Psychological Damage in the LC

[FoundHim]

I think I have not read enough on this forum to even start a new thread, but I am starting this one with one purpose in mind.

I would ask that whoever would like ,would help me start a list of concise damage that the LC does to one psychologically. Could be related to spiritual damage, or just plain "mind pain".

I have Christian friends who just have No idea what a group that is "abusive" causes to one's psyche. Yes, I will use that word! We forgot we had one, or were told not to use our "mind" - how many times ? ??????? We are body, soul and spirit - I still believe that. But the "soul" was such a no no, put it down, deny, deny, deny - who could Live that way?

I hope we will keep it concise - even a list would be good if anyone has one pertaining to helping others understand. Quotes from brothers would be a help as well.

No. 1 - I would say my previous comment on the exaggerated denying of the soul is a Big one. Someone could elaborate on that !

Can you help me? I really do mean a list I could give someone - literally. I have someone in mind.

FoundHim

[blessD]

No 2 - The exaggerated form of submission.

I posted something along this line on the LCS thread - it applies to your request.

My view and understanding of submission was very distorted from my youthful impressions and training in the local churches. I understood submission to be the same as slavery to the point of walking with your head down and behind someone to whom you were submitting. Whether it be top elders wives or brothers under Witness Lee, I saw this practice and it was revered.

Originally Posted by Nell
Process,

You make a good point. What a complex system we were all caught into! It's a culture of extremes.

A few years ago I went to a meeting for whatever reason...I ended up there. As I looked around the room, I noticed the faces of the sisters. It was remarkable. Many had an almost a blank look on their faces. Even if they were smiling, their eyes looked hollow. Based on what you've shared, I'll call this a "Stepford" look. I think it is probably very common. I have known one sister in particular for many years, who is the wife of a dominating elder husband. She has had that Stepford look, an almost permanent pained look on her face, as long as I can remember. So you're right, not all elder families were "privileged". Many women try to cope the best they can, and that often means denial.

Nell

In most areas of my life, I have reached a pretty objective and peaceful place, but I have a couple of odd leftover issues here and there - one is how I react to the word submission. It either makes me feel angry and make an internal fist to fight back or I may have physical reactions, too. Maybe it is some odd form of post-traumatic syndrome? When I hear the word, I think about sister's that behaved just like described in this and the posts by Process. I occasionally tried to behave like a 'stepford wife', but it never really fit.

I am working to gain a healthy Christ-based understanding of submission.

[Conval]

i just found this forum
but for me, LC damage me when i found out that they're talking behind my back, gossiping about me..
How could they do that? I thought they were in the same Body??
After that, I just can't pray, can't read the Bible..
Because every time i try to read the Bible, i thought, those people who did things to me read the same bible as i do, but it didn't change them.
I thought christian supposed to be better than those who never read the Bible?

forgive my screwed up english

[UntoHim]

Conval,

First of all welcome to the forum.

So sorry for what you have experienced. As you will quickly find out by browsing around the various boards here, you ARE NOT ALONE! There are many people who have had been hurt and damaged, and a number of them have come to this forum for dialogue and even for healing.

One thing I would strongly encourage you to do is NOT GIVE UP ON READING THE BIBLE AND DO NOT GIVE UP ON PRAYING, for these are the vary foundation of our two-way relationship with God - The Bible is how God talks to us, and prayer is how we talk to Him. Tragically, many of the teachings and practices of The Local Church disrupt and distract us from this wonderful two-way relationship with God.

While the actions you have described here can be found among almost all nominal and/or immature Christians, the main source of these types of problems among members of the Local Church of Witness Lee can be found in what I have written above. While they say they are “becoming God in life in nature” this is not possible because they spend more time learning and living the words of a mere man then they do learning and living the Word of God. They even admit this by openly proclaiming that their “one publication” is NOT the Holy Bible, but rather the words of Witness Lee. Regarding prayer, there is much I could say, but I will just tell you for now that my 35 plus years of observation and experience both IN and OUT of the Local Church lead me to tell you that much of the prayer in the LC is not what I would call “biblical prayer” at all.

When you get a chance please take some time and review as many of the threads as you can and you will get a good idea of who else can provide some fellowship and help to you.

Your brother who is unto Him

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Conval

i just found this forum
but for me, LC damage me when i found out that they're talking behind my back, gossiping about me..
How could they do that? I thought they were in the same Body??
After that, I just can't pray, can't read the Bible..
Because every time i try to read the Bible, i thought, those people who did things to me read the same bible as i do, but it didn't change them.
I thought christian supposed to be better than those who never read the Bible?

forgive my screwed up english

Conval, don't worry about your English, you got your message across.

I too had to give up the Bible and everything else related to the LC after coming out. I had to to keep my sanity. So I understand what you are going thru. My heart goes out to you. Wish I had a magic wand. I'd make it all go away.

Hang in there. There is life after the LC. You'll see. It's actually better out of the LC than in it. You'll see. Your mind begins to open up. Your heart gets larger. Even the sky is more wide open and bluer.

I just hope God reaches out to you. So you'll learned it's not by your doing, like in the LC. Too much doing in the LC. It gets you down after awhile. It's abnormal. It's a mental illness really, in the LC. You'll see. Once the fog of all the crap lifts.

Be grateful to God for leading you out. It's the best thing that has ever happened to you, as far as I'm concerned.

I left back in the early 1980s. The LC was too bad for me back then, and it's gotten much worse since then. The damn place is a cult. What do you expect? I discovered that way back then.

Here's how I figure things now : No matter how bad life gets, and it can get bad, it could always be worse ; I could still be in the LC.

So be happy, you're out. Free at last!

[11of101]

It's been 6 months since i severed my links to the Borg's Recovery. It was by no means an easy or quick exit. Since 2008 I had struggled with the thought of leaving. Since completing the FTT 10 years ago, I was disillusioned with WL & LSM, yet I still endeavoured to be in the LC, with the expectation that disillusionment would be temporary.

For me, the concept of "psychological martyrdom" shows what LSM is all about. I wrote to LSM in 2008 expressing my concern that such teaching was dangerous and erroneous. No reply as yet to any of my emails.

Let me say this: one day, I stormed out of the FTT and travelled out of town to see my much beloved "mentor". He put on his psychiatrist's hat and I played the part of a client. I told him two brothers had been thrown out of the FTT for asking questions. (That day I had no heart to tell him of my own doubts about WL & LSM.) I gave my opinion; I said, "It could have been handled differently". I paused. Within a few seconds his posture and attitude to me changed. He raged violently pointing his finger at me and made a vacuous accusation against me. Immediately he phoned the co-worker in charge of the FTT informing him that I would be returning in a few hours.

I was stunned by his reactions. Yet he did not say another word and promptly told me to leave. That day marked the beginning of my exodus from the LC.

The relationship with my mentor declined slowly over the next 10 years. He would exploit & abuse me to further his own image. He has Narcissistic Personality Disorder as did WL. There were times when I was suicidal. Over 5 years I have pulled out my 50% of my facial hair. I did not fully realise the depth of abuse he administered to me until I finally cut my links.

