Overcomer Doctrine (Merged Thread)

[Zezima]

Is there any validity to this doctrine in the LR? It feels like a works based salvation, and did nothing but make me personally anxious / pursue God out of fear I’d be left in the outer darkness. I’ve since broken free of it, or at least refuse to believe it as it seems to contradict the gospel. It’s such a focal point in the LR and it’s the motivation of a lot of members Christian lives. Can we break this doctrine down? What if any validity does it have? Apart from the parables in Matthew about the virgins, or the talents.. is this doctrine sound at all?

How can someone who’s been saved by Grace, still not be accepted by God? It doesn’t make sense.

[Sons to Glory!]

This has been discussed on this forum A LOT in previous threads, and maybe someone can link to them. To me the bottom-line is that that scripture promotes that we are certainly saved by grace, yet there is still accountability for what we do afterwards in this mortal body. The LC takes this accountability to an extreme . . . when I was in the group I got a morbid fear that God was actually out to get me for not measuring up. And that included that He most likely (according to the teachings I heard) would whack me hard if I left the LC, because it was the only place where His blessing and real growth in Christ could take place. This is an extreme and manipulative fear based teaching, to say the least.

Nonetheless, there is still a race to run, a prize to gain and an accountability for believers at the Bema judgement of Christ. However, these days I've come to look at this as more as a potential loss of reward than an outright punishment.

[UntoHim]

The real problem is not that Witness Lee taught that there will be reward and punishment for believers, (the Bible clearly teaches this) the problem is that he taught, in so many words, that the reward and punishment is going to be based upon how one treated his person and his work. If one did not fully accept his authority as the One Minister, the sole Oracle of God on earth, and fully accept his ministry as the One Ministry for the Age, they were never going to be an overcomer.

For confirmation, I submit a direct quote from Mr. Benson Philipps, President of the Living Stream Ministry:
“In any case, do not leave the Lord’s recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lord’s recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lord’s recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lord’s recovery”
(The Ministry Magazine Vol. 8, No. 1 Page 189, first paragraph)

This statement is not surprising at all to any of us who spend any significant time in the Local Church of Witness Lee. If one leaves their tiny little, insignificant personality cult, not only will they never be an overcomer, they won't even be able to have "the process of sanctification" go forward within them. And they wonder why people call the Local Church a cult.
-

[Zezima]

So it’s partially true?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Zezima

So it’s partially true?

Zezima,

To break down the “overcomer” doctrine, can you first define it, precisely, so we can all start on the same page?

Thanks—
Nell

[Zezima]

I suppose that would help this discussion.

Overcomer doctrine: There is a group of Christians who were successful in their Christian lives by gaining the amount of spirit that God requires of them. This group of Christians is different than others because they have gained more God. Every Christian is saved from eternal hell, however some Christians don’t gain enough christ in their life so they are sent to outer darkness for 1,000 years, a place separated from God and a place where they will gain the Christ they failed to gain. Overcomers however will be sent to a feast with God for 1,000 years. In short, overcomers are genuinely saved Christians that gained more God in their life and are rewarded with 1,000s of feasting.

This is how I would define or describes LR definition of being a overcomer.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

For confirmation, I submit a direct quote from Mr. Benson Philipps, President of the Living Stream Ministry:
“In any case, do not leave the Lord’s recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lord’s recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lord’s recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lord’s recovery”
(The Ministry Magazine Vol. 8, No. 1 Page 189, first paragraph)

This statement is not surprising at all to any of us who spend any significant time in the Local Church of Witness Lee. If one leaves their tiny little, insignificant personality cult, not only will they never be an overcomer, they won't even be able to have "the process of sanctification" go forward within them. And they wonder why people call the Local Church a cult.
-

You reminded me of one thing. I attended a meeting regarding God's action last year. The leading brother said if you would miss the meeting, then you would miss the Rapture.

It sounded like no matter how perfect you were, as long as you missed any meeting, you would have missed the Rapture.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

You reminded me of one thing. I attended a meeting regarding God's action last year. The leading brother said if you would miss the meeting, then you would miss the Rapture.

