respecting the opinion of “the Body”, referring to the Local Churches who quarantined four LC leaders in 1990.


from Problems Causing Turmoils – 1993

WITNESS LEE: “Regardless of how much we have received from a certain one in the past, if he does something that offends the Body, we must practice the truth. We must know the Body and trust in the Body. The churches in CA wrote an open letter because they felt burdened and were held responsible to let the churches on this globe know the damage certain ones did in California and the loss which they had suffered. In this open letter they said that they had made the decision to quarantine these ones. Should we listen to the churches or take care of our own personal observation of the situation? If we put the notification of so many churches aside and go to investigate the situation for ourselves, this is an offending to the Body. Do we respect the Body or do we respect ourselves?

"It is not a matter of whether someone is right or wrong. He might be right, but still he offended the Body. We need to see the Body. What the Lord wants is the Body….”

The Problem of Ambition
Those who took the lead in the recent turmoil did not care for the Body. They also misunderstood us. Such misunderstanding comes mostly from ambition. If a person did not have any ambition in a certain matter, he would not have any misunderstanding. If a person desires to gain something for himself and does not get it, he may feel that he has been mistreated. Actually, he was not mistreated by others, but was misled by his own ambition. The problem here is the desire to achieve something for themselves.


See www.twoturmoils.com


We must speak the truth; we must not let lies prevail; we should not let evil-speaking triumph, “no matter how much we have received from a certain one in the past”.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Indiana

"It is not a matter of whether someone is right or wrong. He might be right, but still he offended the Body. We need to see the Body. What the Lord wants is the Body….”

The Problem of Ambition
Those who took the lead in the recent turmoil did not care for the Body. They also misunderstood us. Such misunderstanding comes mostly from ambition. If a person did not have any ambition in a certain matter, he would not have any misunderstanding. If a person desires to gain something for himself and does not get it, he may feel that he has been mistreated. Actually, he was not mistreated by others, but was misled by his own ambition. The problem here is the desire to achieve something for themselves.

Offended whom? Does offending a minority of brothers constitute offending the Body? Reading this quote with historical context, that is what it amounts to. The Body is not representative, thus you cannot say only a select few are qualified to discern the feeling of the Body. That my brothers and sisters is to go beyond your measure.
We know in part what the quote was referring to as what "offended the Body". The 18 points from 8/28/88. Never knew of these point existence until the last 5-10 years. Personally I was helped by these points and was not offended in the least.

Talking about ambition. There are different types of ambition. It's one thing for a brother to try to gain a following. Did the quarantined brothers try to do that? No. They gravitated towards saints who would receive them.
If they are guilty of any ambition and myself included, it is to be treated with dignity. Who wants to be shunned? Who wants the ability for mutual communication cut off? This is considered a "misunderstanding"? Unless there is communication, there is no way to clear any misunderstandings.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Indiana

"Furthermore, we have to realize who has the function and qualification as the priest to discern leprosy among the Lord's children." - WL. 1993

Let me see if I can understand this allegory. According to WL he is comparing JI and others to those with leprosy. The reason they are considered "leprous" is because they tried to protect the saints in the church that they were elders from a lecherous man, who happened to be WL's son.

According to this analogy it was the OT priesthood that was responsible to deal with leprosy. According to Peter, the saints in the NT are "a royal priesthood". So when WL says "we have to realize who has the function and qualification as the priest to discern leprosy among the Lord's children" is he referring to the saints in the church? Is he referring to us? Because if he isn't it sounds like he is promoting a clergy laity system which, in my opinion, would be extremely hypocritical for a person that disparaged the clergy laity as much as he did.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

According to this analogy it was the OT priesthood that was responsible to deal with leprosy. According to Peter, the saints in the NT are "a royal priesthood". So when WL says "we have to realize who has the function and qualification as the priest to discern leprosy among the Lord's children" is he referring to the saints in the church? Is he referring to us? Because if he isn't it sounds like he is promoting a clergy laity system which, in my opinion, would be extremely hypocritical for a person that disparaged the clergy laity as much as he did.

Solid points ZNP. Moreover I think brother Lee wanted to limit the scope of who is qualified to discern leprosy. Specifically those who expressed loyalty to his ministry. Brothers who were no longer absolute for his ministry were disqualified in his mind for the sake of his work and for the sake of his son's reputation.
How dare anyone think it's his co-workers or his son as the office manager who were the leprous ones.