Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com

[UntoHim]

Please post reactions/comments to the latest articles at Sherherdingwords.Com here.

[Robert]

Wow!!!!
I would comment a whole day all liars of this cult!!! Word after word! However, this advice is not an exercise of control but the issue of a loving concern based on a discerning of the nature of these writings and their effect on those who read them"

Are You kidding me? They created false definition of some regenerated spirit, they programmed people and they want to control saints! What a satanic work!

I was listening Ron Kangas yesterday. This man is so lost in his mind! He is so proud and still mentioning brother who died few years ago. He described situation and this brother as defeated! Who is this Ron to judge theirs and us pulpit and authority to turn saints against those who were connected to this Brother.
This time, this stupid man, Ron Kangas, did not mentioned him by name, but described situation.
So he, Ron, can spread rumors instead of covering in love?
He is all LC protector!
This all message is about blind followers i LC! Do not check, do not read, nave no You own mind!!!
And still he says, this is not mind control?
You can not imagine how worse and worse he is every year!
Just find record from conference 10.31.2021 I guess.
And by the way. Is it honest, that sued people for using excerpts from messages? That they removed many thing from YT?
That they reserved rights?
Just watch clips on YT with David Wilkerson. Kinda " feel free to copy and spread!" This is massage! Free! Enjoy and share!
Can honest people do anything in secret?

Prov 6; 12-19
I am sick of this and full of anger. But in healthy way. I hope God will deal with Ron and rest deceiving brothers. Lord, have mercy on kids and saints in so called LC!

[Robert]

Just example:
They quoted 1 Cor 10:10. But in their blindness forgot about context!
Israel was murmured against Moses and Aaron but rebelious against God!
Numbers 4:2; 4:9-11.
So who is Moses now and who is God in that meaning? This is nonsense what they wrote. I know most of these letters written by ex members and almost all of them was not about doctrines but exactely about controling, abuse, lack of love, unhealthy reports, spying etc.
They warn saint in general way making them fool. Not able to discern what is truth and what is false.
We do not see such a protection. Rather encouragement to know scriptures and being able to give mature explonation what we believe in and why.
2 Timothy 3:13-17 gives us a good pattern.
Publishing a letter like this, they proved that all so called LC have no autonomy and need central control.
They proved, that elders are stupid in local churches and can not deal with rumors and defend themselves.

How different from Lord Jesus position they took! Lord Jesus was quiet and did not fight with the world.
If there is a false accusation then it does not make to defend!
They say, that those letters disturb saint and grabb them from purity of heart. Well, I think they open eyes of blind people or gives answer, why for some years they had feeling of living double live?
I can go on and go on... May be some one else will comment more. For me this is a little bit bitter and frustraiting.
Not because of hate or wounds, but bacause I can not watch what damage they made among young people making them blind workers without basic spiritual sense, love and etc. Like robots.

This is sad.Today my wife read from Prov. about Ron Kangas.
Yes! You would not believe, but there is about proud people!
And btw.. I hope, this letter will stir up curiosity in opposite to warnings among saint!
However,it is not about outward factor. I am glad rather reading honest testimonies here from saint, who really see matter of real live in Spirit and false manners of so called elders.

[Trapped]

My reaction?



Really I wanted a "vomit" emoji, but those will do too.

If you didn't know better, reading these articles you would think the LC is constantly under the attack of the enemy, that the LC is preserved in a fragile special little bubble trying to protect themselves from everyone else, that every single problem in the local church is REALLY just YOU as the problem, and that they are the extreme focus of never-ending misrepresentation and unfounded slander.

The overwhelming volume of lies and scripture-twisting found on shepherdingwords.com is to the extent that no one under its grips could ever see what's going on. Seriously.....talk about the "sense of death" that you get from reading their "shepherding words"! Reading the articles is like.......all they're doing is beating you down!

The visual I got reading their articles was that they would still continue the same stream of blather even if they were actively falling into the pit of hell. That may be strong, but they have been clinging so tightly to the same false narrative for so long I think they would rather die than let it go. Their grip on a lie is so strong.

Trapped

[Robert]

Good point, Trapped!

[Nell]

I followed the link to Should we not warn other people? As I read through the first paragraph, I began to realize they're talking about themselves.

It starts out with a verse: “For the time will come when they will not tolerate the healthy teaching; but according to their own lusts they will heap up to themselves teachers, having itching ears, and they will turn away their ear from the truth and will be turned aside to myths” (2 Tim. 4:3-4.

Then they note that Paul's words are being fulfilled, by those teachers who are avoiding the warnings. Yes! Absolutely true. WE have been WARNING THEM!!! Many of us who have been subjected to their heavy handed "shepherding" have been warning them for years.

On this forum, and in many other ways, they are being warned that their teachings are not healthy. They have turned away their ear from the truth being told to them, turning aside to the mythical teachings of Witness Lee to scratch their itching ears.

They point the finger at "others" who seek/need "comfort and affirmation". Do they not have a website called "Affirmation and Critique" wherein they affirm their own words with their own words? Do they listen to anyone but themselves? Are they not the "Christian teachers avoiding the warnings..."? See the Open Letter: To the Leadership of Living Stream Ministry and the "Local Churches".

They imply that there is something wrong with "comfort and affirmation". Comfort: Healing begins when the pain of being spiritually wounded begins to subside. Affirmation: It helps to know that you're not crazy for suspecting that something is not right in the Local Churches of Witness Lee.

Do they find it "uncomfortable" to hear the voices of those on this forum who are crying out to be heard?

Then they actually say they should heed these warnings for ourselves and warn others out of a proper heart and motive. When is that going to start? When are they going to heed the warnings from those who post on this forum?

So "should we not warn other people?" Yes. Of course we should. We, this forum, are doing exactly that, and have been doing so for a long time. We are warning others about the unhealthy and sometimes heretical teachings of Witness Lee.