It sounded like no matter how perfect you were, as long as you missed any meeting, you would have missed the Rapture.

That’s the thing, the whole doctrine seems to put mans righteousness on man rather than anchor our identity / righteousness in Christ.

[Bible-believer]

I was reading this article,
<The PAPAL ENCYCLICALS IN THEIR HISTORICAL CONTEXT >
“Catholicism insists that it teaches the preaching of Christ, and only that. The Catholic believes that his beliefs are identical with those of the Apostolic Church without a jot or tittle changed.”

“Hence it is that the Catholic does not say in the first instance ‘What does the Book say?’ Rather he asks, ‘What does the teaching church say?’”

“This fundamental vision of the church causes the Catholic to look to the episcopate for doctrine because the Roman Catholic bishops are the authentic exponents of God’s message. This is no idolatry of the bishops or their primate, the Bishop of Rome, but it is only a consequence of the Catholic theory of the church.”

Do those doctrinal statements sound familiar to us?

[Russian95]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

The real problem is not that Witness Lee taught that there will be reward and punishment for believers, (the Bible clearly teaches this) the problem is that he taught, in so many words, that the reward and punishment is going to be based upon how one treated his person and his work. If one did not fully accept his authority as the One Minister, the sole Oracle of God on earth, and fully accept his ministry as the One Ministry for the Age, they were never going to be an overcomer.

For confirmation, I submit a direct quote from Mr. Benson Philipps, President of the Living Stream Ministry:
“In any case, do not leave the Lord’s recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lord’s recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lord’s recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lord’s recovery”
(The Ministry Magazine Vol. 8, No. 1 Page 189, first paragraph)

This statement is not surprising at all to any of us who spend any significant time in the Local Church of Witness Lee. If one leaves their tiny little, insignificant personality cult, not only will they never be an overcomer, they won't even be able to have "the process of sanctification" go forward within them. And they wonder why people call the Local Church a cult.
-

Do you by chance have a copy or scan of that Ministry Magazine volume where Benson Philips declares that only those in the "church life" can become overcomers? I need it as a reference and can't seem to find it anywhere.

Thanks!

[UntoHim]

I used to have the actual paperback version, but have long since lost it. I suppose it might be possible to search through the Living Stream Ministry website and find it? Once problem might be is that LSM has consolidated/rearranged a number of publications, and in some cases, have changed the titles. Good luck!
-

[Sons to Glory!]

If I may, I'd like to add something to this thread that I don't know was covered before. Recently, we went through the letters to the 7 churches at the beginning of Revelation, and it was really good. The letter to Philadelphia spoke like never before and it directly pertains to overcoming.

The key point I took away from this letter was basically this - they had but a little strength, however they were faithful in the basics; matters of love, keeping His word and not denying His name. Therefore the Lord counted them as being on the mark (they already had a crown) and promised them something special - an open door (think wise virgins) and keeping them from the hour of trial coming on the whole earth! The Lord puts His seal of approval there - these guys aren't super-saints, they are just walking in the main focus: LOVE.

This letter is packed with many special things they inherit including the kingdom, the temple of God (His people), having God's name and the city's name written on them, etc. These believers hit the mark by simply being faithful in just the few key things the Lord desires of us - keeping His word/name, loving God and each other . . . and that is counted as overcoming.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Russian95

Do you by chance have a copy or scan of that Ministry Magazine volume where Benson Philips declares that only those in the "church life" can become overcomers? I need it as a reference and can't seem to find it anywhere.

Thanks!

For your reference

THE PROPER CONDITION OF THE OVERCOMERS
One Body, One Spirit, and One New Man,
by Witness Lee

THE PROPER CONDITION OF THE OVERCOMERS
Brothers and sisters, in conclusion I would like to say that if you would like to be a top Christian, you must be a Christian in the churches of the Lord’s recovery. You must also learn to live in the Body and not ever be individualistic. Furthermore, you must also understand that the churches in the Lord’s recovery on the entire earth are just one new man. Never be individualistic, and never be divisive; instead, be in the one Body and in the one new man. Moreover, in everything and in every matter in your living you must also continuously follow what the Spirit within you is speaking to the churches. Simply put, you must follow the Spirit, live in the Body, and live in the new man. This is our way today. Whatever would cause you to be separated from the Body is heretical. Whatever would cause you not to live in the new man is also an error. Whatever is not spoken by the Spirit within you is conceived only in your own mind. We must see the one Body, the one Spirit, and the one new man. We all need to hear what the Spirit within us is speaking to the churches today.