I probably will never be part of any church group ever again. Currently I'm on anti-depressants and find it very hard to integrate with society in general. However relationships with my mother & siblings have slowly recovered.

Peace!
11of101

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by 11of101

It's been 6 months since i severed my links to the Borg's Recovery...

Hello 11of101,

Sorry and saddened to read about your experience. May your healing come speedily.

May I ask you a few questions:
Were you brought up in the LSM/LC ? Is your biological family in the LC?

How long were you in the LC ?

What made you want to go to the FTT?

When did you drop out of the FTT ?

What is your relationship to Jesus Christ ?

Do you still believe in HIM ? Do you believe His Word is TRUTH ?

How did you find this forum ?

Thanks in advance...
Blessings and quick healing to you friend.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by 11of101

It's been 6 months since i severed my links to the Borg's Recovery....

Gosh, they're dropping like flies. Good. That same goes for you 11of101, as for Conval.

And what is this "psychological martyrdom" teaching. I'm not familiar with it. Is it a teaching in FTT, or the LC? Who's teaching it? Sounds extremely sick to me....like if you've got it you need a shrink, or psychoactive medication. Is it contagious? I sure don't want to get it. Hope you get well soon.

[11of101]

Answers to Countmeworthy questions:
Were you brought up in the LSM/LC ? No
Is your biological family in the LC? No, raised in Roman Catholic Church.

How long were you in the LC ? 20 years, the last 5 years I have only been in regular contact with one other LC brother. But I've cut all my links.

What made you want to go to the FTT?
I wanted to develop deeper meaningful relationships with other christians. But the military mentality doesn't cater enough for that. "Learn to say Amen" "Maintain the atmosphere" and the ubiqutous "No opinion" morning, noon and in your dreams.

When did you drop out of the FTT ? I completed it. I'm a sucker for self torture. REmember Full Metal Jacket,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFNeBRc7W7s

What is your relationship to Jesus Christ ? I'm his deputy authority and you will say Amen, only kidding, my Lord & Saviour, of course.

Do you still believe in HIM ? Yes. Do you believe His Word is TRUTH ? Yes,
and I'm beginning to see that WL and Paul had similar personality traits.

How did you find this forum ? Can't remember. A link from thebereans I think.

[UntoHim]

Welcome to the Forum 11of101!

Thanks for that heartfelt post. Especially the part about the FTT. People need to know that for some people (many) it is not all that it appears from the outside. Many have been damaged.

In my personal opinion much of the damage is caused because the "trainers" are not qualified to teach and lead young people. What makes these people qualified? That they have been longtime Local Church members and can parrot the teachings of Witness Lee? What kind of personal lives have these people lead and what is their record of truly shepherding and mentoring people? If they are teaching from the Bible have they had any kind of formal christian/biblical education? These are mostly rhetorical questions that we all know the answer to but I thought I'd spit them out anyway.

I probably will never be part of any church group ever again. Currently I'm on anti-depressants and find it very hard to integrate with society in general. However relationships with my mother & siblings have slowly recovered.

I surely know how you feel about not being part of any church group again - I felt the same way for a couple of years after leaving. But I can tell you that this is what God's enemy wants the most - to keep you isolated from other Christians because then you may always believe what is taught in the LC about all other churches and ministries. Without fellowship we are figuratively cut off from the Body of Christ.

Everybody out here has a different story. I can tell you that for me my "salvation" was to come together and worship God and receive sound and healthy teachings. It took a long, long time for the positive affects of worship and sound teachings to counteract all that had been instilled in me in the LC - but I'm really glad that I hung in there. If you live in a metropolitan area I can assure you that there a number of such churches and ministries close to you. Send me a PM and I will be glad to suggest some places for you.

Again, thanks for posting and may the Lord continue to strengthen and encourage you.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by 11of101

Answers to Countmeworthy questions:....

1101--Thank you for answering my questions.

The only reason I asked about your relationship with our Precious Lord Jesus is often times, people who leave the LC are sooo burned out, they want nothing to do with the Lord or His Word....at least for a period. I for one, would not read Ephesians for the longest time because in the 70's that is the book the LC drilled into my head. So every time I'd read a scripture, I read it from the eyes of the LC. It took many years for me to read Ephesians but today, I can read it under the inspiration and illumination of the Holy Spirit with no problem.

When I read the Word, I often ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the Word to me so I don't read it with man's interpretation, including my own interpretation.

You're not a sucker for self torture. You were trying to do the right thing. You wanted to obey the Lord in you. You mentioned being raised Catholic.... Aww, the queen of religious strongholds ! I too was raised as a Catholic and from there went into the LC. I was 20ish. I left in 78/79 but much of the LC 'doctrine' remained in me for a long time. The RCC taught me it was the 'one true church' and wouldn't you know it, the LC in a round about way, did the same thing !

Some people manage to find Christians to connect with soon after they leave and others don't. I felt I needed to get plugged into a church a few years ago so that I could purge the LC junk out of me. But after a few years under that pastorialship, I saw junk in it too I could not agree with whatsoever. for example, at one service, the pastor told the congregation he was going to pray for the Lord to bless us financially...but that the prayer would only be for those who give their tithes and offerings THERE. If they gave their tithes and offerings elsewhere, that pastor was to bless them. It is this kind of junk I won't put up with.

Say, one other question if you don't mind ?
How much did you fork out at the FTT ? Did you get some sort of certificate of completion? Do you think there were a lot of people who felt like you did ? Do these 'teachers' get paid ? (I'm sure they do) How do they apply to 'teach' ?

In the 70's there was no FTT. We merely went to conferences and 'bi-annual trainings'. My 'locality' was not as bad as many LCs although many, many of the saints I knew have already left the LC too.

[11of101]

Thanks to UntoHim & CountmeWorthy.

Face to face fellowship is not for me right now. I need to re-learn how to use my mind again, to think for myself. Too much " get out of your mind and get into your spirit" mentality can make you lose your mind, your identity. Forum contact is good for now.

A few weeks after I cut myself off officially from the LC, I went one time to an RCC service, the first in 20 years. To my amazement one of the laity took the lead to start the service. I had never seen that happen before in RCC.

Answers:
How much did you fork out at the FTT? The LC supported me.
Did you get some sort of certificate of completion? I did.
Do you think there were a lot of people who felt like you did ?
From my observation of FTT graduates the last 10 years, they all have trouble fitting into society let alone the LC. They are either fanatical or depressed, some suicidal. A suitable spouse is most likely to be a fellow graduate, "normal folk ain't spiritual enough" mentality. Since when did marriage pertain to the joining of spirits?
Do these 'teachers' get paid ? (I'm sure they do) How do they apply to 'teach' ?
Basically you have to be a FTT graduate in order to be considered as a potential trainer & an LSM loyalist.

Conformity in FTT takes on another level. When I was there the Sisters had the same short-bob hairstyle, and none of them shaved their legs. No femininity. YYuukk!!

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by 11of101

Thanks to UntoHim & CountmeWorthy.

