YouTube Channel - The Lord's Recovery Unchained

New YouTube Channel - The Lord's Recovery Unchained

Testing Witness Lee's teachings against the Bible. Like the Bible tells us to do.

Intro video here: https://youtu.be/QzzegsmM8hU

Other videos here [best sorted by "date added (oldest)"]: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCE7...EazzYjw/videos

[Bible-believer]

I've shared the channel with friends, and I hope it will be a wake-up call for them.
By the way, a brother who is a department chairman in college told me that his students asked him why they read "messages" instead of the Bible itself in every meeting. All of them agree the focus should be on God and His words.

[GraceAlone]

Fantastic video. Huge kudos to the producer!!! I really hope it gains some traction beyond the “choir.”

Thank you! I hope it will be helpful both for those inside as well as out.

I set it up so the next video in the series would auto-pop-up at the end of the prior video, but I've had a few people indicate it's not working for them and that they cannot see the other videos after the intro. Here is the link to the entire playlist:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzze...ejEdDNtUs4UDn8

[UntoHim]

hope this helps,

The UserName Recovery Unchained has been reserved for your posting privileges on this forum. Even if you are a registered member we are requesting that you set up a separate UserName.

Please send an email to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com for temporary password.

Thanks!
UntoHim and Nell
Forum Admins
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[Recovering]

Originally Posted by hope this helps

Thank you! I hope it will be helpful both for those inside as well as out.

I set it up so the next video in the series would auto-pop-up at the end of the prior video, but I've had a few people indicate it's not working for them and that they cannot see the other videos after the intro. Here is the link to the entire playlist:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzze...ejEdDNtUs4UDn8

Dear Unchained, it's evident you've put a lot of work into these videos. Thank you so much! I've [I don't know if enjoyed is exactly the right word, maybe benefited from or resonated with or appreciated is the right expression] hearing your clearly-articulated testing of various WL teachings. It was the Two Trees that shocked me into questioning things in WL's writings almost two years ago. I started my own test of what WL said the Bible says in The Genuine Ground of Oneness versus what is actually in the Bible. That basically caused me to lose faith in "The Ministry", to realize that I was trapped by a wrong concept of "locality" as the ground of oneness and feel the freedom to leave. I hope your videos can help others experience the same thing.

On that note, you could have field day with The Genuine Ground of Oneness. What does WL say happened at Babel versus what's in Genesis? What does WL say happened when Israel and Judah split versus what's in the Bible? etc. I have study notes on the first few chapters. DM me if you would like a copy.

[Cal]

Great stuff! I love the engaging videos and the messages are on point and well-spoken. Thanks for doing this.

[Cal]

For broader outreach, I suggest joining the Facebook group "Former Members of the Local Church" and posting links to your videos there. Membership is by approval only.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/764718357071498/

[HERn]

Really well done! You didn’t make a single stumble in the presentations, and you are the right kind of person to make these because you really know the Recovery and use the Bible in an excellent way to support your arguments. Do you have a user name so I can send you a note sometime? Your material goes really well with a Cal’s. How long were you in the Recovery and what prompted you to doubt the Recovery’s legitimacy? If these questions are too personal please ignore them.

The number one problem with the Recovery and why it’s a fake religion, is that there is ZERO LOVE! You can fake everything including the spirit and the church, the ministry and the buildings, the fake crocodile tears and the childish tantrums to get someone to feel bad for you! But there is one thing that no one was ever able to fake, and that the LOVE OF GOD, if one has never experienced it, and it never changed your life, you will never be able to show it or practically display it for people to see! Mr Benson chanting of “just come back”, should turn to “Lord, be merciful to me”, and maybe, just maybe the results will be different!

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The number one problem with the Recovery and why it’s a fake religion, is that there is ZERO LOVE!

Well, it’s hard to know what is deep in the human heart. Further, there is some love demonstrated in the LR … I mean, this very forum and its predecessor often accused the LCers of throwing “love bombs” at newbies.

That said, I think love diminishes when one becomes ideological. Check that: I *know* love diminishes when one becomes ideological. The LR, despite efforts by Lee to not become just a “truth” church, couldn’t help but bend that way. I have the same tendency. I think it’s a man thing … ideas over people.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Well, it’s hard to know what is deep in the human heart. Further, there is some love demonstrated in the LR … I mean, this very forum and its predecessor often accused the LCers of throwing “love bombs” at newbies.