Moreover, we should always live in the Body, never being individualistic. We should never separate from the Body or divide the Body. Instead, we should continuously live in the new man. By this way I believe there will be a ninety percent possibility that we can be overcomers. One Body and one new man and one Spirit. We should always listen to and follow the Spirit.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Is there any validity to this doctrine in the LR? It feels like a works based salvation, and did nothing but make me personally anxious / pursue God out of fear I’d be left in the outer darkness. I’ve since broken free of it, or at least refuse to believe it as it seems to contradict the gospel. It’s such a focal point in the LR and it’s the motivation of a lot of members Christian lives. Can we break this doctrine down? What if any validity does it have? Apart from the parables in Matthew about the virgins, or the talents.. is this doctrine sound at all?

How can someone who’s been saved by Grace, still not be accepted by God? It doesn’t make sense.

I understand the "anxious" feeling. In my locality, some saints stop attending because they don't want to hear the "overcomers" stuff.
To me, the overcomer stuff is never a threat, for I know it's not biblical.
And you are right. The overcomer doctrine is work-based.
But we know "by grace are we saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" (Eph. 2:8)
Spiritually motivate Christians to live a pious life for the Lord is fine, but use it as a threat to restrain saints' stay in LR is not doctrinally.

[Zezima]

How can there be Christian punishment if the blood of Jesus cleanses you from EVERY sin?

[UntoHim]

I think your answer, my friend, might be found in parable of the talents, which immediately follows the parable of the 10 virgins. The one servant who was entrusted with the one talent, did not "sin" against the master per se. He did not steal the talent. He did not give the talent away. He did not lose the talent. But he did not invest the talent so that the master could reap the profits from the investment.

So, in the end, the servant was not punished for the sin of stealing or losing the talent, he was punished for not taking the valuable gift which was entrusted to him gaining a profit for the master.
-

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Zezima

How can there be Christian punishment if the blood of Jesus cleanses you from EVERY sin?

Do you have to confess, repent and ask for forgiveness for EVERY sin, or does genuine salvation cover EVERY sin you will ever commit thereafter? Or, once saved, do you get your ticket punched and don’t have to worry about sin anymore? Live like the devil is okay because you are a Christian? Paul addresses this:

1 Cor. 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Looks like punishment of a Christian and a rebuke to Christians who tolerated gross sin among them.

Nell

[Ohio]

Concerning the 1,000 year kingdom, during which some of us may or may not have the same outcome, think about the early Apostles - they have already been waiting 2,000 years. O.T. saints so much longer! With that perspective, the time frame seems more equitable.

Also, the Bible speaks of ripening "fruits," mentioning some as "first fruits." I think this millennial period of time is needed for many of God's children to "ripen," and some will take much longer than others, and that's why the Bible continually exhorts us to be ready, to watch, and be prepared.

Consider how many Christians will readily accept the "mark of the beast," which the Bible clearly warns us about. Those who refuse will be societal outcasts and enemies of the state like today's unvaxxed and worse - most will face the loss of all possessions, starvation, homelessness, imprisonment, etc. Perhaps it is these suffering ones who will be the real "overcomers," refusing to worship the beast, even unto death.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Consider how many Christians will readily accept the "mark of the beast," which the Bible clearly warns us about. Those who refuse will be societal outcasts and enemies of the state like today's unvaxxed and worse - most will face the loss of all possessions, starvation, homelessness, imprisonment, etc. Perhaps it is these suffering ones who will be the real "overcomers," refusing to worship the beast, even unto death.

Does it warn us? Or does it warn a specific group of people that the letter was written to at a specific time?