Another warning:
Matt. 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Nell

[aron]

I think that the most important thing is to have peace. Without peace, who can love?* We're reduced to a kind of nervous energy. In reacting to LSM organs such as Shepherding Words, Defense and Confirmation Project or Affirmation & Critique, there's a kind of knee-jerk indignation, seeing what they write versus what's known to have happened. Poster Robert writes of a sort of "holy anger" welling up within.

But my anger isn't holy, because it's shot through with unresolved personal issues. I got snookered - I was looking for love in all the wrong places, as the country song goes, and wound up in a cult. Now I'm angry about the fact that I got snookered. But James wrote, "For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God." I can't let unresolved childhood issues work through my posts, and my anger spread out to the world.

But Christ died for our peace. We have peace toward God our Father and likewise to all around.** We may question, and should question, but abiding peace must remain. The price Jesus paid for our peace was high. "My peace, I give to you. Remain in my peace. Don't let it go."

Questions, however, are necessary.*** And we should ask them until SW and DCP and A&C respond adequately.

Why does LSM sell God's Plan of Redemption by Mary E. McDonough and other such books by women, if women can't teach? Why did WN copy Jessie Penn-Lewis in his Spiritual Man, if women can't teach? Why did WN have senior co-workers Ruth Lee and Peace Wang if women can't bear responsibility and authority in the church? Clearly RL and PW did. Yet 100 years later, it's no longer allowed? Why are such rules, apparently scripturally-based, so erratically kept?

Why did WN have a library of 3,000 spiritual classics if only one publication is allowed? Don't tell me that each one of these 3,000 classics was written by one of the successive ministers of the age? And if not, and WN could safely and profitably pick through literally thousands of non-MOTA tomes, why can't we?

Why were we told the age had turned when WL died? Yet no scripture was offered. Why is that?

Why does the RecV footnote say that people are healed by the leaves of the tree of life, and live forever, but then it says that this is not eternal life? How do the words 'forever' and 'eternal' mean different things in the same passage? Please answer via scripture, not supposition.

For that matter, how does giving a cup of cold water to a believer during the Great Tribulation get one "forever-healed human life" yet at any other point in human history it's apparently vain to give a cup of cold water to a believer because works are dead? Would God so arbitrarily overturn the eternal laws?

How does a RecV footnote in Psalms say that an imprecation is "fallen human concept" or "mixed sentiment" or "natural" because we're called in the NT to bless not curse, yet in other Psalms the same writing is said to be a type of Christ defeating Satan?

How could Paul ask Timothy to remain in Ephesus and to teach "intensification" as intrinsically part of God's economy, if Paul's never seen teaching this himself? Clearly the God's economy of Witness Lee and the God's economy of Paul/Timothy are markedly different. How to reconcile this?

Why do the noted facts on Daystar in LSM website omit the role of Timothy Lee? All independent observers place him as prominent, even as the motivator and key player, and other narratives have him in similar past roles (e.g., the 1962 Seattle World's Fair). Yet in the SW website narrative he doesn't exist. Clearly the roles of immediate family members of WL affected the "storms, turmoils and rebellions" in the LC. Yet they're omitted by SW.

What if Peter had taken the funds laid at his feet in the early chapters in Acts, and started a for-profit business run by his immediate family members? Don't you think that would affect the narrative of Acts? Yet there's this pretense in ShepherdingWords.com that such things never occurred.

Now, can we ask such questions without being bitter, or angry, or vindictive? I hope so, and will keep trying. There are probably a lot of such questions to be asked.

*See, e.g., 1 John 4:20

**Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another? ~Malachi 2:10 (cf 1 Cor 8:6)

***Acts 17:11

[Indiana]

SO GOOD ARON! AND NEEDED.
-

[Bible-believer]

You spoke my mind. I asked the same questions and ended up losing my friendship with close friends. I was given a hint to shut up or to leave the group.
-

[aron]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

asked the same questions and ended up losing my friendship with close friends. I was given a hint to shut up or to leave the group.

Anyone who tries to think about what they are being presented by the so-called ministry will find their enjoyment meter going down. Because a lot of what is being presented doesn't make much sense, frankly. Some of it makes no sense.

Instead, we are told, "Don't think! Drink!" and we are told that a question mark is shaped like a serpent. And if we try to speak up we are told that we are being negative, rebellious, ambitious, or stuck in our mind. Then the fellowship meter starts going down. So one is reduced to a kind of outward, rote performance, with whatever supposed reality laying behind the outward performance having long since left.

Or we physically leave the group, emotionally wounded, as we once tearfully pledged our all, and now it is all gone. We leave physically, but our brains are still programmed with ministry rhetoric, and our confused hearts unable to hold or love anything, as what we once thought we loved has vanished into aether. We find out that it was cobwebs and dust, but it's left such a hole that we no longer trust, we gave up seeking. If that isn't real, what is?

I contend that the ability to think, to ask, to seek, to feel, to wonder are all still there. They just got repressed for a while. But the spirit is still there. Seek and you will find. Ask and it will be given to you. Knock, and the door opens. It just takes a little faith, and a little effort, consistently applied.

Originally Posted by Indiana

SO GOOD ARON! AND NEEDED.

I appreciate the affirmation. I always appreciated the tone of your posts, and if in any way I've been able imitate them as you have imitated Christ, in mildness and continued good will, with a spirit of reconciliation always hovering nearby, I suppose I'm so much the better for it.

In my case, I do tend to vitriol, but I usually recognise the source and repent, and come back to the land of the living, and try to dwell among those in the light. And that I can appreciate those in mildness, and attempt to imitate, is a hopeful sign. Small but hopeful.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by aron

Then the fellowship meter starts going down. So one is reduced to a kind of outward, rote performance, with whatever supposed reality laying behind the outward performance having long since left.