That said, I think love diminishes when one becomes ideological. Check that: I *know* love diminishes when one becomes ideological. The LR, despite efforts by Lee to not become just a “truth” church, couldn’t help but bend that way. I have the same tendency. I think it’s a man thing … ideas over people.

A "truth" church? That's the last word I would use to describe what "Lee's church" became.

I hope everyone spends some time with the LR Unchained videos. Lee's truth church is totally exposed...Biblically.


Nell

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Well, it’s hard to know what is deep in the human heart. Further, there is some love demonstrated in the LR … I mean, this very forum and its predecessor often accused the LCers of throwing “love bombs” at newbies.

That said, I think love diminishes when one becomes ideological. Check that: I *know* love diminishes when one becomes ideological. The LR, despite efforts by Lee to not become just a “truth” church, couldn’t help but bend that way. I have the same tendency. I think it’s a man thing … ideas over people.

Just because the phrase "love-bomb" has the word "love" in it, does not mean it bears any resemblance to actual love. Love is not full of lies, double-speak, and deceptive intent, which is what the local church love-bombing is.

I also second Nell's disagreement that the local church is a "truth" church. It's insulting to the truth to associate the two in any way.

Trapped

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by Nell

Lee's truth church is totally exposed...Biblically.

You misunderstood, intentionally or not, what I meant by "truth" church. I put it in air-quotes to help you but perhaps you're not familiar with how air-quotes work.

At any rate, if you think some video series showing how the LR is anti-biblical is going to convince anyone but the ones who need no convincing, you're living in a dream world.

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Just because the phrase "love-bomb" has the word "love" in it, does not mean it bears any resemblance to actual love. Love is not full of lies, double-speak, and deceptive intent, which is what the local church love-bombing is. I also second Nell's disagreement that the local church is a "truth" church. It's insulting to the truth to associate the two in any way. Trapped

I seriously thought this site, as opposed to the Berean one, was for respectful discourse between those in and those out of the LC. Seems I was mistaken.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

I seriously thought this site, as opposed to the Berean one, was for respectful discourse between those in and those out of the LC. Seems I was mistaken.

Disagreement is not disrespect. I'm not sure how you got disrespect from what I wrote. It is true that love-bombing as a tactic is behavior that carries ulterior motive, which is not really love, and to view it as some kind of actual love legitimizes deception. It is true that the local church is not in any way a partner with the truth. It is not a disrespect to you to make those statements. Your putting air quotes around truth, but then saying the local church bent that way is not clear in any way what you mean without some explanation. Happy to hear what you meant to say.

Trapped

[Recovering]

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

Yes, and not just the Andersons, but plenty of others’ stories are available both online and, if invited, through personal conversations if someone were willing to listen. That lack of curiosity or willingness to hear is part of the hurt.

Reading what Recovering described made me grateful that a friend had just sent me the following podcast episode on spiritual abuse and healing from it. It’s excellent.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcas...=1000521464840

GraceAlone thanks for posting that podcast. I listened, and it felt like they'd had a front row to my experience (and others I know) and helped provide some language to articulate what we've been through. It also changed my perspective on Ben's exhortation to "come back".

[Nell]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

You misunderstood, intentionally or not, what I meant by "truth" church. I put it in air-quotes to help you but perhaps you're not familiar with how air-quotes work.

At any rate, if you think some video series showing how the LR is anti-biblical is going to convince anyone but the ones who need no convincing, you're living in a dream world.

SC,

Well, so much for "respectful discourse." (air quotes) Respect is a two-way street. Right?

Disagreeing with your POV is allowed. I read what you wrote and disagreed with it out loud, as did Trapped. The End.

I think you should watch the videos before making assumptions about who will and will not benefit from the hearing, since you don't speak for "anyone" but yourself (see...more air quotes!) Will you do that?

Nell

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

At any rate, if you think some video series showing how the LR is anti-biblical is going to convince anyone but the ones who need no convincing, you're living in a dream world.

