Church kid from the 80s (Anaheim)

bettercountry · 11-11-2022, 01:45 PM

My family migrated to Anaheim in 1976 and I grew up in the local church there from that time until the late 80s when the “storm” caused so many to leave, myself included. Although I whole-heartedly agree with the general consensus of this forum that there were/are many errors in the teachings and culture of Nee/Lee/LR/LC/LSM, there were undeniably many experiences I had, especially prior to 1986, that were extremely positive. There were many sweet and rich times of fellowship, teaching, prayer and singing, and there were undoubtedly, many genuine believers who played a huge role in my spiritual journey in coming to know Christ as my personal Savior. And I know that many others had similar positive experiences as myself. Perhaps, one would suggest…the Holy Spirit graciously was present and moving DESPITE the many problems that existed even prior to 1986 in the LR/LC. But, I think that could be said of any and all churches, this side of heaven. Whether in our personal life or in a church setting, it is the UNMERITED FAVOR of God through His Spirit that He bestows upon us because of the work and person of Jesus. That’s because we are so imperfect, even in those times when we think we are righteous.

Of course, when the numerous downright heretical and fleshly/demonic teachings and practices in the LR/LC started arising ~1986, it seemed that whatever presence and blessing of the Holy Spirit that was still in the Lord’s Recovery up that point all but dissipated. Even as a young person, I clearly felt this. The richness and sweetness was gone. Again, I’m not saying that prior to 1986 there weren’t problems and doctrinal errors. But, the nature of the LR completely changed in ~1986 in that the general goal of WL/LSM was no longer Christ.

Below are some of my major experiences from about 1986 until I eventually left the LR/LC:
- Around 1986, in various church meetings, I began to hear talk from WL about the “New Way”. Even as a 14 year-old, I remember having a very uneasy feeling inwardly about this New Way. The general impression and experience I had was that there was a shift from seeking Christ to something other than Christ.
- A huge by-product of the New Way was that personal testimonies and experiences of Christ were now frowned upon and discouraged. Instead, speaking about the New Way or regurgitating texts from an LSM publication was now what gained approval.
- The New Way resulted in church meetings — even Lord’s Table meetings — being moved from the meeting hall to various homes (this, in and of itself, was probably not necessarily a bad thing….but the purpose and focus of this was completely wrong) (also, another effect was that many of the YP gradually lost touch with each other and grew discouraged and no longer attended meetings)
- My involvement in the door-knocking movement. I went on a few door-knocking sessions, and every time, I felt sick to my stomach by the time we returned. The way we just memorized and regurgitated the “Mystery of Human Life” pamphlet and the insincere/love-less conversations and forceful baptisms….with the overall focus on numbers. Writing down numbers and celebrating with other teams on a public bulletin board when we all announced our numbers/achievements. Disgusting.
- The ugly Lord’s Day morning meetings. The shouting and terrible arguments during the meetings. So loud that the children downstairs could hear the thunderous yelling of the adults. I know…because I was often serving in “Sunday School” (or “Children’s Meeting, as we called it) and had to try to distract or explain what was happening to the kids.
- The 1987 Young People’s conference in Taiwan. I attended. We dressed up like junior FTT’rs and essentially attended a conference that was just full of focus on WL and “the ministry” and on numbers. And how WE could bring the Lord back because WE were soooo special. Fortunately, I was able to be mostly preoccupied in doing video work during the conference so I could either be assigned to do camera-work during the meetings or hide out in a tech room.
- The 1987 YP’s conference in Irving, which immediately followed the Taipei training. I don’t remember who all the speakers are, but they were essentially the same ones that spoke in Taipei. I remember Jake Jacobsen and Dan Towle being a couple of the main speakers. For reasons unknown to myself at the time, I was starting to get very angry. Angry even at serving ones to the point I got in a face to face argument with one. This was so far from who I was by nature…and it left me shocked at myself. I didn’t know at the time why I was acting out like this, but of course, I later realized it was because I was conflicted. My conscience was not at peace. Deep inside, I knew that the only community I had ever known and the place/people that had once brought me the greatest feeling of joy and purpose would be something I would have to relinquish. My parents had already left the LC by this time. But, for the first time, I began to have deep personal conviction.
- The 1987 Irving baptisms into the New Way. Regrettably, I participated. Horrendous. I wish I could take that back, but fortunately, the Lord knows every person’s heart. I repented and I believe the Lord forgave me. I know there were others who, that night, whether they participated or refrained, came to the same crossroads and realization that I did, in terms of the dark place the Lord’s Recovery had become.
- Spring 1988 SoCal YP’s retreat at Pilgrim Pines - continued and magnified teaching and endorsement of the New Way by the same leading brothers. A large portion of one particular meeting was dedicated to going around the entire room — to every attendee (several hundred) — and counting one by one — what essentially was conveyed as a vow to become a full-timer upon graduation from college. Pressured/forceful.
- YPGs - Youth Propagation Groups. I was briefly in one. There were even songs we sang about YPGs. One I remember in particular said something like “500,000 you will see; next year there will be in YPG”. Again, focus on numbers. The YP in meetings would get excited when the speaker(s) would ramble off potential numbers that would be saved through YPG. I don’t remember anything we did whenever a YPG meeting took place other than burnings. I remember going to a friend’s house for a YPG “meeting” and we would just burn what we deemed to be worldly possessions (continuation of a practice that started in Irvine 1987). This, again, not a bad thing if done from the right heart. In fact, a very good thing if done from the proper heart and with the right conviction from Christ. What we did was so far removed from that. It was all a show.

By the Lord’s grace, He gave me the eventual understanding and discernment (and strength) to leave the LR/LC completely by around 1990. Because the LC had given me my source of identity and the only place I had ever known in terms of a community, it took me a while to fully walk away, but I eventually did. It was extremely difficult and painful, to say the least. Painful in human terms, but of course, it was the right and necessary thing to do. Ultimately, the Lord led me out because of His grace and mercy.