Did John John really write a letter in 98 AD to the saints in 2021 about a vaccine? Why didn’t he write about driver’s license, or SS#’s? Seems myopic, how many vaccines have been mandated since it’s time of writing? How many government mandates across the world have occurred since then? But surely John meant the covid vaccine /s


Anyways, not to go off topic here. So if a Christian can take the mark of the beast, and lose salvation, how powerful then is the blood of Christ really?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Zezima

How can there be Christian punishment if the blood of Jesus cleanses you from EVERY sin?

I may be the only one on here expressing this view, but I think "punishment" is too strong a word. I believe the preponderance of verses that apply don't have to do so much with punishment as they do with loss of reward. The blood of Christ is completely efficacious, but there is accountability for what what Christians did after salvation, that is, their works. While there may be some passages that seem to imply some sort of punishment for Christians, what I've come to see is that it's more about the loss of a reward.

(To clarify, we get redeemed and born of God and that redemption is sure! And then we do whatever we will, but there is accountability for what God's children do: "For we must all appear before the [bema] seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." 2 Cor. 5:10)

One doesn't normally get punished for not winning a prize (unless maybe in certain communist countries). Yet there are consequences for not winning. All Christians' works will be tested - as in 1st Corinthians 3 where is says that what we are building with will be tested by fire. If what we've built with is not according to what He deems to be proper materials, our works will be burned-up, yet the person will be saved. "If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." 1 Cor 3:15

Paul also speaks about running a race in several places, as does Hebrews (12:1). What happens if you don't run well in a race . . . do you get punished? Well, in a manner of speaking, there is the personal distress of not winning the prize (a lot could be said about the various reasons a believer may feel considerable angst about this). But the contest's judge does not usually whip those who lost the race . . .

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

One doesn't normally get punished for not winning a prize (unless maybe in certain communist countries). Yet there are consequences for not winning.

So what does winning look like it entail?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Zezima

So what does winning look like it entail?

Good question! I think we often believe we have to be a super-saint, but the Lord tells the faithful servant in Matthew 25, "Well done good and faithful servant - you have ben faithful in a FEW things." And if you look at Hebrews chapter 11, the "Faith Chapter," you see that the ones listed were not necessarily acting like super-saints all the time . . . there were many failings. My belief is that the Lord will impress on us the few things to be faithful in. (I have 4 specific things I know I need to be faithful in.)

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

... but I think "punishment" is too strong a word. I believe the preponderance of verses that apply don't have to do so much with punishment as they do with loss of reward.

(To clarify, we get redeemed and born of God and that redemption is sure! And then we do whatever we will, but there is accountability for what God's children do: "For we must all appear before the [bema] seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." 2 Cor. 5:10). One doesn't normally get punished for not winning a prize[/I]

There are many verses that show not only loss of reward but also discipline and/or punishment for believers. We also have many cases, both in the Old T. and New T. concerning D and P. Entire chapters, books and accounts. And it´s relative, there is a large range, depending on every case....

Concerning the metaphorical use of a competition there is a third aspect you are not including:

1.) win = reward
2.) not win = lose reward
3.) cheat = discipline or punishment

Yes, maybe no punishment for not winning a prize, but surely punishment for behaving bad.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Raptor

There are many verses that show not only loss of reward but also discipline and/or punishment. We also have many cases, both in the Old T. and New T. concerning D and P. Entire chapters, books and accounts. And it´s relative, there is a large range, depending on every case....

Concerning the metaphorical use of a competition there is a third aspect you are not including:

1.) win = reward
2.) not win = lose reward
3.) cheat = discipline or punishment

Yes, maybe no punishment for not winning a prize, but surely punishment for behaving bad.

Does 1 Cor. 5:5 sound like punishment?

“5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”

Punishment has a purpose…that the spirit might be saved.

Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Raptor

There are many verses that show not only loss of reward but also discipline and/or punishment for believers. We also have many cases, both in the Old T. and New T. concerning D and P. Entire chapters, books and accounts. And it´s relative, there is a large range, depending on every case....

Concerning the metaphorical use of a competition there is a third aspect you are not including:

1.) win = reward
2.) not win = lose reward
3.) cheat = discipline or punishment

Yes, maybe no punishment for not winning a prize, but surely punishment for behaving bad.

