Elvis has left the building

[aron]

I know that I am in a minority on this, even among ex-LCers, but it seems to me that the "New Testament basis" for our collective assembling and testimony might have included practices which are not really helpful.

I remember how Ezekiel chapter 10 describes God's glory departing from the temple. They still had the building and the practices, but God was no longer interested in participating.

Likewise, to me, the epistles to the messengers of the seven asian assemblies in Revelation chapters 2 and 3 indicate to me that the "NT basis" for our collective testimony isn't mayhaps what we think it was. You know, remember those books like "how to meet" and "the practice of the elders and co-workers", etc.

Maybe they were building with a failed model. Maybe Nee's "Normal christian church life" wasn't really what God wanted.

Maybe those seven asian assemblies were kind of like a representative sample for the whole body to consider. Certainly there is a universal character to the writing.

1:1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

So here is John, who as a young man had seen John the Baptist contend in the desert with the "brood of vipers" coming out of Jerusalem, then Jesus likewise struggling with the religious ones, then at the end of his life, from Patmos, John sees the same pattern repeating itself. Form without substance. The Glory of God is leaving.

So if we obsess over the form (the ground of the church, how many elders, who (if anyone) is the apostle, etc etc), without realizing we are building with a failed model.

On a positive note, we have Dorcas making shirts for the elderly sisters, we have John and James and Peter reminding Paul to "remember the poor", which Paul says he is eager to do, we have Philip going down the south road out of Jerusalem and finding an Ethiopian reading Isaiah, etc.

There are indeed a lot of good examples. But just because something happened in the NT doesn't mean we need to try to slavishly imitate it. The only things I can see to slavishly imitate is to love God, love our neighbor, try to follow the Spirit. Forgive one another as God has forgiven us.

The organizational stuff is a waste of time. It is no wonder to me that the "NT template" which Nee and Lee tried to build with has been accompanied by unrelieved turmoil.

[zeek]

There are indeed a lot of good examples. But just because something happened in the NT doesn't mean we need to try to slavishly imitate it. The only things I can see to slavishly imitate is to love God, love our neighbor, try to follow the Spirit. Forgive one another as God has forgiven us.

The organizational stuff is a waste of time. It is no wonder to me that the "NT template" which Nee and Lee tried to build with has been accompanied by unrelieved turmoil.

I tend to agree with you personally. I haven't met regularly with a church of any kind for years. However, if Christianity disappears as an institution, the Christian values which you have enununciated above might eventually disappear with it.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

I tend to agree with you personally. I haven't met regularly with a church of any kind for years. However, if Christianity disappears as an institution, the Christian values which you have enununciated above might eventually disappear with it.

The golden rule was not invented by Jesus. It has been around since pre-history, and is a rule in all religions, before and after Jesus. So I doubt that it will disappear should Christianity eventually be counted as the Greek mythologies are today.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

The golden rule was not invented by Jesus. It has been around since pre-history, and is a rule in all religions, before and after Jesus. So I doubt that it will disappear should Christianity eventually be counted as the Greek mythologies are today.

Jesus didn't invent compassion either. However, Jesus is a symbol of compassion for millions of people. The world needs more sources of compassion not less.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

Jesus didn't invent compassion either. However, Jesus is a symbol of compassion for millions of people. The world needs more sources of compassion not less.

I have witnessed believers that are less compassionate then non-believers....No one has a corner on compassion...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I have witnessed believers that are less compassionate then non-believers....No one has a corner on compassion...

Brother awareness, I just find it so tragic that you have nearly nothing positive to ever say about the Bible, Christians, church history, etc. :verysad:

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

I have witnessed believers that are less compassionate then non-believers....No one has a corner on compassion...

I was once hitch hiking in Wales, England during a hurricane. I was picked up by a man and his wife that lived about 2 or 3 hours away. He drove me to his house, let me take a warm shower, when I got out I learned they had put most of my clothes in the dryer. They gave me a nice hot meal and a bag lunch and then drove me to a good spot to hitch hike from. I asked him why he was being so nice, he said that when he was in the US people treated him very well and he was merely repaying the favor.

That was probably the single most important event in my life that led to my coming to Houston and meeting the LC there but that is a longer story.

I consider myself less compassionate than he was, and I have no idea if he was a Christian or not.

The point I am getting at is that according to the parable of the Good Samaritan the church is like a hospital where we are able to recover from being beaten up by the Law, and by the Crooks, etc. You do not go to a hospital expecting to find people who are healthy, you expect to find people who are trying to get healthy. Therefore the mark of a genuine Christian is not how compassionate they are, but are they aware that they are sick? As the Lord said "I have not come for the healthy but for the sick"

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

I have witnessed believers that are less compassionate then non-believers....No one has a corner on compassion...

