Is The Local Church Movement Dying?

[Nell]

A friend asked me the question today: “So. Now is the Local Church just dying off? I didn’t know what to say. What to say other than “that’s a good question”. What do you think?

How many "localities", national and international? Is the number of Local Church localities increasing? Is the membership increasing?
What is the head count?
Are "meeting halls" being built and financed by the Living Stream Ministry, or financed locally by the local membership.

I haven’t been to many “meetings” in the last what…20 years. We don’t get many posts on the forum that might answer that question.

Historically when a minister dies, his ministry has died with him. When Billy Graham died, his ministry had long since ceased. That is, Graham retired, there were no more Billy Graham Crusades put on, not even by his children. Then he passed away. He left behind books and Crusades videos, but his ministry ended. His son Franklin started his own ministry which looks nothing like his father’s, but the message of the gospel is the same.

What happened when Witness Lee died? A group of men banded together and took over, calling themselves “blended” and took on the mission of carrying on the “ministry” of Witness Lee.

Is the Local Church dying, or thriving, or somewhere in between? Did these blended men accomplish the goal? Lee was supposed to have the up-to-date speaking of God. The “up-to-date” speaking that ended 25 or so years ago.

There are a number of men no longer living, who joined the LC Movement when Lee began in the US years ago. Are they being replaced with men of the same "vision" Lee possessed?

Has the Lord not spoken anything “new” in the last 25 years?

What is the status of the Local Church today…June, 2024? What’s going on? Is the Local Church thriving or is it dying under the weight of its own rhetoric?

Nell

I haven’t been there for a while, but if anything history taught me, is that most of the movements such as this one will eventually ether crash and cease to exist or just become very exclusive to almost only growing from intermarriage and starting to promote bigger families to keep up the head count.

Also, once the “direct disciples” of the founders are no longer active and pulling this thing forward, it usually splits and breaks into many groups and ways. If you considered what they are pushing unto their members now, you will clearly see that it’s their biggest worry and fear. Not many of the “men that walked with Lee” remain around. It’s really fascinating to watch how man’s built things come crashing down within itself, because there was never a good foundation to begin with, just a smoking mirrors and rhetoric that’s eventually gets exposed.

[Nell]

Good points. Consider the “direct disciples” John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, Don Rutledge, Max Rapport, who else? Those who either left Lee by choice or were ousted for “cause”. This includes Sandi Rapport, and others who were railroaded in the alleged “sisters rebellion” that was not.

Nell

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Nell

Good points. Consider the “direct disciples” John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, Don Rutledge, Max Rapport, who else? Those who either left Lee by choice or were ousted for “cause”. This includes Sandi Rapport, and others who were railroaded in the alleged “sisters rebellion” that was not.

Nell

Who else? Don Hardy and Christian Chen come to mind.
What is the real story with the “sisters rebellion”? It seems Sandi was dealt with publicly in Max's absence?
There is a point to my question. If there is any factual accuracy, then the wife of Christian Chen was dealt with the same way; in Christian's absence.
It almost seems there is no coincidence these elders wives were publicly maligned in their husbands absence.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by TLFisher

Who else? Don Hardy and Christian Chen come to mind.
What is the real story with the “sisters rebellion”? It seems Sandi was dealt with publicly in Max's absence?
There is a point to my question. If there is any factual accuracy, then the wife of Christian Chen was dealt with the same way; in Christian's absence.
It almost seems there is no coincidence these elders wives were publicly maligned in their husbands absence.

The whole story is posted on this forum. I’ll find it for you. You appear to be the last member to access this link before me. There are more links I'll try to find for you.

2006: The Thread of Gold Chronicles, The Holy Sisters
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...splay.php?f=49

There is a .pdf by Matt Adnderson here.


Nell

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Nell

The whole story is posted on this forum. I’ll find it for you. You appear to be the last member to access this link before me. There are more links I'll try to find for you.

2006: The Thread of Gold Chronicles, The Holy Sisters
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...splay.php?f=49

There is a .pdf by Matt Adnderson here.


Nell

Thanks for redirecting me Nell. Quoting you from 2022:

"In a nutshell,
Max went to Lee regarding the behavior of his son Phillip. (You know that story)
Rather than deal with Max directly, Lee seemingly retaliated against Max's wife, Sandee. This retaliation resulted in Max and Sandee leaving "the ministry". There are many stories about Max and his departure. This one is told first hand, in Sandee's words.
At the same time, Benson similarly "dealt with" Jane Anderson both in private and in public."

Same can be said of Christian Chen and his wife. A retaliation or making an example of Christian Chen in Sao Paulo. Christian was away and not in attendance, but his wife was. Whether Witness Lee sent Titus Chu or if Titus did it on his own, the result was the same.

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by Nell

What happened when Witness Lee died? A group of men banded together and took over, calling themselves “blended” and took on the mission of carrying on the “ministry” of Witness Lee.
Nell

From my vantage point the "blended brothers" emerged in a slightly different manner. They banded together for sure, but being already prominent & well known signers of the 1986 pledge of loyalty to WL, these leaders simply fulfilled their vows to WL - till death do us part.

Link to source: https://www.johningalls.com/#/reader...er/15/0.0.37.0

Others who were uncomfortable (or terrified) with the idea of meeting elsewhere simply tagged along in tow behind the new corporate version of Lee. Thus WL's ministry was not allowed to experience a natural death.