Interesting #3 regarding cheating and that may need more exploring (you may have something here) . . . And yes . . . I know I didn't get "all the squirrels" up the one tree here! I was just pointing out that I think the preponderance of passages in the NT look to me to be more about gaining the reward or loss of the reward, rather than outright punishment. There are certainly passages that seem to go beyond just loss of reward, but regardless, as Nell pointed out, there is a purpose and God lovingly wants to help us and develop us fully into what He has planned.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Zezima

How can there be Christian punishment if the blood of Jesus cleanses you from EVERY sin?

Because there are many judgements from God, for different kinds of people, at different times The 2 main judgements are :

1.) Judgment at the Great White Throne (Rev. 20:11).

A person who has received Christ as their Savior will NOT have to face this judgement, the blood of Jesus has cleansed them from EVERY sin, they have eternal life, and will be in the New Jerusalem for eternity.

2.) Judgement Seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10).

A person who has received Christ as their Savior will have to face this judgement, to give an account of his life, living, works, unconfessed sins, etc. It will be determined whether they enter the joy and glory of the Lord in the millenial kingdom.

Believing in Christ, victorious over #1, does NOT automatically grant you to be victorious at #2.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Because there are many judgements from God, for different kinds of people, at different times The 2 main judgements are :

1.) Judgment at the Great White Throne (Rev. 20:11).

A person who has received Christ as their Savior will NOT have to face this judgement, the blood of Jesus has cleansed them from EVERY sin, they have eternal life, and will be in the New Jerusalem for eternity.

2.) Judgement Seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10).

A person who has received Christ as their Savior will have to face this judgement, to give an account of his life, living, works, unconfessed sins, etc. It will be determined whether they enter the joy and glory of the Lord in the millenial kingdom.

Believing in Christ, victorious over #1, does NOT automatically grant you to be victorious at #2.

Yes, there are many judgements from God and these two, in my mind, are the big ones for humans. When we went through the book of Revelation a couple years ago, it was eye opening for me and it put all the judgements and wrath of God into a more proper perspective. Love is the main theme of God in the Bible and that encompasses the final book, including all the judgements there. In His love, He must eradicate those things which harm us. Like a cancer, sin and death have plagued His beings with a myriad of maladies. The more cancer present, the more eradicating there must be.

So His judgments are just and helpful to us. And if we don't allow the Great Physician to cut those bad things out now, He is left with no choice but to cut them out later. And this includes Christians - after the new birth, we still can choose to take His way and let Him do His work in us or not! Therefore, I pray often, "Lord, I am willing to be made willing for you to operate in me in this area."

And I might add that I believe being faithful in those "few things" He's given each of us to do, gives Him a primary way to operate in us.

[Bible-believer]

Rev. 2:7 says, “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.”

This is the first promise to the “overcomer.”
Are we, Christians, overcomers? According to 1John 4:4, 5:4-5, we are.

1John 4:4 says, “Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.”
1John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

But do we, Christians, need to eat the tree of life to get eternal life?

Now, every place we find this “tree of life” in the Bible, it is a means of obtaining eternal life; and its “partaking” is based on works, not on grace.
For example, Revelation 22:14 says, “Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”

Rev. 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

We are told that a man has to “keep the commandments” to partake of the tree of life. And the context shows “the leaves of the tree of life were for the healing of the nations.”

Question: Are we Christians or nations?

We are Christians. And according to the Scripture, how do Christians get eternal life? We get eternal life by believing in Jesus Christ and trusting Him as our Savior. Not by eating the tree of life.

We read in verses:
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Titus 2:1-2 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

1John 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

1John 5:11-12 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

The “tree of life,” as we find it in Revelation 2, 21–22, is always a reference to a tree that people get life out of by coming to it and eating. They receive this right to come and eat by works, “by doing the commandments.” Therefore, Revelation 2:7 cannot apply doctrinally to a Christian.

There are three groups of people in the Bible: The Gentiles, the Jews, and the Body.

Although 2Tim 3:16 says, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." But for the doctrine application, we have to discern carefully. For example, under the 10 Commandments, Jews have to observe the Sabbath; do we, Christians, need to? Or are we under the 10 Commandments?

