Eternal Salvation Is Free; Ruling With Christ Is Earned

[Raptor]

The pattern in both the Old and New Testaments clearly describes that salvation is a gift by grace through faith, yet ruling and reigining with Christ in the Millenial Kingdom will be a reward earned by works.

For example, to be an elder or deacon in 1 Timothy 3, there are a series of qualififications. If there are requirements other than being a believer to be a leader in a church, which is temporary and very localized, surely there are requirements to be a co-king with Christ in the Millenial Kingdom.

[TheStarswillFall]

What do you do with Gal 3:1-6 ?

Paul says that the believer should CONTINUE his course in the same principle he BEGAN his course - by RECEIVING the Spirit through the hearing of FAITH (just like Abraham).

Approved WORKS are an issue of genuine faith, just like justification, forgiveness, regeneration, sanctification etc. Please note that the work is actually God's work.

1 Cor 3:10-15 also states that believers BUILD upon the FOUNDATION which is Christ. What are the available materials? Gold, silver and precious stones (God's work) .... wood, grass and stubble (man's work)

No man can EARN anything before God. God will always point you to His Christ!

Lay hold of Christ and His work, and God will richly reward you with His kingdom - Gal 6:16-23.
The kingdom of God is the full development of the kingdom seed within man (Mark 4:26-29).
You don't EARN the kingdom, you RECEIVE it by FAITHin Christ Jesus through God's GRACE- in the very SAME PRINCIPLE you received the kingdom seed to begin with!

What did Jesus say? "Apart from Me YOU CAN DO (earn) NOTHING"

Eternal Salvation is free (yet Christ paid the highest price for us to receive salvation)
Reigning with Christ is free (yet Christ overcame and sat with His Father on His throne for us to reign with Him)

O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before whose eyes Christ was openly portrayed crucified? Only one thing I wish to learn from you, did you RECEIVE THE SPIRIT...
After BEGINNING by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to FINISH by means of the flesh (earning it by your own effort)??????

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by TheStarswillFall

What do you do with Gal 3:1-6 ?

Paul says that the believer should CONTINUE his course in the same principle he BEGAN his course - by receiving the Spirit through the hearing of faith (just like Abraham).

The (approved) WORKS are an issue of genuine faith, just like justification, forgiveness and regeneration, sanctification etc.

1 Cor 3:10-15 also states that believers BUILD upon the FOUNDATION which is Christ. What are the available materials? Gold, silver and precious stones (God's work in man) .... wood, grass and stubble (man's work for God)

No man can EARN anything before God. God will always point you to His Christ!

Lay hold of Christ and His work, and God will richly reward you with His kingdom - Gal 6:16 - 23. The kingdom of God is the full development of the kingdom seed within man (Mark 4:26-29) You don't EARN the kingdom, you receive it by faith in Christ Jesus through God's grace - in the very same way you received the kingdom seed to begin with!

What did Jesus say? "Apart from Me YOU CAN DO (earn) NOTHING"

Eternal Salvation is free (Yet Christ paid the ultimate price for this)
Reigning with Christ is free (Yet Christ overcame and sat with His Father on His throne for this)

O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before whose eyes Christ was openly portrayed crucified?....

This post is full of half truths.

The new covenant, with forgiveness of sins and eternal life, are free to all who believe in the Son and are born of God. In this regard, any works we do to pay our sin debts to the law of God are merely dead works.

But judgment begins in the house of God, and we all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ. Not to pay the debt for our sins, but whether our walk with God was worthy or worthless. Were we vessels unto honor or vessels of shame? Were we obedient to the will of God, or walking disorderly? Were we faithful to the Lord, or was our faith shipwrecked? Did we gain profit for the Lord, or did we bury what God had given us? Were we full-grown sons or life-long infants?

We all must consider questions like these, and more, from scripture.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by TheStarswillFall

What do you do with Gal 3:1-6 ?
You don't EARN the kingdom, you RECEIVE it by FAITHin Christ Jesus through God's GRACE- in the very SAME PRINCIPLE you received the kingdom seed to begin with!

I like the analogy of the kingdom seed and believe Jesus gave us the parable of the sower to demonstrate the relationship of his free gift of grace and what is required on our behalf for salvation.