I beg to differ. The biblical truth spoken everywhere - in those videos or in Cal's videos or in Jacob Howard's posts or on this forum - is indeed a powerful force against the lies and darkness in the local church. Additionally, all of these voices speaking out are not simply showing that the local church is anti-biblical, they are showing it is abusive, damaging, manipulative, and deceiving. To be sure, if your statement was true, then the countless people in other cultish groups who have found comparable help from similar videos about their groups are lying.

Trapped

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

Yes, and not just the Andersons, but plenty of others’ stories are available both online and, if invited, through personal conversations if someone were willing to listen. That lack of curiosity or willingness to hear is part of the hurt.

Reading what Recovering described made me grateful that a friend had just sent me the following podcast episode on spiritual abuse and healing from it. It’s excellent.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcas...=1000521464840

I listened to this podcast too. The interviewee obviously knows what she is talking about, and she basically nails it in every direction. She puts words to some things that I intuitively knew but didn't have adequate words to describe. It's about 45 minutes. Highly recommended.

Trapped

[SpeakersCorner]

@Nell

Sorry for being a bit “snippety.” I got “triggered.” And you’re right, Nell, respect is a two-way street. I may actually watch the video. Definitely don’t mind hearing other points of view. I might even agree with some or much of it.

[SpeakersCorner]

@Trapped

My point is that every single teaching or doctrine can be refuted in some way by opponents. Go to Wikipedia and witness it in real time. To decide if the LR and Lee’s teaching are faulty you need both sides presented in a debate format. Anything short of that is just an argument.

[Recovering]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

@Trapped

My point is that every single teaching or doctrine can be refuted in some way by opponents. Go to Wikipedia and witness it in real time. To decide if the LR and Lee’s teaching are faulty you need both sides presented in a debate format. Anything short of that is just an argument.

SpeakersCorner it's been said before that statistics, if tortured enough, will confess to anything. And the other day I heard someone say the same thing about Bible verses. It's true that if you cherry-pick your verses and gerrymander the context sufficiently, you can construct cases to support a wide variety of conflicting interpretations of Scripture.

But I count myself among those here who have been very impressed by the Recovery Unchained videos and don't see them as "just another opinion" but rather what they claim to be - a testing of different teachings against Scripture. In my perception, they do a good job of presenting a teaching in Lee's own (or in the Blended Brothers') words, showing it in context and in multiple publications where appropriate and in terms that anyone in TLR would recognize. What's so delightful (and embarrassing to those of us who internalized the teachings for so many years) is that a reading of the verses cited and a simple application of logic or grammar is often sufficient to unravel the whole thing. It's really not a debate about this view or that view; it's about whether the teaching makes sense in its own terms and with respect to the verses used to support it (or conveniently left out).

My "trigger moment" was a theological one related to the "Two Trees" doctrine. The Recovery Unchained videos on that topic (at least the first 2 I have watched, there are 5) are particularly good. I imagine if someone I trusted had pointed me to the videos during my struggling period, I would probably have seen my way to an exit sooner. I see the target audience as being those who have doubts and are struggling like I was.

@Nell we've gotten off the original topic, so maybe this belongs in the thread on the videos.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Recovering

. . . It's true that if you cherry-pick your verses and gerrymander the context sufficiently, you can construct cases to support a wide variety of conflicting interpretations of Scripture. . . .

My years of "careful study" of so many of the LRC teachings is that context was seldom on the mind of Nee or Lee (or the minions that have followed). Words — without context — seem to be fertile ground for creating one golden calf after another. It is better to remove the context. Study only one little fortune cookie at a time. Then throw those words in the fire and out comes another golden calf. Reveal it to your listeners in the midst of well-known phrases that always get lots of "amens" and they won't even notice that initial nagging question when you finally make your next ridiculous claim. At that point, the tsunami of "amens" will wash away any chance for the question to resurface later.

At least that's the way I recall it working in Lee's favor.

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by Recovering

My "trigger moment" was a theological one related to the "Two Trees" doctrine.

You've piqued my interest. Where is this Two Trees point made? What video?

[Recovering]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

You've piqued my interest. Where is this Two Trees point made? What video?

The first of the Two Trees series is [here]. A few more clicks will take you to the rest of the channel.

[SpeakersCorner]

Okay, I found the Two Trees video and I'm two minutes into it and thinking WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP. Really. Sorry but he has twisted Lee's words completely. He says that Lee taught that man should only eat of the Tree of Life but that's not at all what he taught. Lee never denied the other trees were for eating. I fear you'll force me to go back to a Life-Study and prove my point but I KNOW he never thought nor taught that.

