No Place Like Hell

[manna-man]

Hell...
A very misunderstood concept.

Is Hell real or a word used to steer one's consideration to the actual truth about the seriousness of sin and its consequence?

Is hell a place of eternal torment or a word to describe one's end as being discarded like trash and a complete and total end of an era for those who reject Salvation?

I believe I hold the answer to this question but was stirred to ask because of the link at the top of the LCD main page titled:Hell Don't Go There (John Myer)

Yes...I took the bait.
I hope this discussion opens up eyes here and everywhere.

Do you believe hell is eternal torment? What do you believe?
Whatever you believe, speaks volumes of what you believe about God's character.

[SpeakersCorner]

John 3:16 poses two outcomes and neither is Hell.

[Timotheist]

Rev. poses four outcomes, and none of them are Hell.

[SpeakersCorner]

Ecclesiastes poses one outcome and it is vanity.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by manna-man

I believe I hold the answer to this question but was stirred to ask because of the link at the top of the LCD main page titled:Hell Don't Go There (John Myer)
Whatever you believe, speaks volumes of what you believe about God's character.

I think it would be fair that anyone who wants to participate in this thread actually listen to the entire message given by John Myer. You can find it here: - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxK8994T-qE

I think manna-man's quip "Whatever you believe, speaks volumes of what you believe about God's character" is really insightful, and maybe gets to the real heart of the matter.

Who are we to judge God? Who are we to question any of his ways, his choices, his actions, his character? Jesus clearly stated that Hell was a real, physical, actual place. He also clearly stated that Hell is "the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41) Hell has a purpose, and this purpose was chosen by God long before man ever existed. Hell was not "created" for man, it was created for the devil and his angels. Yet anyone who choses the devil and his angels as their god will ultimately end up with them in the place prepared by God.

I was reminded about something I read a long time ago by Charles Spurgeon.

"Do not imagine for an instant that I pretend to be able thoroughly to elucidate the great mysteries of predestination. There are some men who claim to know all about the matter. They twist it round their fingers as easily as if it were an everyday thing; but depend upon it, he who thinks he knows all about this mystery, knows but very little."
"The truth is, neither you nor I have any right to want to know more about predestination than what God tells us. That is enough for us."
Charles Spurgeon Jacob and Esau New Park Street Pulpit January 16, 1859

Our Lord Jesus clearly and strongly warned his followers (and anyone else listening) about Hell. He also preached the Gospel of the Kingdom. Heaven and Hell are actually just two different kingdoms - each with it's own king. And each kingdom will be eternal. If you are reading this, hopefully you have been "delivered from the domain of darkness and transferred to the kingdom of his beloved Son" (Col 1:13)
-

[manna-man]

The word hell never existed until new testament times.
If there is a hell then nobody dies. Death is a joke and there will be two types of life in eternity. This cannot be so. One life enjoying eternal bliss and the other eternal torment.

The scriptures are very clear. Read Ezekiel 18. The soul who sins shall die.(period)
The soul who turns and does what is right will be rewarded with eternal life.
Genesis..."Partake and you shall surely die."
People minimize death as if it's a cheat from responsility. This couldn't be further from the truth. To be lost in death is great loss!

Now...Let's get to the meat.

In Gods foreknowledge, plan to create beings which would eventually be tormented forever and ever? I'd have to argue that even mere humans have enough intellectual wisdom to understand the cruelty of such a judgement. This is exactly 360° opposite of what we learn of Him.
I'll pipe down for a bit but first I'll ask a question.
What kind of Monster do some believe?

Ask and it shall be given, seek and ye shall find....
Judge God by no means! Question what bothers you!!!��


Peace...

[manna-man]

Eternal life is a gift/reward.

I know...Tough subject. Most people can't deal with it...kinda like death.

[SpeakersCorner]

@UntoHim

So Spurgeon once wrote "The truth is, neither you nor I have any right to want to know more about predestination than what God tells us. That is enough for us"?