God's seed is freely distributed by the sower and not merited. The sower does not intervene to change the condition of the soil but simply lets the seeds fall where they may. I believe the soil points to our heart or free will and we are responsible for making it the good earth by removing the thorns (the idols of our heart) and making it soft (through humbling ourselves). This is accomplished when one lets go of their life and gives it to Jesus (see Matthew 16:25). Once the seed lands, God causes the growth and all the glory, credit and praise for the work goes to him. I believe salvation is a free gift but we are responsible for allowing the Holy Spirit to make our hearts ready to receive it.

Christians disagree on which of the soils are saved. I lean towards only the fourth soil, the good earth being saved using scripture to interpret scripture and will make a case for it.

Regarding whether the thorny soil with the plant that produced no fruit is saved, Jesus appears to zoom in on a case study of this in John 15 where he compares the branch which produced fruit against the branch which did not and says the branch that did not bear fruit is cast into the fire and burned (John 15:6). Note here that the branch is the one being burned and not the fruit (works) and Jesus says we are the branches in John 15:5.

This theme is repeated again in the parable of the talents where the servant who hid his one talent in the ground is cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:31). The question here is outer darkness hell or heaven's suburb? Using scripture to interpret scripture again the answer appears to be hell according to Matt 13:42 where the seed of Satan developing into the tares which are clearly the unsaved, are thrown "into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Note Matthew's usage of "weeping and gnashing of teeth" in both cases.

Outside the parables, we see this theme in James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." If we are saved by faith alone (Eph 2:8-9) then the absence of faith implies that salvation was not reached.

Verses like Galatians 5:24 also suggest that dying to our old man to produce the good earth is not optional: "And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." Paul repeats this in Romans 8:13 "For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." This is not works salvation because works are what our heart produces. Dying to self is something we do in our heart and not outside of it.

Galatians 2:20 sums up the above quite well:
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

The second rocky soil resulted in a plant that had no root and withered away. This one is easier to deal with since there are many verses in scripture that explain the fate of one who walks away from Christ:

1 Cor 15:2
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Matthew 24:13
But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Hebrews 3:14
For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

Matthew 10:33
but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Galatians 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Phil 3:11-12
and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

1 Cor 9:27
I treat my body hard and make it my slave so that I myself will not be disqualified after I have preached to others.

If you were to believe that all these warnings are temporary in nature and not eternal, it would make much of Paul's ministry seem non-sensical since he wouldn't have to have toiled so hard to make sure that believers were maintaining their faith correctly. If the 2nd, 3rd and 4th soil were saved, and the goal is to save as many souls for eternity as possible, Paul should have changed his strategy to go on a world tour to get everyone to say the sinner's prayer once in their life instead of re-visiting churches and making sure they were all on the narrow path that leads to life and worrying himself to death.

Galatians 5:7
"You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?"

Galatians 4:11
"I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain."

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I like the analogy of the kingdom seed and believe Jesus gave us the parable of the sower to demonstrate the relationship of his free gift of grace and what is required on our behalf for salvation.

There are two kinds of people in the world and history: believers and unbelievers. This distinction is judged at the Great White Throne. Unbelievers will be lost forever, but believers are saved and can never lose their salvation. Yet believers live in all kinds of conditions: these conditions will be judged at the Judgement Seat of Christ. Most of the contents of the Bible is written to believers, not unbelievers: it mostly addresses the conditions of believers, admonishing them to be faithful and become ready to pass the JSoC, and it also speaks to unbelievers to be saved.

The parable of the sower displays this dyanmic of unbelievers and then the believers with their different conditions. The key to understand is: life. The seed beside the way never germinates, there is no life, they are not saved, e.g. Pontius Pilate. All the other three cases do germinate: they are saved, they have life. "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." 1 Jn. 5.12. But those last three cases address different conditions of believers: 1.) some believers eventually leave the faith, e.g. Demas (still saved, though). 2.) some believers are hindered by all kinds of possible things, they are not healthy, e.g. Ananias and Zaphira, the young widows that turned after Satan. 3.) some believers are healthy and grow and bear much fruit in their life, e.g. Paul.