Further, the narrator says Lee taught that the Tree of Life was alone in the center of the garden. Did he teach that? I don't recall. But I am very doubtful Lee didn't know there is a verse -- spoken by Eve, btw, -- that states the tree of knowledge was in the "midst" of the garden.

This is actually a point I have long cherished. They both were there, perhaps side by side. Perhaps the tree of life, a vine-tree according to Lee's thought in Revelation, actually climbed upon the Tree of Knowledge. We can all speculate. At any rate, I'm not 100% positive we can be sure that the Tree of Knowledge was in fact in the center of the garden since it was Eve, not God, who said it. And perhaps her "center" had already been adjusted.

[SpeakersCorner]

I'm still steaming from the first two minutes of this thing. Why doesn't this person SHOW US what Lee said instead of merely say that he said it? It's as if he's hiding something.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

I'm still steaming from the first two minutes of this thing. Why doesn't this person SHOW US what Lee said instead of merely say that he said it? It's as if he's hiding something.

The person literally does show and sources it.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

You misunderstood, intentionally or not, what I meant by "truth" church. I put it in air-quotes to help you but perhaps you're not familiar with how air-quotes work.

At any rate, if you think some video series showing how the LR is anti-biblical is going to convince anyone but the ones who need no convincing, you're living in a dream world.

Originally Posted by Nell

SC,
Well, so much for "respectful discourse." (air quotes) Respect is a two-way street. Right?

Disagreeing with your POV is allowed. I read what you wrote and disagreed with it out loud, as did Trapped. The End.

I think you should watch the videos before making assumptions about who will and will not benefit from the hearing, since you don't speak for "anyone" but yourself (see...more air quotes!) Will you do that?

Nell

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

@Nell
Sorry for being a bit “snippety.” I got “triggered.” And you’re right, Nell, respect is a two-way street. I may actually watch the video. Definitely don’t mind hearing other points of view. I might even agree with some or much of it.

SpeakersCorner,
Snippety? Your "sorry, not sorry" post was condescending, accusatory and rude.

I refer you to our forum Mission Statement Rules:
2. Respect other users. No flaming or abusing fellow forum members. ...
3. No spam. ... You created your own personal spam in the wrong topic.
4. Post in relevant sub-forums. Messages posted in the wrong topic area may be moved to the correct sub-forum by moderators.
...
9. One simple guideline should cover all your posts: Be helpful, polite, considerate, and respectful of others, just as you would like others to be to you.

You've been moderated.

Nell
Admin/Moderator

[SpeakersCorner]

Okay, I'm not going to hog the thread with my live reactions to this video. But I have finally reached a point that is good: this guy (I don't know who is doing this video) quotes Lee saying the title of the Tree of Knowledge is subtle because Satan likes to conceal himself. I did not remember Lee saying that and the burden is now on him and his defenders to explain this. I myself could defend Lee here but I'm not here to defend him and am not sure of the context in which he said this.

So I'm giving this guy a touche here, his first.

Now I'll stop commenting and leave you all in peace.

[SpeakersCorner]

Rebuttal to “The Lord’s Recovery, Unchained” video

1. In the midst of the garden
The first point the narrator makes is that Lee is deceptive when he says the Tree of Life is in the center of the garden. He quotes Lee five or six times saying the tree of life is the CENTER of the garden. Then he says, voice dripping with sarcasm: “So what’s the takeaway? There is a garden and in the center of the garden is the TREE OF LIFE. Sound good? Weeellllll … it’s not quite true. It is not really true that it is the tree of life that is the center of the garden.”

Really? You’re telling me that it isn’t true to say the tree of life is in the center of the garden? Take a look:

And out of the ground the LORD God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. [Genesis 2:9: NKJV]

Ah, you say … but what about the rest of the verse? That’s what the narrator says as well.

Well, what about it? Does adding “[comma] and the tree of knowledge of good and evil” change the fact that the tree of life is at the center of the garden? Of course not. It is true, indisputably and undeniably, that the tree of life is in the center of the garden according to the scripture. It may also be true the tree of knowledge of good and evil is there (and this is debated throughout Jewish and Christian literature) but one cannot deny that (I’ll say it again) THE TREE OF LIFE IS IN THE CENTER OF THE GARDEN.

