Where DO we go from here?

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Hope I'm getting somewhat confused over what your thesis is regarding the Barber family in relation to the LCS. If you compare your family and their experience in Dallas with the Barbers is that entirely objective and fair? While your children may have had a positive experience in the LCS due to your shepherding skill i.e. ability to navigate them around the negative side of things that cannot be said in general terms.

From what I have learned several key leaders we have been discussing had problems with their children. Some quite severe. Many of these now adult children will have nothing to do with the LCS. Did they all have families like the Barbers? I somehow doubt it because such a varied number of personalities and circumstances are involved. The only common denominator I can find is the Lee crazed behavior of their parents and their LCS obsession.

[Hope]

Hello djohnson,

I cannot express how heavy my heart is when I consider many of the families and children who were once in and many who still are in the local churches. I believe strongly that the family is a central critical element of God's Administration. The family is big, big, big in God's plan and heart.

We can certainly declare that the views of WL as well as JB regarding family were so far off. I must remain calm here and take a deep breath.

Regarding some of the sad turn of events for many of the dear saints as well as the leading ones some of the credit must go to the practices in the lc but remember there is an enemy, Satan. Adam and Eve had the direct care and oversight of God Himself and they strayed. Why, due to the serpent. We should not blame the parents, the wrong notions in the lc or the children too much but remember there is an enemy.

But mainly we can know and believe that our wonderful Savior is willing to leave the 99 and search for the lost sheep UNTIL he is found. We can never know how many mountains or rivers or forests the shepherd had to traverse but we can know that the Good Shepherd will go UNTIL he finds the lost one. I pray often for the straying sheep and prodigal sons and daughters. The Lord does not want us to give up. He desires our families all be restored and be a testimony of His marvelous Salvation and Life.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all, and for all wayward children

Hope, Don Rutledge

PS Nell and I have corresponded regarding the baseball player Josh Hamilton. What a testimony of hope he is to all of America!!! Too many have been broken and crushed by drugs and alcohol and have given up all hope. Hamilton is living walking proof of the miraculous saving power of Jesus Christ. I have heard from some of the drugged damaged ones we minister to that the Hamilton story has given them hope and we are seeing marvelous fruits of repentance and new beginnings which are nothing but a glory to God.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by djohnson

Hope

From what I have learned several key leaders we have been discussing had problems with their children. Some quite severe. Many of these now adult children will have nothing to do with the LCS. Did they all have families like the Barbers? I somehow doubt it because such a varied number of personalities and circumstances are involved. The only common denominator I can find is the Lee crazed behavior of their parents and their LCS obsession.

djohnson, at one time I used to consider what happened to ____ I was once with in Anaheim? Over time I realized how shallow this thought was. Really the question should be are these children going on with the Lord after leaving the local churches?
This brother I was once close too I learned in recent years had been a missionary in Fiji when he wasn't serving the young people at his home assembly in Northern California.

Terry

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Terry I agree. I think for children who grew up with parents in the LCS there seems to be several categories:

1. Still in it
2. Left with parents or separately but see no problem with their time there or the LCS in general
3. Left and went head long into the world or even an anti-God stance because they erroneously equate their experience growing up in the LCS with God himself.
4. Left and moved on to a healthy Christian walk while joining other churches in their communities.

The latter 2 typically want nothing to do with the LCS and either consider it a cult or a very extreme narrow group that they regret growing up in. Many may still harbor anger towards their parents for allowing it to happen. They feel that they were left unprotected and that the group was prioritized above them. And further that the group leadership trivialized children and family life.

[Peter Debelak]

dj:

I gotta say, each one of these descriptions have fit me at one point and at present, not a single one does...

But I would say, in general, at least one of these pretty much entails each of my comrades growing up...

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Peter from your posts it seems to me that you are consciously trying to work through your growing-up-in-the-LCS experience. This no doubt puts you in another category. How would you define it?

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by djohnson

Peter from your posts it seems to me that you are consciously trying to work through your growing-up-in-the-LCS experience. This no doubt puts you in another category. How would you define it?

dj:

I gotta say, each one of these descriptions have fit me at one point and at present, not a single one does...

There was a time when I was neck deep in the world, that I attempted to reject God and I told Him so (note the irony). At the time, there was bitterness toward what I viewed as a mere culture which formed my previous beliefs - no different than if I were born into a Buddhist family - and a bitterness that the intensity of that mere culture had stolen my youth from myriad other "fulfilling" and positive pursuits in the world.

When the Lord slowly drew me back to Himself, that included returning - to some extent - to the LC (at least in body, though not really in mindset). There was much I appreciated, much I rejected. But mostly, I did and continue to be endeared by my brothers and sisters there - particularly the ones with whom I have forged relationships. There are still so many from my childhood and even college years whom I consider to be second families - both of the "LSM persuasion" and "non-LSM". I would, despite many strong disagreements with aspects of the LC culture and teaching, still go with any of these ones to a meeting where they meet - be it in Cleveland or Anaheim. Sure, I would prefer just to sit down one-on-one over coffee, but I have no drothers meeting with them whereever it is they worship God.

On the other side, I have tried several different Christian groups, some for semi-extensive period of time. I don't reject other groups as such, but at present, I don't have the grace to meet in any formal way with a particular group.