At the JSoC, the Lord will render to each believer according to their works done after being saved. E.g., those believers that commit fornication or habitually get drunk, or do not forgive others, etc. and never confess and repent of their sins will render an account at the JSoC. Many will be disqualified from ruling and reigning with Christ in the Kingdom: they will be disciplined to learn the lessons they did not learn during their life. Death will not solve their problems.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Many will be disqualified from ruling and reigning with Christ in the Kingdom: they will be disciplined to learn the lessons they did not learn during their life. Death will not solve their problems.

The revelation of the millennial kingdom is not found anywhere until the Book of Revelation which is commonly dated to 95AD. When the "kingdom of God" is referenced in the New Testament, the writers outside of John likely had no concept of the millennial reign of Christ and often refer to the kingdom of God in an eternal context which Jesus describes as "nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is in your midst." (Luke 17:21)

People who hold this view that anyone who professes belief is saved yet needs to work to earn the millennial kingdom or face dispensational “weeping and gnashing of teeth”, also liken the millennial reign as some holy grail that is the ultimate goal of every Christian yet it seems that the millennial kingdom is a type or shadow of the new heavens and new earth. During the millennial kingdom, people still die (Isaiah 65:20) so there's likely some amount of sin though limited, and there's even a great rebellion at the end (Rev 20:7-8). It is also temporal, so if you just view reigning in the millennial kingdom as a reward, while it's likely very nice to have, is not even eternal. The millennial kingdom will eventually pass away along with the old heavens and earth, 1 John 2:17 even says "And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever." Also think about what happens to those who does not do the will of God, it seems like they will not abide forever.

Contrast this to how Peter describes the kingdom in 2 Peter 1:10-11: "Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

Notice Peter does not refer to it as a "millennial kingdom" but the eternal kingdom of God. If all it took was the sinner's prayer to enter the eternal kingdom of our Lord, why would Peter say we still had to "make every effort to confirm your calling and election"? Such a command would seem non-sensical. So Paul is likely referring to the same eternal kingdom in warnings like Galatians 5:19-21: "Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

Also how would the parables of the tares and wheat make any sense? In that parable the tares are clearly unsaved since they are the seed of Satan yet Jesus implies that sometimes it's so hard to tell them apart that it's better to let God sort it out (Matthew 13:24–30 ). If anyone that says the sinners prayer is a wheat, then who are the tares? A view that supports the idea that there are true and false Christians and its sometimes hard to tell them apart would be more consistent with this parable.

Jesus also says broad is the way that leads to destruction and narrow is the way that leads to life and few find it. If professing belief in Jesus at one time in life is all it took, then the road would seem broad. Theoretically you could have someone make a profession of faith once in their life and become a Satan worshipper and go on a murderous rampage and that person would still be saved, yet your friendly neighborhood atheist who has never committed any serious crimes except for spending all his waking hours playing fortnite would suffer a far worse fate for eternity.

Jesus also told the thief on the cross who turned from his sin and towards Jesus in faith at the last hour "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise". If the thief still had the chance to go through a 1,000 year dispensational "weeping and gnashing of teeth" wouldn't that make Jesus' promise of assurance sound sick and twisted? Also how does it speak to the character of God if he uses this kind of punishment akin to locking kids up in a dark bathroom for 1000 years to train his followers. Wouldn't it be more likely to cause trauma and bitterness rather than the fruits of the Holy Spirit such as love, joy and peace?

In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus calls those who call him "Lord, Lord" to depart from him saying "I never knew you". It sounds like a complete disowning like he didn't even want to be associated with them, calling them "workers of lawlessness". It sounds pretty final and this is confirmed by Jesus when he said "eternal life is knowing God and Christ Jesus" (John 17:3). So, if Jesus says "I never knew you", it doesn't seem like one has attained eternal life nor does it seem like the person was ever born again. This theme is also repeated elsewhere in the NT in verses like:

1 John 3:6
"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."

1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

So someone who said the sinners prayer but continues in willful sin (lawlessness) cannot be saved and may not ever have been born again. And one of the greatest sins is violating the first and second commandment to "have no other gods before me" and not to worship idols. Yet a common reason people leave Christianity after making a profession of faith is to worship idols of money or lust which are sins. This is confirmed when John implies that someone who loves the world is likely not born again in 1 John 2:15 and when James says friendship with the world is enmity with God (James 4:4).