I agree no one has a corner on compassion. Most humans have some capacity for it. But the human capacity for compassion can be cultivated or quenched. Christian teachings and the example of Jesus are significant sources for cultivating a compassionate way of life. The world would be worse without them.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by awareness

I have witnessed believers that are less compassionate then non-believers....No one has a corner on compassion...

Ohio is right.

Of course, your statement is also right. But the reason you make it is the problem.

Actually, compassion is not exclusively Christian. But the Christian should be compassionate while there is no such requirement on others. The fact that even Christians fail at it is proof that we are not fully sanctified. We are on the path — not yet in the New J.

[Guest2]

Originally Posted by awareness

The golden rule was not invented by Jesus. It has been around since pre-history, and is a rule in all religions, before and after Jesus. So I doubt that it will disappear should Christianity eventually be counted as the Greek mythologies are today.

Awareness,

Compassion may not enter society only through Christianity. I agree with that. The question is where did compassion come from. If you believe in a God who created human beings, God also created beings who had freedom of choice who are moral agents and exercisers of morality.

I don't doubt that their are some if not many non-Christians who have shown more compassion and done more good deeds than other Christians.

My question is the consistency dilemma. If you do no believe in a God than why seek moral justice, freedom and relief from suffering? Because you or they matter? Hardly, humans are just a bunch of carbon, oxygen and water with some chemical reactions. The universe doesnt care so why sacrifice yourself to do good? In fact their is no definition of Good and Evil as it is entirely subjective. What is the reason.. I dont question that their nice people if not more, but my question would be why, whats the point or motivation?

I say the Golden Rule was invented by God and passed through our generations regardless of religion or not. Its the only way to live sanely. Otherwise everything would be one chaotic chemical reaction. Religion paved the way for human beings to be a means to an end rather than just a means. We have intrinsic moral value due to the fact that we were created by God who loves us.

Sorry for my rambling

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Leomon

Awareness,

Compassion may not enter society only through Christianity. I agree with that. The question is where did compassion come from. If you believe in a God who created human beings, God also created beings who had freedom of choice who are moral agents and exercisers of morality.

I don't doubt that their are some if not many non-Christians who have shown more compassion and done more good deeds than other Christians.

My question is the consistency dilemma. If you do no believe in a God than why seek moral justice, freedom and relief from suffering? Because you or they matter? Hardly, humans are just a bunch of carbon, oxygen and water with some chemical reactions. The universe doesnt care so why sacrifice yourself to do good? In fact their is no definition of Good and Evil as it is entirely subjective. What is the reason.. I dont question that their nice people if not more, but my question would be why, whats the point or motivation?

I say the Golden Rule was invented by God and passed through our generations regardless of religion or not. Its the only way to live sanely. Otherwise everything would be one chaotic chemical reaction. Religion paved the way for human beings to be a means to an end rather than just a means. We have intrinsic moral value due to the fact that we were created by God who loves us.

Sorry for my rambling

No need for apology, your rambling posits some good points.

I might point out, however, that the Golden Rule needs no god. It makes since if I'm honest with myself. That which I don't like done to me, I shouldn't do to others. That which I like done to me, I should do to others. It operates out of honesty with myself. No god needed.

[Guest2]

Originally Posted by awareness

No need for apology, your rambling posits some good points.

I might point out, however, that the Golden Rule needs no god. It makes since if I'm honest with myself. That which I don't like done to me, I shouldn't do to others. That which I like done to me, I should do to others. It operates out of honesty with myself. No god needed.

Do you mind if I disagree with you and explain why and/or ask some questions?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I might point out, however, that the Golden Rule needs no god. It makes since if I'm honest with myself. That which I don't like done to me, I shouldn't do to others. That which I like done to me, I should do to others. It operates out of honesty with myself. No god needed.

Reading your many posts, similar to this one, one would think that you see no real need for God at all.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

No need for apology, your rambling posits some good points.

I might point out, however, that the Golden Rule needs no god. It makes since if I'm honest with myself. That which I don't like done to me, I shouldn't do to others. That which I like done to me, I should do to others. It operates out of honesty with myself. No god needed.

The societies from which the golden rule comes in it's various iterations also have conceptions of the ultimate or the transcendent including gods. So not only the golden rule is cross cultural and so arguably universal, but so is the idea of transcendent or ultimate reality with which God is identified.

The golden rule as an ethical standard is insufficient for producing compassion. What if the "others" do not want done onto them what I would have them do onto me? I think the formula "Love thy neighbor as thyself" goes beyond the golden rule as typically formulated. In any case, compassion requires empathy with the feeling of the person. It has as a basis for action the inability to bear the suffering of other person.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Leomon

Religion paved the way for human beings to be a means to an end rather than just a means. We have intrinsic moral value due to the fact that we were created by God who loves us.

