What Now?

PeterG · 09-17-2024, 05:41 AM

Hello everyone,
nice to be here.

I can only talk for Germany, where I come from. Please excuse my translator-English. I certainly don't want to deny individual good fruits, but on the whole the way of the Local Churches has been a disaster. The once so many small hopeful groups have disappeared or their original focus has now been swept under the carpet. Or in some places, several “local churches” have competed with each other. And I also believe those who say that Witness Lee's last message was imbued with a deep sense of remorse that he had seen the great mistakes that had been made.

The right starting point
Hardly any thinking Christian would deny that the young Watchman Nee was given a particularly profound insight by God. A realization that Christians at the time of the Bible still took for granted: that God's church simply encompasses all believers in a particular place.

The glorious goal
And it’s also hard to deny that after the many good achievements in the wake of the Reformation, if what Watchman Nee was given were also practiced now, we could actually rejoice in something like the recovery of the biblical ecclesia.

The fundamental error
There is probably this simple, very logical reason why things turned out differently: When believers receive local knowledge and realize that denominations are wrong, they must not become a denomination themselves. They must not become a “church” either.

The narrower path
They must be proclaimers of a prophetic word to the denominations. Their task is to explain in love, clarity and patience how God envisions his church. They must open people’s eyes and guide the sheep correctly, because 99% think that denominations are completely normal and okay.

And most importantly, the proclaimers must not anticipate the thing that is being proclaimed. Instead, they must stand in the gap - just like the prophets of the Old Testament once did. Their task is to re-explain the will of God by calling the church to repentance and conversion.

Two questions may arise
1. Isn't a group of such automatically a denomination? Or at least must be perceived as such? No, this does not necessarily have to happen if the identity as a group serving the church is unmistakably emphasized.

2. Doesn’t such a group again create the appearance of exclusivity? In part. Because it bears the dignity of those who deliver God's Word to the people of God. But that is their only “exclusivity”. It will be hard for her, she will face resistance. And because it is not a church, it does not possess the inner riches that God has reserved for his ekklesia. She is just a little, serving flock. A necessary one.

Grace and blessings
Peter G

JorgeP · 09-21-2024, 09:47 AM

Greetings Brother Peter. Do you know Brother Daniel Ofoma from Berlin? I spent a year in Berlin during the lockdown from 2019 to 2020 and I spent a year congregating with the recovery ministry in Berlin. I can give you testimony of my experience there. Basically it was an immigrant group of Asian and American brothers, there were practically no native German brothers. So you can understand the failure of the group regarding the inclusiveness of the native German brothers. In fact, the German brothers do not like to meet in an Asian or American atmosphere, because they are simply German and are in Germany and that is common sense. I think that the brothers who came to Europe, in this case to Germany, did not take seriously the issue of the national culture and lifestyle that Christians have in their countries.

I was able to witness the tremendous Asian and American cultural influence on the church life in Berlin, and really the brothers were committed to the recovery ministry and not to the Body of Christ in the city. As it usually happens, they look for Christians from other congregations to leave the ministries in which they are and they enter the recovery ministry. At no time did I have the experience of having communion with brothers outside the recovery ministry because there was no opportunity for multi-ministerial fraternal communion. Another thing that I was able to witness is the phenomenon that was occurring with the supposed conversions of the Arabs who were entering Germany and who were being baptized. It was simply a fraud. Many false converts were baptized to have access to social assistance, remembering that Germany is a culturally Christian country, and they said that they were present at the conversion of many Arabs to the Christian faith, but in practice in the meetings I only saw 1 or 2 at most.

In fact, I shared an apartment with one of the native German brothers and when I was leaving there, the opportunity to share an apartment with a brother of Arab background. I was also there at the time when a million tracts were printed and sent to every home in Berlin, and there was almost no fruit from it. If the brothers in the recovery ministry would abandon this divisive attitude and team up with the brothers in other ministries in Berlin, the city would be impacted by the gospel. Berlin is the darkest spiritual city I have ever visited, the spiritual tension on the street is really uncomfortable. The spiritual situation in Berlin is quite dark, it is really a shame that almost no one even preaches the gospel on the street anymore and that shows the condition of the churches there.

PeterG · 09-21-2024, 10:49 AM

Hello JorgeP,
I come from southern Germany. And what you describe is in line with my experiences in Munich. A small, isolated Asian group that didn't really know what tradition they were in, what they wanted to believe and how or if to interact with natives. There was a much larger proportion of Germans in Stuttgart, but it seemed to me that they had become embarrassed by the original tradition. They had grown tired of the conflicts. I also note this on the LC websites in America. They are assimilating more and more into the evangelical mainstream. And as I wrote above: They simply miss an alternative and promising spiritual strategy.