Yet the narrator does deny it. He says “It’s not quite true” then “It is not really true that it is the tree of life that is the center of the garden.”

The narrator builds his entire argument on this broken cornerstone. He does it within the first 3 minutes of his video. He is telling us that it’s a false teaching to say the tree of life is in the center of the garden because there is another tree possibly next to it.

If I’m a judge and this is a trial, I dismiss it at this point.

[More to come]

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

It is true, indisputably and undeniably, that the tree of life is in the center of the garden according to the scripture.

It may also be true the tree of knowledge of good and evil is there (and this is debated throughout Jewish and Christian literature).

It is true, indisputably and undeniably, that the tree of knowledge of good and evil is in the center of the garden according to the scripture.

He is telling us that it’s a false teaching to say the tree of life is in the center of the garden because there is another tree possibly next to it.

The same bible that you are using as your authority to defend the argument of the ToL's location in the Garden, says that the TOKGAE is in the same location. Yet you don't accept that authority when it comes to the location TOKGAE, you say "It May" "Possibly".

Taking select portions of the bible as the foundation to build a case is exactly what these videos are exposing. Witness lee takes a portion of a verse in Genesis and builds an entire doctrine around that portion.

The majority of doctrinal pillars in the Lord's Recovery are built upon similar foundations, yet presented as THE truth. However, when you hold them up to what the biblical text says, the doctrines are often found wanting.

Witness Lee says the ToL is the center of the universe because it is the center of the garden. However, the TOKGAE is also at the center of the garden according to the bible. Does this mean that the TOKGAE is also the center of the universe? Why isn't the TOKGAE the center of the universe?

It's not incorrect to say the ToL is the center of the garden, but it's only a half-truth, as shown in the Bible. It's disingenuous to pick and choose when you're going to apply the bible as your source of truth. If a doctrine doesn't match up to what the biblical text says in full, do you follow the biblical text or do you try to fit the text into your doctrine? I think many in the LR fit the text into the doctrine, and many who have left are deconstructing the foundation these doctrines were built upon.

The reason that WL made a tree of life the center, and the only thing that you should eat of, is to later on equate his own “ministry” (I use that word lightly), to say that since it’s the only “ministry” that contains any life, THUS YOU SHOULD ONLY EAT OF IT. Trace those two aspects throughout his writings, and you will see it as clear as day! Since the All-inclusive Jesus is only present in the Local Church and the writings of WL/WN, and cannot be found anywhere else in the world, then eat only from THIS tree and you will have “life”. Got it? Get it? Done!

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The reason that WL made a tree of life the center, and the only thing that you should eat of, is to later on equate his own “ministry” (I use that word lightly), to say that since it’s the only “ministry” that contains any life, THUS YOU SHOULD ONLY EAT OF IT. Trace those two aspects throughout his writings, and you will see it as clear as day! Since the All-inclusive Jesus is only present in the Local Church and the writings of WL/WN, and cannot be found anywhere else in the world, then eat only from THIS tree and you will have “life”. Got it? Get it? Done!

Unregistered,

Welcome to the forum! Your point is so true. He taught the tree of life represents God Himself or God's life, and that God wants us to take Him in, and oh by the way that only Witness Lee's ministry has the correct life and light, so you must only follow his ministry if you want to be "in life". The threat is that if you don't, you are in darkness, in death.

There is a screen in the video that says something like "what God granted freedom for, and what God called good, instead Witness Lee restricted and condemned and called death". And then he says it explains many of the problems in the local church. One of the things I thought of when I saw that was exactly this - where the Bible says there are many ministers and certainly does NOT restrict believers to whatever only one guy says, Witness Lee restricts the saints to only his ministry and condemns everyone else as "having no new riches". It's ridiculous. So many of his erroneous teachings are actually completely self-serving for him, it's disgusting.

It is not a stretch to say he has cheated people of their lives with his lies.

Trapped

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

The narrator builds his entire argument on this broken cornerstone. He does it within the first 3 minutes of his video. He is telling us that it’s a false teaching to say the tree of life is in the center of the garden because there is another tree possibly next to it.

