Toxic Faith, Arterburn & Felton

[Nell]

11 Characteristics of a toxic faith system:

1. Religious addiction is developed in a toxic faith system. The following characteristics differentiate it from systems, churches, and ministries committed to growing people in faith and developing their relationship with God

2. "Special" claims
a. The leaders of toxic faith systems claim a special pipeline to God which places them at a level above all the others in the church which creates an atmosphere of unapproachability. The leader can use this superiority to manipulate the followers who either believe and obey or suffer the consequences

b. In the toxic system, the minister will set him/herself up as having a special destiny or mission that can be performed by no one else. This special anointing or calling many times is nothing more than the pathological need to be valued or esteemed. He/she can also posture special powers from God like the ability to supernaturally heal

c. The victimized followers, seeking a closer relationship with God but focusing more on the addicted leader than on God, lose contact with God and often fall away from faith permanently. Misguided loyalty allows the delusions of the leader to grow and destroys the faith of the loyal
The only hope for everyone involved is for the leader who claims to be God's special officer to be forced into accountability or dethroned to protect other potential victims.

3. Authoritarianism
a. Churches and ministries are started and grown through the vision of a strong leader. The authoritarian leader comes to power because a driven personality accompanies talent and charisma. A toxic system arises when that leader moves into a free rein style with no real accountability. Often, this ministry is the first experience of authority for the leader

b. Those who work in this setting find themselves either agreeing with the direction of the ministry or leaving. There is no room for compromise since the dictatorial leader believes that everyone should submit to his rule without question. Those who fear for their jobs or feel they may not be able to find similar jobs will comply with the leader rather than challenge certain decisions or actions that appear to be wrong. The leader and the people, therefore, mutually deny their accountability structures and wave the option of having safeguards in the system

4. An "Us Versus Them" Mentality ...

There are several links to resources based on this book including a "Self-Test".

Nell

[Nell]

There are 10 "Rules" of a Toxic Faith system, according to the authors' opinion.

#1. Control - The Leader must be in control at all times.
#2. Blame - When problems arise, find a guilty party to blame immediatly.
#3. Perfectionism - Don't make mistkes.
#4. Delusion - Never point out the reality of a situation.
#5. Perpetual Cheerfulness - Never express your feelings unless they are positive.
#6. Blind loyalty - Don't ask questions, especially if they are tough ones.
#7. Conformity - Don't do anything outside your role.
#8. Mistrust - Don't trust anyone.
#9. Avarice - Nothing is more important than giving money to the organization.
#10. Spotless Image - At all costs, keep up the image of the organization or the family.

[SpeakersCorner]

Nell,

I'm watching the opening of the Olympics as I type and I can't help but marvel at both the incredible corporate expression of the Chinese people with its exquisite beauty and the dark secrets hidden beneath the surface of China's past ... and present.

What a paradox.

I write this here because, as I read your list of toxins, I couldn't help but think some of them are simply a part of the nature of people, not the fallen nature but just the nature. We Americans would use a term like "Blind loyalty" but I'm sure these thousands of Chinese youth dancing in such incredible coordination would never think for a moment there was anything bad about their loyalty -- or conformity -- to the culture.

So my point is that while I agree with you that many of these traits are indeed toxic (I'm taking some perverse satisfaction in watching Joel Osteen's wife squirm under the spotlight which relates to your last point), some of them are simply differences between cultures.

Would you agree with that?


SC

[Paul Cox]

Speaker,

Differences between cultures is not an issue here. If the shoe (ten points) fits, then a group should wear it, no matter how much need we feel to perserve some aspect of that group.

Roger

[OBW]

The problem with some of these points is, just as SC has pointed out, they exist at some level all over society without there being any cult, aberration, or abuse. The problem is in degrees.

There is a greater discussion than the condition of the LC going on in Christianity concerning the so-called “Emerging Church” movement and more significantly the “Emergent” subset of that. I read a book recently that, in James Fennimore Cooper style, listed a page and a half of potential characteristics (all in one sentence) that are indicative of Emerging churches. Every church in America, no, in the world fits into some of these, even the LC. But most are not Emerging Churches.

The same applies to many of the statements Nell has provided. The problem is that finding some evidence of an item or two on the list does not create proof of abuse, or a cult. It requires evidence of a level of such trait(s) in which abuse is actually in play.

Tiger Woods has a following that probably qualifies as a personality cult at some level. But they are not going to burn the clubhouse at PebbleBeach when Woods doesn’t win, or riot in the streets when he does. It takes more than a label for it to have the meaning we seek to establish.

That is our job. It is not to apply the label at any level, but to establish that it is, or is not at a sufficient enough level to warrant concern, or some negative label.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by OBW

The problem with some of these points is, just as SC has pointed out, they exist at some level all over society without there being any cult, aberration, or abuse. The problem is in degrees.

...The same applies to many of the statements Nell has provided. The problem is that finding some evidence of an item or two on the list does not create proof of abuse, or a cult. It requires evidence of a level of such trait(s) in which abuse is actually in play.

