Answered Prayer

[ZNPaaneah]

I have shared a number of testimonies on the Bereans website so I don’t want to bore anyone by repeating those. (I left the LC in 1997 after being in the LC for almost exactly 20 years.)

Instead, the Lord answered a prayer of mine today that I think might help many here. I know how confused I was when I left the LC. Were my experiences genuine or was I just deceived?

So the Lord asked me today, “how did you feel when you left the LC?” I felt terrible, like I had lost my one true love. “So why didn’t you fight?” I didn’t want to hurt anyone, I thought the church would be better off without me. “Now how do you feel when you learned of how the LC has been overrun with wolves? I felt sick. “You don’t want to gloat?” No, I feel sick, I should have done something. “That” He said, “is love. Your experience was genuine.”

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I know how confused I was when I left the LC. Were my experiences genuine or was I just deceived?

Welcome to the forum ZNPaaneah!

This kind of reminds me of that adage - "it's possible to be sincere, but sincerely wrong". Likewise, I think most of us had some genuine experiences of Christ, and yes even the Church, in the Local Church. Yet at the very same time we were being deceived. In my observation and experience this is the work of the enemy. If he can get us to a place where we are close to the truth, but keep us at arm’s length from the actual truth, or the whole truth, most of his work is done. Well meaning and religious people will do the rest of the work for him.

Again welcome to the forum and we look forward to your participation.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Welcome to the forum ZNPaaneah!

This kind of reminds me of that adage - "it's possible to be sincere, but sincerely wrong". Likewise, I think most of us had some genuine experiences of Christ, and yes even the Church, in the Local Church. Yet at the very same time we were being deceived. In my observation and experience this is the work of the enemy. If he can get us to a place where we are close to the truth, but keep us at arm’s length from the actual truth, or the whole truth, most of his work is done. Well meaning and religious people will do the rest of the work for him.

Again welcome to the forum and we look forward to your participation.

I am thankful to God for all of my remembrances of the saints in the LC.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I have shared a number of testimonies on the Bereans website so I don’t want to bore anyone by repeating those. (I left the LC in 1997 after being in the LC for almost exactly 20 years.)

Instead, the Lord answered a prayer of mine today that I think might help many here. I know how confused I was when I left the LC. Were my experiences genuine or was I just deceived?

So the Lord asked me today, “how did you feel when you left the LC?” I felt terrible, like I had lost my one true love. “So why didn’t you fight?” I didn’t want to hurt anyone, I thought the church would be better off without me. “Now how do you feel when you learned of how the LC has been overrun with wolves? I felt sick. “You don’t want to gloat?” No, I feel sick, I should have done something. “That” He said, “is love. Your experience was genuine.”

ZNPAH........
Our experiences in the LC were genuine as long as we sought the Lord in His Word and genuine fellowship with the saints. In the early days...the 70s...I truly believe the Presence, the Power, the Anointing, the Love, the Revelation of the Word of God was upon us. We had a heart after God's own heart as David did. We experienced and still experience the power of the Cleansing Blood because we repented, not only that we would receive eternal salvation but we repented for not always having a pure heart. We'd repent for not loving the LORD more, for not praying/reading the scriptures more. That was the early days. We loved telling people about Jesus because we knew what it was to be set free and we knew what it was to have the Joy of the LORD not only individually but we rejoiced daily with the saints. (while not always in perfect harmony, for sure.) Still, we were among saints who loved Jesus, who Loved studying the Word, privately and together. We were among the saints who as much as in us was spoke the Word of God encouraging one another, loved one another, loved the church life, learned to forgive. We certainly did not do it perfectly and not always with a pure heart but with a zealous heart. We wanted to be good brothers, good sisters. We wanted God to be pleased with us and we wanted the saints to be pleased with us. Sometimes we tried too hard.

Eventually the leaven grew...Pride, Control, Criticism of those who did not have the 'vision' we had. We began to put our trust more in a man to teach us than to put our trust in God the Holy Spirit to reveal and to TEACH US the Word of God.

The Blood of Jesus is as powerful and effectual today as it was back then. Behold HE makes all things NEW ! Praise You Lord Jesus and with hearts filled with Gratitude, Thank You Precious Lord for restoring our health and healing our wounds in Christ Jesus.
[I will give you back your health
and heal your wounds,” says the Lord.
“For you are called an outcast—
‘Jerusalem for whom no one cares.’”]

