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03-14-2023, 08:41 AM
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"Processed Triune God"
I know there have been numerous discussions over the past several decades concerning WL's interpretation of the Trinity versus orthodox views. But no matter how the local church spins it, WL's teaching of the Godhead seems to teeter dangerously close to "modalism". Modalism, of course, is the unbiblical view that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit are essentially 3 stages (or modes) of God. Whereas, the orthodox/biblical view is that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 3 distinct Persons, who "coexist" simultaneously and are one with each other. So, the one God exists in three Persons.
So....for those in the LC that continue to use the phrase "Processed Triune God"....how is that not modalism? Please help me understand this concept of "Processed Triune God" in layman's terms (please do not regurgitate WL writings). |
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03-14-2023, 08:56 AM
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#2 |
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Location: Greater Ohio
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Re: "Processed Triune God"
Do you really think anyone here would actually take the risk of explaining WL teachings? lol
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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03-14-2023, 10:36 AM
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Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
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Re: "Processed Triune God"
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But here goes....and this is going to sound familiar.... Quote:
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If you want to discuss Lee's modalism in a more detailed way, please let me know and I'd be glad to oblige. The only thing I would ask is that those who participate do so respectfully and in good faith.  -
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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03-14-2023, 01:16 PM
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Re: "Processed Triune God"
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#1 - To those that were or are still in the LC, what does the concept "Processed Triune God" mean to you in your own words? I am very curious to hear anyone's personal take on this "Processed Triune God" term. #2 - Although I completely disagree with modalism, how dangerous is it to hold a modalistic view of God? Could this be even of salvific consequence? And if so, why or why not? Obviously, none of us mere humans can come even close to understanding the triune nature of God. But, I'm wondering what exactly makes modalism dangerous? Again, I personally do NOT agree with modalism, but I'd like to be further enlightened about the inherent dangers of this belief. Many passages of Scripture clearly show that God coexists eternally (without beginning & without end) in 3 Persons. So, I'm not asking for biblical proof to refute the concept of modalism. I'm already clear on that. What I'd like to further understand is why holding onto a modalistic view....and as a result....why the teaching of the "Processed Triune God" is so dangerous, esp from a salvific perspective. Here's just one of many questions I would ask someone who believes in modalism -- "how would you explain where God was in the 3 days after Jesus' crucifixion and before His resurrection?" |
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03-14-2023, 09:11 PM
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Location: Greater Ohio
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Re: "Processed Triune God"
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I was there 30 years, and have always felt that WL’s theology of God was perhaps the least of his problems. The basis of his teachings on this subject were to distinguish his ministry from the rest of the body of Christ. He would create false standards which were used to condemn all others. The root issue was pride.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! Last edited by Ohio; 03-15-2023 at 05:01 AM. |
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03-14-2023, 12:57 PM
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Re: "Processed Triune God"
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Before you eat a water melon, you need to cut it open, then you need to cut it into bite size pieces. Well God is the water melon, and the process of incarceration, death, and resurrection are the cutting of the watermelon. You see, the Recovery thinks that the Tree Of life contained God & humans failed in eating it. So through the “process” above, God once again made himself available to be “eaten”. If God didn’t get processed, humans would never be able to partake of God. |
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03-14-2023, 01:22 PM
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Re: "Processed Triune God"
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Thank you, Zezima, for your response. But, wait, what you stated is the principal of "substitutionary atonement", or "justification", "reconciliation", no? How would you explain how salvation came to those prior to Jesus' earthly ministry and death? |
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03-14-2023, 03:04 PM
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Posts: 361
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Re: "Processed Triune God"
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What I stated was how the Lords Recovery or what the Lords recovery means when they say “processed”. They think that unless God went through those steps, then man could never “receive” the dispensing. See, if the watermelon is never sliced up, then it can’t be served at a picnic. I’m not sure how the recovery explains salvation BEFORE Jesus. However the Bible is very clear, that it was by faith. We today place our faith in a past event, they (those before Jesus) placed their faith in a future event. |
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03-14-2023, 03:26 PM
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Re: "Processed Triune God"
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I wonder how those still in the LC think about this. Why is it the teaching of the processed Triune God such a great thing and a tremendous insight in their eyes? And what does it mean to them exactly? Or maybe they don't really think about it, and just continue to mindlessly parrot WL's teachings. What a tragedy that would be. |
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03-14-2023, 09:15 PM
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Location: Greater Ohio
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Re: "Processed Triune God"
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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03-20-2023, 10:51 PM
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Re: "Processed Triune God"
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03-16-2023, 05:37 AM
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#12 |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2023
Location: In God's hands.