There is of course also a spiritual component to Lee's "continuation" since the intelligent forces in the second heavens (likely those same evil entities who enabled Lee to steamroller whistleblowers) still find the Lord's Recovery useful in their plan to keep seeking believers trapped in a state of perpetual infancy.

P.S.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

Others who were uncomfortable (or terrified) with the idea of meeting elsewhere simply tagged along in tow behind the new corporate version of Lee. Thus WL's ministry was not allowed to experience a natural death.

P.S.- I would add peer pressure is not only a problem for teens and college age young people, but for adults here is evidenced by some brothers who signed.
I know for some and maybe more their conscience said no to signing, but peer pressure compelled them to say yes to signing. It was a regretable decision to make.
I think for them it was easier to sign than to be the brother who "sticks out like a sore thumb". After all, who wants to be the one being faced with "questionings" (see shepherdingwords.com on questionings) by the ones who drafted the document or other brothers who signed wanting to know how come you so and so aren't signing?

Yes it is, at least in America. I have heard Europe is in a worse condition, but I cannot verify that. The meetings are quiet, the leading brothers don't know what they are doing, and the older generation keeps cutting down the new ones being gained. Its a mess right now, and there are rumors of a potential split. There is a lot of good in the ministry, but the pride of perceiving that everything in the books is from God Himself is the killing element here. Truth is the highest here, but the practice needs a lot of work before things start looking hopeful again.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Yes it is, at least in America. I have heard Europe is in a worse condition, but I cannot verify that. The meetings are quiet, the leading brothers don't know what they are doing, and the older generation keeps cutting down the new ones being gained. Its a mess right now, and there are rumors of a potential split. There is a lot of good in the ministry, but the pride of perceiving that everything in the books is from God Himself is the killing element here. Truth is the highest here, but the practice needs a lot of work before things start looking hopeful again.

Your comments raise questions. Do you mean ALL meetings in the US are quiet, and all leading brothers in the US don’t know what they are doing? You imply that the volume of “noise/participation” in a meeting is the standard for evaluation of “life”, I.e. quiet meetings = dead.

I think that a “good ministry” and “highest truth” would bring forth fruit of the Spirit, rather than simply loud meetings and men who “know what they’re doing”. Regardless, your comments are well taken and are not only an indication of the condition of the Local Church of Witness Lee, but why it’s declining or dying.

Please register for an account so you can continue discussing your post.

Nell

[Ex-LC-Rosemead]

I believe the Lord's Recovery (LR) with the Living Stream Ministry (LSM) are paralyzed just like it says in Rev.2:22, ...and I will cast her into a bed... When you go to the other verses in the NT for the word study on "bed" you will find it having to do with people who a paralyzed or very sick. So the Lord cast her into a bed. If you consider what is going on now and what they put out, I believe you can see very clearly they are paralyzed or very sick.

I saw a video of Minoru Chen several months ago about the growth rate of the LR. He was explaining from the time period of the early 1970's to mid 2000's I believe. I can not remember how old the video was. But I believe it was around 2007 period. Anyways He said the growth rate was incredible, off the charts between the periods of 1970 to mid eighties. Then it stopped almost went flat lined, like maybe 1 to 3 percent growth rate after that. And the rate had not changed up to that point. He blamed this on the "rebellion" of the mid to late eighties period. But I believe it was the Lord paralyzing her and casting her into a bed. Sometimes you can see the Lord in action in dealing with the churches. Anyways just a thought.

In response to the original question, in 2019 I briefly rejoined the Lord's Recovery because I was curious if anything had changed. Since I was an older sister (30s+), I was invited to the NorCal Sister's Conference. Later on I was lightly chastised for inviting younger sisters to this conference (who did not attend anyway), but I digress.

The entire day of meetings seemed to be a plea to urge sisters to stay in the Lord's Recovery through various lame reasons. Older brother saints also mentioned that "church kids" my age were leaving and there is a need for more young families from my generation (hah).

My impression overall is that certain areas are struggling, while others stay strong (anaheim for one), but there is certainly no more expansion like they supposedly experienced in the past. While they may gain new saints, others are also leaving so it kind of evens out. Just my opinion of course.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Bay Area Girlie

In response to the original question, in 2019 I briefly rejoined the Lord's Recovery because I was curious if anything had changed. Since I was an older sister (30s+), I was invited to the NorCal Sister's Conference. Later on I was lightly chastised for inviting younger sisters to this conference (who did not attend anyway), but I digress.

The entire day of meetings seemed to be a plea to urge sisters to stay in the Lord's Recovery through various lame reasons. Older brother saints also mentioned that "church kids" my age were leaving and there is a need for more young families from my generation (hah).

My impression overall is that certain areas are struggling, while others stay strong (Anaheim for one), but there is certainly no more expansion like they supposedly experienced in the past. While they may gain new saints, others are also leaving so it kind of evens out. Just my opinion of course.

Recovering a Pure Testimony of Jesus
The Vision of the Apostles

In 1994 Brother Lee spoke of the need to have a new revival and that it would be a revival to end the age. And, for this revival to happen, he said we must have a vision, a vision of the age. To carry out the vision, he said we must have a minister who ministers according to the vision. “Since we have seen such a high peak of the divine revelation, we need to put into practice what we have seen. Our practice will have a success and that success will be a new revival - the highest revival, and probably the last revival before the Lord’s coming back.” (Living a Life According to the High Peak of God’s Revelation, p. 39)

So far, following the vision of the age set forth by Brother Lee long ago has not brought revival and actually distracts people from the vision of the New Testament age. Our vision is found in the gospels, the Acts and the teachings of the apostles. What vision? The vision of the apostles! They were all in one ministry to produce one thing.

