LSM: To observe Christmas, its doubtful you’re a new creation

[Zezima]

Having left the Lord’s Recovery has provided me with space to examine what I truly believe to be true in my heart Vs. what I was always told to be true (because “The Ministry” says it). One of the more recent examinations has been my view on celebrating Christmas. Me and my partner have concluded that it’s a tradition we want to establish in our family, and that we don’t agree with the rationale that “The Ministry” provided to us as to why we shouldn’t.

I’m not here to debate your views on Christmas & if christians should or should not be celebrated because frankly, I don’t care. We have a freedom in Christ, that while spoken of in the “Lord’s Recovery” was often neglected or replaced by rules to achieve a higher plane of spirituality or favor in God’s eyes. Whether you are for or against the celebration of Christmas is between you & God. In fact, Paul in his letter to Rome brings up the matter of participating in or observing special days..


Romans 14: 5-10
One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.*The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.*For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself.*For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s.*For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God

After arriving at our conclusion on Christmas, I was curious what “The Ministry” has to say about the holiday. I found two quotes that were astonishing (there are many more quotes but these are what caught my attention) in the claims that they made.


Quote Number 1
“Every denomination must be examined to see whether or not it still has something of the great prostitute in it. To have a Christmas tree in your home is to practice something of the great prostitute. Probably you cannot find one Christian group that has not been influenced by the prostitute. Perhaps only in the local churches can you find a place that has nothing of the prostitute.” Life-study of Revelation, msg. 51: The Great Prostitute Sitting on a Scarlet Beast (1)

Here Witness Lee makes some pretty bold statements:
- To have a Christmas Tree in your home is to practice something of the great prostitute
- Probably all Christian Groups are influenced by the prostitute.
- Only the Local Churches have nothing of the prostitute.


Quote Number 2
”Today millions of Christians are occupied even more by the religious world than by the secular world. Take Christmas as an example. The celebration of Christmas is certainly related to the religious world. If you still observe Christmas, it is doubtful that you are living a new creation. The celebration of Christmas has nothing to do with God’s new creation.”
Life study of Galatians, msg 30

Here Witness Lee makes some pretty bold statements:
- If you observe Christmas, it is doubtful you are living a new creation
- The celebration of Christmas has nothing to do with God’s new Creation
Also, in quote #2, Witness Lee criticizes the religious world only to finish by stating if you do X then you aren’t in the new creation.


There’s a lot to digest from the quotes above, and I welcome all comments in relation to them. They stood out to me because they caused an addable chuckle to proceed from my mouth. When reading these quotes, remember these things:
1. We are saved by grace through faith, not by our efforts or works.
2. Christ is making all things new.
3. When we were dead in our trespasses, Christ made us alive.
4. Not I, but Christ.

Living in the new creation is not about following a set of dos and don'ts, bringing a tree into your home is not the practice of the great prostitute. Following a set of Dos and Don'ts is not living in the new creation, attempting to earn salvation is the practice of the great prostitute.

[Ohio]

I view Christmas like the Passover for the Jews. It is a memorial to remember a great event. As such it is an empty shell, depending on what you make of it. If you only see worldly commercialism and celebrate external traditions, then at least you are maintaining, to a certain degree, the memory of this great event for the next generation. Those who have a love for God and His word, however, will attempt to pass on to the next generation a living truth and faith in the incarnation of the Savior. We are not celebrating some “happy birthday Jesus,” but a memorial of His birth into mankind.

[GraceAlone]

Thanks for posting those quotes, Zezima. As ridiculous as they are (yet very typical of WL's hyperbolic style), it does help me to better understand why not celebrating Christmas was a hill that so many, including my family, chose to die on. I've found that dogmatic anti-Christmas stance to be increasingly hard to grasp, especially given how very thin the scholarship is supporting the idea of pagan roots. But reading those quotes reminds me of why they might believe so strongly in abstaining from this and other holidays. I don't have to agree with it, but I can understand where the belief is coming from.

I have lots of thoughts on this as a "church kid," but I agree with your instinct not to get into a debate on the pros and cons of Christmas. I will say that part of my personal journey has been a dramatic shift over the years to where I see many aspects of the "old creation," i.e. the material world, not as distractions or "signs of the prostitute" but as conduits through which we, as incarnational creatures, can come to better appreciate and revel in the more spiritual realities of the new creation. Especially children.

It's like the point made in one of the Unchained videos about all the trees of the garden being available to eat (except one). We have much more freedom than we previously understood as part of our belonging to Christ and our being children of a joyful and generous Father.

[Nell]

The worst part of topics like this one is that quotes like these are a threat. Do what you're told, or else. It's more important to know all things Lee and the consequences of noncompliance, rather than knowing the Lord Himself, following Him and obeying His commands.

As long as you obey Lee and the "brothers" you seemingly negate your responsibility to the Lord Himself.

Lee's ministry is a ministry of threats. It's only gotten worse since Lee's death.