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Re: "Processed Triune God"
Berean Standard Bible
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness, to rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it.” https://biblehub.com/genesis/1-26.htm From what I believe to understand, God is an entity. There is God the Father who is the Creator, God in the Son who is Yeshua Hamaschiach the Messiah, and God in the Holy Spirit and God in His Word. These 4 are all part of God's entity so when we refer to God, we should be specific as in to which part of Him we are referring to. The Word of God is alive and living. So, we know even the Word of God is part of God Himself. Why is God referred to as a He and not a she? I believe when referring to the whole entity of GOD, GOD is referred to as a He because GOD is the HEAD, not humans. God's church is referred to as the counterpart, who are the people of GOD who needs GOD as their HEAD so it really reflects the husband and wife aspect of that. I believe the scripture says that God is a spirit so there is no gender like humans. Even after we die and resurrect with God, our bodies transform and we are no longer in this flesh divided by gender. So when GOD says LET US make man in OUR image, isn't it clear that they are in a meeting and conversing with one another? Do we have then, 4 GODS? The Father, the Son, the Spirit and the Word? This is something people ask me too. Well, we may have 4 " persons " but they all have the same life inside. The life of God that rules over well, as far as I believe, Earth. God's not created, so where does God come from? This, I honestly, don't know. If anyone has answers, please do share. |
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03-16-2023, 08:17 AM
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Admin/Moderator
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Re: "Processed Triune God"
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 Our experience is in deconstructing the Local Church of Witness Lee. Of course, we have opinions and interpretations of other theology stuff, too. Some of it might even be scripturally founded and "correct". But the best answer to your questions above the same as you ... "I don't know."  My suggestion is that you "ask Him," then ask Him again, and again. He will answer you or not. He might just get tired of you buggin' Him and answer your question/s. He might tell you "ask another question." IMHO part of having faith is to ask Him, then wait until He answers. "Answers" from anyone but Him are based in speculation and personal interpretation. Any answer you can get from all of us mortals, should be prefaced with "I think". John 4:23-25 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeks such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 25 The woman said unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. We mortals don't have all the answers...yet. What we do have is "faith". I'll ask you a question: Which is better...an answer from ME or an answer from HIM? (Choose "Him"). That even sounds better. If we are willing to ask Him, then wait on Him for an answer, we grow in faith. He answers us (or not) in his own time. Which is better: to know Him or know things about Him. So this is my answer in two words: Ask Him. Your post is really full of deep stuff. He might ask you "Why do you want to know?" Then you have to think about it and answer HIS question/s. So talk to Him. Every day. Talk to Him. Tell Him what you think. The more you get to know Him, you'll get answers from Him. In this life, I think the first thing we need to learn from Him is "patience".  Welcome to the forum! Nell |
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03-22-2023, 12:07 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2023
Location: In God's hands.