If this view was correct, entire portions of the NT would seem non-sensical such as the warning passages here https://www.verserain.com/html/warning_verses.html and it would be very difficult to read the bible and take it literally without commentary.

None of the church fathers like Iraenaus, Polycarp or Justin Martyr have written about a view similar to this one and neither is it found in the Didache, an apostolic instruction manual of the early church which some date to 50 AD. This view along with the other esoteric teachings in Nee and Lee's ministry is relatively new in church history and so it should be regarded with suspicion per 2 Timothy 3:4

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

So what do I think is the more biblical view on salvation? Salvation from the penalty of our sin, including any idea of dispensational punishment is by grace through faith alone (Eph 2:8-9). All that is needed is to "repent and believe" (Mark 1:15). Repent means to turn one's heart away from sin and towards faith in Christ just like the thief on the cross. When the heart is turned to the Lord the veil is taken away (2 Cor 3:16). "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise." (Psalms 51:17). In this process, when we humble ourselves and make our heart "broken and contrite", it becomes the good earth and we make room for the Holy Spirit to live in us with strong roots and we become truly born again. From here this promise can be fulfilled:

"for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith." (1 John 5:4)

[ThankfulForever777]

Originally Posted by bearbear

If this view was correct, entire portions of the NT would seem non-sensical such as the warning passages here https://www.verserain.com/html/warning_verses.html and it would be very difficult to read the bible and take it literally without commentary.

After leaving the LC, and delving into the Bible, I have come to notice a significant number of warnings issued by Jesus and the apostles aimed at believers. At this juncture, I no longer subscribe to the doctrine of eternal security of salvation, commonly known as "once saved, always saved."
Upon reading the Parable of the Sower, I observed that individuals represented by the rocky soil initially receive the seed with joy, signifying faith, yet their faith quickly withers under the weight of persecution and tribulation, ultimately leading to a loss of their salvation. Similarly, those depicted by the thorny soil show initial growth of word but are ultimately suffocated by worldly worries and the deceitfulness of wealth, resulting in a forfeiture of salvation.
There exists no hint in this parable that receiving initially the word of God guarantees eternal security of salvation. Instead, Jesus cautions us to possess hearts that not only receive his word but also understands and bear fruit.
Moreover, this parable illustrates that our salvation requires ongoing, lifelong faith, emphasizing that initial faith alone is insufficient.

Matthew 13:3-9 and 18-23 (NIV):
3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: 'A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.

18 Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by bearbear

The revelation of the millennial kingdom is not found anywhere until the Book of Revelation which is commonly dated to 95AD.

Oh...so then it must not be that important or relevant, or true? So neither the revelation of the New Jerusalem, nor the revelation of the Son of Man walking among the lampstands, nor the great whore, Babylon the Great. Actually, the whole book of Revelation.

The teaching about entering or missing the Kingdom in the coming age is taught everywhere in both Old and New Testaments.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Raptor

The pattern in both the Old and New Testaments clearly describes that salvation is a gift by grace through faith, yet ruling and reigning with Christ in the Millennial Kingdom will be a reward earned by works.

For example, to be an elder or deacon in 1 Timothy 3, there are a series of qualifications. If there are requirements other than being a believer to be a leader in a church, which is temporary and very localized, surely there are requirements to be a co-king with Christ in the Millennial Kingdom.

This is very succinctly put and easy to grasp! So much so that I think I will post this idea in another forum I'm on - thanks!

[aron]

My formative views were affected by being in the LC.. my initial (LC) view was that all were saved, came thru the water & cloud & fire but many (most) perished in the wilderness. (cf 1 Cor 10; Heb 3) They were saved (grace) from Egypt but not saved (faithful in good works) into the Good Land. That's the LC view that I remember. Kinda-sorta saved. Redeemed but not overcoming, not reigning in life.

But then I looked at Moses. Fell in the Wilderness, yet with Christ on the Mountain in Transfiguration. I guess dying outside the Good Land was not so bad if you were on Mount Pisgah (I guess). So over time, after leaving the LC, it evolved. Today, depending on what day it is, or what hour of the day, you will get my thoughts at the moment.