Face to face fellowship is not for me right now. I need to re-learn how to use my mind again, to think for myself. Too much " get out of your mind and get into your spirit" mentality can make you lose your mind, your identity. Forum contact is good for now.

A few weeks after I cut myself off officially from the LC, I went one time to an RCC service, the first in 20 years. To my amazement one of the laity took the lead to start the service. I had never seen that happen before in RCC.

Answers:
How much did you fork out at the FTT? The LC supported me.
Did you get some sort of certificate of completion? I did.
Do you think there were a lot of people who felt like you did ?
From my observation of FTT graduates the last 10 years, they all have trouble fitting into society let alone the LC. They are either fanatical or depressed, some suicidal. A suitable spouse is most likely to be a fellow graduate, "normal folk ain't spiritual enough" mentality. Since when did marriage pertain to the joining of spirits?
Do these 'teachers' get paid ? (I'm sure they do) How do they apply to 'teach' ?
Basically you have to be a FTT graduate in order to be considered as a potential trainer & an LSM loyalist.

Conformity in FTT takes on another level. When I was there the Sisters had the same short-bob hairstyle, and none of them shaved their legs. No femininity. YYuukk!!

Hi 11of101,

Your moniker is interesting. The only thing I think of when I see it is 1 of 100 (He leaves the 99 and goes to find the 1 lost one), but when I try to think about 11 of ..., I get brain freeze. Oh well. Maybe you just pulled it out of a hat and it has no meaning .... okay, I'm done with that.

I just took a few minutes to check the forums this morning, knowing I probably shouldn't because I don't have any free time right now to post and I always want to .... So, here I am posting quickly because I just wanted to say welcome to you and thank you for posting.

Yes, you do need drying out time after leaving the LC. How much is up to Jesus, I think. We are all different and he takes care of us according to who we are (just like children in a family are different and need unique care). As of this year I've now been out of the LC 1 year longer than I was in it. My husband and I were in for 20. It has been quite a journey. It took me a long time after leaving to even want to be around Christians. I just didn't trust them anymore. It also took time to learn how to use my mind again (sad!), but I have found it was a worthwhile endeavor . It also took time to learn how to defeat the guilt/fear syndrome that drop could drop on me at any time seemingly out of the blue. It took time to want to read the Bible again, and when I did, then God had to keep pulling off my LSM/Lee-colored glasses.

The good news is that Jesus is the best exit counselor. He stuck patiently with me for the first few years when I couldn't (wouldn't) even talk to Him (except two times I remember and both of those I did so fearfully, afraid He might send me back to the place I did not want to go back to.)

The point of my post is that you are in good hands. He will bring you through in His time and in His way. He can take all you've been through and turn your life into what you really wanted all along, if you're like me, which is to be His and to be well-pleasing to Him. He can even fill you with hope and joy again. (I am speaking from experience!)

Just wanted to encourage you that you will make it, 'cause your not alone. He is with you. One of the first steps is being honest with yourself and others and being willing to act accordingly, as your posts show you are doing. The journey ahead of you may be bumpy at times, but be encouraged that you are on the road to regaining and standing fast in the freedom wherewith Christ has set you free.

Thankful Jane

[11of101]

Thank you, Thankful Jane. 11of101 comes out of my love Star Trek. In ST: Voyager there was a borg set free from the collective, her monikor was 7of9. The number 101 refers to Room 101 in Orwell's book 1984 and Vault 101 in Fallout 3, a video game. I love prime numbers. You could also translate my moniker, if taken as binary numbers, into 3of5, which was also the monikor of another borg who regained his individuality (in ST: The Next Generation, episode "I,Borg") and helped other borgs regain their indentities also. I pray that I could be the reality of this monikor, if you would kindly excuse the use of LC lingo. Did that thaw the brain freeze?
As you can see I'm a born-again trekkie. Thanks to Gene Roddenberry for his "prevailing ministry".
11of101

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by 11of101

What made you want to go to the FTT?
I wanted to develop deeper meaningful relationships with other christians. But the military mentality doesn't cater enough for that. "Learn to say Amen" "Maintain the atmosphere" and the ubiqutous "No opinion" morning, noon and in your dreams.

First of all, the FTT is not for everyone in the recovery. If a brother or sister has an ambition for the ministry, FTT is for that brother or sister.
No opinion? If not your's, then whose?
Frankly 11of101, someone's opinion does become manifest.

Terry

[Paul Cox]

The FTT is not for everyone in the recovery and the recovery is not for everyone who is a Christian. And therein lies the problem. That is why the "recovery" is not the church. The Church has a place for every believer. The Church is not looking for 'a few good men.' The recovery is only looking for those who can fit their mold. And the FTT is looking for a few good men. In a word, exclusive.

Roger

[OBW]

For the "just me and the Holy Spirit" crowd, I have consistently noted that Jesus did not chastise the Jewish people for following the scribes and Pharisees (or at least trying to) but instead chastised the scribes and Pharisees for being such corrupt leaders. He seemed more interested in the people knowing the difference between good and bad leaders than knowing how to simply go it on their own.

And then he gave them a new group of leaders to follow and learn from. There is always the need for a shepherd. And according to Paul, He gave some. No, it wasn't so we could just wander in the fields and eat spiritual grass. It was to help us toward works of ministry. But we don't just do it on our own.

[awareness]

So OBW are you saying that all Judaism needed was some tweaks at the top? That all that Judaism needed was for the scribes and Pharisees to behave themselves, and Judaism would be just fine, and therefore there's no need for Christianity? Or are you implying that Christianity is just improved Judaism?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by awareness

So OBW are you saying that all Judaism needed was some tweaks at the top? That all that Judaism needed was for the scribes and Pharisees to behave themselves, and Judaism would be just fine, and therefore there's no need for Christianity? Or are you implying that Christianity is just improved Judaism?

No. But I am saying that our bad experience with LC leadership has lead us to conclude that leaders are simply bad and unscriptural when there is no scriptural evidence that is true. Judaism had plenty of problems. And its leadership was one of them. But that does not mean that Christianity was intended to be anarchy.

We like the idea of having these loose associations of Christians that are small enough that we need no leaders. And if that is all that was, then you wouldn't even have the benefit of whatever reading you do of whatever writer you like because they wouldn't have the luxury of being free to study and write, but would be workers just like the rest of us who will complain if the meeting schedule is too great.

And if you think that the doctrinal landscape of Christianity is diverse today, just imagine what it wil be without any who can give their worldly livelihoods up for service to study and preaching of the Word. Leadership was not the problem. It was leadership that was blinded by lust for power and position.

No. Judaism had a lot more problems than their leadership. But without proper leadership, they were doomed to stay where they were. Jesus came to lead them out. But he stayed physically for only 3 years then left others to continue. Yes, He is the answer. But someone has to teach if we are going to devote ourselves to the apostle's teaching, to prayer, to breaking of bread, etc. And unless you intend to gut the NT to the four gospels, there are the apostles and many other teachers who are commended to us. Look around you. There are many who are commendable today.

[11of101]

Thanks to UntoHim & CountmeWorthy.