Recently, I have thought that things would be better if I never raised those questions. I would not lose the friendship and fellowship. I would not become "awkward" in their eyes. I would not be bestowed a strange look during the meeting. I would still have friends around and hang out together. I started doubting if I was making a huge mistake.
Why I wouldn't pretend I enjoy those shepherding words as before...
Well, I just can't. The more I know about the falsehood in LR, the less I can pretend. I cherish friendship and fellowship, but how about the Truth? It's the Truth setting me free.
The good old time with saints together, reading, singing, and praying, was good and real. Yet now it's gone like a wind. Some of them still talk to me politely when not touching LR's teaching.
And their relationship with me is merely an outward, a performance, with, maybe, a little bit of reality.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

Recently, I have thought that things would be better if I never raised those questions. I would not lose the friendship and fellowship. I would not become "awkward" in their eyes. I would not be bestowed a strange look during the meeting. I would still have friends around and hang out together. I started doubting if I was making a huge mistake.
Why I wouldn't pretend I enjoy those shepherding words as before...
Well, I just can't. The more I know about the falsehood in LR, the less I can pretend. I cherish friendship and fellowship, but how about the Truth? It's the Truth setting me free.
The good old time with saints together, reading, singing, and praying, was good and real. Yet now it's gone like a wind. Some of them still talk to me politely when not touching LR's teaching.
And their relationship with me is merely an outward, a performance, with, maybe, a little bit of reality.

Do you have anyone in your daily life who you can get support (emotional, relational) from at the moment? The loss you are starting to experience is very real and very deep, and probably won't abate any time soon.

None of this is your fault. None of it would be better if you hadn't raised the questions. The questions just shined a light on the reality of the situation. All it took were some questions about the truth -- and that connected camaraderie has disappeared like the wind. That's not a real church family. That's exactly what a cult is.

Please keep us updated with how you are doing, feeling, and coping with this.

Trapped

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by aron

I think that the most important thing is to have peace. Without peace, who can love?* We're reduced to a kind of nervous energy. In reacting to LSM organs such as Shepherding Words, Defense and Confirmation Project or Affirmation & Critique, there's a kind of knee-jerk indignation, seeing what they write versus what's known to have happened. Poster Robert writes of a sort of "holy anger" welling up within.
Now, can we ask such questions without being bitter, or angry, or vindictive? I hope so, and will keep trying. There are probably a lot of such questions to be asked.

Appreciate your attempt to direct people, however spiritual bypassing is incredibly unhealthy and toxic. There’s nothing wrong with people facing their God given emotions and working through them. We can be bitter, vindictive, and angry over our experiences in the LR, please don’t try to silence the feelings of others with spiritual talk.

Let people feel what they are feeling, let them have a safe place to express it. That’s the only way they can work through their emotions. Even Jesus wept.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Let people feel what they are feeling, let them have a safe place to express it. That’s the only way they can work through their emotions. Even Jesus wept.

Oh sure! I totally agree. Believe me, I have hundreds of posts here where I've vented pretty thoroughly. The reason that I was able to write this post, of looking at my own anger, is that 1) I've written many many posts in the moment of anger 2) that people have called me on it 3) the process of venting and getting called on it allowed me somewhat to step back and consider.

It is in that consideration that I respond. I think venting is great therapy. I don't want to shut others down and apologise if it came off that way.

I have said before, that when the demons came out in the NT sometimes it didn't look pretty. Rolling in the dust, shouting etc. But eventually, there is peace. It is that moment of peace that I look to. But I don't repress the process to get there. Sometimes yelling and arm-waving is involved. Lord knows I've done my share.

Thank you

[UntoHim]

Zezima, Robert and others,

Far be it from me to run interference for anyone (except for myself occationally.) ....but I think what we have here is a bit of a generational difference. Most of the time aron's posts are speaking to himself and the rest of us old-timers. If you look up the words "bitter, vindictive and angry" in the LCD dictionary it simply shows a picture of UntoHim, with a secondary definition given as Ohio and aron. Trust me, it takes a lot of work and effort to ascend to such lofty heights of bitterness and causticness...in our cases, we've been at it for about decade and a half now.

Seriously though, what is with us 21st century Christians? It seems we spend 95% of our time and energy fighting what we are against, instead of the other way around. Maybe we would all do well to pray-read todays quote. Altogether now.... "The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, But because he loves what is behind him."
-

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Appreciate your attempt to direct people, however spiritual bypassing is incredibly unhealthy and toxic. There’s nothing wrong with people facing their God given emotions and working through them. We can be bitter, vindictive, and angry over our experiences in the LR, please don’t try to silence the feelings of others with spiritual talk.

Let people feel what they are feeling, let them have a safe place to express it. That’s the only way they can work through their emotions. Even Jesus wept.

I did not take it as an emotions silencing, Zezima, at all!
There are emotions in me, but who has not them?
Jesus was turning tables in the temple. Do You think He was cold like stone?
I think we are all balanced and normal human. After years following after Jesus, many of us can recognize how much of this anger comes from flesh misunderstanding or even from love.
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, But because he loves what is behind him."
I can say for my self: love for God and saints is main factor which causes me anger on false teaching, and deceiving people. It is not about me only, Zezima. I have no wound. If I had it is healed.
I have one brother, who is wounded and has bitterness in heart. He is still sick. I was encouraging him to be free and more focus on Jesus.
When I use exclamation mark or tone is high it does not mean I am sick spiritually or wounded. I rather have love and burden for them. If we stick to our Lord's heart we will feel His love and His hate. In many verses is written that He will destroy His enemies. All we know it is not people in flesh but Satan. "We do not fight with flesh...". This is normal to feel anger on enemy when we see damages he makes.
Resuming, I think everything is ok. and that was good point to not to lose peace. I have peace.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Robert

and that was good point to not to lose peace. I have peace.