...That is our job. It is not to apply the label at any level, but to establish that it is, or is not at a sufficient enough level to warrant concern, or some negative label.

Mike,

I can concede the existance of these 10 items in culture. There is no argument here. I can also concede the existance of these 10 items as a whole and/or in part in multiple levels of society and culture.

However, that these 10 items exist in the church is the more compelling topic, and is in fact the point of the book. It was never my intention to put these 10 items out for discussion apart from the context of book. It is certainly your liberty to do so, but that would need a new thread.

If you haven't read the book, we have two choices:

1) Read the book then discuss the 10 items in context.
2) Discuss the 10 items as another topic, apart from the book "Toxic Faith" by Arterbern and Felton.

"Toxic Faith" was very helpful to me to understand what happened to me and how I was derailed in my walk with the Lord. I highly recommend the book to those who are reading this forum who were just like me: hurt, confused, and full of guilt and self-blame for the mess I had made of my life.

Nell

[Nell]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Nell,

...So my point is that while I agree with you that many of these traits are indeed toxic .... some of them are simply differences between cultures.

Would you agree with that?


SC

SC,

Sorry, I mostly don't agree with you in the context of the book "Toxic Faith". I understand what you're saying, but this book is not about toxic culture. It's about toxic faith.

Cultures are what they are; faith is another matter. There are people of faith in every culture. God's word is definitive for "faith" or "the faith" regardless of culture. Faith is based on another life indwelling the hearts of men and living by that life regardless of the cultural background of the believer.

Fallen men come along and take advantage of the believer's faith in Jesus Christ. These fallen men may be men of faith, but there is a pattern to their behavior that has become toxic to those who trust in the leadership of men rather than God...often innocently.

Technically speaking, in the context of Christian faith, the words "toxic" and "faith", are mutually exclusive in the same way that "spiritual" and "abuse" are mutually exclussive.

Nell

Originally Posted by Roger

Speaker,

Differences between cultures is not an issue here. If the shoe (ten points) fits, then a group should wear it, no matter how much need we feel to perserve some aspect of that group.

Roger

Roger,

Whatever is of God will remain. Everything else, including group think, can go away. That's pretty much the attitude that I took when I left the LC. I wiped the slate clean. If any particular "thing" made it back into my life as a belief, it had to be a clear teaching of the Bible and I had to be convinced in my own mind by the Lord's leading.

It's like the shows on HGTV. Before they remodel a room, they strip it bare. Walls, floors, ceilings, furniture, clutter...everything goes. Poor example, but it works for me. Everything that makes it back into my room actually belongs there...by God's design.

Nell

[SpeakersCorner]

Nell,

Since I haven't read the book (and most likely won't), I should probably just excuse myself from this discussion. But I would like to take up one point you brought up. You said,

God's word is definitive for "faith" or "the faith" regardless of culture. Faith is based on another life indwelling the hearts of men and living by that life regardless of the cultural background of the believer.

I am reading Tim Keller's book, "The Reason for God." He makes the strong point that Christianity is unique among religions of the world in that it has no single culture. It adapts to whatever culture it comes to. Nigel Tomes in his latest writing/speaking has been addressing this matter of God being 'translatable' to whatever culture it comes.

Doesn't faith, as you speak of it here, have this same trait, that it can fit itself into whatever culture it comes? For instance, in superstitious cultures, faith often uses that trait to reveal some of God's supernatural action. In intellectual cultures (or sub-cultures), faith can emerge as a result of thought and study. Witness C.S. Lewis, Lee Stroebel, and others.

I'll follow this thread. Perhaps I will find it worthwhile to read the book.


SC

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

......(I'm taking some perverse satisfaction in watching Joel Osteen's wife squirm under the spotlight which relates to your last point), some of them are simply differences between cultures.

SC

This is a bit OT SC...but NOT defending Victoria Osteen....I have a gut feeling she was set up. Those people saw $$$ signs when they saw her & husband boarding on the plane. Either the accusers are lying and are in cahoots with the witnesses...OR they set her up to SNAP. She & Joel in particular KNOW very, very well they MUST be on their best behavior at ALL times. They are international celebrities..and hopefully true character witnesses of the Lord. Again...I'm not defending them. I'm not a FAN of the Osteens either. I have watched Lakewood from time to time.

I was very, very disappointed with Joel's wimpy interview on Larry King a few years ago. In fact, disappointed is an understatement. I was LIVID!

Nonetheless, I'm too familiar with the tactics of the enemy. He's a thief..out to steal, kill and destroy...and he doesn't care how he does it.

The Chinese culture on the other hand, without dragging Nee/Lee into this, is a very oppressed culture, forced to smile in the public eye..like they are doing at the Olympics right now.

Back in the late 80's, Barbara Bush wrote her biography. I remember her writing about the Chinese children who were forced to sing for her & George Sr...She wrote they had beautiful voices but there was no life in their eyes.