Face to face fellowship is not for me right now. I need to re-learn how to use my mind again, to think for myself. Too much " get out of your mind and get into your spirit" mentality can make you lose your mind, your identity. Forum contact is good for now.

A few weeks after I cut myself off officially from the LC, I went one time to an RCC service, the first in 20 years. To my amazement one of the lay members took the lead to start the service. I had never seen that happen before in RCC.


How much did you fork out at the FTT ? LC supported me.
Did you get some sort of certificate of completion? Yes
Do you think there were a lot of people who felt like you did ? From my observation the past 10 years, most graduates have a difficult time blending into society as well as the LC.
Do these 'teachers' get paid ? (I'm sure they do) The LSM system is that financial support comes from another locality. I have always found this bizarre. You should receive the “milk of the flock” locally from the flock you shepherd locally.

How do they apply to 'teach' ? You have to be an FTT graduate and an LSM loyalist.

Upon graduation an LSM co-worker offered to “take me to Anaheim”, I guess that was an indication of a “job offer”. The LC elders also offered me an FT service job, but I declined, and they never asked me why I declined. They probably had their own doubts about WL & LSM but the atmosphere in the LC in not conducive to airing doubts in public.

[countmeworthy]

Once again, Muchas Gracias for answering my questions.
You're very much on the road to being Healed spiritually & emotionally. I totally understand.....in fact WE understand you not wanting to have much 'fellowship' if any with Christians face to face. As your Journey in Christ continues, you will hear a lot of very good teachings and in the next breath you might hear some very WEIRD teachings (especially teachings on 'tithes & offerings' which are a big business for the charesmatic church.) I've been all around the 'world' and seen some weird, weird stuff and yet there have been times when I have been soo much under the Presence of God, I could barely walk. Sometimes the Love of God is sooo great inside me, I want to 'explode' spiritually.

That said, make sure you pick up a hobby if you can..take up a sport for fun if you can, watch sitcoms and fun movies that will make you laugh and entertain you. Make friends with Christians and non Christians but keep yourself covered in the Blood of the Lamb every day. There is supernatural power beyond our human understanding in the Blood of Jesus.

Close your 'ears' to garbage talk & swearing. Close your 'eyes' to violence and sexual perversion. Sometimes we will watch a really good movie and they'll throw in a 'love' scene. Guard your heart. But stay away from sexually explicit shows/movies. Over the years, I have laughed my head off at Seinfeld. It is not the most wholesome show but I need to laugh. God did not strike me dead and I have a very close relationship with the Word of God. Sometimes I turn the channel even if it is funny because it is totally gross and disgusting OR I hear God, the Holy Spirit tell me to turn off the TV or change the channel.

The pendelum will swing from one extreme to the other most likely. It did for me. I am now finding balance in my spiritual journey. I am studying, praying and reading the Word of God more & more and 'teaching' the Word of God to my friends because the Word of GOD is MY LIFE.

I don't know if you read the scriptures or if you are taking a 'break'. When you do begin to read the scriptures get yourself a good 'study' bible. Also read from various translations. The amplified expands on the words. It gives you deeper understanding of the meaning of words.

You might already be doing this. I simply don't know. If you have questions or want some counsel, we're all here for you !

The other forum is very argumentative..even among those who have already left the LC. There are TRUTHS I learned in the LC because it was and still is the Word of God. But some of the folks over there, don't want to acknowledge that not EVERYTHING we learned in the LC was religious or bad. At least not for me. Please remember I was in the LC from 1975-79ish. There was no FTT. And I happened to be in a fairly 'good' locality.

Finally, thank you for reading my 'counsel'. I hope I wasn't too 'preachy'. Stay in touch with us. Ask questions. We are your FRIENDS. We totally UNDERSTAND everything you are going through and will be going through as you peel off the LC skin off of you.

God strengthen you, enlighten you, lead you in the Path of Righteousness, placing a Shield of Protection around you, give you WISDOM, JOY and LOTS and LOTS of laughter sprinkled with abundant Blessings above your expectation in Christ Jesus !

[awareness]

My wife and I had a very hard time coming out of the LC. We cried for 3 days. We tried other Christian groups. For months we searched for other places to meet.

As an aside, we even met with the group led by pastor Bob Coy of Calvary Chapel in Ft. Lauderdale, Fl. It was a small group back then. Now I understand it's 14,000 strong. On the other hand, the Witness Lee Church in Ft. Lauderdale - or those meeting as The Local Church - that my wife and I gave our life to, & were kicked out of - is gone. God blessed Calvary Chapel instead. And decided that Calvary Chapel IS the church in Ft. Lauderdale ; even tho pastor Bob has nothing to do with Witness Lee, nor the Blended Brothers & LSM.

Anyway, we tried other groups to meet with. But we couldn't fit in. The first reason was an inability to accept the clergy/laity system. Everywhere we went they had a clergy/Laity system. They were "fallen" to us, as in falling short, based just upon that system.

We gave up. And stopped meeting altogether.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by awareness

My wife and I had a very hard time coming out of the LC....

But you are going to church now, yes ? Much more than I do. I still have a problem with the clergy/laity system. Not so much because of the pastor-clergy but because much of the mega church is big business...Lakewood for instance. There is wayyy too much focus on the following topics: tithes and offerings, healings and prosperity. Those messages seem to be go through recycling quite a bit.

Nevertheless, I respect preachers/teachers that are truly anointed imho. Ya gotta dig for them. I prefer to go to church conferences than 'church' unless they are teaching on a particular topic of interest.

And while I don't go to 'church' very often, I share the Word of God just about everyday to someone. I often have people, even kids, tell me I ought to teach a sunday bible class.

[awareness]

CMW & 11of101, it's not easy to come out of the LC. There's no one answer. Each has to find his or her own way....but we can be here for each other....

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by FoundHim

I have Christian friends who just have No idea what a group that is "abusive" causes to one's psyche. Yes, I will use that word! We forgot we had one, or were told not to use our "mind" - how many times ? ??????? We are body, soul and spirit - I still believe that. But the "soul" was such a no no, put it down, deny, deny, deny - who could Live that way?
I would say my previous comment on the exaggerated denying of the soul is a Big one. Someone could elaborate on that !

To Witness Lee's credit, once in the late 1990's he did at least admit to having allowed the "spirit" to become the all-important focus, resulting in a serious neglect of the believer's soul and it's need for proper care and shepherding. Here is that portion.

Shepherding the Correct Part of People's Tripartite being: <-- Click Here for audio
"Here I like to say a little word, we have learned from the past, we thought we should shepherd people's spirit. Right? Because we stress people's spirit so much, and then we tell people to reject the soul, and that, that is not so right. Today the saint's problem is with their soul. Of course you may say, if their spirit is strong there will be no problem! But how could their spirit be strong, when they have a lot of things in their soul? So we have to learn how to shepherd their soul, how to touch their soul."
[Witness Lee - ''The Training and the Practice of the Vital Groups'' - Pg77, Tape 9FVGT08 - Living Stream Ministry]

The document link above contains several audio clips that are worth hearing. It seems that back in 1943 [In Chefoo] there was a much clearer understanding of the need to shepherd the saints souls.