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Re: "Processed Triune God"
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Well, at this point in time, definitely knowing God is more important because this is the whole point isn't it? We can't be feeding off what we can seemingly know about God from someone else and not be knowing who God really is in our personal lives. I count on Him, talking to Him, and His Word but I'm not alone in that because His Son is interceding for me, and His Spirit convicts others to pray for me, especially when I'm being far from God. He also sends His angels to work. I believe this is how His Kingdom works, to an extent. That's where this LR movement, which may have (unsure) started out with good intentions, derailed into its own self-defeating purpose. To give them the benefit of the doubt, they wanted to make it so clear and easy for people to get the Lord so they've essentially kind of put God under a microscope and broke it down for everyone to process that knowledge that they've gotten. The thing is that, they say, it's their way or the highway, essentially. Unfortunately, it doesn't really work that way. By doing so, they've essentially cut your personal relationship with God and everything you want to know about God has to be from them. Is this fair? Is this what God wanted us to be like? This is really painful and the answer is no. You cannot separate God from His own people, and put a man in a kind of totalitarian charge over that people. Sure, you can teach, you can shepherd, you can share, but who is the guide? It is the HOLY SPIRIT. You have to let God's own holy spirit guide people into God's own truth. Check verse here. https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%2016%3A13 First of all, I do not think their doctrines/interpretations/studies are accurate as with their beliefs of " processed Triune God " and " god men " and " shouting the name of God loudly ". Processed Triune God - an item of the LR. If they mean that The Father processed Himself to come to earth incarnated (becoming in human flesh form) to be the Son (Jesus), and then processed the Son to die and resurrect to become the Spirit, or rather, what they term as the " life - giving " spirit, so that the spirit can get into our spirit to make it easier for humans to contact God, then I do not think it is accurate to what the bible is saying. Jesus came to fulfill His Messianic role and to die for our sins as God's own blameless sacrifice for all humans' forgiveness as in John 3:16. SIMPLE AS THAT. Problem is, they call this birth - death - resurrection - as part of a process! It gets complicated when you start naming things in the bible according to your own terminologies. That's where you get all these ideologies. You think they simplify the meaning of the bible but in fact, it just makes everything complicated and worse, changes the meaning. OKAY, let's say that was indeed " a process " that GOD had to put HIMSELF through in order to save mankind, again, you have to be specific as in which part of GOD and which part of HIMSELF you are referring to. Otherwise, it becomes like modalism, right? Obviously, The Father never left His throne in Heaven, and the Son could not be praying to nobody in heaven or to Himself while He was on earth. The Son could also not be risen by Himself for it is the Spirit of God that resurrected Him back to life. So, now, we have God the Father on His throne in heaven, we have God the Son (Yeshua Hamaschiach - Jesus Christ the Messiah) seated on and interceding for us on the Father's right hand in heaven, and we have God the Spirit being sent to the earth to convict the people. Jesus is seated on, but that doesn't mean He is just sitting there forever. I believe Jesus is free to stand and walk wherever He wants to in heaven or hell (the spiritual realm). I do not think Jesus is free to come to earth whenever He wants to because the bible says Jesus will only come back to earth when the Father says it is time to do so. Therefore, any claims of meeting Jesus on earth now, or that Jesus has returned, are questionable. The bible describes the return of Jesus as an event that all inhabitants of the earth will see in the skies with the clouds. So obviously, it is a tremendous event. Interestingly, we also know that Jesus, while He was on earth, has the power to raise Lazarus from the dead. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...44&version=NIV So, how can the Son have the power of the holy spirit (as we know it is God's spirit that raises Jesus from the dead). Well, the bible also says that all power has been given unto Jesus. So, Jesus has the power but Jesus is NOT the holy spirit. Jesus is God as in the Son of God, and the holy spirit is God as in the Holy Spirit of God. https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2028%3A18 And what about God in His Word? Well, I think the Word of God is whatever God means (the message, the meaning, the intent) when He spoke. Is the Word of God (God's message) then Jesus Himself? Actually yes because it clearly says that the Word is alive, the Word has always been with God, the Word was sent in the flesh to earth (Jesus). Jesus also said before Abraham was, He is. The bible says all things were made through Jesus. And how did God the Father created the earth? He spoke. And He spoke the meaning of what He wanted. So, whatever the Father says and means, which is in His Word, is also what Jesus would have said