LR misapplies doctrines to the three groups and causes confusion. Overcomer theory is one of them.

[UntoHim]

Aside from Revelation, is the tree of life mentioned by the Lord Jesus or any of the scripture writing apostles in the New Testament? No. Not one mention. If Christians needed to eat the tree of life to get eternal life this would notion would be very prominent in the New Testament....just sayin...
-

[Bible-believer]

When reading Lee's "The Overcomers" Chapter 6, it says,

The composition of the overcomers:
1. The overcomers crying to the Lord for His avenging at the fifth seal, comprising all the martyrs from Abel to those before the fifth seal—Rev. 6:9-11.
2. The man-child born of the universal woman—12:1-5: Comprising the martyrs who cry at the fifth seal and the additional martyrs before the great tribulation. To be resurrected and raptured to the throne of God before the three and a half years of the great tribulation—vv. 4b-6.
3. The one hundred forty-four thousand living overcomers raptured before the great tribulation to Mount Zion in the heavens before God’s throne as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb—14:1-5.
4. The martyrs in the great tribulation under the persecution of Antichrist resurrected and raptured to stand on the glassy sea close to the end of the great tribulation—15:2-4; 13:7a.
5. The two witnesses martyred, resurrected, and raptured to the heavens in the cloud at the close of the great tribulation—11:3-12.

In short, there are two kinds of overcomers:
1. Alive: only 144000. (Being raptured alive)
2. Dead: Martyrs of various times. (Be resurrected and then raptured)

I found it is interesting.

First, Lee was dead, so he was not included in the 144000.
Second, he died naturally, not martyred.

So, Lee was not an overcomer according to his definition.

Lee stated he was the minister of the age, the oracle of God, and he opened the Bible, published tons of writings; he failed to be an overcomer, according to his publication.

[Nell]

So Bible-Believe, do you think your question “But do we, Christians, need to eat the tree of life to get eternal life?” Can come closer to a truthful answer by first determining the nature (descriptive or prescriptive) of the verses you’re citing?

“Descriptive or Prescriptive?

An issue that plays a major role in understanding the Bible is the distinction between what’s descriptive and prescriptive.

Descriptive writing tells us what’s going on. Sarah laughed; Moses threw down the tablets; Samuel anointed David the next king of Israel. (Send the letter to the church in Ephesus)

Descriptive writing does not intend to offer instruction or opinion on a particular matter. The author is relaying what happened or what was said. Think of it as a description of the painting.

Prescriptive writing on the other hand intends to tell us to do or not do something. The Ten Commandments are prescriptive. The worship practices of Leviticus are prescriptive. When Jesus says “Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matt. 5:48) he’s speaking prescriptively. Think of it as a prescription for medicine from a doctor.

The problem comes when we mix these up—when we think that the Bible’s description of circumstances directs us to do the same, or at the very least, grants us permission. We find examples in Abraham’s life. Twice he lies to kings saying Sarah is his sister and not wife. Both times the kings uncover his lie. Yet, despite their anger, they shower him in riches as they send him away. These stories are not prescribing a get-rich-quick scheme. These passages describe what happened and how God worked Abraham’s sin and folly for the good of him and his family.”

It might be helpful, on another topic, to determine how many of Witness Lee’s teachings are based on turning a description into a prescription/command to be obeyed. One church one city, for example, is a classic.

Nell

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Nell

So Bible-Believe, do you think your question “But do we, Christians, need to eat the tree of life to get eternal life?” Can come closer to a truthful answer by first determining the nature (descriptive or prescriptive) of the verses you’re citing?


It might be helpful, on another topic, to determine how many of Witness Lee’s teachings are based on turning a description into a prescription/command to be obeyed. One church one city, for example, is a classic.

Nell

--------

Originally Posted by Trapped

And I guess my musing response to your question is.....if we don't need the tree of life, why would God bother putting it in the holy city? If it still serves the same purpose, but we don't need it.....then who does?
I know the nations are healed by its leaves....but Revelation still speaks of it producing fruits every month. My assumption, and I think it's a reasonable one, is that those fruits are for the believers. It producing new fruits every months seems to indicate to me that we are to continually eat of its new produce......thus the way we continue on in eternal life, just like Adam/Eve would have if they hadn't disobeyed.
But maybe I'm making assumptions that aren't really stated in Scripture. I don't know. What did you have in mind, or what are your thoughts about why the tree of life is there?