But to my registration, no leaders ever responded to Witness Lee's weak late nineties word of correction. The predominate focus on the spirit and the resulting soul neglect and abuse continued much as it had been before he ever spoke this warning.

You can find additional items regarding this problem at my site www.Shepherding.org

P.S.

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

To Witness Lee's credit, once in the late 1990's he did at least admit to having allowed the "spirit" to become the all-important focus, resulting in a serious neglect of the believer's soul and it's need for proper care and shepherding. Here is that portion.

Shepherding the Correct Part of People's Tripartite being: <-- Click Here for audio
"Here I like to say a little word, we have learned from the past, we thought we should shepherd people's spirit. Right? Because we stress people's spirit so much, and then we tell people to reject the soul, and that, that is not so right. Today the saint's problem is with their soul. Of course you may say, if their spirit is strong there will be no problem! But how could their spirit be strong, when they have a lot of things in their soul? So we have to learn how to shepherd their soul, how to touch their soul."
[Witness Lee - ''The Training and the Practice of the Vital Groups'' - Pg77, Tape 9FVGT08 - Living Stream Ministry]

The document link above contains several audio clips that are worth hearing. It seems that back in 1943 [In Chefoo] there was a much clearer understanding of the need to shepherd the saints souls.

But to my registration, no leaders ever responded to Witness Lee's weak late nineties word of correction. The predominate focus on the spirit and the resulting soul neglect and abuse continued much as it had been before he ever spoke this warning.

You can find additional items regarding this problem at my site www.Shepherding.org

P.S.

Great post PS!


It's amazing how we humans can get so caught up in messages from a single source. Many of the saints throughout Christianity are guilty of this.
This is why we/they are suffering from the condition of Psycho-stagnation!

It is so clear in the scriptures (John 13 vs. 12-17) that we must take care of the needs of each other and the lost. Not by literally washing ones feet but meeting there physical and spiritual needs by the cleansing power of The Word and by the everyday caring/loving for the actual needs of the sheep "By His Leading."

How could any group go so long and miss that?
How is it that when WL did speak on that topic nothing happened?

Answer: They the saints were closed/to busy to hear anything else but that which came out of a brothers mouth!

What a shame!

Not that these ones were listening, but that they made a conscious choice to only receive insight from one gift of God. When God had provided so much through all of us gifts. This then caused the whole situation to mutate into something very shallow and dangerous! This behavior can only be likened to one thing.

"Stampeding!"

Here's some verses to consider:

Ezekiel:
17 " 'As for you, my flock, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will judge between one sheep and another, and between rams and goats. 18 Is it not enough for you to feed on the good pasture? Must you also trample the rest of your pasture with your feet? Is it not enough for you to drink clear water? Must you also muddy the rest with your feet? 19 Must my flock feed on what you have trampled and drink what you have muddied with your feet?

20 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says to them: See, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. 21 Because you shove with flank and shoulder, butting all the weak sheep with your horns until you have driven them away, 22 I will save my flock, and they will no longer be plundered. I will judge between one sheep and another. 23 I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. 24 I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I the LORD have spoken.

We as Christians need to become more aware that when we serve The Lord it is no small matter! Where we step and how we step has the potential to affect others in a serious way.

We should also remember how great a Savior/Shepherd we have and not take Him for granted but lean on Him for our every need.

We must also be open to all The Lord has provided.(Every Christian great or small!) otherwise we will reap the fruits of our carelessness and find ourselves eating from the trampled pastures and muddy waters that we treaded through.

In Short, Psychological Damage in the LC and everywhere is caused by looking before leaping and not considering the cost.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by manna-man

[COLOR="DarkGreen"] It is so clear in the scriptures (John 13 vs. 12-17) that we must take care of the needs of each other and the lost. Not by literally washing ones feet but meeting there physical and spiritual needs by the cleansing power of The Word and by the everyday caring/loving for the actual needs of the sheep "By His Leading."

How could any group go so long and miss that?
How is it that when WL did speak on that topic nothing happened?

Answer: They the saints were closed/to busy to hear anything else but that which came out of a brothers mouth!

What a shame!

.....
We as Christians need to become more aware that when we serve The Lord it is no small matter! Where we step and how we step has the potential to affect others in a serious way.

We should also remember how great a Savior/Shepherd we have and not take Him for granted but lean on Him for our every need.

We must also be open to all The Lord has provided.(Every Christian great or small!) otherwise we will reap the fruits of our carelessness and find ourselves eating from the trampled pastures and muddy waters that we treaded through.

Good stuff here & on what P.S. shared.
One of the most difficult things I had to 'overcome' when I began to 'mingle' with Christians outside the LC parameter was being critical and judgmental of them. They prayed differently than I did. The sang differently than I was taught to and of course they DRESSED differently than I did !...and here I was outside the LC for 25 plus years CRITICIZING the way they worshipped, the way they Praised, that they prayed in 'tongues', on & on it went. Yet the Lord would tell me soo loud and clear: SHUT UP and LISTEN ! I'm trying to shed the old wine skin off you! As time went on, I learned to OBEY the Voice of God starting with LISTENING to HIM. This was a HUGE test for me.

We were brainwashed to listen and obey Lee's voice, NOT the Holy Spirit's Voice. As time went on, God sharpened my intuition, my insight and blessed me with Patience. I stepped out on a limb. By Faith, I began to pray in tongues. Do I really know that the Holy Spirit is praying through me in an unknown language. By Faith I have to believe. However, I thank God, I have trained myself and am STILL training myself to Speak the Word of God which is powerful, active, LIVING and Operating in me. Because I speak the Word of God and teach the Word of God, then it is easier for me to believe when I pray in tongues, (ususally when I don't know how to pray about something) I truly trust the Holy Spirit (by telling Him) to pray through me.

Many Christians I know make a big deal about praying in tongues and yet they are not trained to speak the Word of God. What good is it, & how does one truly KNOW that it is the Holy Spirit praying through them, if they never pray and speak the written, ANOINTED, LIVING Word of God ?

One more comment...(hooray ??)

One of the many problems in Lee's teachings was his unbalanced approach. That he emphasized the S/spirit of man was very good but he failed to balance the teaching with the SOUL of man. Our soul is what needs HELP. Lee gave us a ton of scriptures on the spirit part of man (which is biblical) but failed to give us a ton of scriptures on the soul part of man and the physical body of man. (1 Thessalonians 5:23 The Lord sanctify you wholly in spirit, SOUL and BODY.) But it is with our SOUL, we BLESS the LORD. Our mind is in our SOUL, not our 'spirit' and the MIND of our Soul is being RENEWED day by day by the Word of God.

What Lee did was emphasize 'his' church, the 'Lord's Recovery' and the 'spirit'. Before it was called 'the Lord's Recovery', it was Christ and the church. But it was really Christ and Lee's church and slowly but surely it became Lee & the church..to this day.

