Did the Catholic Church Create Europe?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by awareness

I think you are attributing to me the product of religion ; that has held back every advancement of society into modernity and science at every stage and step.

What you are saying is false. It shows an ignorance of history. The Catholic church was the curator of history and knowledge in the Middle Ages. It basically created Europe. Without the Catholic church Europe might still be a region of Vandals and Visigoths, living in mud huts.

Religion has its faults but your continual sweeping denunciation of it is no different than Lee's sweeping denunciation of "Christianity." It's an extreme view, and a damaging one. I think it's become a crutch for you. You are like a religion hating addict. So much so that you confuse healthy moral habits with religion. You confuse expecting people to honor their obligations with placing burdens on them. You confuse standards with legalism. You confuse lack of responsibility with freedom.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Igzy

What you are saying is false. It shows an ignorance of history. The Catholic church was the curator of history and knowledge in the Middle Ages. It basically created Europe. Without the Catholic church Europe might still be a region of Vandals and Visigoths, living in mud huts.

Are you talking more about the aqueducts and roads they built throughout the Empire, or the telescope they bought for Galileo?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Are you talking more about the aqueducts and roads they built throughout the Empire, or the telescope they bought for Galileo?

I'm talking about civilization. Something Europe didn't know until the Catholic church brought it there. I'm taking about Augustine and Aquinas and the scholastics and the monks and the whole gamut of elements which added up to a society which could actually respond to the Renaissance Enlightenment when it came along.

People of Protestant ilk like to think everything before the Reformation was complete corruption. It wasn't. The popes got out of hand, but they also helped control greedy secular leaders. And an entire continent got Christianized. Europe is post-Christian now, but ironically it was not the Catholic church that brought that on. It was in part the seemingly endless religious wars between Protestants that so disgusted Europeans that they can't find a place in their hearts now for things Christian.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I'm talking about civilization. Something Europe didn't know until the Catholic church brought it there. I'm taking about Augustine and Aquinas and the scholastics and the monks and the whole gamut of elements which added up to a society which could actually respond to the Renaissance Enlightenment when it came along.

People of Protestant ilk like to think everything before the Reformation was complete corruption. It wasn't. The popes got out of hand, but they also helped control greedy secular leaders. And an entire continent got Christianized. Europe is post-Christian now, but ironically it was not the Catholic church that brought that on. It was in part the seemingly endless religious wars between Protestants that so disgusted Europeans that they can't find a place in their hearts now for things Christian.

Europe didn't know "civilisation" even after centuries of Roman rule?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Europe didn't know "civilisation" even after centuries of Roman rule?

Europe was controlled by the Empire, but not much civilized by it. When the Empire waned the region degraded into a collection of roaming, warring tribes: the Huns, Angles, Saxons, Slavs, Franks, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Goths, Vandals, etc. They comprise what we know as "the Dark Ages." Without the Christian monks there, all written literature from this period would have been lost from this area. These tribes simply weren't interested in preserving antiquity.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Europe was controlled by the Empire, but not much civilized by it. When the Empire waned the region degraded into a collection of roaming, warring tribes: the Huns, Angles, Saxons, Slavs, Franks, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Goths, Vandals, etc. They comprise what we know as "the Dark Ages." Without the Christian monks there, all written literature from this period would have been lost from this area. These tribes simply weren't interested in preserving antiquity.

Not sure the benefit of "preserving antiquity", when you're just gonna revise it after the fact anyway...

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Europe was controlled by the Empire, but not much civilized by it. When the Empire waned the region degraded into a collection of roaming, warring tribes: the Huns, Angles, Saxons, Slavs, Franks, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Goths, Vandals, etc. They comprise what we know as "the Dark Ages." Without the Christian monks there, all written literature from this period would have been lost from this area. These tribes simply weren't interested in preserving antiquity.

And this is clearly what differentiates man from all other creatures on this planet. Sure, Whales have bigger brains, and many species have rudimentary communication, and primates have opposable thumbs. But man is the only creature with a dictionary and the only one that needs one. It is our written language that enables us to go to the moon and that defines our civilization. Without the written language it is doubtful we would have progressed much past a hunter/gather tribes and basic agricultural society of New Guinea. The written language defines your civilization. So, in that sense the monks did a wonderful job of preserving written language (as did other religious groups -- Islam had great libraries, etc.)

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Europe didn't know "civilisation" even after centuries of Roman rule?

I'm sorry, Roman rule and civilization? Kind of like Nero with his great real estate deal, or putting Christians on stakes and letting the cries and moans make your backyard party more festive?

You can define civilization as laws, and roads, and govt.

Or you can define a civilized society based on their morality and the way they treat the weakest among them.

So the HS history teachers like to teach about Rome and civilization, but what we consider to be civilized today is a far cry from what Rome practiced.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

People of Protestant ilk like to think everything before the Reformation was complete corruption. It wasn't. The popes got out of hand, but they also helped control greedy secular leaders. And an entire continent got Christianized. Europe is post-Christian now, but ironically it was not the Catholic church that brought that on. It was in part the seemingly endless religious wars between Protestants that so disgusted Europeans that they can't find a place in their hearts now for things Christian.

Rome did use the confessional to "control greedy secular leaders," and to further curtail their "greedy ways," extorted massive sums of money via blackmail from these leaders, since Rome and its thugs alone controlled the "gates to heaven." Not only did the papal empire deal with those "greedy leaders," they also dealt a serious blow to all those "greedy" peasants all over Europe. Rome felt it was better for them to starve to death, then to go to hell for the sins of "greed."

Fortunately for the continent of Europe, none of Rome's many bishops, priests, and monks were at all "greedy." No, of course not! And, by the way, how dare those young newly-married grooms be so "greedy," and not share their virgin brides with the local priests.