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

This is a bit OT SC...but NOT defending Victoria Osteen....I have a gut feeling she was set up. Those people saw $$$ signs when they saw her & husband boarding on the plane. Either the accusers are lying and are in cahoots with the witnesses...OR they set her up to SNAP. She & Joel in particular KNOW very, very well they MUST be on their best behavior at ALL times. They are international celebrities..and hopefully true character witnesses of the Lord. Again...I'm not defending them. I'm not a FAN of the Osteens either. I have watched Lakewood from time to time.

I was very, very disappointed with Joel's wimpy interview on Larry King a few years ago. In fact, disappointed is an understatement. I was LIVID!

Nonetheless, I'm too familiar with the tactics of the enemy. He's a thief..out to steal, kill and destroy...and he doesn't care how he does it.

The Chinese culture on the other hand, without dragging Nee/Lee into this, is a very oppressed culture, forced to smile in the public eye..like they are doing at the Olympics right now.

Back in the late 80's, Barbara Bush wrote her biography. I remember her writing about the Chinese children who were forced to sing for her & George Sr...She wrote they had beautiful voices but there was no life in their eyes.

CMW,

Well, you may be right about the setup. It's only fair that I allow her to defend herself. It does certainly seem to me the flight attendant here is doing some gold-digging.

But wasn't it a deliciously satirical touch to demand 10% of Victoria's net worth ... in keeping with the 10% the Osteens think Christians should offer?

I'm torn in situations like this. I must tell you, I have a visceral reaction to Joel Osteen and his prosperity gospel. He just rubs me wrong in every way. I didn't see the King interview, but I did see the 60 Minutes interview and he certainly was not impressive in it.

But he is a brother and I shouldn't wish evil upon him. So I repent if that's how I came across. Let the courts decide the veracity of the claim in this situation.


SC

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

CMW,

Well, you may be right about the setup. It's only fair that I allow her to defend herself. It does certainly seem to me the flight attendant here is doing some gold-digging.

But wasn't it a deliciously satirical touch to demand 10% of Victoria's net worth ... in keeping with the 10% the Osteens think Christians should offer?

I'm torn in situations like this. I must tell you, I have a visceral reaction to Joel Osteen and his prosperity gospel. He just rubs me wrong in every way. I didn't see the King interview, but I did see the 60 Minutes interview and he certainly was not impressive in it.

But he is a brother and I shouldn't wish evil upon him. So I repent if that's how I came across. Let the courts decide the veracity of the claim in this situation.

SC

SC, your post/response was most heartfelt.
I do think there is gold digging involved here...and I'm sure many, many people feel the same way. Somehow, I seriously doubt Victoria was going to throw a public temper tantrum..especially on a commercial flight knowing quite well the publicity she/husband would receive from such an outburst. She may have pointed out to the attendant there was a stain on the seat (& I kinda think the stain was purposely placed there to get Victoria's reaction.) Perhaps she brought it up to the attendant's attention and the attendant ignored her. It's possible Victoria raised her voice to get her attention while frustrated.

That's what * I * think. I am not keeping up with the hoopla if there is any. There probably is some hoopla but I don't know how much.

Yeah...asking 10 percent is ironic.

Many people do not like Joel's prosperity/happy gospel. I have heard from people who have visited Lakewood, there is a lot more going on behind the camera that the audience does not see. Supposedly there is 'meat' there. I don't know.

I will say I was helped very, very much in 2003 when I was giving my life back to the LORD. You don't know what I went through emotionally & physically. Even though I knew and experienced the Power of the Blood of Jesus on me, forgiving me and setting me free from the stronghold over me, I cried buckets of tears feeling ashamed, hurt & even lost.

His messages were healing to my broken & contrite heart. He helped me believe God truly loved me and cared for me. It is something I needed to hear at the time.

I will never forget the help I received from his messages and from Joyce Meyer's messages at that time.

I sent their ministries a Thanksgiving offering for the help I received..honoring the LORD with great appreciation.

Today...by the Grace and Mercy and LOVE of God, I'm a healthy, strong believer and follower, steward and ambassador...daughter of the KING.

I occassionally watch Joel and Joyce..mainly when I need a 'picker-upper'.

It is good not to wish evil on our brethren... Our responsibility as instructed by the Word of God is to pray for ther church, our brethren & to love our enemies, to pray for those who have wronged us, have pained us, who have hurt us and to bless them. (It doesn't mean we have to be best friends with them either! )

God is the JUDGE..and Vengeance is His. There is power in praying for our enemies, those who have hurt us, those who do not like us. It doesn't mean we pray for them to apologize to us or for them to like us.

We pray for them because we don't want Satan to sift them. We want God to have Mercy on them as He had/has on us. We want the NAME of JESUS Glorified and the serpent's head crushed once and for all.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

CMW,

But wasn't it a deliciously satirical touch to demand 10% of Victoria's net worth ... in keeping with the 10% the Osteens think Christians should offer?

SC, can you provide a little background info to bring me up to speed about this.

[KSA]

Check this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Faith