It's probably taken me longer than most, but I'm getting there. It's difficult on an anonymous internet forum to gauge one another. At my job there's a guy who goes around, stops us, and says, "You okay, brother? You okay?" I appreciate him, and my own self-assessments here are meant to facilitate others' as well. But as Zezima points out, we have to be careful not to lead others where they're not ready to go yet. Thank you all for the grace.

But it all goes back to why I wrote the post #38. One of the reactions to ShepherdingWords.com is certainly to get angry/upset/frustrated/etc. It's hard to watch people getting spiritually and psychologically abused, sometimes even physically, and there's this pretty obvious whitewash going on, to facilitate its continuance.

The most effective way to react is with clear logical thought (of course, with many of us, 'clear' and 'logical' are approximations, but we try). Lead them to their own words, point out the obvious discrepancies between what's written with what took place, the contradictions and mis-statements. Then, offer some possible alternatives. At one point, I tried to do this with "God's economy", for example. But my questions, and my alternatives, were meant to be a sample. Others may have other questions, and answers. That's why it's called "discussions".

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

Questions, however, are necessary. And we should ask them until SW and DCP and A&C respond adequately.

Another that recently surfaced: a Google search with "Witness Lee center meaning universe" came back with several different answers:

The human person. Remember the LC song, Hymn #1293 - "Oh, I'm a man - I'm the center and the meaning of the universe!"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIhnmOwFuJg

And https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9WbiJiNuYo

But wait... there's more! How about, The human spirit!?

The throne of God?

The tree of life?

Or, the cross?

Five separate items, each at one point deemed the center of the universe by MOTA. There are probably more - this was the first couple of pages of results. The question is, how can a supposed bible teacher keep changing things in front of so many, and so often, and nobody raises a hand to say, "Uhh, excuse us Herr Guru, but this is not what was taught last year"? What's most amazing isn't how WL changed things so radically, that "early Lee" and "later Lee" were now at odds, but that he was never called on it.

So I'd like to take this opportunity to ask "ShepherdingWords.com" to go through WL references to the 'center of the universe' and reconcile them. It's pretty confusing to the casual reader.

We've even seen LSM's apologetics-cum-promotion web sites do this. One's called "A godman dot com" and various pages say contradictory things. One page says that the throne of God is the center of the universe.

https://agodman.com/vision-throne-of...hout-universe/

"The throne of God is the center of the universe, and it is where the Lord is."

And then the same web site has another page that says something else, quite entirely - why, no - it's the cross! Silly us, what were we thinking back there!?

https://agodman.com/cross-center-uni...inciple-cross/

[Robert]

From article BEING SAFEGUARDED BY THE DISCERNMENT IN THE BODY

"1. In the physical realm, once the tongue has tasted that a substance is rancid, there is no need for other members of the body to contact that same thing to form their own opinions. Rather, all the other members with their various functions benefit from the function of the tongue as the tasting organ and are thereby preserved and safeguarded.

2. It is a great blessing and preservation for the saints to receive the ministry of
the more mature members, to accept the discernment of the Body, and to reject the temptation to
independently seek to discern the nature of negative writings. Behind this temptation is the implicit
assumption that one has the spiritual discernment, wisdom, capacity, knowledge of the facts, and freedom
in the spirit to accurately judge the matters involved.
3. To assume self-sufficiency is to disregard the Lord’s
placing of the members in His Body with their respective functions, violate the Body’s organic principle, lose the Body’s covering, and expose oneself to Satan's attack.
4. May the saints in the recovery look to the Lord that He would cause us all to grow in our discernment and consciousness of the Body for the protection,growth, and perfecting of each member unto the building up of the Body of Christ."

When I had a walk with my wife and our dog, I shared about this excerpt from article. Suddenly, Lord gave me better understanding of this false and deceitful article.

Ad 1. When we talk about body and members, do not forget about head. They do not mention it.
So let's say we have some food. It can taste sweet. But! Before we take it to the mouth we can feel it in hand and recognize by eyes. So they say about function of tongue. But what about function of others critical members? Should not we trust them? Let's say we have powder. Smells like ham, taste like ham, but this is powder. Will we eat it? Or rather brain has all information to decide to not eat it?
So we can see here manipulation even against logic. And btw all members are manged by head which is Christ Himself. So other words they teach heresy that tongue has authority to manage the body.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Robert

From article BEING SAFEGUARDED BY THE DISCERNMENT IN THE BODY

"1. In the physical realm, once the tongue has tasted that a substance is rancid, there is no need for other members of the body to contact that same thing to form their own opinions. Rather, all the other members with their various functions benefit from the function of the tongue as the tasting organ and are thereby preserved and safeguarded.

2. It is a great blessing and preservation for the saints to receive the ministry of
the more mature members, to accept the discernment of the Body, and to reject the temptation to
independently seek to discern the nature of negative writings. Behind this temptation is the implicit
assumption that one has the spiritual discernment, wisdom, capacity, knowledge of the facts, and freedom
in the spirit to accurately judge the matters involved.
3. To assume self-sufficiency is to disregard the Lord’s
placing of the members in His Body with their respective functions, violate the Body’s organic principle, lose the Body’s covering, and expose oneself to Satan's attack.
4. May the saints in the recovery look to the Lord that He would cause us all to grow in our discernment and consciousness of the Body for the protection,growth, and perfecting of each member unto the building up of the Body of Christ."

When I had a walk with my wife and our dog, I shared about this excerpt from article. Suddenly, Lord gave me better understanding of this false and deceitful article.

Ad 1. When we talk about body and members, do not forget about head. They do not mention it.
So let's say we have some food. It can taste sweet. But! Before we take it to the mouth we can feel it in hand and recognize by eyes. So they say about function of tongue. But what about function of others critical members? Should not we trust them? Let's say we have powder. Smells like ham, taste like ham, but this is powder. Will we eat it? Or rather brain has all information to decide to not eat it?
So we can see here manipulation even against logic. And btw all members are manged by head which is Christ Himself. So other words they teach heresy that tongue has authority to manage the body.

