The Four Horses - Revelation 6

[Nell]

Revelation 6:1-8 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

According to Witness Lee, the opening of the seven seals occurred immediately after Christ ascended to the heavens. That is immediately after his crucifixion, his death, and his resurrection.

https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=2BF4
You need to search for the Life Study of Revelation.

Lee also offers the teaching that the four horses comprise the totality of world history. Historically, it is obviously accurate that war, famine and death have existed throughout history. The preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ didn’t begin immediately after his crucifixion, resurrection and ascension to the heavens. Arguably the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ began much earlier, as far back as Genesis 3:15 (15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.). in the Old Testament. That is, much earlier than “immediately after” his crucifixion, his death, and his resurrection.

“The first four seals comprise four horses with their riders in a four horse race,” with the second horse, the red horse, being war (v.4) the third horse, the black horse, famine (v5); the fourth horse, the pale horse, death (v. 8); and the first horse, the white horse, is the gospel. Lee noting that “some” believe the white horse is Christ or Antichrist. Because the second, third and fourth horses represent personifications of war, famine and death, Lee concludes that the first horse must also be a personification of the gospel and can be neither Christ or the Antichrist. What do you think? It seems to me that the gospel of Jesus Christ cannot, should not, be separated from the person of Jesus Christ.


1. My question is, just because war, famine and death have existed throughout history, is that alone confirmation that the seven seals have been opened throughout history?
2. Does the white horse conclusively represent the gospel as Lee believed?
3. Lee gave these messages on the Revelation…not sure but I’ll guess…25-30 years ago. Would he come to these same conclusions today if he were alive and could see what’s happening in the world today?
4.What other options are there for the white horse?
5. Where are we now in the "end times" timeline? Anyone?

Nell

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Nell

Revelation 6:1-8 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

According to Witness Lee, the opening of the seven seals occurred immediately after Christ ascended to the heavens. That is immediately after his crucifixion, his death, and his resurrection.

https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=2BF4
You need to search for the Life Study of Revelation.

Lee also offers the teaching that the four horses comprise the totality of world history. Historically, it is obviously accurate that war, famine and death have existed throughout history. The preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ didn’t begin immediately after his crucifixion, resurrection and ascension to the heavens. Arguably the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ began much earlier, as far back as Genesis 3:15 (15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.). in the Old Testament. That is, much earlier than “immediately after” his crucifixion, his death, and his resurrection.

“The first four seals comprise four horses with their riders in a four horse race,” with the second horse, the red horse, being war (v.4) the third horse, the black horse, famine (v5); the fourth horse, the pale horse, death (v. 8); and the first horse, the white horse, is the gospel. Lee noting that “some” believe the white horse is Christ or Antichrist. Because the second, third and fourth horses represent personifications of war, famine and death, Lee concludes that the first horse must also be a personification of the gospel and can be neither Christ or the Antichrist. What do you think? It seems to me that the gospel of Jesus Christ cannot, should not, be separated from the person of Jesus Christ.


1. My question is, just because war, famine and death have existed throughout history, is that alone confirmation that the seven seals have been opened throughout history?
2. Does the white horse conclusively represent the gospel as Lee believed?
3. Lee gave these messages on the Revelation…not sure but I’ll guess…25-30 years ago. Would he come to these same conclusions today if he were alive and could see what’s happening in the world today?
4.What other options are there for the white horse?
5. Where are we now in the "end times" timeline? Anyone?

Nell

Personally:
1. I do agree with that. However wars, famine and death have existed before Christ, we see that seals opened Lamb, which was Christ. This book is prophesy telling about spiritual reality but not only.
2. Indeed this is a matter of believe. Whatever interpretation we get it will be our a matter of acceptance after any check with Bible. For now I do "buy" this interpretation.
3. What is worst now than then? What has changed?Any difference?
4. I have no idea. I was reading now few chapters before I responded. I am really under impression. I feel this burden and weight but only few verses coming...
5. Where we are now in time line? After 10.00 PM ca.
Second watch was after 10.00. Third watch was after 2.00 AM.
For sure we are after 10.00. This is full night what we have now. All saints feel this spiritual darkness. Much darker than at WL time, but it not changes perspective.
Luc 12:39
And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
Piece from 12:35 and later seems to sounds very actual in my ears.
Let your loins be girded about, and your lamps burning;
I see something important in difference between "day" and "hour".
I really have to spend more time on it. I feel again pushed by Lord. I am so unfaithful servant. I wanted to do this study for long time.
I hope some of You also will take a look on it.
Why Lord Jesus said once " no body know that hour" and other places "that day"?
Day is bigger period of time, but hour is more exact.
Off cours that Hour will be at certain day, but... Exactly! why?

[Robert]

P.S To last post
Mat 24:50
The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Rev 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Nell

[B][COLOR="Sienna"]
What do you think? It seems to me that the gospel of Jesus Christ cannot, should not, be separated from the person of Jesus Christ.