None stood apart and above the others as exemplified in Paul’s attitude of inclusion in Corinth of fellow ministers of the New Testament vision. Rather than quadron off a section of overcomers in Corinth to follow him as the minister of the age, Paul wrote to the Corinthians and said, “Is Christ divided”, and pointed to Christ and to their calling to participate in Him, and thus avert confusion, exclusion, and division. In this way Paul blended in the Body, not only with the Corinthians, but also with his fellow ministers of Christ. He berated no one for their lack of vision. He also encouraged them in his letter to be blended together and to have the same care for one another that there may be no division in the Body. _This is to have the vision of the age.

It is the vision throughout this New Testament age to minister according to, if we are to be in the reality of the Body. If we follow the “vision of the age” speak, it is actually to produce overcomers within the churches – it is not like getting a letter from Paul to the Corinthians with a vision of the blending of the weak and the strong; the comely and the uncomely, where every member is important and included in God’s expression and a pure testimony of Jesus. Rather, following their vision is for those who are willing to submit to absolute authority – with their money, time, houses, jobs – forsaking all to gain “an invincible morale” to “march over all obstacles” and “conquer wherever we go.” _Vision of the Age

Brother Lee’s New Vision and the New Standard

Brother Lee knew these things I have mentioned. So does Bob Danker know and the blending brothers today. They just don’t maintain this vision, the vision of the New Testament age, and even created a new vision. It is actually the same but with bells and whistles and a new minister of the age, boldly claimed by him, and proclaimed by the blended brothers.

Concerning Watchman Nee and himself, Brother Lee submitted,

“I followed Brother Nee absolutely; yet I was not following the person, I was following the vision that he saw. If you remained in that vision, you were serving according to the vision. In that age, the vision that came up to God’s standard was the vision that Brother Nee saw. If you remained in that vision, you were serving according to the vision. If you did not remain in that vision, you were not serving according to the vision”. He continues,

“Today, Brother Nee has passed away. I have no intention to make a new start, but the Lord has commissioned me with this ministry. I can only take the lead willingly and obediently. The vision that I have brought to you today is God’s vision for this age. If you remain in this vision, you are serving according to the vision. If you do not remain in this vision, you should be aware of what your end will be.” (Vision of the Age p 52) This was one month after the pledge by 417 brothers to follow Bro. Lee absolutely.

A blending brother writes that “this and many other passages in Brother Lee’s writings indicate that he considered both Watchman Nee and himself to be the ones who passed on to God’s people the vision of the present age”. (Bob Danker, Minister of the Age, p. 12)

Yes, Brother Bob, you mean Nee in China, and Lee in the U.S., particularly with reference to his high peak teachings, which distinguished him from Watchman Nee, and made him the new minister of the age with the ministry of the age, engendering major attraction to him and his publications. This following of Brother Lee and his vision of the age led to confusion, exclusion, and division.

Bob Danker’s Commendation of the New Vision

Bob Danker writes, “Outside the vision Brother Lee brought us – God’s consummate vision, the completed vision of the age, the bountiful and all-sufficient vision of God’s eternal economy in the Bible – there is no other vision. The vision of the age has been passed on to us in the writings of Brother Nee and Brother Lee[/B][/COLOR]. Our unique responsibility today is to enter fully into this vision and to serve the Lord in His unique recovery under this unique vision.”

Actually, “our unique responsibility” is to make things right with God and man and build up the Body of Christ in love. If you know all mysteries but have not love, you are as a clanging cymbal, lifting up men and also a vision that nobody can keep.

I think if people in the Local Churches really want a revival they need to see a different vision, that of our church history and the huge need of repentance in the Lord’s recovery that there has been for several decades. If we don’t understand the history; we don’t understand this imperative need in the Body. More and more messages and a busy church life schedule cannot hold down the truth, ultimately.

Watchman Nee and Witness Lee are lifted up as ministers of the age and full attention is given to their ministries. But attention is not given to understand their failures, which keeps the attention on their ministries only. This is not to love the Lord and His Body. Many matters need to be cleared up and dealt with to gain a pure testimony of Jesus in the churches. And, bring in revival to bring the Lord back.

Both ministers of the age failed (according to Brother Lee’s word) to bring the churches into the reality of the vision they saw; but that may be okay. We might say Paul, Peter, James, and John failed also, and many through the centuries. But to continue for decades denying obvious corruption and damage in the Body under Local Church jurisdiction in Shanghai, Taipei, and Anaheim - beachheads of the ministers of the age - is totally irresponsible of Local Church leadership.

Ones who would address the abhorrent condition in Anaheim during the fateful reign of Philip Lee were quarantined. Ones who were in Shanghai have written a book in their eighties to point to the corrupting elements of their time that many years since could not erase from their memory. There were many tears of anguish, despair and disillusionment in Shanghai, and also in Taipei where a grievous detailed report of their history was made, including unethical and illegal handling of money in the “deacon office”, a practice transported from the Anaheim “deacon office”, where such corruption began.