I could go on and on about how Rome has "properly" dealt with secular "greed," but I should move on to the subjects of medicine, engineering, astronomy, physics, agriculture, etc. which all went seriously backwards under Roman management. Then we can discuss how Europe got "Christianized" -- many were given the choice to be baptized in water or be drowned in water.

Seriously, Igzy which history books have you been reading?

[rayliotta]

Ahem, warning, contains no sugar...

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Rome did use the confessional to "control greedy secular leaders," and to further curtail their "greedy ways," extorted massive sums of money via blackmail from these leaders, since Rome and its thugs alone controlled the "gates to heaven." Not only did the papal empire deal with those "greedy leaders," they also dealt a serious blow to all those "greedy" peasants all over Europe. Rome felt it was better for them to starve to death, then to go to hell for the sins of "greed."

Fortunately for the continent of Europe, none of Rome's many bishops, priests, and monks were at all "greedy." No, of course not! And, by the way, how dare those young newly-married grooms be so "greedy," and not share their virgin brides with the local priests.

I could go on and on about how Rome has "properly" dealt with secular "greed," but I should move on to the subjects of medicine, engineering, astronomy, physics, agriculture, etc. which all went seriously backwards under Roman management. Then we can discuss how Europe got "Christianized" -- many were given the choice to be baptized in water or be drowned in water.

Seriously, Igzy which history books have you been reading?

I realize that there were some significant apostasies within the RCC in the form of wayward priests, and even a few popes, somewhat weighted near the times leading up to and not long after Luther, that were religious Pol Pots. But the practices of even the indulgences that Luther objected to was not some long-running scam, but a somewhat recent practice.

It surely was a dark time in which the RCC seemed to be rolling out its worst just as more of the people were becoming better able to grapple with scripture on their own. Not a whole lot, but more than had been.

I would suggest that if we can accept many of the changes that the RCC has made even in the past 30 year or so, they are taking on some of the practices and teachings that venture into what we would call evangelicalism. No, it is not a huge undertaking. And it has not ended the excessive reverence for — more like near to actual deification of — Mary. But leaving that one out, I think that we often miss what is actually right about them because the "look and feel" is so Apple in a PC world. It is liturgical and traditional in an evangelical, non-traditional world. (And we should look around to see that we just have more modern traditions. Even in the LRC.)

We had a little reticence toward the RCC a number of months ago. I recall realizing that salvation is not a prayer, or an agreement with a proposition. It is the acceptance that Jesus is God, and our sacrifice. In evangelicalism we are taught that this is something that you get convinced about, then pray a prayer and suddenly have this near-miraculous transformation from darkness to light. But it is also true that many following along in the older traditions learn, and follow, and obey, and as they do they begin to believe. First a little. Then a little more. Eventually, they can look back and realize that along the way they began to really believe in Jesus. No Baptist/Pentecostal/evangelical, etc., line-in-the-sand event. But a change from darkness to light.

I'm not excusing what is in error. But we often are too harsh on the RCC because they are not like us. Their tradition is more ancient, even Medieval while ours is modern and Western. We even think that everyone views the gospel in terms of American self-determinationism, capitalism, etc. But it is not true.

I know that your early history was in the RCC. If you had remained there for your whole life, I cannot assert that you would have been truly "saved." But there might be much more likelihood than even you could have believed at the time. You just might never think of it in the terms that Protestantism does. And our modernistic, Protestant views just do not want to accept that their way can result in salvation without sneaking out in some clandestine manner to a revival somewhere.

You should hear the screaming of part of my mind as I write this. The conflicts are tremendous. But I am starting to think that maybe all those old thoughts are just more ways to despise some of our brothers and sisters in Christ.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Rome did use the confessional to "control greedy secular leaders," and to further curtail their "greedy ways," extorted massive sums of money via blackmail from these leaders, since Rome and its thugs alone controlled the "gates to heaven." Not only did the papal empire deal with those "greedy leaders," they also dealt a serious blow to all those "greedy" peasants all over Europe. Rome felt it was better for them to starve to death, then to go to hell for the sins of "greed."

Fortunately for the continent of Europe, none of Rome's many bishops, priests, and monks were at all "greedy." No, of course not! And, by the way, how dare those young newly-married grooms be so "greedy," and not share their virgin brides with the local priests.

I could go on and on about how Rome has "properly" dealt with secular "greed," but I should move on to the subjects of medicine, engineering, astronomy, physics, agriculture, etc. which all went seriously backwards under Roman management. Then we can discuss how Europe got "Christianized" -- many were given the choice to be baptized in water or be drowned in water.

Seriously, Igzy which history books have you been reading?

As sinful as the Catholic church was, they did two very important things. 1. They claimed that their authority was from the Apostles, which received it from Jesus. and 2. They justified their practices and teachings with the Bible.

By setting up the Bible and the apostles teaching as the source of their authority this laid the ground work for the truth to expose the darkness. So when people learned that Jesus, Peter and Paul condemned the practices of the Catholic church as sinful it was easier to overcome the darkness.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

As sinful as the Catholic church was, they did two very important things. 1. They claimed that their authority was from the Apostles, which received it from Jesus. and 2. They justified their practices and teachings with the Bible.

By setting up the Bible and the apostles teaching as the source of their authority this laid the ground work for the truth to expose the darkness. So when people learned that Jesus, Peter and Paul condemned the practices of the Catholic church as sinful it was easier to overcome the darkness.

Few things I kept from my Catholic upbringing --

1. Jesus is the Son of God
2. Jesus died and resurrected
3. The Bible is the word of God