ThankfulForever777 · 09-23-2024, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JorgeP

If the brothers in the recovery ministry would abandon this divisive attitude and team up with the brothers in other ministries in Berlin, the city would be impacted by the gospel.

In the Lord’s Recovery, there is a belief that Christians and ministries outside their circle are considered unclean. I once asked a brother from the Local Church about the response to a natural disaster in my city, where various churches and denominations came together for relief efforts, but the Local Church did not participate. I questioned why the saints in the Recovery couldn't unite with outside Christians for such a practical cause that doesn’t even involve spiritual or doctrinal matters.

He responded with an elitist attitude, suggesting that when denominations occasionally come together to help others, it is merely a reflection of their moral and natural acts, unrelated to the true oneness of the Body of Christ. He went on to explain that the Lord’s Recovery practices oneness in the divine life and nature, and not in human moral standards.

This exchange showed me how disillusioned and narrow-minded their views can be. They seem only willing to be one with other Christians who fully accept the teachings of Witness Lee and their specific practices. This attitude is contrary to the inclusivity and openness that they claim to represent.

PeterG · 09-23-2024, 04:28 PM

Meanwhile I have read a lot here and was often shocked. But I would like to encourage everyone who has had a bad experience with the idea of "Lord's Recovery" to rethink about what it was actually about in the beginning and would ask if you really want to give it up.

If, in a Location full of unsaved people, some come to faith through the gospel: Then God does not want them to split into individual denominations, but that a visible multitude is living for his glory. He is looking for them to testify to their faith by their unity and thus also become light and salt for the world.

Was there ever anything wrong with this? It is what Christians have always known and what was WN's mission. Because of his spiritual clarity and his background he was predestined not to shy away from the practical consequences. This way he inspired generations of believers. And he was also wise and far-sighted. That is why he always emphasized how careful we have to be in founding a new “church”. That we must not add to the confusion.

I'm not nearly as familiar with WL as I am with WN. But apparently Lee acted far more carelessly, which led exactly to what his teacher wanted to prevent. But what is the consequence for us today?? To give up the good goal and finally accept church confusion? Or do we still have the responsibility to do the right thing?

Nell · 09-24-2024, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterG

Meanwhile I have read a lot here and was often shocked. But I would like to encourage everyone who has had a bad experience with the idea of "Lord's Recovery" to rethink about what it was actually about in the beginning and would ask if you really want to give it up.

If, in a Location full of unsaved people, some come to faith through the gospel: Then God does not want them to split into individual denominations, but that a visible multitude is living for his glory. He is looking for them to testify to their faith by their unity and thus also become light and salt for the world.

Was there ever anything wrong with this? It is what Christians have always known and what was WN's mission. Because of his spiritual clarity and his background he was predestined not to shy away from the practical consequences. This way he inspired generations of believers. And he was also wise and far-sighted. That is why he always emphasized how careful we have to be in founding a new “church”. That we must not add to the confusion.

I'm not nearly as familiar with WL as I am with WN. But apparently Lee acted far more carelessly, which led exactly to what his teacher wanted to prevent. But what is the consequence for us today?? To give up the good goal and finally accept church confusion? Or do we still have the responsibility to do the right thing?

From The Normal Christian Worker, Watchman Nee Emphasis added.

Absolute loyalty to the Truth is a matter that must have priority in the life of every Christian worker. It is possible, and indeed it not infrequently happens, that a worker modifies the Truth because he is influenced by men, or by circumstances, or by his own desires. The truth is absolute, and it demands undeviating loyalty of all men under all circumstances. All we possess we can sacrifice if need be, but the Truth we dare not sacrifice. We must never seek to bend it to our purpose, but must always bow to it.

PeterG,
The Lord Himself has led many of us out of the Local Church of Witness Lee. Why? Maybe these words from Watchman Nee should be considered before "rethinking" what God has called us to do. You're asking us to compromise our loyalty to the Truth we've seen from the Holy Spirit.

Nell

PeterG · 09-24-2024, 12:52 PM

Hi Nell,
I agree to that quote 100 percent. Because I am talking about Watchman Nee, not the work of Wtness Lee! I am talking about the truth that I have tried to express above. And to which I want to remain loyal. Has the spirit shown you a better one?

ThankfulForever777 · 09-24-2024, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterG

Meanwhile I have read a lot here and was often shocked. But I would like to encourage everyone who has had a bad experience with the idea of "Lord's Recovery" to rethink about what it was actually about in the beginning and would ask if you really want to give it up.