Nell

I think it was not in meaning preaching gospel as personal experience ( then off course we have share Christ in gospel) but as event. The same as other symbolic horses were events, things.
As we have term "church"/ ekklesia. What is ekklesia? In general called out group of people. But each of them is individual person with his own call.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Robert

I think it was not in meaning preaching gospel as personal experience ( then off course we have share Christ in gospel) but as event. The same as other symbolic horses were events, things.
As we have term "church"/ ekklesia. What is ekklesia? In general called out group of people. But each of them is individual person with his own call.

Neither do I. I understand the symbolism v. Event.

Nell

[Zezima]

When it comes to revelation, I like to think that “it cannot mean for us, what it did not mean for them.”

To answer question 5, we are in the end times as much as Paul was in the end times.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Zezima

When it comes to revelation, I like to think that “it cannot mean for us, what it did not mean for them.”

To answer question 5, we are in the end times as much as Paul was in the end times.

Well, it depends if we are sure of what we are talking about, Zezima.

If we really find real meaning of words we use, than our talk will be in objective reality.
Subjective reality is our opinion. Objective reality is more like platform where we can communicate the same way. That was as introduction- sorry for that philosophic speach.
1. What is "we"?
2. What is Time?
2'.What is "end times"?
3. Who is Paul?
4. How we can compare his point of view with our?

I am not going to give You ready answer. I just wish saints to come to Word of God as His spoken out reality in prayer.
We should not be so light ina matter of waiting for His coming.
If we take away that factor from our life, then matter of sanctification also is losing meaning.

Eph 5:17
because of this become not fools, but -- understanding what [is] the will of the Lord,
1 Tes 5:3
for when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction will come upon them, as pain in a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
John 16:19
Jesus perceived that they were desirous to ask him, and he said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves concerning this, that I said, A little while, and ye behold me not, and again a little while, and ye shall see me?
16:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
16:21
A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but when she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for the joy that a man is born into the world.
16:22
And ye therefore now have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no one taketh away from you.

Edit:
Rev 12:4
And his tail draweth the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon standeth before the woman that is about to be delivered, that when she is delivered he may devour her child.
12:5
And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.

[Robert]

If I were a painter ( was trying) , I would paint our general situation as :
Human is question mark but God is our answer.
We were born with question "why?". "What is a purpose of my life?".
When we got answer for that becoming children of God, then we ask "how?". "How this will become?"
And even we got answer that by coming to His throne in prayer, we will ask every day " Lord, what You have for me today?".
This is our journey of asking.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Robert

Well, it depends if we are sure of what we are talking about, Zezima.

If we really find real meaning of words we use, than our talk will be in objective reality.
Subjective reality is our opinion. Objective reality is more like platform where we can communicate the same way. That was as introduction- sorry for that philosophic speach.
1. What is "we"?
2. What is Time?
2'.What is "end times"?
3. Who is Paul?
4. How we can compare his point of view with our?

What in the world are you talking about? The end times means when the 2nd coming occurs.

Paul was an apostle who wrote a lot of books in the Bible. Do a quick Google search, there’s a lot of resources about who Paul is. Also, Google what the New Testament is, he’s an author of that.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

1. My question is, just because war, famine and death have existed throughout history, is that alone confirmation that the seven seals have been opened throughout history?
2. Does the white horse conclusively represent the gospel as Lee believed?
3. Lee gave these messages on the Revelation…not sure but I’ll guess…25-30 years ago. Would he come to these same conclusions today if he were alive and could see what’s happening in the world today?
4.What other options are there for the white horse?
5. Where are we now in the "end times" timeline? Anyone?

Nell

Nell, I just recently received a Revelation Prophecy Wall Chart from a Dr. David Jeremiah, whom I barely know. (I think the free circular popped up on some FB site.) Somewhere I also have WL's Revelation Chart. Actually WL's Chart, published in 1976, is pretty good since he compiled it from numerous excellent Christian writers. Far better than Hal Lindsey's LGPE account, anyway.

This Chart lists the following:

1. White Horse - Conquering Power
2. Red Horse - War and Bloodshed
3. Black Horse - Famine
4. Pale Horse - Pestilence and Death

I think the White Horse could also be the resurrected Lamb of God, mentioned in the prior verse, crowned and conquering. Most do believe that these 4 Horses do represent a composite of human history, with the only bright spot being the Savior.

I view the Lamb of God in the heavens as timeless here, and not just from 2 Millennia ago, since OT salvation was predicated on the belief that God existed and that a Messiah would one day come. As such, the Red Horse originated when Cain slew his brother.

Where are we now? I believe during the 5th Seal, Christians are now being systematically martyred around the world, but that doesn't mean the first 4 Seals have ended, rather they are increasing in intensity, like birth pangs.