No, the entire argument is not on that cornerstone. That's where he starts out, but he then moves to Lee teaching that God wanted man to only eat of the tree of life and that "God charged man to eat the right tree", and that "anything that is not life results in death". None of those require that the TKGE is in the center, and all of those stand on their own two feet as false even if the initial argument is broken.

Trapped

[SpeakersCorner]

@Trapped

The video does eventually come around to admitting Lee placed both trees in the center or at least before Adam. But rather than admit that okay, maybe Lee didn’t preclude the TOK from the center, the narrator turns it into an occasion to mock Lee for inconsistency. At least that’s how I recall it (I’m sitting in a parking lot as I type this). This is not a good faith argument if, after claiming Lee said one thing you now admit well, maybe not quite then use that as an occasion to smear.

As for your other point about the command to eat only from the TOL I will respond later when I’m at a better venue.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

@Trapped

The video does eventually come around to admitting Lee placed both trees in the center or at least before Adam. But rather than admit that okay, maybe Lee didn’t preclude the TOK from the center, the narrator turns it into an occasion to mock Lee for inconsistency. At least that’s how I recall it (I’m sitting in a parking lot as I type this). This is not a good faith argument if, after claiming Lee said one thing you now admit well, maybe not quite then use that as an occasion to smear.

As for your other point about the command to eat only from the TOL I will respond later when I’m at a better venue.

SpeakersCorner, Lee taught two different things that are inconsistent with each other, and neither are right. Lee's statement that God placed man before two trees is also wrong. He was inconsistent, and wrong in all directions in that inconsistency.

The video says that Witness Lee taught that man was placed before one tree in the center. He did teach this, and he was wrong. You want the video to acknowledge that Witness Lee also taught something different, that God placed man before two trees, both possibly being in the center. But the video does acknowledge this, and notes that it's a problem because it makes his other prevalent contradictory teaching that it was just one tree all the more problematic. So they could acknowledge that but it would just be another way Lee was wrong. That different thing Lee taught is wrong too! Neither are what the Bible says.

The Bible doesn't say man was placed before one tree or before two trees. The Bible says man was placed in a garden. Are you able to admit that Witness Lee was wrong?

Trapped

P.S. hope this helps, have you hit-and-run posted? Your input is probably better than mine!

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by Trapped

The Bible doesn't say man was placed before one tree or before two trees. The Bible says man was placed in a garden. Are you able to admit that Witness Lee was wrong?

I'm willing to admit I disagree with Lee on a few minor points in his exegesis of the Eden story. I've already mentioned one: his failure to denote Eve's addition to God's command of "not to touch" the TOK. But in the main, I'm with him. I think the tree of life is the center -- the most meaningful item aside from Adam and Eve themselves in Eden. And I think Lee's view that it was eating wrongly, not disobeying, that is the real problem in the Fall is spot on. The video vehemently disagrees with this and I think they're wrong. The narrator really is just promoting the law, in my view. And boringly so. His takedown to me is very tedious and unenlightening. Along with that, I think Lee's illustration of the problem of a child drinking poison being what he ingested far more than his disobedience is a BRILLIANT analogy. Stunningly brlliiant even if you disagree with his use of it.

Breaking: co-workers use Bible to put you in fear of the Bible | The Lord's Recovery | Witness Lee
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MLBRwdnSPM

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Breaking: co-workers use Bible to put you in fear of the Bible | The Lord's Recovery | Witness Lee
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MLBRwdnSPM

I saw this video headline a little earlier at work today and chuckled on and off for about an hour or so. It sounds a lot like one of those "The Onion" news satire headlines and it just hit me so funny, as well as doing a good job encapsulating the absurdity of the co-workers' attempts at damage control.

The video makes a good point that they really are essentially saying that Witness Lee is what saves you from the dangerous Word of God. It's, to use alwayscurious's phrase, mind-blowing.

The more I listen to Cal's videos and to these videos which both shine light on the problems in the LC, and the more I read healthy Christian exposition, the more the "masquerading as an angel of light" becomes more of a fitting metaphor to me in thinking about the local church.

Trapped

New Video: Is Witness Lee's ministry THE ONE UNIQUE New Testament ministry?

[Ohio]

Does anyone really believe that?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Does anyone really believe that?