If, in a Location full of unsaved people, some come to faith through the gospel: Then God does not want them to split into individual denominations, but that a visible multitude is living for his glory. He is looking for them to testify to their faith by their unity and thus also become light and salt for the world.

Was there ever anything wrong with this? It is what Christians have always known and what was WN's mission. Because of his spiritual clarity and his background he was predestined not to shy away from the practical consequences. This way he inspired generations of believers. And he was also wise and far-sighted. That is why he always emphasized how careful we have to be in founding a new “church”. That we must not add to the confusion.

I'm not nearly as familiar with WL as I am with WN. But apparently Lee acted far more carelessly, which led exactly to what his teacher wanted to prevent. But what is the consequence for us today?? To give up the good goal and finally accept church confusion? Or do we still have the responsibility to do the right thing?

Hi PeterG,

Personally, I have come to see denominations not just in a negative light, but also in a positive way. The truth is, all churches—whether they call themselves "non-denominational," independent, house churches, or even groups like the Lord's Recovery "local churches"—are inevitably denominations.

According to the dictionary, a "Christian denomination" is defined as: "A distinct group within Christianity that shares common beliefs, practices, and organizational structures, but differs from other groups in theological interpretations or worship styles."
By this definition, any Christian group, whether large or small, old or new, fits the bill.

What is positive about denominations? For example, they serve an important role in the Body of Christ by reflecting the diversity within God's people—whether in worship style, emphasis, or reach. They allow the gospel to reach a wider range of individuals across different communities, social backgrounds, age groups, and cultures. Through this diversity, we can grow in love and service toward one another, learning to embrace unity despite our differences. They also help believers to distinguish true churches and Scriptural teachings from false churches and heretical teachings.

Since leaving the Lord's Recovery, I’ve shifted my focus from dogma and outward practices, like the "local ground of the church," to God’s love, good fruit, and humility.

In my research on Christian cults, I have noticed a common thread: they all claim to be the only true church. While they reach this conclusion through different doctrines or logic, the result is the same—an attitude of pride, elitism, and judgment toward other Christian groups, while fostering fear, shame, and inadequacy in their own members.

Consider groups like the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Exclusive Brethren, William Branham’s followers, the Moonies, and the Local Church of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee and alike. They all express anti-denominational stance and claim to represent the true unity of the church. In fact, their behaviour demonstrates that they are a cultish denomination and a false church that does not follow the teachings of Christ.

I believe God is less concerned with outward labels and practices and more focused on what’s happening inside of our hearts. When it comes to meeting together, I don’t think God cares whether we identify as Baptist, Pentecostal, Non-denominational, or meet in a home. What matters to Him most is whether we love and respect all children of God and considering others better than ourselves, or if we are caught up in pride and strife.

PeterG · 09-24-2024, 04:52 PM

Hi ThankfulForever777

I agree. Denminations are a wonderful thing. They can do so many different, interesting things. But why do they have to consider themselves a church? The church is supposed to be characterized by “God's love, good fruits and humility”. Just like you said.

But if that is so - how can there be divisions? Or how can we ignore them? Diversity is completely normal on this planet, except in a totalitarian system. And diversity should also prevail in the church. “IN” the church! Diversity ends where we have division.

Isn’t the special Christian thing that Christians do not separate over differences of opinion – because they remain humble and look to the cross? And isn’t that the testimony the planet is looking for?

InconvenientRuth · 10-01-2024, 10:33 PM

It is refreshing to read your posts, @PeterG. You are with fellow seeking ones in this forum. Were it not for an abusive marriage to a leading one in the LC, I'd still likely be very devoutly following, because I love God's Word, and don't want any divisions, etc. But the abuse started to make further abuses, of myself and of others, more and more clear to me, which eventually forced me to find fellowship with "other" believers. I like to see all of us as ONE, and sin and Satan and other issues as the divisive factors - that were destroyed on the cross. But living in oneness requires we all stay in the light, confessing our sins, forgiving, and enjoying all of the riches of Christ in ALL the believers.
Wilkommen! Meine Mutter ist eine Deutcherin (adopted to the U.S. after WWII).

PeterG · 10-02-2024, 06:55 AM

Hi Ruth,

so nice to hear you sound so positive. Your mother is German, cool!

I think it's as you say: abuse and all other sins can creep into ANY group of people, including any Christian group. And it happens wherever we look... I used to enjoy visiting a Catholic community from time to time. They also had a “guru,” a very charismatic guy, people adored and to whom they made pilgrimages from all over the country. A few years ago it came out that he regularly sexually abused his young deciples. I was NOT surprised.