Ugh. I don't really know how to discuss this topic. I recall fondly my childhood, even as I recognize the deceptions or the skin-deep nature of a lot of my actions and beliefs at the time. I do believe I allowed, to a certain extent, my responsibilities to God to be handed over to others by virtue of certain teachings and practices. But I loved and love the saints who raised me and with whom I was raised - even in my later years of skeptism of the LC. There are some who just could care less about the arguments among the cardinals (rightly or wrongly) and just desire to live in mutual care for one another. And there are some who, though they remain in an "LSM-church," are seeking and challenging rather than being bleating sheep...

I miss the singing. I miss the Sunday dinners after the Lord's table (even when I would roll my eyes at being "sherherded" as if I was a target sheep who needed extra counseling). I miss the joy. Today, I believe my relationship with the Lord is deeper than it ever has been. But it is a somewhat solemn/serious relationship. It is a loving relationship. It is a fruitful relationship. But I lack that joy. Perhaps the expressions of "joy" in the LC are surface and skin-deep. Perhaps I have joy but define it improperly... I don't know. But there is something lacking in my present experience.

This is not nostalgia. It is an attempt to be self-honest before the Lord - about my past and my present experience of Him. It has been easy for me in the past to think that, because I rightlyfully recognized and withdrew from unhealthy practices, my life now was inherently healthy. It is not. I hope He ever-convicts me of that. There is a lot that was good and full of love and life in the LC, if only it wasn't viewed in such an elitist way. I hope, even as I am exposed to and reject the unhealthy teachings I once and do believe, I am also led to an appreciation of what is genuine before the Lord - even when it happens in a "group" with whose teachings/practices the Lord is unhappy.

Sorry for the ramble. I hope it is not too off topic.

In Love,

Peter

[FoundHim]

I must add that there was no 'crazed" behavior on the part of the Barber's mother. She went through tragic suffering as the result of Jame's full committment to Witness Lee. Of course she met with the church, but I happen to know ( from talking to her) that she suffered greatly.

Even in one of the "burnings" she threw in a box of something that was a very personal gift that was given to her from James. I don't feel at liberty to say what it was. She told me with tears. It slowly burned in the ashes, of a marriage that could have been so good, had it not been for the LC, and the allegiance to W. Lee that was Demanded.

[blessD]

Originally Posted by djohnson

Hope I'm getting somewhat confused over what your thesis is regarding the Barber family in relation to the LCS. If you compare your family and their experience in Dallas with the Barbers is that entirely objective and fair? While your children may have had a positive experience in the LCS due to your shepherding skill i.e. ability to navigate them around the negative side of things that cannot be said in general terms.

From what I have learned several key leaders we have been discussing had problems with their children. Some quite severe. Many of these now adult children will have nothing to do with the LCS. Did they all have families like the Barbers? I somehow doubt it because such a varied number of personalities and circumstances are involved. The only common denominator I can find is the Lee crazed behavior of their parents and their LCS obsession.

I was extremely close to the Barber family and consider them extended family. They are one of the main reasons I married who I married (though it ended in divorce). I count the LC directly responsible for the problems discussed regarding them. In one of the very last meetings James spoke to us over the phone from his bed. He was very clear that he could see everything more objectively after listening to the meetings from lying in bed with a possible fatal illness. Perhaps, some on this forum remember his admonishing in that meeting. He said something along the line that it is only Christ, nothing else. Later, I understood what he was trying to say.

Of the group of elders during this time: one had a son who dealt with serious alcoholism and another had a daughter who dealt with bisexuality issues. I attribute the LC to these problems, too. The Barbers weren't an isolated incident.

[juliep]

I grew up with the Barber boys, and knew them well. Seems unfair to be speaking for them and about them without them being present! Hope they are both doing well. Get in touch if either of you read this. Send me an email! You'll know who I am by my user name.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by juliep

I grew up with the Barber boys, and knew them well. Seems unfair to be speaking for them and about them without them being present! Hope they are both doing well. Get in touch if either of you read this. Send me an email! You'll know who I am by my user name.

Hey Julie, good to see you!

Actually to put things in perspective for you, Brent used to post a lot on "the other" forum. So some of us have a lot of insight into his experiences and thoughts, he made his story public. I miss him. He was exceptionally intelligent and a great writer. Sadly, he was also deeply, deeply affected in a negative way by his LC experience. There were also a few posts there by his brother, whose name escapes me (Brad?).

I knew Brent from Austin. He was an LC kid, a bit shy and good-looking. I remember he started lifting weights one year and really bulked up. But I never knew how bright he was back then. I hope he is doing well. Brent, if you are watching, God bless you.

[blessD]

Originally Posted by juliep

I grew up with the Barber boys, and knew them well. Seems unfair to be speaking for them and about them without them being present! Hope they are both doing well. Get in touch if either of you read this. Send me an email! You'll know who I am by my user name.

Just wanted to say I surely did not intend on speaking of anyone without them being present. I was speaking more about what James had to say in his last days. They are my friends and I have very fond feelings towards them - as I said, I consider them family (the mama is like my own :-)). Maybe the true meaning of what I was trying to say got lost in my words.

[juliep]

Understand where you're coming from. I won't even start on my personal opinion of James and what he put everyone through! I'm thankfull that part of my life is over, and I am trying to deal with it and forget it as best I can. I know I'm definantely not the only one out there!

[TLFisher]

Where do we go from here?

Don't just meet with an assembly, become part of fellowship at that assembly for the building up.
Whatever your concepts become from meeting in the local churches, drop your concepts. Until a brother or sister is able to drop their concepts by comparing what this assembly is compared to a locality, you won't be happy.
Read the Bible daily!

Terry