Here's my recent ruminations. In anything, in our Christian universe, as delineated by Scripture text, the reality is in Christ Jesus in his relations with the Father. This is our faith, not in ourselves but in him. So I look at Scripture: I come to do Thy will, O God... Christ is 'doing' but not 'doing', really, because God is doing through Christ. That was Jesus' interpretation of Scripture, as seen in the Gospels. When Christ speaks, it is not Christ but the Father speaking thru Christ.

My point is that to Christ speaking in the Gospel accounts, it is not Christ but the Father. To Christ, there is no "I" to do any work. Christ says, "You (Father) have done this". Christ is merely the obedient vessel of the Father's work.

In some sense, his consciousness has sunk into God, where he can see nothing speak nothing do nothing but the Father's will. Now, we as believers also (by faith) see Christ in the Father. We see the eternal will of God carried out through Jesus Christ. Our will, and our consciousness, begin (fitfully and slowly, I know) to merge with his.

When Christ died, his last gurgled words were "It is finished". If you look at the end of Psalm 22, it says, He [the Father] has done it. The Father's will be done on Earth as in Heaven. There is nothing else, there is no other work. Jesus went around "doing good works" according to his companion Peter (see the gospel message in Acts 10, esp v 38), but all those good works were the Father working out through Jesus. "When you see me, you see the Father". There is only one work, that of the Father, through Jesus Christ.

[bearbear]

Protestants generally agree that Salvation is by faith alone but Christians disagree over what constitutes faith which is important because that is the means by which we are saved.

One view is that the Greek word translated to faith (pistis) has a wide variety of meaning in the NT and is sometimes translated as "faithfulness" depending on the context. Matthew Bates in "Salvation by Allegiance" alone contends that "pistis" should be understood as "allegiance" which encompasses mental agreement, fidelity, loyalty, etc. He cites as an example, a Jewish rebel who wrote a letter urging people to "repent and believe [pistis] in him" as means to join his cause, using the same language as the New Testament Greek during the same time period. [https://thelogosofagape.wordpress.co...ek-word-study/]

Another view is that faith is both mental agreement and trust and that obedience is a fruit of faith. This view is held by theologians like Wayne Grudem (see [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujtk2ZGzHkw]). Notice in John 3:36 that obedience and belief are almost used interchangeably perhaps because they are so closely interconnected.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Acts 5:32
And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

Another view closer to LCs is that faith is just mental agreement alone. I agree mental agreement to the correct divine facts is important. For example if I mentally agree that Jesus was a created being, the archangel Michael and that he was a spirit being who never died but only ascended to heaven, that kind of Jesus will not save me.

Two examples in the OT provide an interesting case study: David and Balaam. Both mentally agreed that Yahweh was God but only David directed his allegiance/love/obedience towards God whereas Balaam was really loyal to himself and money. David murdered, stole, lied and committed adultery yet he was ultimately saved. Balaam may have not committed such sins and was even used by God to prophesy and speak truth but he was disobedient in his heart and he was ultimately damned according to 2 Peter 2.

I think there is some wisdom to focusing on faith even if it is just to increase one's level of mental agreement. I found the more I research about the veracity and trustworthiness of the bible which helps me to be fully convinced of the gospel, the more I am able to become obedient with little effort. I find that the more I believe, the more God puts desires in my heart to do his will and to love the things he loves and hate the things he hates. In the past I focused on good works or overcoming addiction by my own effort without focusing on developing faith and it often failed. Perhaps the Holy Spirit is able to work through us according to the measure of our faith.

1 John 5:4 ESV
For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

[Sunshine]

Originally Posted by Raptor

The pattern in both the Old and New Testaments clearly describes that salvation is a gift by grace through faith, yet ruling and reigining with Christ in the Millenial Kingdom will be a reward earned by works.

For example, to be an elder or deacon in 1 Timothy 3, there are a series of qualififications. If there are requirements other than being a believer to be a leader in a church, which is temporary and very localized, surely there are requirements to be a co-king with Christ in the Millenial Kingdom.

I agree. I think most Christians in general are quite sensitive about teachings/interpretation that contains gaining God's favor, reward, or prize by works. They automatically associate that teaching to be salvation by works and not by grace. I have come across this a lot.