But that's why I want to separate what God showed the young Watchman Nee and which I believe should be so important to christianity – on the one hand. And on the other, how the “local churches” worked out the message, which is a shame and tragedy. But God has “long breath,” as we Germans say. He finds and goes new ways.

“The riches of Christ in ALL the believers”. Amen! - please in a very concrete way in the place/location, where we live, impressing Non-believers. No division and no "mishmash" (is that english?) of world and church. I’m a dreamer...

09-17-2024, 05:41 AM	#1
PeterG MEMBER Join Date: Sep 2024 Posts: 41	What Now? Hello everyone, nice to be here. I can only talk for Germany, where I come from. Please excuse my translator-English. I certainly don't want to deny individual good fruits, but on the whole the way of the Local Churches has been a disaster. The once so many small hopeful groups have disappeared or their original focus has now been swept under the carpet. Or in some places, several “local churches” have competed with each other. And I also believe those who say that Witness Lee's last message was imbued with a deep sense of remorse that he had seen the great mistakes that had been made. The right starting point Hardly any thinking Christian would deny that the young Watchman Nee was given a particularly profound insight by God. A realization that Christians at the time of the Bible still took for granted: that God's church simply encompasses all believers in a particular place. The glorious goal And it’s also hard to deny that after the many good achievements in the wake of the Reformation, if what Watchman Nee was given were also practiced now, we could actually rejoice in something like the recovery of the biblical ecclesia. The fundamental error There is probably this simple, very logical reason why things turned out differently: When believers receive local knowledge and realize that denominations are wrong, they must not become a denomination themselves. They must not become a “church” either. The narrower path They must be proclaimers of a prophetic word to the denominations. Their task is to explain in love, clarity and patience how God envisions his church. They must open people’s eyes and guide the sheep correctly, because 99% think that denominations are completely normal and okay. And most importantly, the proclaimers must not anticipate the thing that is being proclaimed. Instead, they must stand in the gap - just like the prophets of the Old Testament once did. Their task is to re-explain the will of God by calling the church to repentance and conversion. Two questions may arise 1. Isn't a group of such automatically a denomination? Or at least must be perceived as such? No, this does not necessarily have to happen if the identity as a group serving the church is unmistakably emphasized. 2. Doesn’t such a group again create the appearance of exclusivity? In part. Because it bears the dignity of those who deliver God's Word to the people of God. But that is their only “exclusivity”. It will be hard for her, she will face resistance. And because it is not a church, it does not possess the inner riches that God has reserved for his ekklesia. She is just a little, serving flock. A necessary one. Grace and blessings Peter G

09-21-2024, 09:47 AM	#2
JorgeP Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Posts: 21	Re: What now? Greetings Brother Peter. Do you know Brother Daniel Ofoma from Berlin? I spent a year in Berlin during the lockdown from 2019 to 2020 and I spent a year congregating with the recovery ministry in Berlin. I can give you testimony of my experience there. Basically it was an immigrant group of Asian and American brothers, there were practically no native German brothers. So you can understand the failure of the group regarding the inclusiveness of the native German brothers. In fact, the German brothers do not like to meet in an Asian or American atmosphere, because they are simply German and are in Germany and that is common sense. I think that the brothers who came to Europe, in this case to Germany, did not take seriously the issue of the national culture and lifestyle that Christians have in their countries. I was able to witness the tremendous Asian and American cultural influence on the church life in Berlin, and really the brothers were committed to the recovery ministry and not to the Body of Christ in the city. As it usually happens, they look for Christians from other congregations to leave the ministries in which they are and they enter the recovery ministry. At no time did I have the experience of having communion with brothers outside the recovery ministry because there was no opportunity for multi-ministerial fraternal communion. Another thing that I was able to witness is the phenomenon that was occurring with the supposed conversions of the Arabs who were entering Germany and who were being baptized. It was simply a fraud. Many false converts were baptized to have access to social assistance, remembering that Germany is a culturally Christian country, and they said that they were present at the conversion of many Arabs to the Christian faith, but in practice in the meetings I only saw 1 or 2 at most. In fact, I shared an apartment with one of the native German brothers and when I was leaving there, the opportunity to share an apartment with a brother of Arab background. I was also there at the time when a million tracts were printed and sent to every home in Berlin, and there was almost no fruit from it. If the brothers in the recovery ministry would abandon this divisive attitude and team up with the brothers in other ministries in Berlin, the city would be impacted by the gospel. Berlin is the darkest spiritual city I have ever visited, the spiritual tension on the street is really uncomfortable. The spiritual situation in Berlin is quite dark, it is really a shame that almost no one even preaches the gospel on the street anymore and that shows the condition of the churches there.