Having said all this, however……in some ways, I feel this is not totally a “lived happily ever after” story, unfortunately. Although my walk with Christ has deepened tremendously after leaving the LC, there were enough good experiences/memories I had while in the LC (prior to 1986) that has left part of my soul longing for some of those things. Especially since these are things that I have not experienced in the churches I have been a part of since I left the LC, or at least not to the level I experienced in the LC. Things like open and corporate singing, prayer, participation in sharing, etc. And, even some of the rich exposition of the Word. To me, they were definitely a foretaste of what heaven must be like, and because of that, I miss it dearly and long for it. Which is, in a broad sense, I guess sort of the underlying theme of my nick/handle. We, who are in Christ, in so many ways “long for a better country”, like those in Hebrews 11. On earth, even at its best, we still sigh and groan in many ways. And that’s to be expected.

I also grieve with the fact that I lost communication with many people I still care about deeply. And, even if there is some occasion that causes our paths to cross, fellowship is difficult, primarily because of the belief by LC members that those outside the LR/LC are lost or rebellious, and some would even say, unsaved. The feeling for me (when I see someone from the LC) is like attending a family reunion, but not being able to connect with anyone. Some may treat by shunning. Or, others may treat me with kindness, but in a pitied way. If only I could just have genuine heart-to-heart conversations, about life and about Christ.

Most of all though, regarding the LR/LC, the feelings of sorrow I still have pertain mostly to this — I grieve for those who are still trapped in the system and especially those who know they should leave, but for some reason, feel they cannot. I personally know some in such a situation currently. Hopefully, for them, in some mysterious way, perhaps the Lord can even use my testimony as an encouragement.

countmeworthy · 11-11-2022, 08:56 PM

Hi bettercountry,

I was quite moved by your testimony/ experience in the LC/LR. I totally agree that before the 80s, the Spirit of the Lord was strong and the fellowship among the saints was enjoyable, nurturing and sweet. I got saved in 1975 through brothers at work who were in the church in San Diego. We were a “young peoples church”. Most of us in our early twenties.

By late 1977, early 1978, I felt the Spirit of the Lord departing. We boasted on not being legalistic, but by 1977, all the “good” brothers were wearing white shirts, skinny ties and super short hair. That’s how we identified a “good brother”. Most “good” sisters wore doilies at the meetings.

Then came the change from “ Sunday” to “the Lord’s day”. Don’t get caught saying “Sunday” or you’d get bombarded with “O lord Jesus” from every direction.

Then we became “the Lord’s Recovery”. I don’t think that bothered me as much as saying “the Lord’s day”, since all the days of the week are named after pagan idols. Such legalism.

I slowly started breaking away by 1978. By 1980 I was completely out and like you…it was tough but the Holy Spirit of Jesus got me through.

I remember going to a few meetings in Anaheim and boy did I strain my ears to understand Lee speak.

(To be fair, I have to strain my ears to understand my Vietnamese next door neighbors speak too.

You know what I miss about the LC back in the day, the psalms and the tunes to the Word of God. I wonder if the still sing the psalms. No matter…I still do.

I hope you are doing well.

UtahGiant · 11-11-2022, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Then we became “the Lord’s Recovery”. I don’t think that bothered me as much as saying “the Lord’s day”, since all the days of the week are named after pagan idols. Such legalism.

I find this interesting. So the name “The Lord’s Recovery” wasn’t something that was there at the start? What was it called then?

Nell · 11-12-2022, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UtahGiant

I find this interesting. So the name “The Lord’s Recovery” wasn’t something that was there at the start? What was it called then?

UtahGiant—

Glad you asked. It was previously called The Local Church or The Church. Later, many shortened it to the “LC”. As I recall, the “Lord’s recovery” or “the recovery”, was not really intended to become a name. Lee frequently described his “work” as teachings and truths having been “recovered” by Nee and himself. This reference happened so often in Lee’s speaking that this “recovered truths” notion seemed to morph into an informal common name, “the recovery”, by the membership. They basically attributed the collection of Nee/Lee teachings as having been “recovered” by Nee and Lee. This thought further morphed into “the Lord’s Recovery.”

To me, “the Lord’s Recovery” is a cringeworthy moniker for a collection of teachings on which the Lord has not placed His name. On the contrary, many of these “recovered” teachings can and have been proven false on this forum and many other places for years.

Many of these so-called “recovered” false interpretations of Scripture are borderline if not full-on heretical. My opinion…the moniker “The Lord’s Recovery”, out of deference to the Lord Himself, the moniker should end. I have never used this moniker myself and would like to see it “go away”.

I’m obviously seriously opinionated on this matter.

Nell

Nell · 11-12-2022, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bettercountry

..
Having said all this, however……in some ways, I feel this is not totally a “lived happily ever after” story, unfortunately. Although my walk with Christ has deepened tremendously after leaving the LC, there were enough good experiences/memories I had while in the LC (prior to 1986) that has left part of my soul longing for some of those things. Especially since these are things that I have not experienced in the churches I have been a part of since I left the LC, or at least not to the level I experienced in the LC. Things like open and corporate singing, prayer, participation in sharing, etc. And, even some of the rich exposition of the Word. To me, they were definitely a foretaste of what heaven must be like, and because of that, I miss it dearly and long for it. Which is, in a broad sense, I guess sort of the underlying theme of my nick/handle. We, who are in Christ, in so many ways “long for a better country”, like those in Hebrews 11. On earth, even at its best, we still sigh and groan in many ways. And that’s to be expected....

bettercountry--
Thank you so much for sharing your testimony/history with us.

So much to reply to, but for now, I want to agree with you wholeheartedly on this part of your post.