How I Praise the LORD GOD for His SON, the WORD of GOD and His HOLY SPIRIT who enlightens me and strengthens me in the Power of His Might.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

To Witness Lee's credit, once in the late 1990's he did at least admit to having allowed the "spirit" to become the all-important focus, resulting in a serious neglect of the believer's soul and it's need for proper care and shepherding. Here is that portion.

WL ministered from the Bible for close to 70 years, so of course we can find certain valuable "insights" in his "vast online ministry" at LSM.

But you are missing the point.

There's not a single pastor on earth that does not realize the importance of the believer's soul. How could we have ever reached the point where we have to be reminded of the "importance of the believer's soul." How skewed that ministry must have been all along to arrive at that conclusion. It was WL's ministry, and his ministry alone, that had brought us to that condition, so we didn't just need some "correction," we needed some serious purging in the Recovery. It is the ministry of WL that needed to be purged out as leaven.

And ... why was there an abnormal emphasis on the believer's spirit over the course of many years? The answer is simple. WL's ministry was designed and distorted in order to create zealous followers who placed his ministry above all else. Above their local church, above their jobs, above their families, and even above their own personal walk with the Lord. These followers placed oneness with WL, the so-called "oneness with the ministry," first in their lives and their hearts. This was not accidental. This was forced upon them.

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by Ohio

WL ministered from the Bible for close to 70 years, so of course we can find certain valuable "insights" in his "vast online ministry" at LSM.

But you are missing the point.

It was WL's ministry, and his ministry alone, that had brought us to that condition, so we didn't just need some "correction," we needed some serious purging in the Recovery. It is the ministry of WL that needed to be purged out as leaven.

The answer is simple. WL's ministry was designed and distorted in order to create zealous followers who placed his ministry above all else. Above their local church, above their jobs, above their families, and even above their own personal walk with the Lord. These followers placed oneness with WL, the so-called "oneness with the ministry," first in their lives and their hearts. This was not accidental. This was forced upon them.

Forced? Each step made by every saint that marched with him chose to follow blindly! Chose to hear only him! And chose to run off the figurative cliff.

Thank goodness it was a figurative cliff. Since it was there can be restoration.

To say that WL from the beginning crafted a plan to cause the saints to place his ministry above the Lords is a stretch! Unless you were involved and know beyond a shadow of a doubt.

The fact is the sheep after being officially denominated, nominated a king. Whether they knew what they were doing or not.

Peace.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by manna-man

Forced? Each step made by every saint that marched with him chose to follow blindly! Chose to hear only him! And chose to run off the figurative cliff.

Thank goodness it was a figurative cliff. Since it was there can be restoration.

To say that WL from the beginning crafted a plan to cause the saints to place his ministry above the Lords is a stretch! Unless you were involved and know beyond a shadow of a doubt.

The fact is the sheep after being officially denominated, nominated a king. Whether they knew what they were doing or not.

Peace.

Manna-Man, you may disagree with my thread, and I could debate on each point, but ... if it is really true that God's people were "not forced, chose to follow blindly of their own volition, and chose to jump off the cliff" ... then why would the Lord Jesus, when he toured the land of Judea, continually rebuke the scribes and lawyers and pharisees for being hypocritical and rotten shepherds of God's people ?!?!?

If what you are saying is true, then Jesus would have given them a free pass, and rebuked all those Israelites.

Please explain this to me.

[Paul Cox]

Originally Posted by manna-man

Forced? Each step made by every saint that marched with him chose to follow blindly! Chose to hear only him! And chose to run off the figurative cliff.

Thank goodness it was a figurative cliff. Since it was there can be restoration.

To say that WL from the beginning crafted a plan to cause the saints to place his ministry above the Lords is a stretch! Unless you were involved and know beyond a shadow of a doubt.

The fact is the sheep after being officially denominated, nominated a king. Whether they knew what they were doing or not.

Peace.

Witness Lee may have not "crafted a plan," but it is clear that he believed in the "one man on the earth" thing all the way back in the forties. He stood behind Watchman Nee believing that, while Nee himself believed in no such thing.

It was this stronghold in Witness Lee that allowed such a plan to be crafted. Crafted by whom, you might ask...

I'll just leave it there.

Roger

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Ohio

There's not a single pastor on earth that does not realize the importance of the believer's soul. How could we have ever reached the point where we have to be reminded of the "importance of the believer's soul."

This discussion reminds me of a few verses that I read this morning (ones I heard repeatedly while in the LC). What I noticed was surprising:

Matt. 25:1-2 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.


I was surpised by the Greek explanation for the word translated "wise":



G5429
φρόνιμος
phronimos
fron'-ee-mos


From G5424; thoughtful, that is, sagacious or discreet (implying a cautious character; while G4680 denotes practical skill or acumen; and G4908 indicates rather intelligence or mental acquirement)...


So, it seems the five "wise" were those whose minds were being used and were functioning well ... (not psychologically damaged). I sure don't remember anyone ever pointing this out to us.


Thankful Jane

[OBW]

"C'mon, Jane. You know you have to get out of your mind to follow the Lord and be a faithful virgin."

And therein lies one significant source of psychological damage in the LC.

[Paul Cox]

Leadership must be important. Otherwise, the Lord wouldn't have put such a heavy responsibility for accountability on them. Remember the millstone? I have no problem with leadership, and I have no problem following. But I will no longer follow anyone who tells me that I need to check my individual discernment at the door.

They will praise your wonderful discernment and judgments that led you to their door, but from then on it's "no opinions." If my discernment was good enough to help me put the Catholic Church in perspective, it's also good enough to help me put the Witness Lee Church in perspective.

P.C.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Roger

Leadership must be important. Otherwise, the Lord wouldn't have put such a heavy responsibility for accountability on them. Remember the millstone? I have no problem with leadership, and I have no problem following. But I will no longer follow anyone who tells me that I need to check my individual discernment at the door.

They will praise your wonderful discernment and judgments that led you to their door, but from then on it's "no opinions." If my discernment was good enough to help me put the Catholic Church in perspective, it's also good enough to help me put the Witness Lee Church in perspective.

P.C.

I do believe that godly leaders are absolutely of the Lord. And in this regard, I am not hung up on their "perfection," or the lack of failure. What I do condemn in the leaders is exactly what the Bible condemns -- those who hurt God's people, those who are in it for base gain, and those who love the glory of men.

Personally, I never considered myself much of a dynamic leader, but rather a willing supporter. Oftentimes I felt that I was able to accomplish so much in diverse ways for the benefit of the church. If that's a so-called "follower," so be it. The Bible does speak of the gifts of "helps and administrations," as blessings to the body of Christ. A healthy church needs far more than an eloquent "tongue."

This is why I have long resisted any categorical condemnation upon so many precious saints in the LC's for "following blindly." Many of them are my friends and family. They came into the LC's because the Lord led them, and they remained in the LC's because someone cares for them. Their relationships with the saints is the "glue" that keeps them. Since then, things have turned sour, the ministry got crazy, the Blindeds have misaimed, and the local leaders have wrong allegiances, but I will always place the higher responsibility on the leaders than the saints.