Nell

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Nell

The worst part of topics like this one is that quotes like these are a threat. Do what you're told, or else. It's more important to know all things Lee and the consequences of noncompliance, rather than knowing the Lord Himself, following Him and obeying His commands.
Nell

100%, and like GraceAlone mentioned it makes it easier to understand WHY people felt that way about Christmas.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

As ridiculous as they are (yet very typical of WL's hyperbolic style), it does help me to better understand why not celebrating Christmas was a hill that so many, including my family, chose to die on. I've found that dogmatic anti-Christmas stance to be increasingly hard to grasp, especially given how very thin the scholarship is supporting the idea of pagan roots. But reading those quotes reminds me of why they might believe so strongly in abstaining from this and other holidays. I don't have to agree with it, but I can understand where the belief is coming from.

I too climbed that hill and fought too many stupid battles there. Lee's anti-Christmas stance followed that of John Darby and the Plymouth Brethren, and was mostly cultural. The "spell" was broken for me one day thinking about how one of Lee's "Seven Feasts" was on Chinese New Year. Why did Lee and the Chinese folks get to use that holiday to preach the gospel and have get-togethers, when us Americans could not celebrate our Christian holidays?

Pagan roots? Oh please. Do you know how many nasty pagan roots surround CNY? That never stopped WL and the Chinese saints from celebrating it, eating moon-pies, and yet he condemned Christmas every winter training. His lines of reasoning were so manipulative, robbing us of our freedoms. I was promised that if I took a stand for the LC and reject Christmas, then all my family would be saved into the LC.

Just because that day is so commercialized and used as a celebration for worldly parties, that was sufficient reason for us not to use that day to worship God and celebrate His birth into humanity?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Pagan roots? Oh please. Do you know how many nasty pagan roots surround CNY? That never stopped WL and the Chinese saints from celebrating it, eating moon-pies, and yet he condemned Christmas every winter training. His lines of reasoning were so manipulative, robbing us of our freedoms. I was promised that if I took a stand for the LC and reject Christmas, then all my family would be saved into the LC.

And there it is - "robbing us of our freedoms." That is relying on a fleshly ordinance to try and do what!? Conform people outwardly into the image of Christ!? Ridiculous - not possible. All it does is put more bondage on a person and rob them of Christ.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And there it is - "robbing us of our freedoms." That is relying on a fleshly ordinance to try and do what!? Conform people outwardly into the image of Christ!? Ridiculous - not possible. All it does is put more bondage on a person and rob them of Christ.

I think WL’s real intention was to separate us from our families by preventing us from celebrating holidays, the very thing which brings families together.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

I will say that part of my personal journey has been a dramatic shift over the years to where I see many aspects of the "old creation," i.e. the material world, not as distractions or "signs of the prostitute" but as conduits through which we, as incarnational creatures, can come to better appreciate and revel in the more spiritual realities of the new creation. Especially children.

This is fascinating and something I haven’t fully considered. Can you explain a bit more by what you mean by the old creation being “conduits”.

[GraceAlone]

Originally Posted by Zezima

This is fascinating and something I haven’t fully considered. Can you explain a bit more by what you mean by the old creation being “conduits”.

Here is a quote from theologian Alexander Schmemann that fleshes it out a bit.

The world as man’s food is not something “material” and limited to material functions, thus different from, and opposed to, the specifically “spiritual” functions by which man is related to God. All that exists is God’s gift to man, and it all exists to make God known to man, to make man’s life communion with God. It is divine love made food, made life for man. God blesses everything He creates, and, in biblical language, this means that He makes all creation the sign and means of His presence and wisdom, love and revelation: “O taste and see that the Lord is good.
Alexander Schmemann, For the Life of the World

By way of just one practical example: as a parent, I take joy in giving my children gifts at Christmas time. I enjoy considering what they would love receiving and wisely choosing things that will benefit and bless them, and then seeing their reactions and knowing they feel loved in this tangible way. This has drawn me more deeply into the heart of my Father in heaven. I realize my experience with gift giving as a parent is a mere (but helpful) shadow of how our Father loves each of us, thinks of us and our needs, delights in us, and acts wisely and generously on our behalf.

[zeek]

I went to the Living Stream website and looked at the Life Studies cited above, but I did not find the statements quoted. They may have been redacted by the editors. I did find the following in Chapter 56 0f the Life Studies of Hebrews:

Many dear ones have seen the Lord’s recovery, but due to the matter of Christmas, they sold their birthright. Their Christmas celebration was like the religious meals in Judaism. Many American and European Christians find it difficult to give up Santa Claus and Christmas trees. The teachings about Christmas trees, Santa Claus, and stockings are some of today’s various and strange teachings. A number of saints in the western world have been distracted from the Lord’s recovery by these very things. If we would take away these things, many of the children would forsake the church, and many grandparents would be unhappy, saying, “Who is this preacher who comes to our country to take away Christmas, Santa Claus, and the Christmas stockings?” Others have said, “We know that the Lord’s recovery is the way, but because our children cannot give up Christmas, we cannot take this way.” In principle, they have been drawn away by today’s religious attractions as the Hebrew believers were by the festival foods in the first century.