The rich word is what "captured" me, too. It was truth. That's why it was so rich. As a result, since the truth does not return void, it was this same rich word of truth that helped me to see that something was not right there. Something had changed. The truth was no longer allowed to manifesting itself. The very truth that "got me in," "got me out!" The early truth I heard, when it was no longer there, helped me to leave.

The big mistake was to think that this truth came as a result of Lee’s teachings, instead of from God himself.

I'm reminded of this quote:
“The truth is like a lion; you don’t have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself.” ― Augustine of Hippo

I'm still in contact with many who left the Local Church years ago. There is an eternal gratitude among us as well as fellowship.

Again, thank you for your testimony.

Nell

countmeworthy · 11-12-2022, 10:59 AM

Amen Nell. I agree wholeheartedly.

Thank you both for sharing.
God bless and protect us all.

bettercountry · 11-12-2022, 02:36 PM

Nell - Absolutely agree with your point about truth. When the pure and unadulterated truth of GOD is spoken (which is actually the only real truth in the universe), then it is always glorious. The person who speaks/conveys the truth is so secondary. The important part is the truth itself, because it speaks of God. And if the Spirit of that true God resides IN US, we will be able to discern and affirm the things that are true.

So, yes, when the Lord revealed certain truths to WL and others in the LC during my time there, it was something that was simply precious. The level of insight and the richness was so wonderful.

So, my stance about the LC is that I’m not going to throw out the baby with the bath-water.

On a sad note, it was interesting to see the effects that happened to the young people in Anaheim when WL and the LC started its stark deviation from the truth in the 80s. Some left Christianity at large. Others may have continued to attend meetings, but gradually started to immerse themselves more in the things of the world. One experience I had that scarred me….even to this day….is attending a gathering of young people (and some serving ones) at a home….and it was essentially a worldly party. Drinking and dancing. No fellowship, nothing spiritual at all. Seeing my one-time junior high leader participate in the drinking, etc…really shook me up. I stood off to the side with a few others and watched in amazement and horror as we wondered, “where are we???” and “who are these people that we thought we knew???”.

The point is, whenever anyone (individual-level or corporate/church) deviates from the truth, you will eventually see its ugly “fruit”.

JJ · 11-13-2022, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bettercountry

Having said all this, however……in some ways, I feel this is not totally a “lived happily ever after” story, unfortunately. Although my walk with Christ has deepened tremendously after leaving the LC, there were enough good experiences/memories I had while in the LC (prior to 1986) that has left part of my soul longing for some of those things. Especially since these are things that I have not experienced in the churches I have been a part of since I left the LC, or at least not to the level I experienced in the LC.

Thanks for sharing bettercountry.

I share your sentiments about “not a happily ever after story”outside the LR. I have yet to see a Christian group practice 1 Cor 12-14 where gifts of the Spirit are allowed free reign with discernment, love, and order. We had the “open floor” freedom in the LC before the mid-80’s (though often lacking in gift, discernment, love, and/or order) that is rare outside the LC except in small groups.

I am biding my time in a community church where small groups and service opportunities have the most freedom for exercising gifts, but the Holy Spirit is constrained in the larger meetings where ordained ministers mostly command the floor and ordinary folks like me can only sing along and listen.

When I see 1 Cor 12-14 practiced even in big meetings somewhere, I’ll be happy to join in.

JJ

bettercountry · 11-14-2022, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJ

I share your sentiments about “not a happily ever after story”outside the LR. I have yet to see a Christian group practice 1 Cor 12-14 where gifts of the Spirit are allowed free reign with discernment, love, and order. We had the “open floor” freedom in the LC before the mid-80’s (though often lacking in gift, discernment, love, and/or order) that is rare outside the LC except in small groups.

I am biding my time in a community church where small groups and service opportunities have the most freedom for exercising gifts, but the Holy Spirit is constrained in the larger meetings where ordained ministers mostly command the floor and ordinary folks like me can only sing along and listen.

When I see 1 Cor 12-14 practiced even in big meetings somewhere, I’ll be happy to join in.

JJ

Very well said. This is exactly my feeling and experience.

Trapped · 11-14-2022, 09:24 AM

Welcome to the forum, bettercountry!

Thanks for sharing your testimony - what a journey!

Can I ask a question (of you or anyone) that has bugged me for a while? Hope this doesn't hit anyone wrong; I'm just trying to understand.

I'm a church kid and my personal view is that the local church has been damaging for the entire time I was in it. However, I hear many people waxing nostalgic over their time in the local church in the 1970s, about how free and flowing and wonderful a time it was.

What I don't understand is I have come across people who were in OTHER groups around that time who also say the same thing. Is it appropriate at all to chalk some of this atmosphere up to the charismatic movement and the Jesus movement of the 1960s and 1970s, as opposed to some particular specialness of the local church that some seem to still be waiting on to relive again?

I'm not asking in order to deny anyone's feelings. I'm just asking because I'm trying to square away if the local church was rotten from the start or not. It doesn't line up with what I have read in the ministry or of what I have heard of Witness Lee's character and destruction prior to coming to the U.S. that the local church would ever have been considered a pure or good group to join, even if it might have felt good at the time. I just wonder if the euphoric happiness people report having back then was just unawareness of what was really going on, etc... It's striking to me that many people still seem to be wishing for what they had 50 years ago, and I'm just trying to understand if the standard they are wishing for is the standard the Bible sets forth.

I mean, I can think of numerous enjoyable times I had with the young people and trips we went on and lots of time in various saints homes, etc.....but it's like it all became fake and deceptive as I saw the truth about what was really going on. The constant "open homes" for example, actually has some destructive elements because it meant that family boundaries were not respected by saints. Open homes are wonderful for students and floating saints, but very difficult for the couples who have the open home that is invaded and who basically have a stream of people using them day after day. So, as much as I liked it sometimes, I wouldn't pine for that kind of open home situation again because I now know that it was an unhealthy set up in the local church, etc.