Robert,

Great point! You are right - it's like they cannot help themselves....they HAVE to create this "just trust us" or "you have to blindly follow the one unique" one that they deceptively create.

I absolutely agree with your analogy - when I take milk out of my fridge.....I don't blindly pour it in a cup and only trust my tongue to determine if it is sour - I look at it, I swirl it around, I smell it, and I taste it, and I see how it lands in my stomach. The co-workers are always working towards a scenario where everyone is supposed to blindly trust the singular appointed member that supposedly never works in concert with other members.

The local church is a controlling, oppressive, scripture-twisting and logic-twisting group.

Trapped

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Robert

From article BEING SAFEGUARDED BY THE DISCERNMENT IN THE BODY

[I]"1. In the physical realm, once the tongue has tasted that a substance is rancid, there is no need for other members of the body to contact that same thing to form their own opinions. Rather, all the other members with their various functions benefit from the function of the tongue as the tasting organ and are thereby preserved and safeguarded.

2. It is a great blessing and preservation for the saints to receive the ministry of
the more mature members, to accept the discernment of the Body, and to reject the temptation to
independently seek to discern the nature of negative writings. Behind this temptation is the implicit
assumption that one has the spiritual discernment, wisdom, capacity, knowledge of the facts, and freedom
in the spirit to accurately judge the matters involved.
3. To assume self-sufficiency is to disregard the Lord’s
placing of the members in His Body with their respective functions, violate the Body’s organic principle, lose the Body’s covering, and expose oneself to Satan's attack.
.

You know what, fellas?
I wanted to comment rest in next free time. But when I see this nonsense I am tired and feel humiliated to come so down to abolish and destroy this BS.
I can just imagine Ron or Minoru coming to Jesus at night saying all this BS nonsenses.
Bla, bla, bla. And then, Jesus just watching them patiently in silence...
I think Nicodemus was really blessed that Jesus wanted to talk to him.

So instead of multiplying this deadly poison, let me share something "positive" ( negative and positive sounds like psychology or electricians terminology).

Last time we visited one couple. They was in LC but they was not...
Our sister shared here experience from visiting two different home meetings in one week. It was after very difficult time.
First group was out of denomination. May be ten saints. It was wonderful and blessed time she hadn't for long time. Singing, sharing and reading the Bible.
She was satisfied in spirit and nourished. Generally very happy.

After two days, she went to LC group after months of absence.
She was so charged positively, that she brought some burden to share and to pray about.
After she finished... silence in room, no response and then, some one said: Well, according to our plan we will read... and so on, and bla, bla.
She felt like her spirit was quenched and death was in the air.

We started to recall our first joyful meetings in LC. But after years something happened. We lost something.
And amazing is that some honest groups can have presence of God with so little knowledge or even lack, about "sevenfold turbo charged high speed spirit" .

After that, I felt more free to tell her about that article. She could not believe what they said there.
I think that saints will leave this LC mostly because of lack of real live and poisoning religious people. If there would be one among ten, then no problem. Majority of saints should overcome death. But if You are alone versus 9 indoctrinated sleeping saints...

I am not going to spread any "negative" poison among saints. I trust the Lord, that all born again brothers and sisters have taste in them. Taste of life and taste of death.
Taste of life will bring them to Christ and other saints. But taste of death ( like in that article) will cause them to reject religious people and so called blended.

Prayer and waiting is what I can do about them.

"I encourage all the young people to get a college degree. Do not make spirituality an excuse for not studying. Rather, study more diligently than the secular students, get the highest grades, and go on for advanced degrees. Do not stop with one Ph.D., but get two or three Ph.D.'s. Also learn to speak a number of other languages. Gain the “Tyrian” skills and the “Egyptian” knowledge. Become a doctor in biology, medicine, or nuclear physics.

There is a need in the Lord's recovery today for those with the highest education. Young people, you must endeavor to gain the best education. Arrange your daily schedule in this way: seven and a half hours for sleep, one and a half hours for eating, one hour for exercise, eight hours for study, and six hours for spiritual things. If you expend your energy in this way, by the time you are thirty you will be able to begin your ministry like the Lord Jesus did (Luke 3:23). Continue your studies until you are thirty. If many take this way, we shall have no shortage of pillar makers.

Do not get married too soon. I do not like to see the brothers getting married before the age of twenty-five. Do not be burdened down too soon with marriage and children. Rather, use your time and energy for studying. The age of twenty-six is soon enough for brothers to begin having children. Furthermore, I do not like to see the sisters getting married before the age of twenty-two. If the sisters marry too early and have children too soon, they may be overburdened and even spoiled. Follow the schedule I recommend until you are twenty-five years old and see what will be the issue. This surely is good for God's recovery."
(Raising Up the Next Generation for the Church Life, Chapter 17, Section 6 Compiles from the ministries of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee - LSM)

1 John 2:15
“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.”

Looks like the old timers in the recovery are dying out with this whole pandemic thing, the money and donations are getting short, the lost generation are not contributing to the system as their parents did. The younger generation is a bit more advance on searching things online, so let's put up warning websites, and how do we replenish the system? Solution? Yes, lets hit all college campuses and recruit new blood, of highly educated people. They are already brainwashed, and what's a bit more of it would do? We just have to redirect them to give to the correct causes, correct things, after all, the higher the education = higher pay=more money=more LSM corporation will be buying up more buildings around the world! Hey, were are just all about spreading the "Truth" , LOL.

Grab some popcorn people! People in America are so naive to think that they are advancing something, when they are just a cash cows for all these worldwide travesties. You believe what you're told, and never actually verify where and how the money are being used. You will get a video from some third world country saying that we need your help, and you all feel oh so really bad, that you give your money and more to this.

Power, Money, Control, Brainwashing, Suppressing the Truth, Encouraging young people to not get married, waste time on pursuing worldly things, rebuilding the old testaments tabernacle "AKA" the church, this is what its all about people, wake up!