And the sacrifice of the Righteous One means that we no longer have to sacrifice, scandalize, and scapegoat each other to appease an angry or capricious God(s).

"Love to the loveless shown, that they might lovely be"... that was a line in a hymn that I remember. It's true: God loved us while we were yet sinners... "Here is love: not that we loved God but that He loved us..."

I can ramble too... but I think my point remains valid. No organizational structure, New Testament-based or otherwise, is needed for us to love one another. And to the extent we fixate on organizing ourselves, whether according to a first-century model or another, we risk losing our first love.

It seems to me, if the 7 asian assemblies in Rev 2 and 3 are in any way a representative sample (6 of the 7 are told to repent), that Elvis had in fact left the building. This is what the aged disciple John saw, from Patmos. So why try to recover an abandoned structure?

"We want Elvis!! We want Elvis!!"

"Sorry folks... can you hear that airplane in the distance? Elvis has left; please exit the building in an orderly fashion..."

[Guest2]

aron,

I also agree with you.

Whats important to me is that it is the same God we are worshipping.

After that its all secondary. I think as Christians we need to find a church that fits us. And when I say that, I believe that each church is an expression of God. There is no perfect church but there are churches that will fit you and some that dont. We are all created uniquely and experiance God differently, that being so its impossible to say that Evangelicals, Anglicans, Lutherans, are THE church and The expression of God.

Just find a church where you can connect with believers, is doctrinally sound and a place where you can grow as a believer.

All that other stuff is secondary.

Awareness. I agree that there are christians who are less compassionate than non-christians. Christians more judgmental or complacent that non-christians.

However the actions of a few should not effect your view on Christianity.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Leomon

Whats important to me is that it is the same God we are worshipping.

After that its all secondary.

Just find a church where you can connect with believers, is doctrinally sound and a place where you can grow as a believer.

All that other stuff is secondary.

yes; our first love is the Lord, and our neighbor. All that other stuff is secondary.

Some will find biblically-based ideals, carefully crafted, which they deem essential to the christian walk, and they will try to take you hostage. Don't do it.

Love God, love your neighbor, forgive one another as you've been forgiven, try not to sin, and don't fall prey to the schemes of the subtle one. He is much more intelligent than we are.

So be simple. Like Caleb and Joshua. "God said go into the good land, so we will go." Don't get distracted by carefully argued, scripturally based models which draw your heart from your first love.

In the LRCs they do profess to love the Lord. And they at least pay some lip service to their neighbor. But their focus is on "the church", and "the ministry", and "the move of the Lord", and "the up-to-date speaking", and "the campus work", and on and on and on. It is like a pantheon of Gods.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

... just because something happened in the NT doesn't mean we need to try to slavishly imitate it..

The primitive Cargo Cults proves that imitation is part of basic human nature.

So of course we think that if we can just get the church today to be modeled after the early church, God will bring the cargo for us.

It's funny thinking ... especially looking at the Cargo Cults -- but it's in us just the same.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by awareness

The primitive Cargo Cults proves that imitation is part of basic human nature.

So of course we think that if we can just get the church today to be modeled after the early church, God will bring the cargo for us.

It's funny thinking ... especially looking at the Cargo Cults -- but it's in us just the same.

Maybe cargo cults just prove that uneducated natives are gullible. I mean where else are cargo cults seen but in those cultures (not counting tenuous analogies). I don't think cargo cults prove anything other than without proper interpretation of events outlandish speculations are possible.

The fact that cargo cults are obviously deceived does not mean that repeating previous patterns will likely not reproduce previous results. Sometimes it will, sometimes it won't. It all depends.

If I lay out in the sun, I'll get a tan. Every time. But if I hang a drawing of the sun from the ceiling and lay under it I'm just ignorant. Repeating a previous pattern in an attempt to repeat a result is not foolish, it's called learning. Cargo cults just didn't learn enough.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Cargo cults just didn't learn enough.

As smart as we are we're still pretty much as dumb as the Cargo Cults. And that's my point.

So we still think if we can just get God's combination lock tumblers set just right, like mimicking the early church, if we can just get the bamboo just right, looking like ships, and antennas, then God will deliver his cargo to us.

It's reverse engineering, and is not the process whereby the early church came into being.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by awareness

As smart as we are we're still pretty much as dumb as the Cargo Cults. And that's my point.

Please speak for yourself. I know you strive to convince yourself and anyone who will listen that humanity is so pitiful that we can pretty much be excused from any responsibility, but I don't buy it.

So we still think if we can just get God's combination lock tumblers set just right, like mimicking the early church, if we can just get the bamboo just right, looking like ships, and antennas, then God will deliver his cargo to us.