Although, as I say all that, I am reminded that numerous times when I interact with people at the church I now attend, at the end of the conversation I am always waiting internally to get that "lunch invite" that happened so often in the LC.....and it usually never comes anymore. The LC had more of a "doing life together" vibe, which was really nice, but again, too often it meant that spouses and kids were being neglected as a consequence. And I'm not sure how much of it is just the love bombing to keep you trapped in with the social connections so you can't leave, or how much of it is real. However real it is, though, is entirely predicated on your acceptance of Witness Lee and his doctrines, so....love based on the acceptance of lies isn't real love.

I can't sort it all out.

Anyway, thanks for any insight.

Trapped

Nell · 11-14-2022, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

...
I'm a church kid and my personal view is that the local church has been damaging for the entire time I was in it. However, I hear many people waxing nostalgic over their time in the local church in the 1970s, about how free and flowing and wonderful a time it was.

Good points Trapped,
I was thinking the same thing as I read through this topic and looked at my own experiences. My experience of a long time ago is nowhere near the way it was when you were growing up. Even so, what I experienced in "the good old days" didn't last long. I'm not nostalgic for the "good old days" but I do acknowledge these days did exist. It seems there weren't any "good old days" for you guys.

I recall my prayer "Lord please don't make me go back..."

Quote:

What I don't understand is I have come across people who were in OTHER groups around that time who also say the same thing. Is it appropriate at all to chalk some of this atmosphere up to the charismatic movement and the Jesus movement of the 1960s and 1970s, as opposed to some particular specialness of the local church that some seem to still be waiting on to relive again?

Yes. Absolutely. I believe the atmosphere of the time, the "charismatic movement, Jesus movement" made the goings on in the early day LC easier to accept.

Quote:

I'm not asking in order to deny anyone's feelings. I'm just asking because I'm trying to square away if the local church was rotten from the start or not. It doesn't line up with what I have read in the ministry or of what I have heard of Witness Lee's character and destruction prior to coming to the U.S. that the local church would ever have been considered a pure or good group to join, even if it might have felt good at the time. I just wonder if the euphoric happiness people report having back then was just unawareness of what was really going on, etc... It's striking to me that many people still seem to be wishing for what they had 50 years ago, and I'm just trying to understand if the standard they are wishing for is the standard the Bible sets forth.

I don't know if it was "rotten from the start or not" either. I tend to think that the things that were genuine were greatly usurped by God's enemy...much as Eve was deceived in the garden.

Quote:

I mean, I can think of numerous enjoyable times I had with the young people and trips we went on and lots of time in various saints homes, etc.....but it's like it all became fake and deceptive as I saw the truth about what was really going on. The constant "open homes" for example, actually has some destructive elements because it meant that family boundaries were not respected by saints. Open homes are wonderful for students and floating saints, but very difficult for the couples who have the open home that is invaded and who basically have a stream of people using them day after day. So, as much as I liked it sometimes, I wouldn't pine for that kind of open home situation again because I now know that it was an unhealthy set up in the local church, etc.

Right again. What you describe, even though it might be pleasant for awhile, is not "normal". It was, as you say, unhealthy.

Quote:

Although, as I say all that, I am reminded that numerous times when I interact with people at the church I now attend, at the end of the conversation I am always waiting internally to get that "lunch invite" that happened so often in the LC.....and it usually never comes anymore. The LC had more of a "doing life together" vibe, which was really nice, but again, too often it meant that spouses and kids were being neglected as a consequence. And I'm not sure how much of it is just the love bombing to keep you trapped in with the social connections so you can't leave, or how much of it is real. However real it is, though, is entirely predicated on your acceptance of Witness Lee and his doctrines, so....love based on the acceptance of lies isn't real love.

The social aspect is powerful...more so than we could imagine. And you're right, social and family acceptance is directly linked with "the ministry" and Lee himself. Often, too powerful to resist. Leaving would hurt too much, as many testimonies on this forum state. If you leave, you lose your parents, your family and your friends.

Further, the LC tried/tries to substitute the social ties and "the brothers", for a relationship with God. With herds of people running through the house on a regular basis, parenting the children becomes secondary.

Quote:

I can't sort it all out.

Anyway, thanks for any insight.

Trapped

Nell

bettercountry · 11-14-2022, 02:26 PM

Trapped - I think the heart of the question you raise is excellent and a very fair point. My initial response would be that there were most certainly elements of what you're saying (e.g. charismatic movement of the general era) that play into some of my nostalgia. However, for me at least, I know it goes far deeper than that. Over the years, I have gone through a similar personal exercise numerous times of trying to separate the sheer emotional aspects of what I miss versus the more meaningful spiritual reasons. And, what I've come away with -- and with much personal clarity -- is that the heart of what I long for (and what is absent for the most part in Christianity at large) are the deep spiritual TRUTHS (yes, we must weed through and decipher from the many lies/heresies) that I came to know in the LC, as well as the freedom in Christ for all members to freely participate, whether in small or large settings.

Let me give you an example of what I mean by the deeper spiritual truths. At the risk of offending many members/readers of this forum, I will say that there are many hymns in the LC hymnal, even many that were written by WL, that contain rich truths. Some examples would be "In the holiest place", "Gracious Lord, Thy Name, 'I AM' is", "I've found the One of peerless worth". Precious TRUTHS about who GOD/CHRIST is. No glory in what I'm saying goes to WL. It all goes to God Himself, because the truths that are spoken of in those hymns (just an example) are FACTS about who He is.