As a former participant in the "Lord's Recovery" for thirteen years I can testify with certainty that Witness Lee most certainly opposed Christianity. I suppose that he opposed celebrating Christmas on the basis of purity. I was opposed to his money making schemes and lawsuits against Christians on the same basis. For that I was labeled as a negative brother. On this Thankgiving holiday I pray, "Father, thy kingdom come. Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors." Happy holidays to you all!

[I tell the truth]

In my region a coworker speaks to us once every month. I won't name him or even abbreviate his initials because I didn't know members of the church come on here to stalk and troll.

But, he was speaking some how thought about Christmas. He said stupid Christmas. And then laughed and said sorry but it bothers me and said it was true.

A few months ago at a Friday night meeting for new college students contacts a leading one was bashing Christmas to a new one during dinner. He told the new one that it's leaven because the real gospel and salvation is too much too handle.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by I tell the truth

In my region a coworker speaks to us once every month. I won't name him or even abbreviate his initials because I didn't know members of the church come on here to stalk and troll.

But, he was speaking some how thought about Christmas. He said stupid Christmas. And then laughed and said sorry but it bothers me and said it was true.

A few months ago at a Friday night meeting for new college students contacts a leading one was bashing Christmas to a new one during dinner. He told the new one that it's leaven because the real gospel and salvation is too much too handle.

Does it not confuse people when Christians bash what they consider is the day of remembrance of the “newborn King?” Why not rather expose commercialism and use that day to preach the Gospel? Why align yourselves with Jehovah Witnesses who reject the Deity of Christ and any positive remembrance of His birth?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Does it not confuse people when Christians bash what they consider is the day of remembrance of the “newborn King?” Why not rather expose commercialism and use that day to preach the Gospel? Why align yourselves with Jehovah Witnesses who reject the Deity of Christ and any positive remembrance of His birth?

Exaculy my thoughts these days!

Our prayer Tuesday night was that the Lord would speak through certain Christ honoring Christmas carols to unbelievers.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Exaculy my thoughts these days!

Our prayer Tuesday night was that the Lord would speak through certain Christ honoring Christmas carols to unbelievers.

Wasn’t this Apostle Paul’s attitude? Did not he risk his own life to go back to Jerusalem for the Passover? He knew in advance that he might be arrested, or worse, yet he still wanted to be there for Passover. Did not Paul know clearly that the Passover was part of the old covenant? That Jesus fulfilled the Passover? That in Jerusalem they only celebrated types, figures, shadows, but the body, the reality, was Christ Himself?

Of course he did. Yet he still went. He went with prayer. He used the Passover festivities to meet people, to share Christ, to bring gifts, to sing the hymns. Should not we do the same? Should not we all have the same liberties?

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Wasn’t this Apostle Paul’s attitude? Did not he risk his own life to go back to Jerusalem for the Passover? He knew in advance that he might be arrested, or worse, yet he still wanted to be there for Passover. Did not Paul know clearly that the Passover was part of the old covenant? That Jesus fulfilled the Passover? That in Jerusalem they only celebrated types, figures, shadows, but the body, the reality, was Christ Himself?

Of course he did. Yet he still went. He went with prayer. He used the Passover festivities to meet people, to share Christ, to bring gifts, to sing the hymns. Should not we do the same? Should not we all have the same liberties?

Very good! Thank you for sharing this aspect of Paul’s life.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Wasn’t this Apostle Paul’s attitude? Did not he risk his own life to go back to Jerusalem for the Passover? He knew in advance that he might be arrested, or worse, yet he still wanted to be there for Passover. Did not Paul know clearly that the Passover was part of the old covenant? That Jesus fulfilled the Passover? That in Jerusalem they only celebrated types, figures, shadows, but the body, the reality, was Christ Himself?

Of course he did. Yet he still went. He went with prayer. He used the Passover festivities to meet people, to share Christ, to bring gifts, to sing the hymns. Should not we do the same? Should not we all have the same liberties?

At the very least your salvation, your membership to the new creation, have nothing to do with your participation in this holiday.

[Recovering]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Exaculy my thoughts these days!

Our prayer Tuesday night was that the Lord would speak through certain Christ honoring Christmas carols to unbelievers.

When we were still meeting with the LC and hosting a home meeting, for several years we would take our home meeting caroling up and down our street during one of the weeks leading up to Christmas. (At the time I didn't know to call it Advent...) It was fun to walk door to door and sing "Hark the Herald Angels Sing", "O Holy Night", and other similar hymns to our neighbors. I think our home meeting was probably unusual or even unique for that local church in that regard, but no one ever shut it down or even talked about it to us. (Of course, ours was not "in the central line of God's Economy" because we focused our care on working singles or those back from the FTT but not serving full time rather than on college students. Maybe for that reason we were off the radar. LOL)
One thing I've long loved about Advent and Christmas is it's a unique time of year when people are willing to listen to songs about Jesus.