Concerning the Lord’s Recovery

In 1983 Brother Lee shared in Concerning the Lord’s Recovery that the Bible was a book of recovery.
Foreword by Benson Phillips: “In both the Old Testament and the New Testament God's purpose, intention, and goal to have man as His expression is clearly revealed. Also, His accomplishments according to that intention can be clearly seen. Furthermore, both Testaments give a clear record of how Satan, God's enemy, works to corrupt and destroy what God has accomplished. Finally, the two Testaments reveal how God comes in after Satan's destruction to regain His expression. This regaining of His expression is the basic matter of the Lord's recovery. God plans and God accomplishes; then Satan destroys and God recovers.”

Witness Lee shares in his book on “the basic matter” of recovery – regaining God’s expression. “The complete model of the church in the Old Testament was the temple. When the temple was fully built up, the glory of God came down. This means that God Himself came down as the glory to cover the temple and to fill the temple up. That was the picture of the full accomplishment of God's purpose.

Lost

“But then Satan came in first to ruin and corrupt the people. The temple was built up during the glorious reign of Solomon the king. But Solomon himself took the lead to become rotten and corrupt. He was corrupted by the pagan concubines. The concubines brought in the idols, and this ruined the people. The entire nation of Israel was ruined, so God had no way to dwell among them. He had to give them up. Then the Babylonian army came to destroy the temple and the Holy City and to capture the people away to Babylon. The first forefather of the children of Israel was Abraham, who was called out of Babel. Satan came in to bring all of Abraham's descendants back to the very place Abraham was called out of. So whatever God accomplished was gone.” (Concerning the Lord’s Recovery, online, ch 1, sect 2, 1983, W. Lee)

Regained

“But after seventy years God came in to do a recovery work. God came in to recover the thing that was lost. In the recovery of God's expression the scale was not so big as the original, but the quality was higher. By reading Ezra, Nehemiah, Haggai, and Zechariah you could see that the returned people were deeply dealt with by God. Their spiritual morality and character were higher than those of the children of Israel before the temple was built. In a sense Solomon was not that moral; he had many concubines. That is terrible! That is a kind of unveiling of the rottenness of that king of wisdom. He was wise, but he was rotten. His morality was too low! But after the captivity, in the recovery, the character of God's people was very much uplifted. If you considered Ezra and Nehemiah, you would have to admit that these leaders were pure and moral. Their character had a high standard. So as to quality the Lord's recovery was higher than what had been there previously.” (chapter 1, section 3, 1983)

Gaining A Pure Testimony of Jesus - Witness Lee, 1983

“The Lord's recovery is really among us, and, although the scale is quite small, the standard of the character is higher than Christianity. In the Lord's recovery the high standard of the character must be kept and maintained. Some have checked with me asking, Do you mean that all the other Christians are rotten and that only the local church people are not rotten? I don't mean that. If any people have become rotten, they are no more in the reality of the Lord's recovery. Whatever and whoever is rotten is not in the recovery. The local churches are people who have been recovered out of their rottenness back to the pure church life. The local church is not a kind of organization or religious group. The local church is the pure church life as a pure testimony of Jesus. If we become rotten, we are no longer in the reality of the Lord's recovery. (Witness Lee, chap. 1 section 4, 1983)

“This is why in the New Testament the Apostle Paul would not tolerate any kind of immorality. In 1 Corinthians 5 Paul charged the church not to associate with that immoral person. The church as a pure testimony of Christ would not tolerate any impurity, any immorality. The church has to be pure. Once the church becomes rotten, it loses its nature and standing as the Lord's testimony….” (ch 1, section 4)

On Not Reaching the Standard of our Vision - 1994

Eleven years later Witness Lee shares about not succeeding to reach the standard over a 72 year period. “From Brother Nee’s time until today, for seventy-two years, our practice has never come up to the standard of our vision that we have received of the Lord. Brother Nee stressed two things: Christ as life to produce the church and the church as the Body of Christ to express Christ. But, sorry to say, it was not only the outsiders who did not know these things; even among Brother Nee’s co-workers, who were my contemporaries, very few have fully entered into the realization of these two matters. Not to mention the matter of the Body of Christ, they did not even see the matter of Christ as life to us.

“In 1934 a letter came to me from Watchman Nee saying…that the vision we had received from the Lord concerned Christ as our life to produce the church, not as an organization but as a Body, an organism, to express Christ. This, he said, is what we have seen, and this is what we should preach and teach. Brother Nee wrote these words twelve years after the beginning of the recovery in China in 1922.

“From the time that I began my ministry until today I have put out many books concerning the vision that we have seen. Through all the years, in mainland China, in Taiwan, in southeast Asia, and in the West today, in our practice we have never come up to the standard of what we have seen.” (Living a Life According to the High Peak of God’s Revelation, p. 38, W. L.)

The Vision Climbs but not the Practice 1984-1994

Brother Lee refers to receiving more revelation, as the vision climbed, and so did the sale of books, but not the practice of the vision. It did distinguish him from Watchman Nee and made him now one who had developed an utterance of God’s economy like no one before him:

“In the past ten years the Lord has shown us His economy. According to my study of church history and the biographies of many saints, I would say that before 1984 God’s eternal economy as the very reality and the center of the Bible was never seen by God’s people so fully as today among us. To my knowledge, no other book has pointed out that God’s eternal economy has Christ as its center and reality, with His Body, the organic Body of Christ, as the organism to the Triune God. Today we have come to this high peak of God’s divine revelation. I would even say that we have probably reached the highest peak of the divine revelation in the entire Bible. This is the divine revelation discovered by the believers through the past twenty centuries. (Living a Life According to the High Peak of God’s Revelation, p. 38, W. L.)