and meant. So, Jesus is also the messenger of God's Word BUT Jesus is not only the messenger, JESUS IS THE MESSAGE OF GOD. It's like telling someone, hey I have given you my word, so it means it will not change, it is my promise to you, it is my covenant with you. So, when the bible says that only the Father knows when the time is ready for Jesus to return, He will obviously then say His Word (what He intends) to Jesus. Then again, Jesus is the Word as He carries out the Father's message. This I believe is true because Jesus said He doesn't do things out of His own will but He does the will of the Father. In conclusion, Jesus is NOT just the messenger of the Word of God, but God has said that Jesus IS actually the message of God (the Word of God) Himself, and that the Word of God was God now put in the Son. All the scriptures, which are also God's directed words as in God-breathed, are indeed God directed, men written, (except for the tablets given to Moses that He formed) talking about (or illustrating, or depicting, or referring, or concurring) the message of God, which IS the WORD OF GOD (as in the MESSAGE) is JESUS CHRIST. It's really a lot to take in but yeah, this is what I understand. In other words, God is like, talking about His Son to us, and then sending His Son to us to tell us, hey I'm what God has been trying to tell you all this time, and I'm also here to make GOD known and accessible to you. https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%2014%3A6 https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Romans%208%3A11 https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%201%3A14 https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/e...sians%201%3A16 https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%201%3A1 https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%205%3A30 https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%205%3A39 I could be wrong about equating Jesus as being the same thing as the Word of God. I'm also learning. But here it clearly speaks of someone as the Word of God, which I believe is Jesus. (but again, I am not 100% sure yet.) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...19&version=KJV Found this link to consider about it. https://enduringword.com/bible-comme...revelation-19/ God bless. Last edited by FaithHopeLove; 03-22-2023 at 01:39 AM. |
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03-22-2023, 05:29 AM
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Location: Greater Ohio
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Re: "Processed Triune God"
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__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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03-22-2023, 07:44 AM
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#16 |
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Admin/Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,100
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Re: "Processed Triune God"
Thanks FaithHopeLove for your thoughtul comments. I love your name!
...more of my thoughts on Lee's teachings. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Regarding the Local Church of Witness Lee, and his teachings, these verses put "things" in perspective for me on who the enemy IS and who the enemy IS NOT. The Watchman Nee and Witness Lee made a lot of mistakes, but their biggest "mistake" (or their biggest "on purpose") IMHO, was to fight the wrong battle. Their descendants, today's "blendeds", carry on fighting the wrong battle. They accuse, blame and control their brothers and sisters, including name-calling, treating them/us like WE are their enemy. Or, we are a threat to their little ministry kingdom. Further, it's insidious that they used the scriptures, that is, their interpretation of scriptures (i.e. the "Processed Triune God") to browbeat their brothers and sisters. All that said, Nee and Lee are not the enemy. They also were deceived by the serpent. Where is the proof? Where and when did this begin? Genesis 3:13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled (deceived) me, and I did eat. 14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. The woman confessed her sin, and God cursed the serpent, not the woman. So this is the battle. As prophecied, due to this enmity, the serpent was defeated by the seed of woman, Jesus Christ, on the cross. The serpent did bruise his heel, but, it was a trap! The serpent's sentence/execution has not been carried out yet. Hence the warning verses in Ephesians above. With all that in mind, I believe that the issue of the "Processed Triune God" should be classified as a "Non-Christian 'spiritual' Teaching" and discussed from that perspective. I think that's what we're doing here on this forum. Even so, the "Ministry" of Lee is not our enemy. The Local Church leadership is not our enemy, though sometimes it sure does seem that way. Eventually, I believed that surviving the Local Church depended on pleasing the brothers, rather than walking with God. I was deceived. It became, in fact, easier to follow the Lord than to "follow the Elders". So I found the door and walked through it, leaving the "Processed Triune God" and other such manufactured teachings behind. Nell |
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03-28-2023, 03:26 AM
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#17 | |
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Location: In God's hands.