Just because some leaders are bad, doesn't mean we should not have leaders in the body of Christ.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Roger

They will praise your wonderful discernment and judgments that led you to their door, but from then on it's "no opinions." If my discernment was good enough to help me put the Catholic Church in perspective, it's also good enough to help me put the Witness Lee Church in perspective.

P.C.

You've never said it better, Paul.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Roger

They will praise your wonderful discernment and judgments that led you to their door, but from then on it's "no opinions." If my discernment was good enough to help me put the Catholic Church in perspective, it's also good enough to help me put the Witness Lee Church in perspective.

It's also amazing how they treat the new arrivals so differently from the departures.

Years ago my wife was a part of a small SW LC. They would lay out the red carpet for any saints moving to their place, but there was no way they would return that favor for those leaving or moving away. The elders would publicly and privately manipulate those who would even think about it.

When my wife finally moved away, just after the chaos of the quarantine of Ingalls and others, she left secretly and silently, in the middle of the night. Then all the saints wondered, "why did she do that?" Duh ......

[FoundHim]

I just looked at this site for the first time in many months. I can hardly believe that the thread I started on the Psych. damage in the LC was still showing up.
The great God of the universe has in His most Mighty way delivered me from all of that.
How can a person who was So bitter and angry, change? Only by God's grace. Truly it is not just words. He has made me a new person. I am so grateful to Him for taking the anger, the terrible memories and hurt, away. He gets ALL the glory.
I never believed I would be in this place today. I believed I would die a bitter person. I could never understand how so many others left the LC and were doing ok. I thought I would Never be that person.
We currently fellowship with a group in a Baptist church. The Lord through 8 years of drawing me, and changing my heart, has opened up fellowship I could only dream of. We are truly encouraged by this community of believers who truly love the Word and teach the truth.
I actually can see even more how divisive the LC is. The near idol worship of Witness Lee is very sad. It is So good to be on the other side, with peace in my heart, and pursuing the Lord only, and not a set of doctrines and practices.
Some of you will remember me as "Searching" on the other forum.
I can only say - it is all of Him!

[Cal]

Searching/FoundHim! It's so great to hear that you've been restored! Praise God! I'm so happy for you. I know we had some talks and you were feeling pretty low a few years ago. But it's wonderful to see the "new you." Take care and God bless!

[countmeworthy]

Hi FoundHim/Searching !

To God be all the Praise, Glory and Thanksgiving for healing your heart and healing your wounds.

Did your hubby also leave the LC for good now ? How 'bout your daughter ? They must be doing very well for you sound absolutely filled with happy bubbles of Joy !

Carol

Originally Posted by FoundHim

I just looked at this site for the first time in many months. I can hardly believe that the thread I started on the Psych. damage in the LC was still showing up.
The great God of the universe has in His most Mighty way delivered me from all of that.
How can a person who was So bitter and angry, change? Only by God's grace. Truly it is not just words. He has made me a new person. I am so grateful to Him for taking the anger, the terrible memories and hurt, away. He gets ALL the glory.
I never believed I would be in this place today. I believed I would die a bitter person. I could never understand how so many others left the LC and were doing ok. I thought I would Never be that person.
We currently fellowship with a group in a Baptist church. The Lord through 8 years of drawing me, and changing my heart, has opened up fellowship I could only dream of. We are truly encouraged by this community of believers who truly love the Word and teach the truth.
I actually can see even more how divisive the LC is. The near idol worship of Witness Lee is very sad. It is So good to be on the other side, with peace in my heart, and pursuing the Lord only, and not a set of doctrines and practices.
Some of you will remember me as "Searching" on the other forum.
I can only say - it is all of Him!

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by FoundHim

0I would ask that whoever would like ,would help me start a list of concise damage that the LC does to one psychologically. Could be related to spiritual damage, or just plain "mind pain"... I have Christian friends who just have No idea what a group that is "abusive" causes to one's psyche... I hope we will keep it concise - even a list would be good if anyone has one pertaining to helping others understand. Quotes from brothers would be a help as well... Can you help me?

The following ebook by Dr. Steven Lambert should offer some help. Although it was not written with the Local Church specifically in mind, the examples he uses are amazingly similar to what is seen in the LCs. I think Chapter Nine should be especially helpful.

Charismatic Captivation

Authoritarian Abuse & Psychological Enslavement in Neo-Pentecostal Churches
Second Edition - © Copyright 2003 by Steven Lambert, ThD

Table Of Contents
CHAPTER 1 INTRODUCTION: THE PROBLEM, PREDICTION, & PREMISE .... 1
CHAPTER 2 THE DISCIPLESHIP/SHEPHERDING MOVEMENT ...................21
CHAPTER 3 NICOLAITANISM .................................................. ....... 43
CHAPTER 4 ERRONEOUS CONCEPT#1: AUTHORITY ............................ 57
CHAPTER 5 ERRONEOUS CONCEPT #2: “SPIRITUAL COVERING” ............ 89
CHAPTER 6 ERRONEOUS CONCEPT #3: “UNITY” ............................... 125
CHAPTER 7 ERRONEOUS CONCEPT #4: ROLE OF THE LAITY ................ 163
CHAPTER 8 ERRONEOUS CONCEPT #5: ROLE OF FIVEFOLD MINISTERS .. 195
CHAPTER 9 THE SIGNS OF AUTHORITARIAN ABUSE &
COMMON CONTROL MECHANISMS .................................................. 233
CHAPTER 10 RELIGIOUS ENSLAVEMENT: SORCERY .... ........................ 253
CHAPTER 11 THE ILLEGITIMACY OF RELIGIOUS ENSLAVEMENT ............. 269
CHAPTER 12 THE 15 “RS” OF RECOVERY FROM AUTHORITARIAN ABUSE .. 291

An excerpt from Chapter Nine follows [pg 245]:

2. Fear and Intimidation Projection
"In these hyper-authoritarian groups wherein there is a culture of
domination and control, members are psychologically traumatized and
indoctrinated with numerous fears and phobias aimed at keeping them
reeling in diffidence and dependence on their leaders and the corporate
group. So intense are these fears and phobias that departing members
commonly suffer from various psychological problems and even clinical
neuroses, and some even display the classic symptoms associated with
Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). Following their departure or
separation from the group, in addition to deliverance from demonic
incursion, many have a need for some form of psychological counseling.
The following are some of the fears the leadership of these groups foster
and project upon their adherents as a form of subjugation."

Sub-points under "Fear and Intimidation Projection"

A. Fear of Open Censure and Rebuke.
B. Fear of Disapproval and Rejection.
C. Fear of Denunciation and Disgrace Upon Departure.
D. Fear of Excommunication.
E. Fear of Judgment.
F. Fear of Failure.
G. Fear of Lost or Invalid Salvation.

I hope this resource is helpful in forming a list of symptoms.

P.S.

[Conval]

@countmeworthy :
thank you for replying
it's people like you that's encourage me to continue reading the Bible,
i was ready to give up the faith.
i hope in time i will be able to attend church again.

[countmeworthy]

WOW Conval !