Jeremiah 30:17

Thanks for sharing ZNPAH

[ZNPaaneah]

Thank you. I feel that the pride and arrogance led to the sectarianism. I didn't realize until recently how much this came from the LSM. Personally I have come to realize that the LC has embraced a ministry of condemnation instead of a ministry of reconciliation. It is like the word "ruthless". I have always enjoyed the fact that the Bible is not "ruthless".

If you look at that story it would have been easy to and Biblical to condemn Ruth. But Boaz looked at it differently. Everyone saw that Ruth was a Moabitess, Boaz saw that she was the widow of an Israelite. Everyone else was concerned about their own inheritance, Boaz was concerned about her inheritance.

To me that is the essence of the ministry of reconciliation.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I have shared a number of testimonies on the Bereans website so I don’t want to bore anyone by repeating those. (I left the LC in 1997 after being in the LC for almost exactly 20 years.)

Instead, the Lord answered a prayer of mine today that I think might help many here. I know how confused I was when I left the LC. Were my experiences genuine or was I just deceived?

So the Lord asked me today, “how did you feel when you left the LC?” I felt terrible, like I had lost my one true love. “So why didn’t you fight?” I didn’t want to hurt anyone, I thought the church would be better off without me. “Now how do you feel when you learned of how the LC has been overrun with wolves? I felt sick. “You don’t want to gloat?” No, I feel sick, I should have done something. “That” He said, “is love. Your experience was genuine.”

Thank you for sharing this conversation with the Lord.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Thank you. I feel that the pride and arrogance led to the sectarianism. I didn't realize until recently how much this came from the LSM. Personally I have come to realize that the LC has embraced a ministry of condemnation instead of a ministry of reconciliation. It is like the word "ruthless". I have always enjoyed the fact that the Bible is not "ruthless".

If you look at that story it would have been easy to and Biblical to condemn Ruth. But Boaz looked at it differently. Everyone saw that Ruth was a Moabitess, Boaz saw that she was the widow of an Israelite. Everyone else was concerned about their own inheritance, Boaz was concerned about her inheritance.

To me that is the essence of the ministry of reconciliation.

Loved your little "Ruthless" comments about the Lord and His word.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Thank you. I feel that the pride and arrogance led to the sectarianism. I didn't realize until recently how much this came from the LSM. Personally I have come to realize that the LC has embraced a ministry of condemnation instead of a ministry of reconciliation. It is like the word "ruthless". I have always enjoyed the fact that the Bible is not "ruthless".

If you look at that story it would have been easy to and Biblical to condemn Ruth. But Boaz looked at it differently. Everyone saw that Ruth was a Moabitess, Boaz saw that she was the widow of an Israelite. Everyone else was concerned about their own inheritance, Boaz was concerned about her inheritance.

To me that is the essence of the ministry of reconciliation.

One more thing that came to me ZNPAH.

Back peddling, I want to share something several sisters fellowshipped/prayed about (among many other things) this past weekend. Several former LC sisters have been getting together every year for the last 4 -5 yrs for an informal but wonderful 'retreat'. We come from all over though most are from Texas.

One of the fellowship/prayer items was our concern for how the church -not the LSM church- the CHURCH as a whole is filthy and defiled. So much idolotry/fornication. We prayed for the Lord to sanctify, purify, set apart His church that we would all be pure, spotless, without blemish or wrinkle.

Without bringing up the LC, we all know in our hearts, this was one topic greatly spoken of during the 70s in the LC. It's all biblical, scriptural and I do thank God for this incredible revelation.

This is why we took pride in being in the LC. We were after God's own Heart and we realized Jesus loves the church and we loved the church. The problem that snuck in was we, the LCrs considered ourselves to be THE church, thanks to Lee's teaching. NO ALL believers are THE CHURCH.

But back to my point...our hearts were in the right place in the beginning. This is why we dressed alike, talked alike, prayed alike. We wanted to be set apart..to be sanctified. I don't think we initially dressed alike to be sectarian. We dressed alike because we didn't want to be tainted by the world.

As time went on, little by little many began to realize Lee didn't question our sectarianism. He approved it and embraced it. Before long, most saints simply dressed, talked, prayed and read all of Lee's teachings..putting him and the LC which is now the LSM (for all intent and purposes) above CHRIST. We stopped reading/searching the scriptures for ourselves. "Lee said it" and that was THAT.

I can't speak for ALL the localities but I believe for the most part the saints in the LC during the 70s had a unique Anointing because not only did we love the Lord but we loved one another. Yeah...we didn't have 'friends' for the most part but nonetheless we DID love one another as Christ loves the church. And today many former LCrs and even current LSMrs are FRIENDS. We also HAVE friends outside the 'LC'. I have several NON Christian friends and many NON Christian relatives who I get along with great and who also get along with me Great! They know my 'stand' but I don't push the Word of God on them.