The creator of Unchained has given us the answer in two words:


More than one Christian apologist/critic of Witness Lee warned of the dangers of cognitive dissonance in aberrational/cultic groups like the Local Church way back in the 1970s. What was Lee and Company's response - - SUE THEM! When challenged about the prohibitions against such interfaith lawsuits in 1 Corinthians 6, Local Church minions exercised what could only be described as blatant cognitive dissonance through all sorts of mealy-mouthed, nonsensical excuses such as "we are merely following the apostle Paul in his appealing to Caesar".

Unfortunately cognitive dissonance also plays a major role in the theological teachings in the Local Church of Witness Lee. How else can a young person and/or a new believer reconcile the abject contradictions in Lee's teachings about the Triune God? In one sentence Lee will give a rather orthodox exposition of the Trinity (God exists as Three Persons but is One Being, having a single divine nature.) and in the next sentence bloviate that "The Son is called the Father; so the Son must be the Father. We must realize this fact. There are some who say that He is called the Father, but He is not really the Father. But how could He be called the Father and yet not be the Father?" and "THE SON IS THE FATHER, AND THE SON IS ALSO THE SPIRIT.... and "the Lord Jesus who is the Son is also the Eternal Father. Our Lord is the Son, and He is also the Father. Hallelujah!" (as quoted in http://www.open-letter.org/)

Cognitive dissonance in the Local Church also extends into other areas of the basic tenents of the Christian faith, such as the nature of man before and after salvation, sanctification and the nature and purpose of the Body of Christ as the universal church and local churches. Thankfully the Lord is exposing these things through venues like The Lord's Recovery Unchained, Cal's videos, The Former Members of the LC Facebook page and even this little forum.
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Cognitive Dissonance is a concept of psychology, developed by Leon Festinger.
Although it may on one hand give us an insight into the secular view of humans, through the lenses of Science, on the other hand it also completely devalues all aspects of spiritual life, or the truth that we find about who we are as a human beings. It’s interesting that I have heard of this theory before from counseling and other sources, but what is fascinating about it, is that the solutions offered to people through the secular systems are almost laughable and really do very little to resolve the issue at hand.

It’s abundantly clear for those of us who have been there at one point or another, strolling the beaten paths of single file line that goes from Nee to Lee to the current collection of blenders. Some of us didn’t know any better, but some went to great hardcore extent to make sure that you stayed within the “oneness file”, while fighting internally and externally to make sure everyone knows that you are striving for greatness. The mental, internal issues of the soul, and constant quenching of the Holy Spirit’s work in our lives, was daily ritual and routine. That’s because these so blunt and poisonous “recovered truths”, were the daily heartbeat of the true follower of these men.
- You can’t think they said, just call!
- You can’t understand they said, just trust!
- You can’t read the clear Word they said, just let us give you what it means!
- You can’t feel things they said, it’s from your natural self, kill it they warned!
- You can’t identify what’s of the spirit or of the soul, let us do it for you, they said!

I can’t see how those daily sessions around those concepts, would not lead one to some serious issues. I must say, that I have been around people who through these constant daily exercises, became like literally children in their minds. People who where 100% normal just few years ago, became totally unapproachable, unable to hear, listen, reason, have compassion, able to understand basic things. It’s kind of like they went backwards in they growth. Just a mere touch of that well put together rhetoric, known as the language of the local church, will have you at best be showered with shouting of the name of Jesus, or at worst be attached to the satans special forces. Is that cognitive dissonance, or is there something that we are missing? Is it solvable by the secular self help solutions, or the roots are way deeper that the science can penetrate?

Couple of weeks ago I tried, (against my better judgment), to talk to some current members about some things. Didn’t go well at all, and was told that the issue of all of the things that are happening in the recovery is the people who are failing to follow simply steps offered by the ministry. When I asked if the steps and solutions that are given to these people could be the causes for the many problems that people have, I was quickly reminded of how the original inventor of recovery suffered to get it to me, and how ungrateful I am. Conversation ended, and I didn’t want to press any further, knowing that the basic human ability to ask questions, examine things and test them, has been completely removed and that mind has been rewired to short circuit as soon as there is uncomfortable situation arises. What a delusional lifestyle, and it’s called “live”. I remember lying this to myself for so many years, as if it was the true reality! Where would we be without Gods grace and mercy, probably still chained in the single file, singing mindlessly “o what a wonderful church life”.������

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Guest "Just Sayin"
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[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Just Saying

Cognitive Dissonance is a concept of psychology, developed by Leon Festinger.
Although it may on one hand give us an insight into the secular view of humans, through the lenses of Science, on the other hand it also completely devalues all aspects of spiritual life, or the truth that we find about who we are as a human beings. It’s interesting that I have heard of this theory before from counseling and other sources, but what is fascinating about it, is that the solutions offered to people through the secular systems are almost laughable and really do very little to resolve the issue at hand.