Well, maybe had Job written it I'd accept it on face value. He earned it. Spurgeon ... not so much. I always reject this kind of thinking/attitude. It's a kind of authoritarianism: "'Shut up!' I'm explaining."

Nah. God wants us to look into the deepest things. Admittedly, we see through the welder's mask but we do see something and it's worth exploring. The Wise Men looked deeply into the night sky and saw a glint that led them past the Spurgeons of the day to Christ's house.

[UntoHim]

Speaker,
Sometimes I wonder if you actually read through an entire post before commenting. It seems you are intent upon finding something you can vehemently disagree with, isolate that one phrase or word, and then just let loose with both barrels. On another thread, just today, you bemoaned about the lack of "respect discourse" on the forum. Really bro?

Spurgeon: "The truth is, neither you nor I have any right to want to know more about predestination than what God tells us. (emphasis given)

Speaker's knee-jerk interpretation of Spurgeon: "Shut up!' I'm explaining."

God wants us to look into the deepest things.

So "what God tells us" is not good enough for you, my friend? Exactly where is one to find these "deepest things"?

The Wise Men looked deeply into the night sky and saw a glint that led them past the Spurgeons of the day to Christ's house.

We should be so lucky and blessed that God would provide such fantastical signs and wonders for us today. For now, I guess we're just stuck with the Bible. Just sayin...
-

PS: In my post I actually gave the reference for anyone who was really interested in knowing the full context of Spurgeon's message:
Charles Spurgeon Jacob and Esau New Park Street Pulpit January 16, 1859
-

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by manna-man

Eternal life is a gift/reward.

I know...Tough subject. Most people can't deal with it...kinda like death.

It is a tough subject!

Steve Gregg did a very thoughtful and well researched book on the subject called, "Hell - Three Christian views of God's final solution to the problem of sin."

3 Views of Hell Book at Amazon

Steve Gregg lecture on 3 Views of Hell

Steve Gregg Q&A on Hell (FYI - audience questions not so clear)

The 3 views of Hell presented are:
1. Traditionalism - eternal conscious torment (promoted by Augustine)
2. Annihilationism - soul is no more (possibly after a period of torment)
3. Universalism - all eventually restored (possibly after a period of torment)

Steve goes into church history quite a bit, regarding these three views, and painstakingly breaks-down scripture for each of these view. His stated goal is just to present these views and not to draw his own conclusions. I found it a very fascinating read, to say the least - I would highly recommend it for anyone wanting to really dive into what the word says on this topic, and to also get an understanding of how these views came about.

Personally, I lean toward something of a mix of these . . .

I can't say I know for sure what hell is all about, so I just tell others, "Whatever it is, the bottom-line is this - IT'S NOT GOOD and therefore is something to avoid at all costs! And the only way to do that is salvation through Jesus Christ!"

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by manna-man

The word hell never existed until new testament times.
If there is a hell then nobody dies. Death is a joke and there will be two types of life in eternity. This cannot be so. One life enjoying eternal bliss and the other eternal torment.

The scriptures are very clear. Read Ezekiel 18. The soul who sins shall die.(period)
The soul who turns and does what is right will be rewarded with eternal life.
Genesis..."Partake and you shall surely die."
People minimize death as if it's a cheat from responsility. This couldn't be further from the truth. To be lost in death is great loss!

Now...Let's get to the meat.

In Gods foreknowledge, plan to create beings which would eventually be tormented forever and ever? I'd have to argue that even mere humans have enough intellectual wisdom to understand the cruelty of such a judgement. This is exactly 360° opposite of what we learn of Him.
I'll pipe down for a bit but first I'll ask a question.
What kind of Monster do some believe?

Ask and it shall be given, seek and ye shall find....
Judge God by no means! Question what bothers you!!!��

Peace...

This is not a topic I've gotten into deeply, but have dug into just a little bit in passing. What stuck with me was reading Matthew 10:28 -

And you should not be afraid of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. Indeed rather you should fear the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

I assumed that the death of the body is what we all mean by death, and that the death of the soul was what the Bible means by "the second death" in Revelation 20 and Revelation 21:

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Obviously if both the body and soul are destroyed, and this is the fate of all those who continue on in unrepentant sin, then existence ceases......at least as I understand it. Can someone exist without even a soul? Not that I've heard.