If only we would have stuck to the Word of God, to reaching out to one another and to the universal church WITH LOVE and to the unbelievers..pointing them to CHRIST, maybe, just maybe, the Anointing would not have lifted, the Holy Spirit...the Life Giving Spirit, the Word of God would not have left us. The GOOD NEWS God's anointing is still on us as we look to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our Faith.

We all are thankful you have joined the forums. This is a much 'calmer', 'sweeter' forum than the other one. We hope you will continue to post and share your thoughts from the Lord.

[ZNPaaneah]

Thank you. (Please don’t call me ZNPAH, Paaneah is one of the names the Bible uses for our Lord, so Z or ZNP would be a lot better). While reading your post I was reminded to be thankful in all things. It occurred to me that due to my poverty I was actually quite blessed. I was a volunteer for the Irving hall for 1 1/2 years, there was a lot of talk about the ministry of course, and I helped print the ministry, but I couldn't afford to buy it. So I spent all of my time in the Bible. (Prior to that I had been a full time student on a fixed budget. When I did buy a book I would read it through multiple times before I could buy a second. I only bought a few and they were mostly Watchman Nee.) I then went to Odessa which was just a home meeting when I went, we didn't have a book room or a standing order or anything like that, so again I heard a lot of testimonies about the ministry, but my time was spent almost exclusively in the Bible. Later I went to the FTTT and again, because of the weight restrictions I had to leave virtually every book I had behind. The only books I took were my bibles and hymnals. I even had to leave my concordance which became a blessing because I had to learn how to find verses without it. This gave me a completely different way to look at the Bible. In Taiwan I was somewhat in a bubble because of my poor Chinese. I didn't return until 1995, by then the LC seemed like a very different place. Also, after 1986 I tried buying the ministry books but couldn’t stomach them.

As I become older and look back I am ashamed of the way I have treated others. Having sins and offenses that are small compared to what others have done doesn't seem to be much of a justification anymore.

The Lord reached down and had mercy on me. I need that attitude. I often imagine the shame I will feel if I appear before the Lord and I had been unwilling to show mercy on others for fear I would get my "clothes" dirty. Being unwilling to follow the Lord’s example has to be one of the blemishes he was referring to in the verse you quoted.

Recently I got a PM from a brother on the other site and he said his desire was that the LSM would publish a repentance to deal with past sins. Well, the Lord said that "we should do unto others as we would have them do unto us". We can't control what the LSM does, but we can control what we do. This forum (and the other one) has helped me to understand many things, especially what others were going through. This afternoon I was repenting of fearfulness. I realized to my shame that my fearfulness exposed divisive thoughts that needed to be repented of. Why was I afraid of a saint, what does that say about my thoughts?

I am happy to hear about your retreat and fellowship. Most of my contact is with Christians who never had any contact with the LC. We have had some wonderful experiences. In September of 2000 we had a large rally in front of the UN. We filled the park across the street. We were meeting about the Christians who were being persecuted in Sudan. We were going to have a second meeting but it was cancelled due to 9/11. These saints always want to know what it is like to be a missionary. I feel so limited in what I have shared with them. The Pastor is familiar with WL and has asked me a lot of questions. He wanted to know if it was a cult, I gave him all my life studies and told him he could make his own decision. One of my favorite meetings of the year is the thanksgiving dinner. We spend the entire day serving thanksgiving dinner to any and all that come in. Many are poor, some are homeless or living in shelters, and several hundred of the saints also show up at some point in the day. It is the most relaxed meeting of the year. New Year’s eve is another one of my favorite meetings. The entire meeting hall is packed with several thousand saints to greet the new year on our knees. Afterwards we eat and fellowship until about 2 or 3.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Thank you. (Please don’t call me ZNPAH, Paaneah is one of the names the Bible uses for our Lord, so Z or ZNP would be a lot better).

I didn't know it was offensive to you. You have a unique name. Perhaps you can explain to us/me what made you choose that particular name, Z. I had no idea Paaneah is one of the names the Bible uses for our Lord. Thanks for the gold nugget.

While reading your post I was reminded to be thankful in all things. It occurred to me that due to my poverty I was actually quite blessed.

I believe this is how I started to experience more blessings in my life too. I recall thanking the Lord for beautiful days, for my job, for my family, for my friends, for all He's done for me.