I hardly frequent this site anymore ! The forum simply came to my mind right now to see what's new.

Your reply sooo encouraged ME !!! I've been needing a BOOST lately as at times, I feel so alone as a Christian. I don't go to 'church' anymore. Wayy too many people lavish their praises on their 'pastor'. That said, I do fellowship with Christians almost daily and on Thursday evenings I have been meeting with a group of about 8 people for prayer and fellowship. That is the only time I have fellowship with these people too. Isn't that strange ? I have been meeting with them for 6 yrs. Once or twice a year, we have dinner together at someone's home. Aside from that, we don't fellowship outside our Thursday evening gatherings.

Sometimes the Presence of God is very strong among us and sometimes His Presence is not felt at all even though we are praying and fellowshipping.

The group all attend the same 'church'...a church I stopped attending about 3 years ago. I have not told them I don't go there anymore (or anywhere). I suspect they know I don't. They don't ask me and I don't tell. They are very comfy in that environment and feel their 'pastor' is soooooo 'anointed'. They kind of lift him up the way the LSM lifts up 'brother lee'. This is a common practice among church goers. The diehards lift up their pastors in the same way the diehard LCrs lift up Lee.

Don't get me wrong. I have gotten great insight from pastors teachings of the Word of God from the pulpit. But I think it is very dangerous when people pledge their allegiance to a 'church' under a particular pastor. That is one of many reasons I have stopped attending that 'church' and 'church' altogether.

So if you are led to go 'to church', follow the Spirit of God in your spirit. Just be careful. We are living in the Laodician age. We are living in the age of Apostasy as well. But this is GOOD news ! The scriptures tell us when these things begin to happen, when nation turns against nation, when earthquakes happen in various places ( Haiti, Christchurch, New Zealand, Japan), look up for our Redemption draws nigh. All Praise and Glory to our King Jesus Who is, Who was and Who is coming again ! No more sickness, sorrow, no more tears..no more deception ! No more sin..no more death. Come Lord Jesus.

Pray for discernment. I too am praying for discernment ! I NEED it just as much as all the beloved saints of God need it. I will keep you in my prayers and I mean it !!!

Carol

[Conval]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

WOW Conval !

I hardly frequent this site anymore ! The forum simply came to my mind right now to see what's new.

@countmeworthy
i rarely go to this site either

when i read about lee, all bad memories come to mind.
i thought he's human, i always wonder why LC treat him like a god? never criticize him.. to them all he did is right.. so other church treat their pastor the same? hmm i guess i have to be careful in choosing a church..(and pray for discernment)

no wonder they hate me.. i didn't know this before, i criticized LC in front of a sister(not even at lee directly, all i said was that i didn't believe everyone have to be in FTT)... just then i know how they react to critics... i was then alienated by them...i still pass them on the street or supermarket, they won't speak to me anymore, and just keep staring at me maybe i should have keep my mouth shut??

i just quit LC 1 month ago... not going to church at sunday feels weird to me...but going to LC doesn't feels right anymore...it's depressing

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by Conval

when i read about lee, all bad memories come to mind.
i thought he's human, i always wonder why LC treat him like a god? never criticize him.. to them all he did is right.. so other church treat their pastor the same? hmm i guess i have to be careful in choosing a church..(and pray for discernment)

Brother, other churches do NOT treat their Pastors the way Lee is treated by the members of LSM's church. Other churches know their Pastors are men, some gifted by the spirit as Pastors, others not so. Some Pastors with a right relationship with God, and some wolves in sheeps clothing... but other churches do not deify their Pastors... only cults do that.

To be honest, while I always saw that there was too much "uplifting" of Lee, I never realized the heights to which he has been uplifted already... honestly, LSM is well on it's way to "deifying" him; and I honestly mean that.

There are two sisters that I have fellowshipped with here; and on separate occassions, finally cornered, both expressed the same opinion... an opinion I think they never would have expressed had they not been pressed on the issue. What they both said was that Lee's word was the Word of God.

What does that mean? It means that EVERYTHING Lee ever said is unquestionable. It's a grave sin if you disbelieve it - and you will be in jeopardy. It means that those who "opposed" Lee, or LSM by transitive property, oppose GOD. It means that they no longer really believe that there are "other Christians" out there... The only "real" Christians are in LSM's churches. It means that unless the Lord opens these poor peoples eyes to the Truth, they will NOT see their true condition nor the condition of movement they are a part of. They will close their eyes, stop up their ears, and shout "Lord JESUS!" to drown you out.

Unfortunately, they have forgotten the Lord's Word in Matthew 7:22-23

"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS."

What is it to practice Lawlessness? Well, upon what does the Entire Law and Prophets hinge?

Luke 10:27-28 "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF...DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE."

And do those in the LSM churches practice such a Love? They are constantly shouting out for all to hear: 'Lord JESUS we LOVE You!' - but is that really true? My Lord said:

John 14:23-24
"If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me."

To keep His Word, you must love as He loved. Selflessly. Love not just the brother or sister beside you in the church who would surely repay you anything you paid them - but love also the poor sinner who falls by the way; love not just the victim but the accused, love not just your friends but also your enemies. Do they do that, as a group I mean - not speaking of individual saints. Are they taught this kind of the love by their leaders?

I have never heard of the LSM church gathering support for the victims in Japan, for those dying of cholera in Haiti, or even for the poor on their own streets in their own cities. This is absolutely foreign to them. Even a 'love feast' is done behind closed doors, for members of the local church... but why not invite in the people who really need food, and minister Christ to them? Perhaps because there is precious little of Christ left to minister in the Local Churches. Perhaps because they didn't just close their doors on the world, they also closed them on Him.

In Christ,

NeitherFirstnorLast

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Conval

all i said was that i didn't believe everyone have to be in FTT)... just then i know how they react to critics... i was then alienated by them...i still pass them on the street or supermarket, they won't speak to me anymore, and just keep staring at me maybe i should have keep my mouth shut??

i just quit LC 1 month ago... not going to church at sunday feels weird to me...but going to LC doesn't feels right anymore...it's depressing

I have given the same advice. A brother I've known since his birth, I told the FTTA is not for everyone. He should go because he wants to and not because of peer pressure.
A concept that needs to be dropped is the LC being a special place. In the city where you live, it is just one more option to assemble with on Sunday mornings.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Conval

no wonder they hate me.. i didn't know this before, i criticized LC in front of a sister(not even at lee directly, all i said was that i didn't believe everyone have to be in FTT)... just then i know how they react to critics... i was then alienated by them...i still pass them on the street or supermarket, they won't speak to me anymore, and just keep staring at me maybe i should have keep my mouth shut??

Last week I read what a reverend in Florida did in burning the quran. He may serve his church, but the incident of burning a quran was of the flesh. It is not indicative of our Christian faith.
Likewise the shunning you received conval was product of the flesh. That was not part of Jesus' ministry.
If the saints in the local churches where you used to meet value Witness Lee's ministry so highly, they ought to read his book A Word of Love...Just maybe his ministry might impact how they respond to fellow members of the Body.

"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,"
Matthew 5:44