He then explained the history of the teaching of the triune God and then expounded on living the life of a God-man before ending this final chapter of the book with the emphatic message that “the goal of our practice should be to live the life of a God-man. “This is the goal we should reach. Since we have seen such a high peak of the divine revelation we need to put into practice what we have seen. Our practice will have a success and that success will be a new revival….” Not yet, though the utterance is impressive.

It is much better to see the vision of our failure; be abhorred by it; and pursue determinedly a good conscience before God and man - and a pure testimony of Jesus.

Living according to the Vision

In that age, the vision that came up to God’s standard was the vision that Brother Nee saw. If you remained in that vision, you were serving according to the vision. If you did not remain in that vision, you were not serving according to the vision”.

He continues,

“Today, Brother Nee has passed away. I have no intention to make a new start, but the Lord has commissioned me with this ministry. I can only take the lead willingly and obediently. The vision that I have brought to you today is God’s vision for this age. If you remain in this vision, you are serving according to the vision. If you do not remain in this vision, you should be aware of what your end will be.” (Vision of the Age p 52) This was one month after the pledge by 417 brothers to follow Bro. Lee absolutely.

A blending brother writes that “this and many other passages in Brother Lee’s writings indicate that he considered both Watchman Nee and himself to be the ones who passed on to God’s people the vision of the present age”. (Bob Danker, Minister of the Age, p. 12)
Yes, Brother Bob, you mean Nee in China, and Lee in the U.S., particularly with reference to his high peak teachings, which distinguished him from Watchman Nee, and made him the new minister of the age with the ministry of the age, engendering major attraction to him and his publications. This following of Brother Lee and his vision of the age led to confusion, exclusion, and division.

Bob Danker’s Commendation of the New Vision

Bob Danker writes, “Outside the vision Brother Lee brought us – God’s consummate vision, the completed vision of the age, the bountiful and all-sufficient vision of God’s eternal economy in the Bible – there is no other vision. The vision of the age has been passed on to us in the writings of Brother Nee and Brother Lee. Our unique responsibility today is to enter fully into this vision and to serve the Lord in His unique recovery under this unique vision.”

Actually, “our unique responsibility” is to make things right with God and man and build up the Body of Christ in love. If you know all mysteries but have not love, you are as a clanging cymbal, lifting up men and also a vision that nobody can keep.

I think if people in the Local Churches really want a revival they need to see a different vision, that of our church history and the huge need of repentance in the Lord’s recovery that there has been for several decades. If we don’t understand the history; we don’t understand this imperative need in the Body. More and more messages and a busy church life schedule cannot hold down the truth, ultimately.

Watchman Nee and Witness Lee are lifted up as ministers of the age and full attention is given to their ministries. But attention is not given to understand their failures, which keeps the attention on their ministries only. This is not to love the Lord and His Body. Many matters need to be cleared up and dealt with to gain a pure testimony of Jesus in the churches.

Both ministers of the age failed (according to Brother Lee’s word) to bring the churches into the reality of the vision they saw; but that may be okay. We might say Paul, Peter, James, and John failed also, and many through the centuries. But to continue for decades denying obvious corruption and damage in the Body under Local Church jurisdiction in Shanghai, Taipei, and Anaheim - beachheads of the ministers of the age - is totally irresponsible of Local Church leadership.

Ones who would address the abhorrent condition in Anaheim during the fateful reign of Philip Lee were quarantined. Ones who were in Shanghai have written a book in their eighties to point to the corrupting elements of their time that many years since could not erase from their memory. There were many tears of anguish, despair and disillusionment in Shanghai, and also in Taipei where a grievous detailed report of their history was made.

Concerning the Lord’s Recovery

In 1983 Brother Lee shared in Concerning the Lord’s Recovery that the Bible was a book of recovery.

Foreword by Benson Phillips:

“In both the Old Testament and the New Testament God's purpose, intention, and goal to have man as His expression is clearly revealed. Also, His accomplishments according to that intention can be clearly seen. Furthermore, both Testaments give a clear record of how Satan, God's enemy, works to corrupt and destroy what God has accomplished. Finally, the two Testaments reveal how God comes in after Satan's destruction to regain His expression. This regaining of His expression is the basic matter of the Lord's recovery. God plans and God accomplishes; then Satan destroys and God recovers.”

Witness Lee shares in his book on “the basic matter” of recovery – regaining God’s expression. “The complete model of the church in the Old Testament was the temple. When the temple was fully built up, the glory of God came down. This means that God Himself came down as the glory to cover the temple and to fill the temple up. That was the picture of the full accomplishment of God's purpose.