I had to avoid using phrases that causes these "triggers" among the general Christian communities because of its incomplete and misguided associate meaning to salvation.

I find it more helpful to my fellow Christians using phrases like the kingdom reward, or reigning with Christ in the millennial Kingdom is the result of our working out (the living out) of our faith in Christ. This is in line with Philippians 2:12 (working out your salvation with fear and trembling) as well as your quoted verses.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Sunshine

I had to avoid using phrases that causes these "triggers" among the general Christian communities because of its incomplete and misguided associate meaning to salvation.

I find it more helpful to my fellow Christians using phrases like the kingdom reward, or reigning with Christ in the millennial Kingdom is the result of our working out (the living out) of our faith in Christ. This is in line with Philippians 2:12 (working out your salvation with fear and trembling) as well as your quoted verses.

Hi Sunshine thanks for sharing. I'm open to the idea that the millennial reign will be given as a reward selectively to some saints and not others. Though I vehemently disagree that the other saints will suffer in an outer darkness type purgatory (which is really from a works based salvation view), rather perhaps they will be assigned other tasks to carry out in heaven. Yet if the reward was limited to 1000 years, wouldn't it be finite and perishing? If the reward is truly valuable and something to seek after it must also have an element of carrying over into eternity.

1 Cor 9:25
Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.

I disagree about Philippians 2:12 referring to only rewards, it is clearly about salvation based on the wording. As you implied, we don't work for our salvation but we work "out" what God put in us through the Holy Spirit. So works is just evidence that we are truly saved. If it was only about rewards, Paul would have used the word "rewards". There isn't a hidden meaning behind Paul's letters unless otherwise indicated. Read a few verses after and we see Paul worrying about "laboring in vain"

Phil 2:16
holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.

If the souls that Paul were laboring after were already saved and his ministry to them thereafter only meant the difference between the loss of rewards why would he express such a fear? And if Phil 2:12 was only about rewards, why did Paul add the words "fear and trembling"?

Jesus told us to make disciples because disciples follow Jesus and Jesus said he gives his sheep who follow him eternal life (John 10:27-28). If praying the sinner's prayer once and proceeding to live selfishly in sin for the remainder of one's life was enough for salvation then Jesus should have instructed his followers to go on world tours to get everyone to say the sinner's prayer. Instead, Paul modeled after Jesus' instructions in the great commission to make disciples by visiting churches repeatedly and worrying about the progress of the faith of the saints.

Galatians 4:19
my little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you!

But what I'm advocating for isn't works salvation -- instead it's "born again" salvation. Being born again requires making room for the free gift of salvation through circumcision of the heart (Rom 2:28-29). The thief on the cross did not say the sinner's prayer but Jesus said he was saved because he circumcised his heart at the last hour. The Pharisees tried all their life to serve God but it was in vain because they did not circumcise their hearts and neither did the false disciples in Matt 7:21-23 who performed mighty miracles but of whom Jesus said "I never knew you, depart from me you workers of lawlessness".

Psalms 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

[Sunshine]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Hi Sunshine thanks for sharing. I'm open to the idea that the millennial reign will be given as a reward selectively to some saints and not others. Though I vehemently disagree that the other saints will suffer in an outer darkness type purgatory (which is really from a works based salvation view), rather perhaps they will be assigned other tasks to carry out in heaven. Yet if the reward was limited to 1000 years, wouldn't it be finite and perishing? If the reward is truly valuable and something to seek after it must also have an element of carrying over into eternity.

1 Cor 9:25
Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.

I disagree about Philippians 2:12 referring to only rewards, it is clearly about salvation based on the wording. As you implied, we don't work for our salvation but we work "out" what God put in us through the Holy Spirit. So works is just evidence that we are truly saved. If it was only about rewards, Paul would have used the word "rewards". There isn't a hidden meaning behind Paul's letters unless otherwise indicated. Read a few verses after and we see Paul worrying about "laboring in vain"

Phil 2:16
holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.

If the souls that Paul were laboring after were already saved and his ministry to them thereafter only meant the difference between the loss of rewards why would he express such a fear? And if Phil 2:12 was only about rewards, why did Paul add the words "fear and trembling"?