It’s abundantly clear for those of us who have been there at one point or another, strolling the beaten paths of single file line that goes from Nee to Lee to the current collection of blenders. Some of us didn’t know any better, but some went to great hardcore extent to make sure that you stayed within the “oneness file”, while fighting internally and externally to make sure everyone knows that you are striving for greatness. The mental, internal issues of the soul, and constant quenching of the Holy Spirit’s work in our lives, was daily ritual and routine. That’s because these so blunt and poisonous “recovered truths”, were the daily heartbeat of the true follower of these men.
- You can’t think they said, just call!
- You can’t understand they said, just trust!
- You can’t read the clear Word they said, just let us give you what it means!
- You can’t feel things they said, it’s from your natural self, kill it they warned!
- You can’t identify what’s of the spirit or of the soul, let us do it for you, they said!

I can’t see how those daily sessions around those concepts, would not lead one to some serious issues. I must say, that I have been around people who through these constant daily exercises, became like literally children in their minds. People who where 100% normal just few years ago, became totally unapproachable, unable to hear, listen, reason, have compassion, able to understand basic things. It’s kind of like they went backwards in they growth. Just a mere touch of that well put together rhetoric, known as the language of the local church, will have you at best be showered with shouting of the name of Jesus, or at worst be attached to the satans special forces. Is that cognitive dissonance, or is there something that we are missing? Is it solvable by the secular self help solutions, or the roots are way deeper that the science can penetrate?

Couple of weeks ago I tried, (against my better judgment), to talk to some current members about some things. Didn’t go well at all, and was told that the issue of all of the things that are happening in the recovery is the people who are failing to follow simply steps offered by the ministry. When I asked if the steps and solutions that are given to these people could be the causes for the many problems that people have, I was quickly reminded of how the original inventor of recovery suffered to get it to me, and how ungrateful I am. Conversation ended, and I didn’t want to press any further, knowing that the basic human ability to ask questions, examine things and test them, has been completely removed and that mind has been rewired to short circuit as soon as there is uncomfortable situation arises. What a delusional lifestyle, and it’s called “live”. I remember lying this to myself for so many years, as if it was the true reality! Where would we be without Gods grace and mercy, probably still chained in the single file, singing mindlessly “o what a wonderful church life”.������

Just saying,

Wow, they really spun it around to put the blame game on you! I have also encountered this kind of basic inability to use their mind and actually grapple with the places their beliefs lead.

I'm definitely not an expert, but I think the things you mentioned would be best described as "thought-stopping cliches".

Just had the chance to listen to the video this morning. The "cognitive dissonance" mentioned in the video was concerning the conflicting beliefs/teachings in the local church that cannot all be true at the same time, i.e. believing both that the co-workers are telling the truth when they say Witness Lee's ministry is only a part of the NT ministry (meaning there are other ministries out there that qualify as legitimate ministries saints shouldn't be scared of), AND also going along with being "restricted in one publication" (only Lee/Nee's ministries), that is, being restricted to just a small portion of God's whole NT ministry. These two things both can't hold at the same time without being forced to acknowledge that you are missing out on ALL of the NT ministry this way. That inability to reconcile all those things without having to admit something is wrong somewhere in the equation is the "cognitive dissonance" the video spoke of....and so the saints exist in this unreconcilable mental situation, all the while thinking they are in the best place! I know I definitely experienced this myself when I was there.

That "mind short circuiting in uncomfortable situations" is a part of cognitive dissonance I think, although I agree with you that there are actually unseen things going on when it happens. Maybe this cognitive dissonance phrase is a way of identifying the physical symptoms of a behind the scenes spiritual battle; however, cognitive dissonance can also occur in any number of non-spiritual, non-Christian situations, so it's not always necessarily spiritual. I'm no psychologist - correct me if I'm wrong!

Trapped