Posts: 16
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Re: "Processed Triune God"
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Oh I see, thanks brother/sister Ohio. God bless |
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03-16-2023, 08:48 AM
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#18 |
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Posts: 26
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Re: "Processed Triune God"
Below is a snippet from the site (https://agodman.com/the-triune-god-w...irit-john-739/) that looks to be a good summary of what the LC believes:
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Heb. 13:8), and with Him there is no change (Mal. 3:6; Num. 23:19). However, in the Gospel of John 1:14, we see that the Word – who was with God and who was God – became flesh. In His essence, God cannot change and will not change – He is perfect, complete, and without any need to change. Economically though, when it comes to His economy and the accomplishment of His plan, God became a man through incarnation (John 1:14) and then He as the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit, the Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45b; John 7:39). The Triune God passed through a process to become the consummated Spirit, which the Apostle John calls, “the Spirit” (John 7:38-39) who was not yet before the Lord’s resurrection. The Spirit is the crystallization of the Triune God, the consummation of all that God has passed through in Jesus Christ." "The Spirit is not merely the third of the Divine Trinity – the Spirit is the entire Triune God who passed through the process of incarnation, human living, crucifixion, and resurrection to become the Spirit! The fact that God went through a process economically doesn’t mean that God somehow is incomplete or imperfect. God is eternally complete and perfect in His essence. But the Bible shows us clearly that, economically speaking, our God took some steps and passed through a long process when He became a man, and the consummation of this process is that He became the Spirit." Is this sound doctrine? Why or why not? |
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03-16-2023, 10:52 AM
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#19 |
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Posts: 1,523
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Re: "Processed Triune God"
bettercountry,
There is a lengthy and interesting thread on this forum titled "Lee's Trinity". The discussion included two current/active members of the local church, usernames Drake and Evangelical. It touched upon the processed stuff a little, but it also just shows the lengths to which their own beliefs are simply incoherent. It might be an interesting (or maybe frustrating) read..... http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=5765 Trapped |
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03-16-2023, 11:05 AM
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#20 | |
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Posts: 1,523
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Re: "Processed Triune God"
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But context shows that's not the case. The Bible speaks of both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Jesus Christ. It also speaks of Jesus becoming a life-giving Spirit, and the context is obvious that "Spirit" in that chapter means more along the lines of "spiritual body" since it's speaking about what kind of body the dead will be resurrected with, etc... Lee accused Christians of basically believing in three Gods, and so he compensated for it by pushing far in the opposite direction, identifying Father/Son/Spirit so extremely closely that he jumped into the modalist swimming pool all while claiming he wasn't wet. As your snippet shows, he identified them so closely that even though the Bible says God sent His Son, and that it was the Son who died on the cross and the Son who was resurrected, Lee (and those who follow him) essentially act as if what the Bible really means is the Father also died, the Father also resurrected, etc... claiming an essential oneness so strong that they speak as if whatever one went through, the other went through too, even in situations they would by all rights describe as "in His economy" rather than "in His essence". This is why we get statements like the ones found in the snippet like "The Triune God passed through a process...." Trapped |
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03-16-2023, 12:20 PM
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#21 | |
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Posts: 1,523
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Re: "Processed Triune God"
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You make such an interesting observation about the Word being God. I wonder why so many hold to a "God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit" view and yet don't add "God the Word" into the mix. Or why it's not "God the Father, God the Word, and God the Holy Spirit" when John 1 seems to show the Word is the term used prior to incarnation. Anyway, things to think about. I think even among Trinitarians, there isn't necessarily agreement on what the "Let US" in Genesis 1:26 is referring to. Since the Bible is clear that the Son was involved at creation, and says that the Son is the image of the invisible God, some believe the "Us" is simply God the Father speaking to His Son....God being the source of creation, and the Son being the agent through which everything was created. In other words, if the Son is the image of God, then explaining the verse as simply the Father saying to the Son "let us make man in our image" isn't dissonant with Scripture because we would be in the image of God and of the One who is Himself already the image of God. There isn't consensus on it, but this verse might not necessarily be a verse pointing to a three-in-one God (or a four-in-one God). It doesn't negate it, but given the rest of what Scripture says about creation, it may not be the "entity" verse it's often been thought of. I don't think I worded that very well, but.....there you go. Among Christian apologists, most will say that there must be what is called "an uncaused first cause". In other words, there must be something/someone that is the initial cause of all creation, but that something/someone must itself/himself be uncaused, ever-existing. Some people try to claim that the universe itself is the "uncaused first cause", that it is the universe that is eternal and just always existed, and that nothing caused it. Except if that was true, if the universe simply always existed, then all the stars would have burned out a long, long, long time ago. There has to be a hard beginning for the universe to operate the way it does. And so that (and many other things) point to the existence of something outside the universe that caused the universe....and whatever that thing is, that's what people mean by "God". If someone wants to say "well God must have a cause, or must be created", well, okay, then whatever caused God to exist.....THAT is the thing we actually mean by "God". The Bible says God alone is immortal. I can't wrap my head around it, but....He's the basis of all our reality. Keeps me up at night occasionally! Trapped |
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