Jesus told us to make disciples because disciples follow Jesus and Jesus said he gives his sheep who follow him eternal life (John 10:27-28). If praying the sinner's prayer once and proceeding to live selfishly in sin for the remainder of one's life was enough for salvation then Jesus should have instructed his followers to go on world tours to get everyone to say the sinner's prayer. Instead, Paul modeled after Jesus' instructions in the great commission to make disciples by visiting churches repeatedly and worrying about the progress of the faith of the saints.

Galatians 4:19
my little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you!

But what I'm advocating for isn't works salvation -- instead it's "born again" salvation. Being born again requires making room for the free gift of salvation through circumcision of the heart (Rom 2:28-29). The thief on the cross did not say the sinner's prayer but Jesus said he was saved because he circumcised his heart at the last hour. The Pharisees tried all their life to serve God but it was in vain because they did not circumcise their hearts and neither did the false disciples in Matt 7:21-23 who performed mighty miracles but of whom Jesus said "I never knew you, depart from me you workers of lawlessness".

Psalms 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

Hello bearbear,

I do agree with you that in Phil 2, Paul does not mention reward. What I was trying to say, is that working out our salvation will lead to reward if we grow unto maturity. There are a quite a few bible verses to support that but I don't quite have them structured on hand yet. Its something I will be putting together progressively as I revisit them.

The 1000 year kingdom, know as the millennial kingdom refers to the kingdom age, the age that to come after the age of grace (we are currently in the age of grace). The 1000 year kingdom age as I understand it, is the same duration as the wedding feast.

The kingdom of God is eternal, but its manifestation is progressive until fullness and to eternity. The time after the 1000 year kingdom age will be the New Jerusalem in the New heaven and new earth. Believers that did not qualify to enter the joy of the master (wedding feast) are still saved, they will be included in the New Heaven and New earth. These are big topics that takes years of study to map and understand. I am still in that process.

Anyway, I don't think this forum is meant for this kind of discussion.

[Raptor]

"And to the one who overcomes and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery —just as I have received authority from My Father. And I will give him the morning star." Revelation 2:26-28.

1. written to believers
2. conditional statement
3. IF overcome = authority to rule
4. therefore if NOT overvome = no authority to rule

Don´t add to the Bible or be influeneced by erroneious teachings. Eternal salvation is a free gift and cannot be lost; ruling in the Kingdom is earned and conditional.

1 John 5:1-5
1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

Romans 8:31-39
31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors (overcomers) through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

****Moderator Note.
In the future, please consider actually posting some sort of commentary or reaction to what is being posted. Just posting verses without commenting does not add to the discussion.
****
-

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Raptor

"And to the one who overcomes and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery —just as I have received authority from My Father. And I will give him the morning star." Revelation 2:26-28.

1. written to believers
2. conditional statement
3. IF overcome = authority to rule
4. therefore if NOT overvome = no authority to rule

You are quoting the book of Revelation written by John. The same author John also wrote 1 John 5:4 that the "Unregistered Guy" also shared:

1 John 5:4
For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

If everyone born of God overcomes, then every true believer is an overcomer. John also ties overcoming with eternal salvation and the book of life in

Revelation 3:5 (KJV)
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

This is consistent with Jesus' teachings in the parable of talents and the four soils where he says:

Matthew 13:12
For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away

Matthew 25:29
For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

So the one who does not overcome was never born again and never attained salvation. Just like in the parable of the unforgiving servant, what he thought he had (salvation) was taken away from him.

Jesus tells the false believers in Matt 7:21-23 "I never knew you". There was never a work that began in them that could be finished (Phil 1:6).

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Eternal salvation is a free gift and cannot be lost; ruling in the Kingdom is earned and conditional.

Eternal salvation is a gift given by grace through faith (Eph 2:8). But some of the definition of faith is lost in translation to English.

Paul quotes Habbukuk 2:4 three times in the NT: "The righteous shall live by faith" in Romans 1:17, Galatians 3:11 and Hebrews 10:38 (assuming he is the author of Hebrews which he may not be).