This is also an example of what I meant in my initial post about not throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Humanly, whenever we come to see/know anyone that does something as egregious as WL did, especially from the mid-80s onward (but, yes, even before that timeframe), it's natural and maybe excusable to dismiss ALL of what that person did/said. But, sorry, I can never agree with that stance. We all are unrighteous to some degree, and no matter what degree that is, that means we all don't deserve ANYONE listening to ANY of us about ANYTHING. So, what does that leave us with? Unless we come to the ability to look beyond the person (with all his/her flaws) and just look for truths, then we will be prone to live out the rest of our days in the "monastery" of our own pride. Of course, there are cases where certain individuals should be totally shunned, but for me.....WL is not in that category, specifically some of the things that were taught prior to the 80s. Again, I know I'm ruffling a LOT of feathers here, and I really don't want to get into this argument.

Point is, even with those simple examples of the hymns I mentioned -- which if you carefully read the lyrics -- are not necessarily tremendously deep in terms of Christian doctrine, but.....unfortunately, at least in the churches I have been a part of in the past 30+ years, nothing even comes close to something like that.

Anyway, I am not very eloquent, so most likely, the heart of what I'm trying to say is being poorly communicated.

Trapped · 11-14-2022, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Good points Trapped,
I was thinking the same thing as I read through this topic and looked at my own experiences. My experience of a long time ago is nowhere near the way it was when you were growing up. Even so, what I experienced in "the good old days" didn't last long. I'm not nostalgic for the "good old days" but I do acknowledge these days did exist. It seems there weren't any "good old days" for you guys.

Nell

Whatever it was it just seems to have really made an impact. Many people still look back to those days as something special. Oftentimes what they do talk about is just what bettercountry and JJ said, which is that everyone was allowed to speak, etc. But I don't know what this "should" look like in the present day Christian church. Did the LC have the "everyone has" right, as far as how they carried it out? It doesn't seem like it because these posters even admitted they didn't. The gift/discernment/love/order was still apparently missing. Okay....so if all those are missing, the LC wasn't doing it right I guess. But people still long for the wrongly carried out thing.

Again, not trying to step on anyone's toes or experiences. I just haven't experienced that aspect myself and those who speak about it also don't seem to be able to put their finger on it either. So I'm just trying to sort through what people are able to explain to try to figure it out myself.

Trapped

Ohio · 11-14-2022, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

Can I ask a question (of you or anyone) that has bugged me for a while? Hope this doesn't hit anyone wrong; I'm just trying to understand.

I'm a church kid and my personal view is that the local church has been damaging for the entire time I was in it. However, I hear many people waxing nostalgic over their time in the local church in the 1970s, about how free and flowing and wonderful a time it was.

What I don't understand is I have come across people who were in OTHER groups around that time who also say the same thing. Is it appropriate at all to chalk some of this atmosphere up to the charismatic movement and the Jesus movement of the 1960s and 1970s, as opposed to some particular specialness of the local church that some seem to still be waiting on to relive again?

Yes, you are right to credit all the LC blessing to a move of the Spirit of God commonly called the “Jesus Movement.”

It is my view that the loss of that blessing was mostly due to WL’s pride, thinking that he was the source of all the blessing.

11-14-2022, 10:18 PM

I hate to spoil the party of 1960s, 70s and 80s, but there is nothing that speaks more louder than the culture and the social environment of those days. Starting with the hippie movement, the sex movement, the transcendental meditation movement (promoted and displayed by Beatles and other big time celebrities), the local church became infested with the world beyond any possible realms. It was cool to be “drunk with the spirit”, be seeking a living by sight rather than faith. The charismatic, experienced based reality was blinding people especially in the “Sodom and Gomorrah” of our times, which is the state of California, where Recovery originated from. Let’s be real here, Witness Lee would have been run out of every town with the tail between his legs, if he went and spoke at some true Christian Bible believing town in the USA at that time. San Francisco? Southern California? Wow! Great spots to introduce jesus that gets your feeling flowing, your heart pumping at the assurance of the fact that you are “the people “, you are “ tha church”! You are the few, the select, the only expression of God in the USA!

So if you think that that time wasn’t what the people are still searching for, long for, before they got figured out by other Christian to be nothing but a counterfeit, then please proceed to wax poetically about it. Claim as it was some special time of the spirit flowing, rather that calling it for what it was, a delusional way to fit in the society that was seeking to achieve the experience of God by any way necessary, including by branding all other Christian groups as dead religion, whore of Babylon, make yourselves feel as if you have arrived at the heights of the revelation of “the New Testament church”, and I can go on and on.
There isn’t anything real there now or was there anything real at anytime, nether here in the USA or elsewhere in the world as these man claims to have had.

Sorry for bursting bubbles, but there is nothing that’s there to be proud of, IF you honest and genuine about it, as a former member of the LC. My opinion, my belief, and my assessment of the movement that I gave more than quarter of my life too, and spent quite some time studying after my exit. Anyone can pick at things in the current form of churches, and I’m in the same boat as most people commented here, but I rather be there, than be at the altar of men, who have done and shown nothing but who they truly are, a counterfeit group, absent of any kind of true fruits of the Spirit, having a form of godliness but denying its power.