But where did the concept of unending torture come from? As in, what verses do people use to support that thought?

Trapped

[SpeakersCorner]

@UntoHim

Actually I did read all your post. But I admit, sometimes I react ... the troll in me sometimes gets the better of me.

As for dissing Spurgeon, I don't really have much against him -- my dad, a Baptist preacher, loved him and a brother in my fellowship does as well -- but he strikes me as too much of a wordsmith. I'm not a fan of wordsmithery. Seems fake.

I do stand by my point that the Spurgeon quote you cited has a Shut Up, He Explained ring to it. I chafe whenever someone cautions me against going outside the orthodoxy. As for predestination, what the Bible says about it directly is helpful and what it implies even more so. I truly believe in contradicitons, or at least, apparent contradictions. We are predestinated, we are free. I have told fellow saints in my life this: "If you weren't predestinated, demand God do it now!" I cite the woman pestering the unrighteous judge.

One last point: you know as well as I do that the trinity is not spelled out in scripture, yet it is at the core of orthodoxy. That fact alone should soften arguments of the sort, "If the Bible says it I believe it, if it doesn't, I don't."

[SpeakersCorner]

@UntoHim

I forgot to address another point you made: "So what God tells us" is not good enough for you, my friend? Exactly where is one to find these "deepest things"?

How about the natural world? Doesn't it speak? Paul said it does in Romans. How about the church? Doesn't it speak? I hear the voice of Christ rising from the congregation.

The Wise Men vs. Scribes story that W. Lee shed great light on ("Finding Christ By the Living Star") is a repudiation of Sola Scriptura, imho. The ones with the verses not only didn't attend Christ's birth, they were complicit in the killing of hundreds of young boys related to it.

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Jesus clearly stated that Hell was a real, physical, actual place. He also clearly stated that Hell is "the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41) Hell has a purpose, and this purpose was chosen by God long before man ever existed. Hell was not "created" for man, it was created for the devil and his angels. Yet anyone who choses the devil and his angels as their god will ultimately end up with them in the place prepared by God.
-

If we are going to rehash this topic yet once again, I think we should try to agree that much of the confusion about "Hell" is that the KJV refers to TWO PLACES as Hell:

1) "Fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in Hell"

2) "Hell gave up the dead in it" and "Hell was thrown into the Lake of Fire"

But there should be no confusion: the first place is 'Gehenna' and the second place is 'Hades' in the Greek texts.

To use UntoHim's words, "clearly" these are two different "places". One can destroy a soul, the other is a soul-holder for judgement day.

So can we please agree to distinguish between Hades and Gehenna when we use the word "Hell" in these discussions? For my sanity's sake, if nothing else?

I hope that we can also agree that 'Gehenna' and the 'Lake of Fire' are synonyms. The LOF is where the soul is destroyed. So Hades will be thrown into Gehenna after the final resurrection.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Our Lord Jesus clearly and strongly warned his followers (and anyone else listening) about Hell. He also preached the Gospel of the Kingdom. Heaven and Hell are actually just two different kingdoms - each with it's own king. And each kingdom will be eternal. If you are reading this, hopefully you have been "delivered from the domain of darkness and transferred to the kingdom of his beloved Son" (Col 1:13)
-

Sorry, UntoHim, but I must issue a challenge to your statement in boldface. Where does it say that Satan is either the "king" of Hades, or the "king" of Gehenna?

The scripture says that Satan is the "ruler of this world". We are currently citizens in Satan's kingdom whilst we are alive. (Unless you are referring to this world as "hell". which would be a third "place" )

One of my peeves is when I hear that the Gates of Hades (Hell in the KJV) refers to Satan's Kingdom. I suggest that Jesus ALWAYS had the keys to the gates of Hades. He did not take them away from Satan, as is commonly described in today's folklore, in which "hell" is a place where Satan tortures the souls of those he owns.