"That They May Be One, Even As We Are One" - by TAS

[kisstheson]

Dear brothers and sisters,

I have been burdened for a long time now to begin a thread like this. The messages spoken by dear brother TAS in Manila, the Philippines, from January 30, 1964 to March 12, 1964 are a real treasure for all believers in Christ. The transcripts of these 42 spoken messages can be found in two volumes (both of which are free upon request from Emmanuel Church in Tulsa, OK) entitled "That They May Be One, Even As We Are One".

I envision this thread to be a sort of "blog", containing my thoughts, reflections, and meditations as I read through these 42 messages spoken by TAS, interspersed with comments and questions from you dear ones.

A rich nugget in the book's introduction concerns dear brother TAS's realization that "the enemy is set upon destroying anything that will result in the Lord Jesus coming into His full place." TAS knew that a great cost is required from all those who would participate in allowing the Lord His right to come into His full place. TAS knew that he himself and his ministry must never become such an important issue to the believers that they become a device used by the enemy to divide and destroy God's people, and that he and his ministry must never become something that competes with the Lord Jesus for His full place. TAS said this: "I am sure that you will never make me or my ministry a ground of division. There is no need to fight for me; the Lord is on the Throne, and He can order things to His Own Will - while we pray and trust Him."

What a blessed beginning!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by kisstheson

Dear brothers and sisters,

I have been burdened for a long time now to begin a thread like this. The messages spoken by dear brother TAS in Manila, the Philippines, from January 30, 1964 to March 12, 1964 are a real treasure for all believers in Christ. The transcripts of these 42 spoken messages can be found in two volumes (both of which are free upon request from Emmanuel Church in Tulsa, OK) entitled "That They May Be One, Even As We Are One".

My first reaction is shock. Whoa ... wait a minute, folks.

I'm not a TAS scholar by any means, in fact, I know next to nothing about him, but I was told repeatedly by WL for many years, that TAS violated "God's government" by speaking against "the ground' in Taipei during the 50's, causing a terrible rebellion.

I suppose my real question is this: did the anointing of the Spirit leave TAS as I have been made to believe?

[YP0534]

I'm no TAS scholar either, Ohio, but my recent impression has been that TAS had a balancing word for the exclusive tendancies of the Local Church which Lee rejected at the time. In October 1984, Lee settled upon blaming TAS for all the decline in the localities over all the ensuing years, especially in Taiwan.

The report that I read was that TAS wanted every gathering of believers in a locality be be considered "a" church while WL wanted only a proper gathering, which should be called "the" church. Seems like neither of them precisely got it.

For Lee, the proof of the annointing was the increase, which happened for him but apparently not so much for TAS. I don't agree with that, though, because it seems pretty clear that the genuine increase comes from the genuine one accord. Much of Lee's increase had mostly to do with his organizational skills.

PS: I always appreciated the background discussions to be found here http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showthread.php?t=38345

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by YP0534

I'm no TAS scholar either, Ohio, but my recent impression has been that TAS had a balancing word for the exclusive tendancies of the Local Church which Lee rejected at the time. In October 1984, Lee settled upon blaming TAS for all the decline in the localities over all the ensuing years, especially in Taiwan.

I do remember that. WL talked about Taipei history. The beginning was glorious hundredfold increase in 5 years. Then TAS ruined it all, and WL came to the USA. Now he was going back to Taipei. He needed a person to blame for all the problems there.

TC had a book written about TAS. Has anyone read that?

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I do remember that. WL talked about Taipei history. The beginning was glorious hundredfold increase in 5 years. Then TAS ruined it all, and WL came to the USA. Now he was going back to Taipei. He needed a person to blame for all the problems there.

Honestly, it's probably a little harsh to say he needed a scapegoat (although I myself have said it.) I think this is just the way he saw it and when I see it through his eyes, as I was trained at one point to do, I can see how he came to that conclusion and it makes perfect sense in all the right ways.

EXCEPT one.

Oneness.

Rather than contend for the oneness of the Spirit, Lee just decided to cut TAS off to preserve his own concept of oneness. In Lee's mind, the damage was already done, however, and it would take a great work of God to repair the damage. Lee never could see how he himself had been divisive over the very issue of oneness - the ground of locality.

Those brothers in the Local Church today have the same blindness and they will condemn anyone who speaks differently about their blindness. They just keep insisting that we all must see it their way. The thing is, the folks around here, we actually have seen it their way and, at least some of us, can now see further than that. I'd say from what I've read about this event that TAS was probably a little off doctrinally but TAS was more interested in recognizing and promoting the oneness of the believers whereas Lee was more concerned with the oneness of the doctrine and a practical oneness based upon that.

Which side was more likely to produce the Lord's intended results in the long run? I'm not sure I can say but it's certainly not as easy as just saying to stick with "the ministry"...

[OBW]

Originally Posted by YP0534

EXCEPT one.

Oneness.

Talk about getting to the heart of the matter!

Well said.