I was a volunteer for the Irving hall for 1 1/2 years, there was a lot of talk about the ministry of course, and I helped print the ministry, but I couldn't afford to buy it. So I spent all of my time in the Bible.

Truly a blessing in disguise ! And yet, as a sidebar, interesting how no one bought you a book ! When I got saved in the LC, the saints gave me a small NT until I bought my own bible.

(Prior to that I had been a full time student on a fixed budget. When I did buy a book I would read it through multiple times before I could buy a second. I only bought a few and they were mostly Watchman Nee.)

I don't think I've ever read any of Nee's or Lee's books from cover to cover. I read the Life studies and my bible. Back in my day, we had the KJ and the NASB not the RcV.

As I become older and look back I am ashamed of the way I have treated others.

I've been there too but God is soo much bigger, much more patient and much more Merciful and Gracious to us. Jesus already nailed our guilt and shame on the cross and His Blood has cleansed us. I'm sure many of those we've mistreated have had their memories erased by God so that HE can work on them. Remember. Jesus is the Savior and Deliverer. We aren't.

The Lord reached down and had mercy on me. I need that attitude.

Me too !! And boy has He ever given me an attitude adjustment !!

I often imagine the shame I will feel if I appear before the Lord and I had been unwilling to show mercy on others for fear I would get my "clothes" dirty. Being unwilling to follow the Lord’s example has to be one of the blemishes he was referring to in the verse you quoted.

His Word tells us if we confess our sins, He is JUST and forgives them all...past, present and to come. Behold HE makes all things NEW! Let not your heart be troubled ZNP.

This afternoon I was repenting of fearfulness. I realized to my shame that my fearfulness exposed divisive thoughts that needed to be repented of.

Very Good ! While I too have experienced what you've experienced, and probably MOST of us have, I hold on to His Word that He didn't give us a spirit of Fear.

Why was I afraid of a saint, what does that say about my thoughts?

That you're human...like the rest of us. God is still working on us all.

Most of my contact is with Christians who never had any contact with the LC. We have had some wonderful experiences.

Me too ! And most of my close non-LC Christians don't go 'to church' anymore either. So when we get together, we are soo FREE. No pretentiousness.

In September of 2000 we had a large rally in front of the UN.

Thanks for sharing all your experiences thus far. They are very interesting. May the Lord continue to strengthen you and fill you with the Peace of God which surpasses all understanding.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

The problem that snuck in was we, the LCrs considered ourselves to be THE church, thanks to Lee's teaching.

Maybe it didn't hit you the same way or at the same time, but in early 1973, I already was pretty clear that there was THE church (us) and then there were the divisions (everyone else). I had even already heard Nee and Lee referred to as apostles before Spring began that year.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

Maybe it didn't hit you the same way or at the same time, but in early 1973, I already was pretty clear that there was THE church (us) and then there were the divisions (everyone else). I had even already heard Nee and Lee referred to as apostles before Spring began that year.

I think I had a somewhat unique experience compared to a lot of these posts. I was saved into the LC off of Rice Univ, by a brother who preached the gospel every day that I knew him, David Campbell. He was not your typical anything. The LC could not get a campus ministry on Rice because they couldn't get anyone admitted. As a result all of our fruit had to come from the gospel. As a result no one told me anything about what I could or couldn't do, I met with Campus Crusade, I took a religion course where I met my first "fruit". Mike became the 2nd brother on the campus and very soon we had 3 and then 4. I wrote articles in the school paper. I invited a professor to the meeting who wrote for a major Texas magazine and put an article about the church in the magazine.

(From what I have read this experience is quite different from what one of Jame's Barber's kids had at Austin. They seemed to treat it as a federal offense that he had met with christians on campus.)

I would credit David Campbell for shielding me from all this garbage. He was supposed to have died as a kid, but they saved his life with a very unique therapy. He gave his life to the Lord and just preached from then on. My first year in the LC I stayed at his house with his wife and son. Every Lord's day we would get up around 5 and drive out to some gospel contact of his from preaching that week. We would knock on the guys door for 5 minutes and then go back to the car. I would look at him like he was crazy, we drove an hour out here, the guys in there, I'm not leaving until he opens that door. I would go back and bang on the door for another 15 minutes until he opened the door. He would try to give us some excuse, but we wouldn't budge, then we would take another 20 minutes while he got dressed. On the way to the Church we would stop to get him something to eat. In the end we would walk into a 10am meeting about 30 minutes late. David lived across the street from the meeting hall, so we quickly developed a reputation as being the "delinquents" the guys who couldn't even get to the meeting on time.