Lost

“But then Satan came in first to ruin and corrupt the people. The temple was built up during the glorious reign of Solomon the king. But Solomon himself took the lead to become rotten and corrupt. He was corrupted by the pagan concubines. The concubines brought in the idols, and this ruined the people. The entire nation of Israel was ruined, so God had no way to dwell among them. He had to give them up. Then the Babylonian army came to destroy the temple and the Holy City and to capture the people away to Babylon. The first forefather of the children of Israel was Abraham, who was called out of Babel. Satan came in to bring all of Abraham's descendants back to the very place Abraham was called out of. So whatever God accomplished was gone.” (Concerning the Lord’s Recovery, online, ch 1, sect 2, 1983, W. Lee)

Regained

“But after seventy years God came in to do a recovery work. God came in to recover the thing that was lost. In the recovery of God's expression the scale was not so big as the original, but the quality was higher. By reading Ezra, Nehemiah, Haggai, and Zechariah you could see that the returned people were deeply dealt with by God. Their spiritual morality and character were higher than those of the children of Israel before the temple was built. In a sense Solomon was not that moral; he had many concubines. That is terrible! That is a kind of unveiling of the rottenness of that king of wisdom. He was wise, but he was rotten. His morality was too low! But after the captivity, in the recovery, the character of God's people was very much uplifted. If you considered Ezra and Nehemiah, you would have to admit that these leaders were pure and moral. Their character had a high standard. So as to quality the Lord's recovery was higher than what had been there previously.” (chapter 1, section 3, 1983)

Gaining A Pure Testimony of Jesus - Witness Lee, 1983

“The Lord's recovery is really among us, and, although the scale is quite small, the standard of the character is higher than Christianity. In the Lord's recovery the high standard of the character must be kept and maintained. Some have checked with me asking, Do you mean that all the other Christians are rotten and that only the local church people are not rotten? I don't mean that. If any people have become rotten, they are no more in the reality of the Lord's recovery. Whatever and whoever is rotten is not in the recovery. The local churches are people who have been recovered out of their rottenness back to the pure church life. The local church is not a kind of organization or religious group. The local church is the pure church life as a pure testimony of Jesus. If we become rotten, we are no longer in the reality of the Lord's recovery. (Witness Lee, chap. 1 section 4, 1983)

“This is why in the New Testament the Apostle Paul would not tolerate any kind of immorality. In 1 Corinthians 5 Paul charged the church not to associate with that immoral person. The church as a pure testimony of Christ would not tolerate any impurity, any immorality. The church has to be pure. Once the church becomes rotten, it loses its nature and standing as the Lord's testimony….” (ch 1, section 4)

On Not Reaching the Standard of our Vision - 1994

Eleven years later Witness Lee shares about not succeeding to reach the standard over a 72 year period.

“From Brother Nee’s time until today, for seventy-two years, our practice has never come up to the standard of our vision that we have received of the Lord. Brother Nee stressed two things: Christ as life to produce the church and the church as the Body of Christ to express Christ. But, sorry to say, it was not only the outsiders who did not know these things; even among Brother Nee’s co-workers, who were my contemporaries, very few have fully entered into the realization of these two matters. Not to mention the matter of the Body of Christ, they did not even see the matter of Christ as life to us.

“In 1934 a letter came to me from Watchman Nee saying…that the vision we had received from the Lord concerned Christ as our life to produce the church, not as an organization but as a Body, an organism, to express Christ. This, he said, is what we have seen, and this is what we should preach and teach. Brother Nee wrote these words twelve years after the beginning of the recovery in China in 1922.
“From the time that I began my ministry until today I have put out many books concerning the vision that we have seen. Through all the years, in mainland China, in Taiwan, in southeast Asia, and in the West today, in our practice we have never come up to the standard of what we have seen.” (Living a Life According to the High Peak of God’s Revelation, p. 38, W. L.)

The Vision Climbs but not the Practice 1984-1994

Brother Lee refers to receiving more revelation, as the vision climbed, and so did the sale of books, but not the practice of the vision. It did distinguish him from Watchman Nee and made him now one who had developed an utterance of God’s economy like no one before him:

“In the past ten years the Lord has shown us His economy. According to my study of church history and the biographies of many saints, I would say that before 1984 God’s eternal economy as the very reality and the center of the Bible was never seen by God’s people so fully as today among us. To my knowledge, no other book has pointed out that God’s eternal economy has Christ as its center and reality, with His Body, the organic Body of Christ, as the organism to the Triune God. Today we have come to this high peak of God’s divine revelation. I would even say that we have probably reached the highest peak of the divine revelation in the entire Bible. This is the divine revelation discovered by the believers through the past twenty centuries. (Living a Life According to the High Peak of God’s Revelation, p. 38, W. L.)

He then explained the history of the teaching of the triune God and then expounded on living the life of a God-man before ending this final chapter of the book with the emphatic message that “the goal of our practice should be to live the life of a God-man. “This is the goal we should reach. Since we have seen such a high peak of the divine revelation we need to put into practice what we have seen. Our practice will have a success and that success will be a new revival….” Not yet; although the utterance is impressive.
It is much better to see the vision of our failure; be abhorred by it; and pursue determinedly a good conscience before God and man - and a pure testimony of Jesus.

Shanghai - Lily Hsu Book / Timeline Watchman Nee Era
Taipei - Taipei History
Larry Chi Anaheim -Timeline of Witness Lee Era

S.I. 02-21-2016

Originally Posted by Ex-LC-Rosemead

I believe the Lord's Recovery (LR) with the Living Stream Ministry (LSM) are paralyzed just like it says in Rev.2:22, ...and I will cast her into a bed... When you go to the other verses in the NT for the word study on "bed" you will find it having to do with people who a paralyzed or very sick. So the Lord cast her into a bed. If you consider what is going on now and what they put out, I believe you can see very clearly they are paralyzed or very sick.