It's reverse engineering, and is not the process whereby the early church came into being.

In my experience, in some cases mimicking the early church brings excellent results. If you are talking about some kind of superstition, I agree. But just mimicking the early church isn't necessarily superstitious. Surely there are patterns in the NT we can benefit from. A highly respected way of achieving success is to find someone who is successful and imitate them. You shouldn't just throw everyone who imitates the early church into the class of cargo cults.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Igzy

You shouldn't just throw everyone who imitates the early church into the class of cargo cults.

I wouldn't except for the fact that I've been up close and personal with both the Recovery and the Restoration movements. And in both there does most certainly exist that if we could only get the church today like the church back then God would pour out his blessing on us. Lee even said that the Lord is waiting to come back for the bride to be prepared and ready.

And the whole purpose of the restoration movement, including non-use of musical instruments, is to bring the church today to back the way it was back in the early days of Christianity.

Both look at their recovery/restoration movements just as the Cargo Cultists looked at their superstitious prayers, supplications, and rituals ; like magic will happen if they get it just right.

Both, however, again like the Cargo Cultists, have been disappointed.

The power and blessing of the Lord on the ministries of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee lay in their vision and ministry of the glorious and wonderous person of Jesus Christ, who is now the Lord Spirit to the church, which is His body, for its building up to glorify God the Father.

In or out of the local churches, we would do well to have such a focus.

Ruined by Jesus for anything else😀

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The power and blessing of the Lord on the ministries of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee lay in their vision and ministry of the glorious and wonderous person of Jesus Christ, who is now the Lord Spirit to the church, which is His body, for its building up to glorify God the Father.

In or out of the local churches, we would do well to have such a focus.

Ruined by Jesus for anything else😀

You have been "ruined by Jesus" for the "ministries of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee?"

I doubt.

Sorry,

I didn't mean it that way. I'm ruined for anything but the glorious and wonderous person of Jesus Christ.

By the way. I'm not a LC member.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The power and blessing of the Lord on the ministries of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee lay in their vision and ministry of the glorious and wonderous person of Jesus Christ, who is now the Lord Spirit to the church, which is His body, for its building up to glorify God the Father.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

By the way. I'm not a LC member.

Sorry my friend, but these two statements together just don't "compute". Are you saying you have never been a member in any Local Church associated with either of the ministries of Nee or Lee? If this is true then you would be the first person I have met in 40 years that would make such a statement about Nee and Lee, yet have not been associated in some way with the LC/LSM/TWGBR.

I'm not doubting your good faith in posting here per se, but please explain, giving as much detail as you feel comfortable, your interest in and/or relationship to the ministries of Nee and Lee or the Local Churches associated with them.

-

[Ohio]

What is TWGBR?

[UntoHim]

Sorry, TWGBR is Taiwan Gospel Bookroom - http://www.twgbr.org.tw/

Very colorful and fancy website, nothing like the boring LSM websites.

They have for sale something they call the "Multifunction Digital Gospel Machine" which is some sort of MP3 player that is pre-loaded with all sorts of LSM material...even poetry! They also have a smartphone that is also preloaded with LSM material. Of course they have all the printed material for sale as well, but the main thrust of the website seems to be geared towards younger people.

http://ezoeplayer.twgbr.org/
Asus Zenphone

I was in local churches for many years, but left. Sorry for lack of details, but I did receive much blessing from Nee and Lee's ministries, and still respect them for reason I cited. Blessing began to wane about the time LSM sued fellow believers against Paul's clear words. Is there a connection there? Hmmmm.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by JJ

The power and blessing of the Lord on the ministries of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee lay in their vision and ministry of the glorious and wonderous person of Jesus Christ, who is now the Lord Spirit to the church, which is His body, for its building up to glorify God the Father.

In or out of the local churches, we would do well to have such a focus.

Thanks for registering JJ, the more the merrier!

I understand you no longer meet with the Local Church. I curious as to whether or not you have found any fellowship (outside of the LC) which seems, at least in part, to fulfill this "vision" you speak of? I am always curious how other brothers and sisters have gone on with the Lord after leaving the LC/LSM!

-

[JJ]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Thanks for registering JJ, the more the merrier!

I understand you no longer meet with the Local Church. I curious as to whether or not you have found any fellowship (outside of the LC) which seems, at least in part, to fulfill this "vision" you speak of? I am always curious how other brothers and sisters have gone on with the Lord after leaving the LC/LSM!

-

Yes, I have found much rich fellowship with believers outside of the LC (surprise!). When I keep my eyes focused on "the One who is all and in all" in the New Man, things go well. I am still "haunted" by local church stuff though, and trying to get past that.