Thanks

11-11-2022, 01:45 PM	#1
bettercountry Member Join Date: Nov 2022 Posts: 26	Church kid from the 80s (Anaheim) My family migrated to Anaheim in 1976 and I grew up in the local church there from that time until the late 80s when the “storm” caused so many to leave, myself included. Although I whole-heartedly agree with the general consensus of this forum that there were/are many errors in the teachings and culture of Nee/Lee/LR/LC/LSM, there were undeniably many experiences I had, especially prior to 1986, that were extremely positive. There were many sweet and rich times of fellowship, teaching, prayer and singing, and there were undoubtedly, many genuine believers who played a huge role in my spiritual journey in coming to know Christ as my personal Savior. And I know that many others had similar positive experiences as myself. Perhaps, one would suggest…the Holy Spirit graciously was present and moving DESPITE the many problems that existed even prior to 1986 in the LR/LC. But, I think that could be said of any and all churches, this side of heaven. Whether in our personal life or in a church setting, it is the UNMERITED FAVOR of God through His Spirit that He bestows upon us because of the work and person of Jesus. That’s because we are so imperfect, even in those times when we think we are righteous. Of course, when the numerous downright heretical and fleshly/demonic teachings and practices in the LR/LC started arising ~1986, it seemed that whatever presence and blessing of the Holy Spirit that was still in the Lord’s Recovery up that point all but dissipated. Even as a young person, I clearly felt this. The richness and sweetness was gone. Again, I’m not saying that prior to 1986 there weren’t problems and doctrinal errors. But, the nature of the LR completely changed in ~1986 in that the general goal of WL/LSM was no longer Christ. Below are some of my major experiences from about 1986 until I eventually left the LR/LC: - Around 1986, in various church meetings, I began to hear talk from WL about the “New Way”. Even as a 14 year-old, I remember having a very uneasy feeling inwardly about this New Way. The general impression and experience I had was that there was a shift from seeking Christ to something other than Christ. - A huge by-product of the New Way was that personal testimonies and experiences of Christ were now frowned upon and discouraged. Instead, speaking about the New Way or regurgitating texts from an LSM publication was now what gained approval. - The New Way resulted in church meetings — even Lord’s Table meetings — being moved from the meeting hall to various homes (this, in and of itself, was probably not necessarily a bad thing….but the purpose and focus of this was completely wrong) (also, another effect was that many of the YP gradually lost touch with each other and grew discouraged and no longer attended meetings) - My involvement in the door-knocking movement. I went on a few door-knocking sessions, and every time, I felt sick to my stomach by the time we returned. The way we just memorized and regurgitated the “Mystery of Human Life” pamphlet and the insincere/love-less conversations and forceful baptisms….with the overall focus on numbers. Writing down numbers and celebrating with other teams on a public bulletin board when we all announced our numbers/achievements. Disgusting. - The ugly Lord’s Day morning meetings. The shouting and terrible arguments during the meetings. So loud that the children downstairs could hear the thunderous yelling of the adults. I know…because I was often serving in “Sunday School” (or “Children’s Meeting, as we called it) and had to try to distract or explain what was happening to the kids. - The 1987 Young People’s conference in Taiwan. I attended. We dressed up like junior FTT’rs and essentially attended a conference that was just full of focus on WL and “the ministry” and on numbers. And how WE could bring the Lord back because WE were soooo special. Fortunately, I was able to be mostly preoccupied in doing video work during the conference so I could either be assigned to do camera-work during the meetings or hide out in a tech room. - The 1987 YP’s conference in Irving, which immediately followed the Taipei training. I don’t remember who all the speakers are, but they were essentially the same ones that spoke in Taipei. I remember Jake Jacobsen and Dan Towle being a couple of the main speakers. For reasons unknown to myself at the time, I was starting to get very angry. Angry even at serving ones to the point I got in a face to face argument with one. This was so far from who I was by nature…and it left me shocked at myself. I didn’t know at the time why I was acting out like this, but of course, I later realized it was because I was conflicted. My conscience was not at peace. Deep inside, I knew that the only community I had ever known and the place/people that had once brought me the greatest feeling of joy and purpose would be something I would have to relinquish. My parents had already left the LC by this time. But, for the first time, I began to have deep personal conviction. - The 1987 Irving baptisms into the New Way. Regrettably, I participated. Horrendous. I wish I could take that back, but fortunately, the Lord knows every person’s heart. I repented and I believe the Lord forgave me. I know there were others who, that night, whether they participated or refrained, came to the same crossroads and realization that I did, in terms of the dark place the Lord’s Recovery had become. - Spring 1988 SoCal YP’s retreat at Pilgrim Pines - continued and magnified teaching and endorsement of the New Way by the same leading brothers. A large portion of one particular meeting was dedicated to going around the entire room — to every attendee (several hundred) — and counting one by one — what essentially was conveyed as a vow to become a full-timer upon graduation from college. Pressured/forceful. - YPGs - Youth Propagation Groups. I was briefly in one. There were even songs we sang about YPGs. One I remember in particular said something like “500,000 you will see; next year there will be in YPG”. Again, focus on numbers. The YP in meetings would get excited when the speaker(s) would ramble off potential numbers that would be saved through YPG. I don’t remember anything we did whenever a YPG meeting took place other than burnings. I remember going to a friend’s house for a YPG “meeting” and we would just burn what we deemed to be worldly possessions (continuation of a practice that started in Irvine 1987). This, again, not a bad thing if done from the right heart. In fact, a very good thing if done from the proper heart and with the right conviction from Christ. What we did was so far removed from that. It was all a show. By the Lord’s grace, He gave me the eventual understanding and discernment (and strength) to leave the LR/LC completely by around 1990. Because the LC had given me my source of identity and the only place I had ever known in terms of a community, it took me a while to fully walk away, but I eventually did. It was extremely difficult and painful, to say the least. Painful in human terms, but of course, it was the right and necessary thing to do. Ultimately, the Lord led me out because of His grace and mercy. Having said all this, however……in some ways, I feel this is not totally a “lived happily ever after” story, unfortunately. Although my walk with Christ has deepened tremendously after leaving the LC, there were enough good experiences/memories I had while in the LC (prior to 1986) that has left part of my soul longing for some of those things. Especially since these are things that I have not experienced in the churches I have been a part of since I left the LC, or at least not to the level I experienced in the LC. Things like open and corporate singing, prayer, participation in sharing, etc. And, even some of the rich exposition of the Word. To me, they were definitely a foretaste of what heaven must be like, and because of that, I miss it dearly and long for it. Which is, in a broad sense, I guess sort of the underlying theme of my nick/handle. We, who are in Christ, in so many ways “long for a better country”, like those in Hebrews 11. On earth, even at its best, we still sigh and groan in many ways. And that’s to be expected. I also grieve with the fact that I lost communication with many people I still care about deeply. And, even if there is some occasion that causes our paths to cross, fellowship is difficult, primarily because of the belief by LC members that those outside the LR/LC are lost or rebellious, and some would even say, unsaved. The feeling for me (when I see someone from the LC) is like attending a family reunion, but not being able to connect with anyone. Some may treat by shunning. Or, others may treat me with kindness, but in a pitied way. If only I could just have genuine heart-to-heart conversations, about life and about Christ. Most of all though, regarding the LR/LC, the feelings of sorrow I still have pertain mostly to this — I grieve for those who are still trapped in the system and especially those who know they should leave, but for some reason, feel they cannot. I personally know some in such a situation currently. Hopefully, for them, in some mysterious way, perhaps the Lord can even use my testimony as an encouragement.