I saw a video of Minoru Chen several months ago about the growth rate of the LR. He was explaining from the time period of the early 1970's to mid 2000's I believe. I can not remember how old the video was. But I believe it was around 2007 period. Anyways He said the growth rate was incredible, off the charts between the periods of 1970 to mid eighties. Then it stopped almost went flat lined, like maybe 1 to 3 percent growth rate after that. And the rate had not changed up to that point. He blamed this on the "rebellion" of the mid to late eighties period. But I believe it was the Lord paralyzing her and casting her into a bed. Sometimes you can see the Lord in action in dealing with the churches. Anyways just a thought.

Because the internet blew up in popularity around that time (2000-present). People probably got online and learned it’s a cult. I believe that’s happening now. The moment you google “Witness Lee” or “local churches” or “Living Stream Ministry” up pops up a bunch of links talking about how it’s a cult. People aren’t dumb anymore. They’re not naive to how cults work and thanks to the availability of information people can easily look them up and find the real truth

This is why the “blended” brothers worked so hard to convince everyone following them that all the “storms” were because of ambition or dissension or whatever lies they used. Now people can just look it up and find out the real reasons for these things

The Lord said the things done in the dark will come to the light. They can’t hide anymore!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ex-LC-Rosemead

I saw a video of Minoru Chen several months ago about the growth rate of the LR. He was explaining from the time period of the early 1970's to mid 2000's I believe. I can not remember how old the video was. But I believe it was around 2007 period. Anyways He said the growth rate was incredible, off the charts between the periods of 1970 to mid eighties. Then it stopped almost went flat lined, like maybe 1 to 3 percent growth rate after that. And the rate had not changed up to that point. He blamed this on the "rebellion" of the mid to late eighties period. But I believe it was the Lord paralyzing her and casting her into a bed. Sometimes you can see the Lord in action in dealing with the churches. Anyways just a thought.

Truth or myth, I heard following "the Rosemead Rebellion" Minoru begged Don Hardy for forgiveness regarding his role in forcing Don's resignation as an elder from the Church in Rosemead. What was the "rebellion" of the mid to late eighties period really about? At that time it was the excessive emphasis on doorknocking that caused my withdrawal from meeting. Others it could have been different.

As for Rosemead, Anaheim, etc, I suspect it was different. It's been said you cannot have transparency without accountability. The co-workers Minoru included are not transparent, because they are not accountable. If the co-workers were accountable, shouldn't there be a corporate repentance?
Until there is, I see the co-workers as part of the problem when they could have been part of the solution.

He who conceals his sins will not prosper. But whoever confesses and renounces them will find mercy- Proverbs 28:13

But your iniquities have built barriers between you and your God. And your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he does not hear- Isaiah 59:2

Of course they’re part of the problem. They’re right there along with it. They aided and abetted illegal crimes. Massive fraud and ongoing sexual assault. If they would have put a stop to it then possibly they could have saved the people who were effected. The Chinese excommunicated Watchman Nee in 1942 for his licentiousness. He also was accused of sexual assault by Lily Hsu in her book. Yet they let him back in as their leader in 1948. And then directly that same year he came out with three books on Spiritual Authority to solidify his unquestioned reign over the local churches. This is a major fault. They did the same thing with Philip Lee after he was excommunicated. God sees all this

Lee and his sons frauded the saints to fund their bad business dealings. They stole money from the saints to get Witness Lee and his family rich and they indirectly succeeded after Lee started charging for the trainings. This made him a millionaire. They ruined lives and then covered it up in the process. Are these men of God? They put on a good show but God’s gonna sort them out, trust that. These men are wolves, charlatans in the worst way. They probably think they’re justified somehow because the “truth” as Lee’s ministry is getting out there. Is this how God does things?

Sure there’s some truths in the ministry but they ultimately lead to the LC cult, which is dead and dying. Laodecia, a rotting corpse. Lee asked us to “pick out the meat and ignore the bones.” Well unfortunately his “bones” ruined a lot of people and broke up families and marriages. His “bones” cause people to be controlled and enslaved mentally. I am constantly reading testimonials of people who thirty years later are looking back at the chaos that their time in the LC caused their families in various ways. Divorce is not uncommon. In some extreme cases we see physical death. Sorry but these men are responsible and eventually will be held accountable

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Of course they’re part of the problem. They’re right there along with it. They aided and abetted illegal crimes. Massive fraud and ongoing sexual assault. If they would have put a stop to it then possibly they could have saved the people who were effected.

Emphasis mine. Sure there were elders and co-workers that could have done the right thing instead of ignoring their conscience.
Co-workers in the Recovery only need to look in the mirror what they didn't do in order to explain exodus and attrition within the Recovery.
Sure not all of them "aided and abetted illegal crimes", but a good majority didn't heed their conscience and ask questions.
Instead a good majority ignore their conscience and choose not to believe a sister like a Jo Castell, or other saints that have raised concern. Instead of looking into it, you're the problem is what they say. "Just cover the brother" is their attitude.
Whenever there are crimes committed within the recovery, don't defer the deacons, elders, co-workers to do the right thing. Law enforcement is not within their scope. We must be those who exercise due diligence to report crimes to law enforcement.