09-21-2024, 10:49 AM	#3
PeterG MEMBER Join Date: Sep 2024 Posts: 41	Re: What now? Hello JorgeP, I come from southern Germany. And what you describe is in line with my experiences in Munich. A small, isolated Asian group that didn't really know what tradition they were in, what they wanted to believe and how or if to interact with natives. There was a much larger proportion of Germans in Stuttgart, but it seemed to me that they had become embarrassed by the original tradition. They had grown tired of the conflicts. I also note this on the LC websites in America. They are assimilating more and more into the evangelical mainstream. And as I wrote above: They simply miss an alternative and promising spiritual strategy.

09-23-2024, 04:28 PM	#5
PeterG MEMBER Join Date: Sep 2024 Posts: 41	Re: What now? Meanwhile I have read a lot here and was often shocked. But I would like to encourage everyone who has had a bad experience with the idea of "Lord's Recovery" to rethink about what it was actually about in the beginning and would ask if you really want to give it up. If, in a Location full of unsaved people, some come to faith through the gospel: Then God does not want them to split into individual denominations, but that a visible multitude is living for his glory. He is looking for them to testify to their faith by their unity and thus also become light and salt for the world. Was there ever anything wrong with this? It is what Christians have always known and what was WN's mission. Because of his spiritual clarity and his background he was predestined not to shy away from the practical consequences. This way he inspired generations of believers. And he was also wise and far-sighted. That is why he always emphasized how careful we have to be in founding a new “church”. That we must not add to the confusion. I'm not nearly as familiar with WL as I am with WN. But apparently Lee acted far more carelessly, which led exactly to what his teacher wanted to prevent. But what is the consequence for us today?? To give up the good goal and finally accept church confusion? Or do we still have the responsibility to do the right thing?

09-24-2024, 12:52 PM	#7
PeterG MEMBER Join Date: Sep 2024 Posts: 41	Re: What now? Hi Nell, I agree to that quote 100 percent. Because I am talking about Watchman Nee, not the work of Wtness Lee! I am talking about the truth that I have tried to express above. And to which I want to remain loyal. Has the spirit shown you a better one?

09-24-2024, 04:52 PM	#9
PeterG MEMBER Join Date: Sep 2024 Posts: 41	Re: What now? Hi ThankfulForever777 I agree. Denminations are a wonderful thing. They can do so many different, interesting things. But why do they have to consider themselves a church? The church is supposed to be characterized by “God's love, good fruits and humility”. Just like you said. But if that is so - how can there be divisions? Or how can we ignore them? Diversity is completely normal on this planet, except in a totalitarian system. And diversity should also prevail in the church. “IN” the church! Diversity ends where we have division. Isn’t the special Christian thing that Christians do not separate over differences of opinion – because they remain humble and look to the cross? And isn’t that the testimony the planet is looking for?

10-01-2024, 10:33 PM	#10
InconvenientRuth Member Join Date: Sep 2024 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 15	Re: What Now? It is refreshing to read your posts, @PeterG. You are with fellow seeking ones in this forum. Were it not for an abusive marriage to a leading one in the LC, I'd still likely be very devoutly following, because I love God's Word, and don't want any divisions, etc. But the abuse started to make further abuses, of myself and of others, more and more clear to me, which eventually forced me to find fellowship with "other" believers. I like to see all of us as ONE, and sin and Satan and other issues as the divisive factors - that were destroyed on the cross. But living in oneness requires we all stay in the light, confessing our sins, forgiving, and enjoying all of the riches of Christ in ALL the believers. Wilkommen! Meine Mutter ist eine Deutcherin (adopted to the U.S. after WWII).

10-02-2024, 06:55 AM	#11
PeterG MEMBER Join Date: Sep 2024 Posts: 41	Re: What Now? Hi Ruth, so nice to hear you sound so positive. Your mother is German, cool! I think it's as you say: abuse and all other sins can creep into ANY group of people, including any Christian group. And it happens wherever we look... I used to enjoy visiting a Catholic community from time to time. They also had a “guru,” a very charismatic guy, people adored and to whom they made pilgrimages from all over the country. A few years ago it came out that he regularly sexually abused his young deciples. I was NOT surprised. But that's why I want to separate what God showed the young Watchman Nee and which I believe should be so important to christianity – on the one hand. And on the other, how the “local churches” worked out the message, which is a shame and tragedy. But God has “long breath,” as we Germans say. He finds and goes new ways. “The riches of Christ in ALL the believers”. Amen! - please in a very concrete way in the place/location, where we live, impressing Non-believers. No division and no "mishmash" (is that english?) of world and church. I’m a dreamer...