[kisstheson]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I do remember that. WL talked about Taipei history. The beginning was glorious hundredfold increase in 5 years. Then TAS ruined it all, and WL came to the USA. Now he was going back to Taipei. He needed a person to blame for all the problems there.

TC had a book written about TAS. Has anyone read that?

Hello dear brothers Ohio and YP0534,

Thank you for your thoughts on TAS and Lee. And to think that I was afraid that this thread was going to languish in an obscure corner of cyber-space! It really does appear that Lee's decision to not co-work with TAS raises some very, very, important issues. I personally believe that this decision by Lee was a big step toward the LC eventually becoming exclusively "of Lee". It took several decades more to advance to where it is today, but a big step in the wrong direction was taken back in the late 1950's/early 1960's in the events related to TAS.

Just to head off some criticism that I received over on "that other forum", I do not believe that TAS was "the minister of the age" during his lifetime. I am most definitely not looking to replace one "minister of the age" with another. If not "the minister of the age" then what TAS? A fallible, but very gifted, minister of Christ whose portion really was rather unique and whose portion groups like the LC ignore to their own detriment and loss.

I have to get back to work, but one more quick comment: TC's son-in-law, Rex Beck, did write a biography of TAS. You can order a copy of it (here). The book is not based upon first-hand experience with TAS, but is based upon some interviews with dear ones who knew TAS and upon the "Letters from the Editor" that TAS always included in his monthly "A Witness and a Testimony" magazine. TAS was very open and transparent in these "Letters from the Editor" and dear brother Beck was able to learn quite a lot about TAS this way. The book is essential reading for anyone who desires to read a presentation of TAS's life story from something other than the official LSM viewpoint.

[Admin]

Previously lost thread -

Originally Posted by kisstheson

Dear brothers and sisters,

I have been burdened for a long time now to begin a thread like this. The messages spoken by dear brother TAS in Manila, the Philippines, from January 30, 1964 to March 12, 1964 are a real treasure for all believers in Christ. The transcripts of these 42 spoken messages can be found in two volumes (both of which are free upon request from Emmanuel Church in Tulsa, OK) entitled "That They May Be One, Even As We Are One".

I envision this thread to be a sort of "blog", containing my thoughts, reflections, and meditations as I read through these 42 messages spoken by TAS, interspersed with comments and questions from you dear ones.

A rich nugget in the book's introduction concerns dear brother TAS's realization that "the enemy is set upon destroying anything that will result in the Lord Jesus coming into His full place." TAS knew that a great cost is required from all those who would participate in allowing the Lord His right to come into His full place. TAS knew that he himself and his ministry must never become such an important issue to the believers that they become a device used by the enemy to divide and destroy God's people, and that he and his ministry must never become something that competes with the Lord Jesus for His full place. TAS said this: "I am sure that you will never make me or my ministry a ground of division. There is no need to fight for me; the Lord is on the Throne, and He can order things to His Own Will - while we pray and trust Him."

What a blessed beginning!

[awareness]

kisstheson:
>> TAS said this: "I am sure that you will never make me or my ministry a ground of division. There is no need to fight for me; the Lord is on the Throne, and He can order things to His Own Will - while we pray and trust Him."
<<

Now there's a brother the knows his proper standing, and that of his ministry, before the Lord.

How refreshing.....

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

TAS : "the enemy is set upon destroying anything that will result in the Lord Jesus coming into His full place... I am sure that you will never make me or my ministry a ground of division. There is no need to fight for me; the Lord is on the Throne, and He can order things to His Own Will - while we pray and trust Him."

Harold: Now there's a brother the knows his proper standing, and that of his ministry, before the Lord.

I am becoming convinced that the great and original error is simply not knowing one's place, and subsequently going beyond the boundaries God has set for each of us in His creation. Each created object has a limit; only God is the One who "fills all in all", whose "kingdom shall increase without end". Every created, semi-autonomous decision-making agent must function within prescribed limits.

Verse 6 of Jude's epistle is "more than crucial", as WL might say, in understanding this principle. It establishes a basis for determination which goes from the original pre-adamic spiritual entities, including Lucifer and his fallen angels, to the fall of man in the first garden, to humans both chosen and not (see the Nebuchadnezzar; see David in his numbering of Israel and gazing upon Bathsheba, etc, etc) right up through the Gospels and the whole NT.

I am thinking that YP was on to something when he said that the post-resurrection decline perhaps began when the brothers selected substitutions (i.e. deacons) in the serving of food in Acts chapter 6. Compare this with kts' recently cited (post #63) Luke Chapter 10, verse 1, where Jesus sent people before Him, where He was about to go. You can underline, bold, colorize, italize that last part: "where He was about to go". He didn't send them somewhere He didn't want to go. He didn't say, "I am going to go pray and study scriptures. You guys go do the grunt work." No, He always led them before His face.

When Jesus fed the thousands, He Himself broke the bread; He didn't get others to do it for Him, saying that He had more important "spiritual" work to do. He chose assistants, yes, but not substitutes. The brothers in Acts 6 chose substitutes.