The next two major events on the horizon are the 6th Seal, an incredible earthquake, moving mountains and islands out of their places, and the building of the Temple in Jerusalem. These will be known by all. The Daniel 9.27 covenant will precede the building of the temple, but it may or may not be a public event.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Nell, I just recently received a Revelation Prophecy Wall Chart from a Dr. David Jeremiah, whom I barely know. (I think the free circular popped up on some FB site.) Somewhere I also have WL's Revelation Chart. Actually WL's Chart, published in 1976, is pretty good since he compiled it from numerous excellent Christian writers. Far better than Hal Lindsey's LGPE account, anyway.

This Chart lists the following:

1. White Horse - Conquering Power
2. Red Horse - War and Bloodshed
3. Black Horse - Famine
4. Pale Horse - Pestilence and Death

I think the White Horse could also be the resurrected Lamb of God, mentioned in the prior verse, crowned and conquering. Most do believe that these 4 Horses do represent a composite of human history, with the only bright spot being the Savior.

I view the Lamb of God in the heavens as timeless here, and not just from 2 Millennia ago, since OT salvation was predicated on the belief that God existed and that a Messiah would one day come. As such, the Red Horse originated when Cain slew his brother.

Where are we now? I believe during the 5th Seal, Christians are now being systematically martyred around the world, but that doesn't mean the first 4 Seals have ended, rather they are increasing in intensity, like birth pangs.

The next two major events on the horizon are the 6th Seal, an incredible earthquake, moving mountains and islands out of their places, and the building of the Temple in Jerusalem. These will be known by all. The Daniel 9.27 covenant will precede the building of the temple, but it may or may not be a public event.

Ohio,

I've seen that chart. I've read David Jeremiah off and on for a long time. I can't think of a thing that I would seriously disagree with him on, on any topic. Here's a link to download a version of it:
https://www.davidjeremiah.org/onlineprophecychart/chart

One on current events:
https://davidjeremiah.blog/connectin...urrent-events/

There is a lot out there that speculates that the white horse is either Christ or the Antichrist with some pretty decent arguments on both sides.

I'm reading through Lee's Revelation Life Studies. I'm looking for his timeline/chart. He makes his case for the white horse being the gospel pretty well.

I was actually in attendance at that Revelation training. It was a lot of excitement as I remember. I remember the common belief that Lee's Local Church would "bring the Lord back"...somehow, but I don't remember how he made his case.

Nell

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Nell

Ohio,

I've seen that chart. I've read David Jeremiah off and on for a long time. I can't think of a thing that I would seriously disagree with him on, on any topic. Here's a link to download a version of it:
https://www.davidjeremiah.org/onlineprophecychart/chart

One on current events:
https://davidjeremiah.blog/connectin...urrent-events/

There is a lot out there that speculates that the white horse is either Christ or the Antichrist with some pretty decent arguments on both sides.

I'm reading through Lee's Revelation Life Studies. I'm looking for his timeline/chart. He makes his case for the white horse being the gospel pretty well.

I was actually in attendance at that Revelation training. It was a lot of excitement as I remember. I remember the common belief that Lee's Local Church would "bring the Lord back"...somehow, but I don't remember how he made his case.

Nell

I,ve checked that link to Jeremiah's teaching.
It sounds even better from Lee's. WL was focused on interpretation of white color. There is no word about gospel but about conquering.
What is positive in that?
And also it seems to me more logic when all four horses have negative meaning.
I am encouraged to dig more. Very interesting.

[Bible-believer]

Rev. Clarence Larkin's Tribulation Chart. Here is the link.

Rev. Clarence Larkin's chart

[Robert]

I found another one by Clearvisionbiblestudies.com

https://clearvisionbiblestudies.com/...rge-chart.html

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

1. My question is, just because war, famine and death have existed throughout history, is that alone confirmation that the seven seals have been opened throughout history?
2. Does the white horse conclusively represent the gospel as Lee believed?
3. Lee gave these messages on the Revelation…not sure but I’ll guess…25-30 years ago. Would he come to these same conclusions today if he were alive and could see what’s happening in the world today?
4.What other options are there for the white horse?
5. Where are we now in the "end times" timeline? Anyone?

Nell

This phrase "over the fourth part of the earth" is troubling.

I think this phrase alone might possibly place all 4 Horsemen into the future.

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This phrase "over the fourth part of the earth" is troubling.

I agree.

I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth. (Rev*6:8*NAU)

My question is this: is the pronoun "them" referring to Death and Hades here in v 8, and to the fourth seal in particular, or to the four horsemen. If it is the former, the term "fourth" refers to their share of the total judgement. I tend to take that point of view, but I will have to admit that my knowledge of Greek is not good enough to make the call.

The confusing part of this verse to me is the four kinds of death they deliver: sword, famine, pestilence, and wild beasts. Two of these seem to be covered by the other three horsemen, while the last two are not.