Church in Toronto's Salvation Theology

[bearbear]

I came across this sermon from the Church In Toronto given by Del Martin starting at the 21 minute mark:
https://www.youtube.com/live/FsM7s0w7J6o?t=1250s

The sermon begins by quoting 1 John 3:3-10

And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

It appears that Church in Toronto, led by Nigel Tomes and Del Martin have come to reject the thousand year outer darkness / purgatory doctrine that was taught by Witness Lee and Watchman Nee and have come to adhere to a soteriology similar to Provisionism which dichotomizes true and false Christians https://soteriology101.com/about-2/statement-of-faith/

This is of great encouragement to me as I've felt alone in taking this journey of rejecting the 1000 year outer darkness doctrine among my family members and friends who have left the LC. I'm curious if others have come to the same conclusion after reading the bible for themselves and studying other soteriologies.

[Ohio]

bearbear, IIRC you believe that those born of God cannot sin, and those who sin cannot be real children of God. I thus concluded that only those who pretend to be without sin can be saved, and the rest of us will perish. Similar teachings infected the Pharisees, who successfully fooled others into believing they alone would be saved.

Yet God sees past pretentious behavior and knows our heart. Luke 18.9-14

[bearbear]

In the sermon by Del Martin on 1 John 3 he addresses the sinless perfection heresy which I also reject per 1 John 1:8 "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

But I'd like to first bring the focus of this discussion back to the Church in Toronto's view on salvation and not my own. Does anyone know if Nigel Tomes and Del Martin's soteriology has changed in recent years? Do they officially believe that the 1000 year outer darkness concept for unfaithful Christians espoused by Lee, Nee and Govett as unbiblical and lean towards a view separating true and false Christians?

More specifically would they affirm that Jesus was talking to unsaved false Christians in passages like Matthew 7:21-23 and that the "kingdom of heaven" referenced refers to the eternal kingdom and is not limited to the millennial reign?

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

[Ohio]

John 3.16 is a witness concerning judgments at the great white throne.

Matthew 7:21-23 is a witness at the judgment seat of Christ.

Different verses apply to believers/unbelievers at different judgments.

[bearbear]

I am browsing through the Church in Toronto's sermons and found more evidence for their emphasis on true and false belief.

1. "Remaining & Fruiting | Ian Brinksman | Dec 17th, 2023"
https://www.youtube.com/live/5DJ1Zuj...A5CiceG&t=2040
Around 34 minutes Ian Brinksman gives an interpretation of John 15:6

"If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned."

he addresses concerns about being "removed" or "cut off" from the vine and explains that this applies to those who have not genuinely accepted Jesus by using Judas as an example of someone who walked away from Jesus and thus was not a genuine branch.

2. "Was Nicodemus Ever Born Again? | Del Martin | Mar 12th, 2023"
This is an interesting sermon that discusses whether Nicodemus was saved. Del warns the audience not to be a fence sitter but to make full commitment to Jesus. Here's a quote from the conclusion of the sermon:

Romans 10:9 says this "if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved" salvation is the new birth and how are we saved? How are we born from above? We confess that Jesus is Lord and we believe in our heart that God raised him from the dead. This is the way so what's my final word to you this morning number one don't be a fence sitter, don't be a fence sitter don't be ambiguous be not just be in the place of No Man's Land. I think we got a picture right, let's have that picture don't be there sitting on the fence, make the choice don't be a Nicodemus, don't be ambiguous, don't be a person who we don't know if they believe or not. Don't sit in the fence you need to believe to receive this new birth from above which is the eternal life that will be your entrance into the kingdom of God

Notice at the end Del Martin equates eternal life with "entrance into the kingdom of God" perhaps in reference to 2 Peter 1:10-11
"Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

This verse is a nightmare for the millenial exclusion viewpoint because it confirms that the early church and Jesus' audience understood warnings about not inheriting the kingdom of God as being eternal in nature and not just limited to a 1000 year reign. This is consistent with Christ's millennial reign not being revealed until the book of Revelation which is dated to around 90AD by which time all the apostles outside of John were martyred.

I think the three sermons referenced here clearly show that the Church in Toronto rejects the millennial exclusion doctrine. However, it would be interesting to hear from members meeting with the Church in Toronto on how their theology has changed over the years.

[UntoHim]

bearbear and others,
I've been listening and reading the messages and ministry of the three "Teaching Pastors" (Nigel Tomes, Del Martin and Ian Brinksman) of Church In Toronto for many years now, and I don't believe there are any official theological positions taken, other than what is stated on their C.I.T. WEBSITE - - Of course I'm sure any of these brothers would be more than happy to clarify this for you - they have "questions" section within the website: https://churchintoronto.com/contact-us/

For starters, I would point you to this portion of their Statement of Beliefs:

Salvation
We believe that salvation depends solely on the finished work of Jesus Christ, who accomplished redemption once and for all on the cross at Calvary as the vicarious sacrifice for the sins of all mankind. All those who put their faith in Jesus Christ and His work, believing that God has raised Him from the dead, and confess Him as their Lord, shall be saved forever and have eternal life. This salvation is the gift of God’s grace and is not gained by human works.
-