[Indiana]

www.lordsrecovery.us/ministrychurches.pdf

Nee’s statement:
"What havoc has been wrought in the Church because so many of her ministers have sought to bring the churches under their ministry, rather than by their ministry serve the churches. As soon as the churches are brought under any ministry, they cease to be local and become sectarian....

“And, the ‘churches’ established will be ‘ministerial churches’ not local ones.”
(pp138-139, Nee)

The ministry materials given in all the above references were to be safeguards for the churches to keep them in the oneness of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace. But the leadership has paid no attention to safeguards, guidelines, sober warnings, trampling underfoot such fellowship, thus setting up the conditions for, and the causes of, turmoil and division.
-

[Robert]

" Wherein lies the failure of missions today? They keep the results of their work in their own hands. In other words, they have reckoned their converts as members of their mission, or of their mission church, instead of building them into, or handing them over, to the local churches. The result is that the mission extends all the while and becomes quite an imposing organization, but local churches are scarcely to be found. And because there are no local churches, the mission has to send workers to different places as “pastors” of the various companies of Christians. So church is not church, and work is not work, but both are a medley of the two. There seems to be no scriptural warrant for forming companies of workers into missions; nevertheless, to regard a mission as an apostolic company is not definitely unscriptural, but for missions to enlarge their own organization instead of establishing local churches is distinctly so."
W.Nee , Normal christian church life

Let me think, why so many members are leaving this organization...
For churches lost their independence and became agencies of one corporation?
Is it not what John Ingalls had a burden for all the time?

[Robert]

Churches are founded on the ground of locality, not on the ground of receiving a certain apostle. W. Nee Normal Christian church life

Oh, really? Just try to reject apostle and minister of this age WL and his writings! No chance!
Unique and every church is only keeping oneness in "healthy" teaching and one accord.

Without WL there is no oneness! Upsss! Did I wrote this?
In Bible we just have to keep oneness in Holy Spirit.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Robert

Churches are founded on the ground of locality, not on the ground of receiving a certain apostle. W. Nee Normal Christian church life

Oh, really? Just try to reject apostle and minister of this age WL and his writings! No chance!
Unique and every church is only keeping oneness in "healthy" teaching and one accord.

Without WL there is no oneness! Upsss! Did I wrote this?
In Bible we just have to keep oneness in Holy Spirit.

The evidence from the last 45 years that I was associated with the Recovery is frankly overwhelming in support of your statements here. There is NO oneness of the Spirit in the Recovery anymore. It is simply the oneness of WL. Their ground of oneness is the leadership at LSM.

Even when Philip Lee, by all accounts an unsaved power-hungry degenerate, was placed in charge of LSM, all workers and LC’s were forced into subservience and a fleshly allegiance under his abusive leadership. That explained why so many godly, spiritual, and fruitful brothers departed at the time.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Indiana

www.lordsrecovery.us/ministrychurches.pdf

Nee’s statement:
"What havoc has been wrought in the Church because so many of her ministers have sought to bring the churches under their ministry, rather than by their ministry serve the churches. As soon as the churches are brought under any ministry, they cease to be local and become sectarian....

“And, the ‘churches’ established will be ‘ministerial churches’ not local ones.”
(pp138-139, Nee)

The ministry materials given in all the above references [by Nee and Lee in this writing] were to be safeguards for the churches to keep them in the oneness of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace. But the leadership since January 1974, following the untreated Daystar disaster, has not paid any attention to safeguards, guidelines, or sober warnings, thus trampling underfoot such fellowship, and setting up the conditions for, and the causes of, turmoil and division.

The “local churches” have distinguished themselves from the rest of the Body of Christ and have brought the churches under the ministry of a special leader to form their church life. And, “Wherever ministry is made the occasion for the forming of a church, there you have the beginning of a new denomination.” (The Normal Christian Church Life, p138-139, Nee)

[Trapped]

article on "Stealing Meetings [sic] Halls" is up that I hadn't seen before.....concerning Mansfield, Columbus, and Toronto.

[UntoHim]

Interesting. I don't think this article was put up with the rest of those articles dated March 31st.

In any event, John Myer and Nigel Tomes have been made aware of this article, and we maybe we can look forward to hearing their "side of the story". For some reason I don't think we are getting a complete or accurate version of what took place in Columbus or in Toronto
-

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Interesting. I don't think this article was put up with the rest of those articles dated March 31st.

In any event, John Myer and Nigel Tomes have been made aware of this article, and we maybe we can look forward to hearing their "side of the story". For some reason I don't think we are getting a complete or accurate version of what took place in Columbus or in Toronto
-

I didn't see it then either.

What is striking to me (DCP - take note) is that in the....what.....75 articles now that they have written, EVERY SINGLE ONE is all about how they have never done a single thing wrong and everyone else is constantly out to get them and constantly maligning them and everyone else is a liar.

There is not a shred of humility or acknowledgement that they mishandled something or made serious errors that affected people. Most definitely not the humble attitude we see of Godly believers in the Bible.

Trapped

[Zezima]

They abandoned the way of life and truth and, with the excuse that young people needed such attractions, introduced worldly elements into the meetings, including rock bands and other forms of entertainment. They implemented oppressive measures to assert their authority and to disparage and intimidate those who did not agree with them, including setting up a camera in one of the church’s meeting halls to monitor what the saints were speaking.

They being the church in Toronto. While i don’t know the context of that drama. The same site Shepherdingwords.com has an article about how the “Defense and Confirmation Project” keeps files on “subjects of interest”. LSM does the exact same thing that they are negatively portraying in the quote about. Of course, it’s okay if they do it, but if someone else does it.. it’s terrible!