[Sunshine]

Not only that but to also say awful untrue statements about Jo Castell and evil labelling her and causing blind followers of Witness Lee to repeat those statements. That really disgusted me to the uttermost.
-

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The Chinese excommunicated Watchman Nee in 1942 for his licentiousness. He also was accused of sexual assault by Lily Hsu in her book.

Yet they let him back in as their leader in 1948.

Thanks for the great summary you provided to us Unregistered!

Only two things I would add to it:

First off, Dr. Lily Hsu's book actually has a respected co-author who validated her findings. For some reason, an important Book Review by co-author Dana Roberts in 2013 is now missing from Amazon:
Link to my screenshot: https://blendedbody.com/4LCD/DanaRoberts2013.png

Secondly, the "THEY" who enabled an unrepentant Nee to take the lead once again was actually an evil-genius arm-twisting community organizer by the name of Witness Lee. Were it not for the "Resumption" campaign cooked up by Witness Lee in 1948 - hardly anyone alive today would consider Watchman Nee to have been a godly Martyr.

P.S.

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

Secondly, the "THEY" who enabled an unrepentant Nee to take the lead once again was actually an evil-genius arm-twisting community organizer by the name of Witness Lee. Were it not for the "Resumption" campaign cooked up by Witness Lee in 1948 - hardly anyone alive today would consider Watchman Nee to have been a godly Martyr.

Thank you for sharing these things. I was unaware. The pieces of the puzzle come together

It makes a lot of sense now. Of course Lee would be Nee’s advocate, he was his successor. They were two master mind benders working together to create a cult of man worship and consolidate their power. It eventually made Lee very rich and whoever he chose as his beneficiaries very rich as well. What a con!

I suppose Lee’s beneficiaries would be his extended family (to my knowledge he had eleven children and probably a multitude of in-laws), as well as Nee’s extended family and probably now to whatever degree the blended brothers are now benefiting and their extended families. They certainly don’t have to work like Paul did! They’re gladly siphoning the saint’s money for their own purposes. All in the name of doing God’s “up to date” work. Wow

Because we always assumed Nee and Lee were above reproach we never thought twice to question their explanations of these events. We just believed Lee when he said it was lies due to ambition or whatever against Nee. Or just a mix up or a misunderstanding as to why Nee traveled with a female companion and visited women in their homes at all hours, etc.

Uncanny

[Ex-LC-Rosemead]

Originally Posted by TLFisher

Truth or myth, I heard following "the Rosemead Rebellion" Minoru begged Don Hardy for forgiveness regarding his role in forcing Don's resignation as an elder from the Church in Rosemead. What was the "rebellion" of the mid to late eighties period really about? At that time it was the excessive emphasis on doorknocking that caused my withdrawal from meeting. Others it could have been different.

As for Rosemead, Anaheim, etc, I suspect it was different. It's been said you cannot have transparency without accountability. The co-workers Minoru included are not transparent, because they are not accountable. If the co-workers were accountable, shouldn't there be a corporate repentance?
Until there is, I see the co-workers as part of the problem when they could have been part of the solution.

I remember being told that three out of the five repented for what they did to Don Hardy. I remember being told that Al Knock repented. But to be honest I can not remember the other two, but my best guess would be Ken Unger, and Bill Duane. I know for sure Francis Ball never repented. My guess is Minoru Chen did not repent because he is still in the LC in a very strong way. If he did repent it was not a true repentance because that would require him to re-evaluate his whole position and manner of conduct toward brothers and sisters in Christ.



I have attached the transcript, that I found recently, of the that meeting in Rosemead on 11-1-1987 where Don Hardy gives a first hand account of what took place in Anaheim regarding his removal.


One of the main reasons Rosemead cut off Witness Lee (WL) and the Living Stream Ministry (LSM) was their attempt to replace the bible meetings with the life study messages. The elders took the stand and said, and I am recalling from many years back, the Life-study messages are good and should be read on your own time. But here on Lord's Day we will continue to go through the bible as we have done before. That is, we picked a book and went through it sometimes verse by verse and chapter by chapter until we finished that book. I remember those meetings were so good and caught me as a young person. The word of God was so precious because so many shared from their experience and knowledge of the word with no help from the life-studies. Anyways there were Leeites in our meeting, lead by Francis Ball and John Kwan, pushing pray reading and chanting of the Lord's Name for the WHOLE MEETING without ever opening or touching the bible. The meeting eventually became a mess. Also at that time Witness Lee was being promoted as the living Oracle of God, the Deputy Authority, and the one carrying out God's move on the earth. It was very clear early on that Rosemead recognized that the LSM was inferring with the meetings. And Rosemead took action to stop it. It wasn't too long after that meeting, with Don Hardy, and what Francis Ball shared, about following a MAN, that Rosemead took action to literally amputate any association with WL and the LSM. They also evicted the Francis Ball and John Kwan from the premises of the meeting hall. We stayed in the word of God and never replaced it. Please do not misunderstand, Rosemead was eventually tagged as "not being one with the ministry" and many, like 70-80%, of the English speaking side left. The ones remaining, including myself, stayed and continued on with the Lord in the best way. The older brothers and elders starting checking the scriptures on the doctrine put out by WL & the LSM and were convinced they were in the wrong. Eventually it was stated WL was not a disciple of the Lord anymore and had lost his way. Anyways let us press forward in our walk with the living God and his Son.