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

I do have some thoughts, and I try to organize them together. I'll start a new post regarding this subject when ready. (Avoid getting STG's post off track.)

---------
Trapped and I talked about the "tree of life" in STG's post. We talked about who needed to eat it.

I believe we, Christians, don't need to eat the tree of life, for we have the Eternal Life already. In my post, I listed verses for my stand.

Yes, there are descriptive and prescriptive, but when coming to "doctrines," as I said, we have to discern and apply carefully. That's why I started the topic with a question and then listed the scriptures for answers. And, of course, it's my thoughts, and I certainly believe I don't need to eat the tree of life to get eternal life. I never agreed with LR's overcomer- theory.

Anyway, we are exchanging our thoughts and opinions. I am not a Bible teacher, yet a believer and student. What I share here is my view, and I never have the intention to force it on others.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Nell

So Bible-Believe, do you think your question “But do we, Christians, need to eat the tree of life to get eternal life?” Can come closer to a truthful answer by first determining the nature (descriptive or prescriptive) of the verses you’re citing?



It might be helpful, on another topic, to determine how many of Witness Lee’s teachings are based on turning a description into a prescription/command to be obeyed. One church one city, for example, is a classic.

Nell

Amazing! Thanks Nell!
These was my recent topics.
One young sister is convinced to celebrate Sabbath. She used Gen. 2.3-4. I had some felling that it was not a case. There was :
Gen.2.3 And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it; because that in it he rested from all his work which God had created and made.
We do not see anywhere prescription to celebrate it. Reason to celebrate for Jewish was explained by Moses. But it was centuries later.
But this recognition is very helpful for me. I could not name it. Small thing but now it is clear.

I study now ten virgins. This matter of leafs is very crucial.
For now I follow all of You to see something more than in footnotes.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Nell

It might be helpful, on another topic, to determine how many of Witness Lee’s teachings are based on turning a description into a prescription/command to be obeyed. One church one city, for example, is a classic.

Nell

Well, you reminded me of a Bible teacher who once said that every verse has three applications: Historical, doctrinal, and spiritual.
I think Lee's problem was not merely mixing up descriptive and prescriptive. He twisted the words and forced them to fit his "doctrinal" interpretation or opinions, and that's chaotic.
For example, James 1:1 Lee's remark said,

The tribes of Israel. This indicates that this Epistle was written to the Jewish Christians, who had the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ of glory (James 2:1) and were justified by faith (James 2:24), regenerated by the word of truth (v. 18), and indwelt by the Spirit of God (James 4:5), and who were members of the church (James 5:14), awaiting the Lord's coming back (James 5:7-8). However, for the writer to call these believers in Christ "the twelve tribes," as God's chosen people were called in His Old Testament economy, might indicate that he lacked a clear view concerning the distinction between Christians and Jews, between God's New Testament economy and the Old Testament dispensation. Perhaps he did not see that in the New Testament God had delivered and separated the Jewish believers in Christ from the Jewish people, who were then considered by God a perverse generation (Acts 2:40). In His New Testament economy, God does not consider the Jewish believers to be Jews set apart for Judaism but Christians set apart for the church. As members of the church of God, they should be as distinct and separate from the Jews as they are from the Gentiles (1 Cor. 10:32). Yet James, a pillar of the church, in his Epistle to the Christian brothers still called them "the twelve tribes." (This might have been the reason that he addressed the word in James 5:1-6 to the rich class in general among the Jews.) This was contrary to God's New Testament economy. See note James 2:21.

But the verse says, "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting."

Are the 12 tribes equal to Jewish Christian? Why didn't Lee stick to the verse itself?

And the interesting part is Lee interpreted the 12 tribes as Jewish Christians, then blamed James for lacking a clear view between Christians and Jews, between God's NT economy and the OT dispensation.

Well, I am looking forward to the day when Lee meets James. James would ask Lee, "Why did you change my words and then blame me for your interpretation?"