If you do a Hebrew word study on Habbukuk 2:4, the Hebrew word for faith "emunah" used in the verse actually means much more than "faith" in English. According to Strong's (https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/...brew/0530.html) emunah is "firmness, fidelity, steadfastness, steadiness".

Fidelity means "faithfulness" just like in the context of a marriage relationship. So faith is like faithfulness within a marriage. And a Greek word study on "pistis" would be consistent with this view:
https://thelogosofagape.wordpress.co...ek-word-study/

When evangelicals say that Christianity is more than a religion but a "personal relationship" with Jesus they are perhaps more correct than they know. Jesus said in John 17:13 "And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

Someone who is practicing sin cannot be in relationship with Jesus, because Jesus would be instructing them to turn away from sin. This is also what the Apostle John wrote in:

1 John 3:6
No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

Someone who does not know Jesus personally does not have eternal life. Someone who knows Jesus personally will not continue in sin.

1 John 3:7-8
Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil...

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Sunshine

These are big topics that takes years of study to map and understand. I am still in that process.

That's my problem with this view is that it takes years of study of commentary outside of scripture. This view did not become popular in church history until John Darby and it's different enough to be another gospel. The rest of the church prior to this time including the early church fathers did not hold to a view that saying the sinner's prayer without repentance was enough for salvation. Faith and repentance were viewed as being intertwined. Turning away from sin and towards God in faith was viewed as being simultaneous as described in Acts 3 and elsewhere.

Acts 3:19 (NLT)
Now repent of your sins and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped away.

Acts 3:26 (NLT)
When God raised up his servant, Jesus, he sent him first to you people of Israel, to bless you by turning each of you back from your sinful ways.

Luke 13:2-3 (NLT)
Do you think those Galileans were worse sinners than all the other people from Galilee?” Jesus asked. “Is that why they suffered? Not at all! And you will perish, too, unless you repent of your sins and turn to God.

The early Christians who were being persecuted by the Romans and eaten alive by wild animals in the coloseum believed that if they recanted their faith they would not make it to heaven and were given a lot of opportunity to do so. If they believed like John Darby taught many would have likely apostasized to save their own life under extreme pressure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzqDV91AFPo

The faith that the apostles passed down to us is enough, we don't have to change or add to it

Jude 1:4
Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Sunshine

The 1000 year kingdom, know as the millennial kingdom refers to the kingdom age, the age that to come after the age of grace (we are currently in the age of grace). The 1000 year kingdom age as I understand it, is the same duration as the wedding feast.

Like the early church fathers, I also hold to pre-millenialism though more towards the "historic" / progressive dispensational flavor and not an extreme dispensational version.
https://www.biola.edu/blogs/good-boo...pensationalism

We are under the age of grace, but grace is not a license to sin (Romans 6). There are actually higher expectations under grace. Jesus said if more is given, more will also be required (Luke 12:48). Jesus said if we don't forgive others, neither will the Father forgive us (Matt 6:14-15). And in the sermon on the mount Jesus said, if we look at a woman with lust we have committed adultery and if we call our brother a bad name we are liable to hell (Matthew 5).

This shows our need for Christ's forgiveness but also our need for the Holy Spirit to empower us to overcome. It's not our own flesh or effort that saves us but the Holy Spirit who works in us through God's grace (Romans 8:12-13).

The writer of Hebrews also shares this view and says that those who continue in sin will get a worse punishment under the New Covenant than the old one.

Just as New Testament grace should not be used as a license for deliberate sin (Romans 6) but was intended for unintentional sins to empower Jesus' followers trying to walk the narrow way that leads to life, the animal sacrifices in the Old Testament were also intended to atone for the people's unintentional sins according to

Hebrews 9:7:
"but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people."

This is in reference to passages such as Numbers 15:30-31 (NLT)
“But those who brazenly violate the Lord’s will, whether native-born Israelites or foreigners, have blasphemed the Lord, and they must be cut off from the community. Since they have treated the Lord’s word with contempt and deliberately disobeyed his command, they must be completely cut off and suffer the punishment for their guilt.”

Willful sin such as murder and adultery resulted in stoning in the law of Moses and the writer of Hebrews is saying how worse a punishment there will be for false Christians who use grace as a license to sin since they are profaning not the blood of animals, but the blood of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 10:26-31
"For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."