11-11-2022, 08:56 PM	#2
countmeworthy Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: in Spirit & in Truth Posts: 1,376	Re: Church kid from the 80s (Anaheim) Hi bettercountry, I was quite moved by your testimony/ experience in the LC/LR. I totally agree that before the 80s, the Spirit of the Lord was strong and the fellowship among the saints was enjoyable, nurturing and sweet. I got saved in 1975 through brothers at work who were in the church in San Diego. We were a “young peoples church”. Most of us in our early twenties. By late 1977, early 1978, I felt the Spirit of the Lord departing. We boasted on not being legalistic, but by 1977, all the “good” brothers were wearing white shirts, skinny ties and super short hair. That’s how we identified a “good brother”. Most “good” sisters wore doilies at the meetings. Then came the change from “ Sunday” to “the Lord’s day”. Don’t get caught saying “Sunday” or you’d get bombarded with “O lord Jesus” from every direction. Then we became “the Lord’s Recovery”. I don’t think that bothered me as much as saying “the Lord’s day”, since all the days of the week are named after pagan idols. Such legalism. I slowly started breaking away by 1978. By 1980 I was completely out and like you…it was tough but the Holy Spirit of Jesus got me through. I remember going to a few meetings in Anaheim and boy did I strain my ears to understand Lee speak. (To be fair, I have to strain my ears to understand my Vietnamese next door neighbors speak too. You know what I miss about the LC back in the day, the psalms and the tunes to the Word of God. I wonder if the still sing the psalms. No matter…I still do. I hope you are doing well. __________________ Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be *accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass,* and to stand before the Son of man. (Luke 21:36)

11-12-2022, 10:59 AM	#6
countmeworthy Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: in Spirit & in Truth Posts: 1,376	Re: Church kid from the 80s (Anaheim) Amen Nell. I agree wholeheartedly. Thank you both for sharing. God bless and protect us all. __________________ Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be *accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass,* and to stand before the Son of man. (Luke 21:36)

11-12-2022, 02:36 PM	#7
bettercountry Member Join Date: Nov 2022 Posts: 26	Re: Church kid from the 80s (Anaheim) Nell - Absolutely agree with your point about truth. When the pure and unadulterated truth of GOD is spoken (which is actually the only real truth in the universe), then it is always glorious. The person who speaks/conveys the truth is so secondary. The important part is the truth itself, because it speaks of God. And if the Spirit of that true God resides IN US, we will be able to discern and affirm the things that are true. So, yes, when the Lord revealed certain truths to WL and others in the LC during my time there, it was something that was simply precious. The level of insight and the richness was so wonderful. So, my stance about the LC is that I’m not going to throw out the baby with the bath-water. On a sad note, it was interesting to see the effects that happened to the young people in Anaheim when WL and the LC started its stark deviation from the truth in the 80s. Some left Christianity at large. Others may have continued to attend meetings, but gradually started to immerse themselves more in the things of the world. One experience I had that scarred me….even to this day….is attending a gathering of young people (and some serving ones) at a home….and it was essentially a worldly party. Drinking and dancing. No fellowship, nothing spiritual at all. Seeing my one-time junior high leader participate in the drinking, etc…really shook me up. I stood off to the side with a few others and watched in amazement and horror as we wondered, “where are we???” and “who are these people that we thought we knew???”. The point is, whenever anyone (individual-level or corporate/church) deviates from the truth, you will eventually see its ugly “fruit”.

11-14-2022, 09:24 AM	#10
Trapped Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 1,523	Re: Church kid from the 80s (Anaheim) Welcome to the forum, bettercountry! Thanks for sharing your testimony - what a journey! Can I ask a question (of you or anyone) that has bugged me for a while? Hope this doesn't hit anyone wrong; I'm just trying to understand. I'm a church kid and my personal view is that the local church has been damaging for the entire time I was in it. However, I hear many people waxing nostalgic over their time in the local church in the 1970s, about how free and flowing and wonderful a time it was. What I don't understand is I have come across people who were in OTHER groups around that time who also say the same thing. Is it appropriate at all to chalk some of this atmosphere up to the charismatic movement and the Jesus movement of the 1960s and 1970s, as opposed to some particular specialness of the local church that some seem to still be waiting on to relive again? I'm not asking in order to deny anyone's feelings. I'm just asking because I'm trying to square away if the local church was rotten from the start or not. It doesn't line up with what I have read in the ministry or of what I have heard of Witness Lee's character and destruction prior to coming to the U.S. that the local church would ever have been considered a pure or good group to join, even if it might have felt good at the time. I just wonder if the euphoric happiness people report having back then was just unawareness of what was really going on, etc... It's striking to me that many people still seem to be wishing for what they had 50 years ago, and I'm just trying to understand if the standard they are wishing for is the standard the Bible sets forth. I mean, I can think of numerous enjoyable times I had with the young people and trips we went on and lots of time in various saints homes, etc.....but it's like it all became fake and deceptive as I saw the truth about what was really going on. The constant "open homes" for example, actually has some destructive elements because it meant that family boundaries were not respected by saints. Open homes are wonderful for students and floating saints, but very difficult for the couples who have the open home that is invaded and who basically have a stream of people using them day after day. So, as much as I liked it sometimes, I wouldn't pine for that kind of open home situation again because I now know that it was an unhealthy set up in the local church, etc. Although, as I say all that, I am reminded that numerous times when I interact with people at the church I now attend, at the end of the conversation I am always waiting internally to get that "lunch invite" that happened so often in the LC.....and it usually never comes anymore. The LC had more of a "doing life together" vibe, which was really nice, but again, too often it meant that spouses and kids were being neglected as a consequence. And I'm not sure how much of it is just the love bombing to keep you trapped in with the social connections so you can't leave, or how much of it is real. However real it is, though, is entirely predicated on your acceptance of Witness Lee and his doctrines, so....love based on the acceptance of lies isn't real love. I can't sort it all out. Anyway, thanks for any insight. Trapped