Side note, “rock bands” meaning modern worship music.. did God not create the physics of sound?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Zezima

They being the church in Toronto. While i don’t know the context of that drama. The same site Shepherdingwords.com has an article about how the “Defense and Confirmation Project” keeps files on “subjects of interest”. LSM does the exact same thing that they are negatively portraying in the quote about. Of course, it’s okay if they do it, but if someone else does it.. it’s terrible!

Side note, “rock bands” meaning modern worship music.. did God not create the physics of sound?

Zezima, that’s exactly what Paul said in Romans 2.1

Ever read about all the musical instruments King David used?

When we were excommunicated for using electric guitars and drums, we learned from church history that using pianos was also once considered “worldly entertainment” by legalistic church leaders of old. John Darby, the often revered first Brethren “MOTA,” regularly condemned the use of the piano as a “wooden brother.”

[GraceAlone]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I didn't see it then either.

What is striking to me (DCP - take note) is that in the....what.....75 articles now that they have written, EVERY SINGLE ONE is all about how they have never done a single thing wrong and everyone else is constantly out to get them and constantly maligning them and everyone else is a liar.

There is not a shred of humility or acknowledgement that they mishandled something or made serious errors that affected people. Most definitely not the humble attitude we see of Godly believers in the Bible.

Trapped

Trapped — this is exactly why shepherdingwords had the opposite effect on me than intended when I was still meeting with the LR (but questioning). You nailed it. I was so struck by the arrogance and unwillingness to admit even the possibility of having done harm over the years, even unintentionally. Now I’m praying that the Lord uses this latest material for His own redemptive purposes, to open more eyes and cause searchings of heart and of Scripture.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

Trapped — this is exactly why shepherdingwords had the opposite effect on me than intended when I was still meeting with the LR (but questioning). You nailed it. I was so struck by the arrogance and unwillingness to admit even the possibility of having done harm over the years, even unintentionally. Now I’m praying that the Lord uses this latest material for His own redemptive purposes, to open more eyes and cause searchings of heart and of Scripture.

GraceAlone, it sounds like you are experiencing darts from satan causing you to question the purity of the Lords Recovery. Witness Lee is the minister of the age, and the Lord’s Recovery is God’s only move on the earth. While nowhere in the Bible is there mention of a recovery, witness Lee had a vision, unlocking a hidden truth.. hidden to man until witness Lee. Without him, we would be blinded, and only have the Bible to guide us.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I didn't see it then either.

What is striking to me (DCP - take note) is that in the....what.....75 articles now that they have written, EVERY SINGLE ONE is all about how they have never done a single thing wrong and everyone else is constantly out to get them and constantly maligning them and everyone else is a liar.

There is not a shred of humility or acknowledgement that they mishandled something or made serious errors that affected people. Most definitely not the humble attitude we see of Godly believers in the Bible.

Trapped

BY DEFINITION, Recovery leaders are incapable of being wrong.

God Himself could not permit such an event from happening!

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I didn't see it then either.

What is striking to me (DCP - take note) is that in the....what.....75 articles now that they have written, EVERY SINGLE ONE is all about how they have never done a single thing wrong and everyone else is constantly out to get them and constantly maligning them and everyone else is a liar.

There is not a shred of humility or acknowledgement that they mishandled something or made serious errors that affected people. Most definitely not the humble attitude we see of Godly believers in the Bible.

Trapped

That website reminds me of “Methinks thou dost protest too much.”

Nell

[Zezima]

There’s a whole new batch..

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Interesting. I don't think this article was put up with the rest of those articles dated March 31st.

In any event, John Myer and Nigel Tomes have been made aware of this article, and we maybe we can look forward to hearing their "side of the story". For some reason I don't think we are getting a complete or accurate version of what took place in Columbus or in Toronto
-

And perhaps Norm could give his “side of the story” in Mansfield?

Many more articles are out. So they actually read sites like these to come up with the topics? Looks like it.

[UntoHim]

Genuine Ministers of the New Covenant
David Yoon

How should a believer evaluate whether the ministry in the Lord’s recovery—that is, the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee and their co-workers who have continued to minister on the same line—or any ministry is part of the new covenant ministry revealed in the pages of the New Testament? David Yoon, who serves in the editorial section of Living Stream Ministry, has written a short monograph that directly addresses this question. In it he establishes the pattern of the apostles’ living, teaching, and ministry of life recorded in the New Testament as the standard for assessing to what degree the work of a “minister” is part of the unique new covenant ministry. He then measures the ministry in the Lord’s recovery according to that standard. To those who hunger for a pure and full ministry of the word of God, this monograph will be very instructive, enlightening, and strengthening. Readers are encouraged to take all the matters presented in this monograph to the Lord in prayer with a pure, noble, and seeking heart.
-

“Paul and his fellow apostles were such pillars, fully reconciled to God in their inward being through a thorough experience of Christ’s death and ushering God’s people into their spirit as the true Holy of Holies that they might abide in God and live with Him (1 John 2:27-28; 4:13). Because they themselves were abiding in the Holy of Holies, they could call others to come forward to join them there (Heb. 10:22; cf. 4:16). It is crucial to see that God entrusts the ministry of reconciliation to those who themselves have been fully reconciled to God through Christ. Apart from the pillars there is no entrance—signifying that only by the ministry of such ones who co-work with God can we be fully reconciled to Him (1 Cor. 3:9; 2 Cor. 6:1; Mark 16:20). If we do not receive their ministry, we will unavoidably be severed from this work of bringing the believers fully back to God and presenting every man full-grown in Christ (Col. 1:28-29).”