But by my senior year on campus our gospel preaching was prevailing. No other word to describe it. There were four of us that ate lunch together (all students) and David would show up as often as he could. Each day we picked a different cafeteria. Before that year was out everyone on that campus knew who we were. We worked as a team. One brother loved to initiate the conversation and then just sit back. I would usually jump in and share something I had just enjoyed that day, something I had never shared with anyone. Before I finished Mike would jump in with his NT and point out verse references to support whatever I had shared and then David would ask the person to pray. There was no "plan" this is just how it worked out. We never tried to use the LSM, we wanted something that was fresh from our own experience.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by OBW

Maybe it didn't hit you the same way or at the same time, but in early 1973, I already was pretty clear that there was THE church (us) and then there were the divisions (everyone else). I had even already heard Nee and Lee referred to as apostles before Spring began that year.

I didn't enter the LC until 1975 Mike H. I did not know about 'the church' -us- and them -degraded Christianity-. I left around 78/79 too btw. Wasn't around for the big 80's showdown.

[Scribe]

"If only we would have stuck to the Word of God, to reaching out to one another and to the universal church WITH LOVE and to the unbelievers..pointing them to CHRIST"

Greetings. Surely the recovery of the anointing is found in doing this you have confessed. Reaching out involves a discovery of Holy hands. Reaching out is a matter of the Word maturing in us and branching hand to hand. Peace to all who love Him.
Scribe

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Back peddling, I want to share something several sisters fellowshipped/prayed about (among many other things) this past weekend. Several former LC sisters have been getting together every year for the last 4 -5 yrs for an informal but wonderful 'retreat'. We come from all over though most are from Texas.

One of the fellowship/prayer items was our concern for how the church -not the LSM church- the CHURCH as a whole is filthy and defiled. So much idolotry/fornication. We prayed for the Lord to sanctify, purify, set apart His church that we would all be pure, spotless, without blemish or wrinkle....

But back to my point...our hearts were in the right place in the beginning. This is why we dressed alike, talked alike, prayed alike. We wanted to be set apart..to be sanctified. I don't think we initially dressed alike to be sectarian. We dressed alike because we didn't want to be tainted by the world.

A certain woman went down from Jerusalem to Jericho and fell among thieves, which stripped her of her raiment, and wounded her, and departed leaving her half dead. And by chance there came down a certain priest that way who was on his way to the Feast of Tabernacles dressed in his best robes: and when he saw her, he passed by on the other side. And likewise a Levite also on the way to the feast dressed in his best robes, when he was at the place, came and looked on her, and passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed to the Feast, came where he was: and he saw her, he had compassion on her. And went to her, and bound up the wounds, pouring in oil and wine and put her on his own beast, and brought her to an inn. Unfortunately the Samaritan got some blood, oil, wine and vomit on his best robes. And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, take care of her; and whatsoever thou spendest more when I come again , I will repay thee. Which now of these three, thinkest thou, will appear before the Lord on that great day pure, and spotless, without blemish or wrinkle in robes that are the righteousnesses of the saints?

[ZNPaaneah]

ZNP, I could not echo what you said any more than what you said. Too many saints have suffered condemnation via persona non grata. I recall a testimony a family friend gave me. He left the recovery in 1990, but attended Francis Ball’s memorial service in 2007. He told me how another brother regarded as persona non grata came to the memorial service. Even after 30 years, this brother (MR) was still being shunned by his former co-workers. Not just in the recovery, but among all Christians, we need a spirit of reconciliation 70 times 7.

Thanks, I got this message via a PM and thought I could respond here. When I was in Houston the elders were trying to intimidate me, I had previously shared about the experience in the meeting where I was rescued by the testimony of an 11 year old brother after the meeting (this is on the Berean site) and from Paul's word in Galatians that he didn't give place to them for an hour, and then they called me into a meeting and told me I had two strikes against me. Since I didn't know how or why I assumed I would get the third strike as well, so from then on I spoke with the thought that this may be my last testimony. So, since that didn't reign me in they arranged hospitality at the next Training in Anaheim and I stayed with the two Salassie brothers in hospitality. At the time one of these brothers was an elder (not Freddie, the other one). Every time I tried to speak during those ten days he told me to shut up. It was a miserable training. But after a couple of days I came to the meeting and there was a paper bag with a note that it was for me. That small gift while I was being "shunned" was another salvation. To me these words and gestures came straight from the Lord as a salvation.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

... Your experience was genuine.”

Thank you!
That was my experience...I just couldn't express it so clearly!