11-14-2022, 02:26 PM	#12
bettercountry Member Join Date: Nov 2022 Posts: 26	Re: Church kid from the 80s (Anaheim) Trapped - I think the heart of the question you raise is excellent and a very fair point. My initial response would be that there were most certainly elements of what you're saying (e.g. charismatic movement of the general era) that play into some of my nostalgia. However, for me at least, I know it goes far deeper than that. Over the years, I have gone through a similar personal exercise numerous times of trying to separate the sheer emotional aspects of what I miss versus the more meaningful spiritual reasons. And, what I've come away with -- and with much personal clarity -- is that the heart of what I long for (and what is absent for the most part in Christianity at large) are the deep spiritual TRUTHS (yes, we must weed through and decipher from the many lies/heresies) that I came to know in the LC, as well as the freedom in Christ for all members to freely participate, whether in small or large settings. Let me give you an example of what I mean by the deeper spiritual truths. At the risk of offending many members/readers of this forum, I will say that there are many hymns in the LC hymnal, even many that were written by WL, that contain rich truths. Some examples would be "In the holiest place", "Gracious Lord, Thy Name, 'I AM' is", "I've found the One of peerless worth". Precious TRUTHS about who GOD/CHRIST is. No glory in what I'm saying goes to WL. It all goes to God Himself, because the truths that are spoken of in those hymns (just an example) are FACTS about who He is. This is also an example of what I meant in my initial post about not throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Humanly, whenever we come to see/know anyone that does something as egregious as WL did, especially from the mid-80s onward (but, yes, even before that timeframe), it's natural and maybe excusable to dismiss ALL of what that person did/said. But, sorry, I can never agree with that stance. We all are unrighteous to some degree, and no matter what degree that is, that means we all don't deserve ANYONE listening to ANY of us about ANYTHING. So, what does that leave us with? Unless we come to the ability to look beyond the person (with all his/her flaws) and just look for truths, then we will be prone to live out the rest of our days in the "monastery" of our own pride. Of course, there are cases where certain individuals should be totally shunned, but for me.....WL is not in that category, specifically some of the things that were taught prior to the 80s. Again, I know I'm ruffling a LOT of feathers here, and I really don't want to get into this argument. Point is, even with those simple examples of the hymns I mentioned -- which if you carefully read the lyrics -- are not necessarily tremendously deep in terms of Christian doctrine, but.....unfortunately, at least in the churches I have been a part of in the past 30+ years, nothing even comes close to something like that. Anyway, I am not very eloquent, so most likely, the heart of what I'm trying to say is being poorly communicated.

11-14-2022, 10:18 PM	#15
Just Saying Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Church kid from the 80s (Anaheim) I hate to spoil the party of 1960s, 70s and 80s, but there is nothing that speaks more louder than the culture and the social environment of those days. Starting with the hippie movement, the sex movement, the transcendental meditation movement (promoted and displayed by Beatles and other big time celebrities), the local church became infested with the world beyond any possible realms. It was cool to be “drunk with the spirit”, be seeking a living by sight rather than faith. The charismatic, experienced based reality was blinding people especially in the “Sodom and Gomorrah” of our times, which is the state of California, where Recovery originated from. Let’s be real here, Witness Lee would have been run out of every town with the tail between his legs, if he went and spoke at some true Christian Bible believing town in the USA at that time. San Francisco? Southern California? Wow! Great spots to introduce jesus that gets your feeling flowing, your heart pumping at the assurance of the fact that you are “the people “, you are “ tha church”! You are the few, the select, the only expression of God in the USA! So if you think that that time wasn’t what the people are still searching for, long for, before they got figured out by other Christian to be nothing but a counterfeit, then please proceed to wax poetically about it. Claim as it was some special time of the spirit flowing, rather that calling it for what it was, a delusional way to fit in the society that was seeking to achieve the experience of God by any way necessary, including by branding all other Christian groups as dead religion, whore of Babylon, make yourselves feel as if you have arrived at the heights of the revelation of “the New Testament church”, and I can go on and on. There isn’t anything real there now or was there anything real at anytime, nether here in the USA or elsewhere in the world as these man claims to have had. Sorry for bursting bubbles, but there is nothing that’s there to be proud of, IF you honest and genuine about it, as a former member of the LC. My opinion, my belief, and my assessment of the movement that I gave more than quarter of my life too, and spent quite some time studying after my exit. Anyone can pick at things in the current form of churches, and I’m in the same boat as most people commented here, but I rather be there, than be at the altar of men, who have done and shown nothing but who they truly are, a counterfeit group, absent of any kind of true fruits of the Spirit, having a form of godliness but denying its power. Thanks