“The overwhelming majority of believers today have been reconciled to God only partly, having passed through the first veil but still living mostly in their flesh, their natural life (1 Cor. 3:1, 3). This is largely because most of them are under superficial teachings that emphasize the objective aspect of Christ’s death as the price of their redemption; they are not taught concerning the subjective aspect of Christ’s death as the means of deliverance from the flesh. In contrast, the ministry in the Lord’s recovery unveils the death of Christ as the means by which God in Christ not only judicially redeems fallen human beings but also terminates the flesh of the believers for their full reconciliation to God. Further, the ministry in the Lord’s recovery provides a way to experience this vision.[

“In brief, the ministry in the Lord’s recovery has shepherded many saints to deny their soul and live in their spirit by remaining faithful to the word of the cross (1 Cor. 1:18). The word of God as a sharp two-edged sword divides soul from spirit (Heb. 4:12), exposing what is soulish and condemning the natural life. By releasing the word of the cross, this ministry has saved many from wasting years wandering in their soul and opened the way for them to enter into the highest enjoyment of Christ in their mingled spirit (Deut. 12:9; Col. 1:12). It is a great validation of Brother Lee’s ministry that under his perfecting many of his co-workers experienced the breaking of their flesh for the second step of reconciliation and have gone on to serve the saints with the ministry of reconciliation, ushering them into the Holy of Holies for their uttermost enjoyment of the Triune God.”
https://shepherdingwords.com/3-the-m...econciliation/

Please, please, believe us that we are the recovered continuation of Apostles. Us vs everyone else that knows very little!

[UntoHim]

How very nice, and convenient, of the powers that be in Anaheim to allow this person, David Yoon, to use his name in this official article on Shepherding Words. Is this person, by chance, a "Co-Worker in the Lord’s Recovery in North America"? I understand that he is on "the editorial" staff of The Living Stream Ministry, but we all know that a number of brothers hold multiple positions/titles in the Local Church movement.

I believe this is the first (and only) article in Shepherding Words in which the author is named. All the other articles are anonymous. Why the exception here?

The authors of Shepherding Words make a claim to be "Co-Workers in the Lord's Recovery in North America." Who are these men? They claim to be apostles (at least the ones that are supposedly "Senior Co-Workers"), they wield apostolic authority over the Local Churches, and they define who is and who is not a co-worker, and which local church is a genuine Local Church in the Lord's Recovery. And they do all this anonymously. This is not only immoral, it is unbiblical. The original apostles all named themselves. They named themselves because the people who are supposed to follow them have a biblical right to know if they are qualified to be an apostle.

I challenge the "Co-workers in the Lord’s Recovery in North America" to stand up and be accounted for. What are your names and what are your qualifications to be an apostle in a Christian movement?
-

[Ohio]

“Beware of evil workers. Beware of dogs. Beware of false brothers. Beware of false apostles. Beware of deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. .” - Apostle Paul (Philippians 3.2; Galatians 2.4; 2 Corinthians 11.13)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I challenge the "Co-workers in the Lord’s Recovery in North America" to stand up and be accounted for. What are your names and what are your qualifications to be an apostle in a Christian movement?
-

I agree, what qualifications do they have to Train Church Elders (ITERO) and run their seminaries (FTTX)?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I challenge the "Co-workers in the Lord’s Recovery in North America" to stand up and be accounted for. What are your names and what are your qualifications to be an apostle in a Christian movement?
-

In the preface to the "short" 60 page evaluation we see this:

PREFACE
...
Although I wrote this document in fellowship with other members of the Body of Christ, the enclosed contents are the fruit of my own investigation and represent my personal thoughts and convictions before the Lord. Any deficiencies or errors are likewise my own, and I would appreciate being alerted to them. I submit this writing to the discernment of the Body, knowing that my treatment of this subject, though extensive, is not exhaustive. I look to the Lord to bless it so that many saints would receive an uplifted appreciation of the ministry in the Lord’s recovery and as a result reap from this ministry the rich spiritual blessings that the Lord has prepared for His lovers.

Message to David Yoon: As members of the Body of Christ, we appreciate your coming forward. Hopefully, you understand our skepticism, since your leadership has never before identified themselves or opened itself to two-way communication. In order to facilitate your response to this challenge by UntoHim, we also wish to alert you, at your request, to errors contained in your monograph. In order to facilitate communication, please contact us at Reg4LCD@Gmail.Com. Your account will be created, suggested username DavidYoon. Your password will be provided to you by email from Reg4LCD@gmail.com. All private information will be personal and confidential. We look forward to hearing from you and having a transparent discussion with you.

Of course, if there is another way you prefer to communicate please let us know, again at Reg4LCD@Gmail.com. There may be a means to communicate on shepherdingwords.com. If so, please let us know.

From the members of the Body of Christ who contribute to and read this forum.
and
Nell & UntoHim
Admin/Moderators

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Genuine Ministers of the New Covenant
David Yoon

How should a believer evaluate whether the ministry in the Lord’s recovery—that is, the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee and their co-workers who have continued to minister on the same line—or any ministry is part of the new covenant ministry revealed in the pages of the New Testament? David Yoon, who serves in the editorial section of Living Stream Ministry, has written a short monograph that directly addresses this question. In it he establishes the pattern of the apostles’ living, teaching, and ministry of life recorded in the New Testament as the standard for assessing to what degree the work of a “minister” is part of the unique new covenant ministry. He then measures the ministry in the Lord’s recovery according to that standard. To those who hunger for a pure and full ministry of the word of God, this monograph will be very instructive, enlightening, and strengthening. Readers are encouraged to take all the matters presented in this monograph to the Lord in prayer with a pure, noble, and seeking heart.
-

Well,
Is there anything worse than having to have your own paid in-house individual write up a criteria by which to determine what a genuine ministry is, and then turn around and conclude that Lords recovery is it?

I guess it might be cheaper than having to shell out $625k to an outsider, and at the current going inflation rate probably couple million to do a thorough review of these mens claims & to come up with the desired conclusions. Money must be tight, or they just can’t find another CRI to write a hit piece for them. Appalling and really sad to see this state of affairs.

More mis-information issued by the LSM. Funny titles, great spin offs, and more if the same: blind leading blind! Quotes about what Lee or Nee said about the Bible, rather than any simple and genuine understandings of what’s written.

https://shepherdingwords.com/article...icles-by-date/