Lee also went beyond his measure. The result has been a scattering of the flock. Lawsuits of brother against brother, GLA saints and Brazilian saints getting disfellowshipped, and more calamities to come, I am sure.

Sparks, as Awareness said, "knew his proper standing"... and let God do the ordering according to His own sovereign will. Sparks stayed within his allotted boundaries, as have Moody, Graham, and many other dear servants whose ministries didn't result in havoc among the saints.

[awareness]

Aron:
>> Sparks, as Awareness said, "knew his proper standing"... <<

But didn't Lee say that Sparks didn't know his standing, which was submitting to Lee's ministry? Didn't Lee say that the Lord's blessing left Sparks, because he didn't submit? Am I wrong, or off base here?

[kisstheson]

Dear ones, beloved in Christ,

First of all, I want to thank dear brother UntoHim for taking the time to investigate why this thread disappeared, and also for doing whatever it took to bring this thread back to life. For me and for all of us - Thank you, dear brother, UntoHim.

Dear brothers aron and awareness – I have really enjoyed the recent posts by both of you. Here is my understanding of what transpired between TAS and WL, and this whole idea that “the blessing left TAS”:

TAS made two visits to Taiwan in the 1950’s, once in November and December of 1955 and a second visit in February and March of 1957. According to those present in 1955, all the speaking by TAS and dear brother Angus Kinnear during that first visit was very enlightening and very helpful. Before the second visit, some of WL’s young co-workers were beginning to “dissent” from WL and a “rebellion” was brewing. In the co-worker gatherings with TAS during the 1957 visit, these young ones several times asked TAS some very leading questions regarding highly sensitive matters where TAS and WL did not agree (i.e. “the ground of the church”). Not surprisingly, these young co-workers took TAS’s speaking as a reason to widen their split with WL. In summary, there already was a problem in Taiwan, and it existed before TAS ever arrived for this second visit in 1957.

After his visit to Taiwan in 1957, TAS invited WL to come to Honor Oak in London to conduct a three-day conference in early August of 1958. WL and TAS met up again in Kilcreggan, Scotland, on August 18, 1958. This was the beginning of two weeks of fellowship together. It was during this two-week period of fellowship that TAS supposedly told WL something to the effect that once the plane TAS was on left Taipei in 1957, the ‘flow’ from God left TAS, and it had not returned, right up until that very day (i.e. August of 1958).

I am not sure how it started, but an expanded version of this story came to be part of the LSM/LC “mythology”. When I first touched the LC decades ago, I was told very clearly in a home meeting that once TAS resisted the “ground of the church” in 1957, the flow of God left him for good and never returned to him. This, of course, implied that the 'flow' left TAS all the way until TAS's death in 1971. I heard this same version of the story many times after that. I will give WL the benefit of the doubt that he accurately reported TAS’s words in August of 1958. The problem is, something got added during all the respeakings of WL's words.

After having read brother Herald Hsu' testimony, several accounts by WL of these events (in The Vision of the Age and Life-Study of Colossians), the biography of TAS by brother James Reetzke, the biography of TAS by brother Rex Beck, and almost all of TAS’s messages spoken in the 1960’s, I have come to a conclusion on this matter. I do believe that TAS was under the chastisement of the Lord for some time after his visit to Taiwan in 1957. I believe TAS was too naïve and allowed himself to be used as a pawn in the conflict between WL and the younger co-workers. TAS certainly had a real spirit of being a "sheep among wolves". He also had a real spirit of being "innocent as a dove". But he appeared to have had a lack in the area of being “wise as a serpent” (see Matthew 10:16). TAS should definitely have been more discerning before he spoke so frankly to WL and the co-workers. Could he not see that he was “sitting on a powder keg” which was ready to explode? For this, I can see why he experienced a dry time in his walk with the Lord which lasted at least until August of 1958.

Having said that, I see no evidence that this loss of the ‘flow’ from God lasted all the way until TAS’s death in 1971. Not even close. TAS makes many mentions of precious, intimate, experiences of a ‘flow’ from Christ in his speakings and his writings during the 1960’s and very early 1970's. During this period, he experienced the real shining of a “rhema” word from the Lord many times. Also during this period, he experienced very definite leadings from the Lord, either to go forward or to wait. He also experienced conviction from the Lord. TAS was not boastful; rather, he simply spoke of these things in a very natural way, believing that these experiences were the common inheritance of every born-again believer. In these messages spoken in the Philippines early in 1964, TAS makes several references to times when he experienced the ‘flow’ from God. Please see my previous post, post # 15, for an example of such an experience by both TAS and his wife.

Interestingly, in these messages spoken in the Philippines, TAS makes mention of a somewhat lengthy experience of the Lord’s chastisement. Perhaps he is speaking of his experience from the late 1950’s? I will try to find the exact quote where TAS mentioned this experience and post it here in this thread.