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

bearbear and others,
I've been listening and reading the messages and ministry of the three "Teaching Pastors" (Nigel Tomes, Del Martin and Ian Brinksman) of Church In Toronto for many years now, and I don't believe there are any official theological positions taken, other than what is stated on their C.I.T. WEBSITE - - Of course I'm sure any of these brothers would be more than happy to clarify this for you - they have "questions" section within the website: https://churchintoronto.com/contact-us/

Thanks for the suggestion. I just used that page to ask for their official position on millennial exclusion

For starters, I would point you to this portion of their Statement of Beliefs:
Salvation
We believe that salvation depends solely on the finished work of Jesus Christ, who accomplished redemption once and for all on the cross at Calvary as the vicarious sacrifice for the sins of all mankind. All those who put their faith in Jesus Christ and His work, believing that God has raised Him from the dead, and confess Him as their Lord, shall be saved forever and have eternal life. This salvation is the gift of God’s grace and is not gained by human works.

I found it interesting that they also state that mankind needs to "repent of their sins". This does not seem to be your typical "Local Church" at all.

Mankind
We believe that mankind was created in the image and likeness of God, but due to Adam’s sin, all mankind inherited a sinful nature. All mankind has sinned and come short of the glory of God, becoming spiritually dead and alienated from Him. Therefore each human being needs to repent of their sins and believe in Jesus Christ.

Mark 1:15
and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Luke 13:3
No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

In the sermon by Del Martin on 1 John 3 he addresses the sinless perfection heresy which I also reject per 1 John 1:8 "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

But I'd like to first bring the focus of this discussion back to the Church in Toronto's view on salvation and not my own. Does anyone know if Nigel Tomes and Del Martin's soteriology has changed in recent years? Do they officially believe that the 1000 year outer darkness concept for unfaithful Christians espoused by Lee, Nee and Govett as unbiblical and lean towards a view separating true and false Christians?

More specifically would they affirm that Jesus was talking to unsaved false Christians in passages like Matthew 7:21-23 and that the "kingdom of heaven" referenced refers to the eternal kingdom and is not limited to the millennial reign?

We are here in a "prison of two extremes."

Prison #1: We are saved by faith in Jesus. All our sins are forgiven. All the rewards and blessings in the NT are ours regardless of our living. All the NT judgments (eg Mt 7.21-23) are on the unsaved, not the saved.

bearbear has rejected this as "easy believism."

Prison #2: Most of the Christians are not faithful, not obedient, etc. and will be judged at the Bema seat and sent to "1000 year outer darkness" as promoted by LSM.


I believe both of these "extremes" have some valid basis in scripture, and one key in understanding the truth is to know which judgment a verse applies to. For example, Eph 2.8 witnesses to the resurrection of the dead in Hebrews 9.27 and I Thess 4.16. But, on the other hand, Matt 7.21-23 witnesses at the judgment seat of Christ.

In like manner, solving the Calvinism-Armenianism debate, verses like Romans 4.2 and John 3.16 witness to our salvation from perishing by simply believing God, and subsequently entering Paradise (Luke 23.43), whereas verses like James 2.14-17 witnesses later on at the judgment seat of Christ.

[bearbear]

For additional context concerning the sermon at the top of the thread, here's a quote from Del Martin's sermon "Can Christians Keep on Sinning?" on August 11th, 2024 around the 38 minute mark
https://www.youtube.com/live/FsM7s0w7J6o?t=2200s

Originally Posted by Del Martin

To depict the spirit's work in Believers unlike the children of the devil the children of God do not go on sinning because the spirit dwells within them. What is this saying, this is saying the spirit of God that dwells in us does not tolerate sin and that's why when we do sin we feel the way we do. And again I say that is a blessing that is a gift God's nature the god-born nature in us the God born nature in the Believers does not practice sin does not make a practice of sinning. So when you feel bad about what you've done that's a good sign that's actually a sign you're child of God how about that you say you sin I'm no longer a child of God no the reason you feel bad about the sin that proves you're a child of God if you had no feeling about it then you'd have to question so the children of God do not make a practice of sinning so in a sense the Greek tense has this present intense thing concerning sinning which is an ongoing action which makes it impossible.

So here's the struggle that often Believers especially new Believers have and that is we have the desire and we may even make the statement from now on I'm not going to sin and we something happens and we feel discouraged or we may you know this morning we have a number people getting baptized at the end of the meeting and you say well after my baptism I will sin no more I don't need to say anything more right we know that we do sin what do we do about it well this is what makes the difference and that is what when we have the conviction concerning sin what do we do we confess we confess that sin we confess the sin we desire to live a life of righteousness.

Andreas Kostenberger says regeneration will inexorably produce a heart that confesses sin and continues in righteousness continuing in sin is an impossibility for those who truly are God's children.

Another quote from Karen Jobes: John also acknowledges that even though those who have been born of God do sin he calls his readers to acknowledge and confess their sin because God is faithful and just and will forgive confess sin based on the cleansing power of Jesus blood.

This view is a popular evangelical interpretation of 1 John 3 and is inconsistent with millennial exclusion. For example the "workers of lawlessness" who called Jesus "Lord, Lord" in Matthew 7:21-23 would be easily categorized as "children of the devil" in Del Martin's exposition per 1 John 3 since they practiced sinning. Millennial exclusionists however would categorize these as saved unfaithful Christians who can enter the eternal kingdom after 1000 years of discipline.