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| Apologetic discussions Apologetic Discussions Regarding the Teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee |
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08-03-2021, 01:39 AM
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#1 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 167
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Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
Hi all, I am new here.
As I told the Admin that I am still a current member of LC. However, I can't go along with them in many ways, and the "title" question is one of them. I asked questions, but no responses from other members or elders could solve my confusion. They just gave a piece of writings from Lee's. Please help me on this matter. Thank you. |
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08-03-2021, 05:13 AM
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#2 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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I went along with lots of things LSM taught until they decided to excommunicate "greater Ohio." That's when I started comparing these teachings with the Bible. Are they now teaching a "Processed 4in1" God? The Catholic church has a variant of that which includes Mary. I no longer accept any teaching outside of scripture. Why? It's too dangerous. All of these recovered conjectures and inferences about God are not healthy for His children. As you say in your handle "Bible believer," the Bible is the entire extent of what we should believe.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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08-03-2021, 09:17 AM
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#3 | |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,523
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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What has helped me the most in evaluating the teachings in the local church are to ask these questions: 1. What does Lee/ministry teach? 2. What does the Bible actually say? (or, does the Bible actually say that?) Do you have any examples of the writings from Lee that the elders/members pointed you to regarding this four-in-one teaching? If so, we can look at his claims directly. Otherwise, I still have some thoughts about the teaching, but if we have ministry excerpts to look at I think it's best to start with what Lee claimed and how he supported his claims first. Trapped |
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08-03-2021, 10:53 AM
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#4 |
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Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,824
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
Bible-believer,
Welcome to the forum. My goodness, you really picked a doozy of a subject right off the bat! Congratulations, my friend, for the very fact that you are asking the question means that God is doing a work in you! While I agree with Trapped that the first step in answering your question is to do some comparing and contrasting of the teachings of Witness Lee with the actual text of the Bible, this chore is complicated because Lee taught a scriptural/orthodox version of the Trinity (re: Triune God) along side of this unscriptural version. When one points to the unscriptural aspects of this teaching, then one is met with a barrage of examples where Witness Lee taught the traditional, orthodox version. This has been a typical diversionary tactic employed by false teachers and their followers since the beginning. My suggestion would be to challenge the Local Church's premise that Witness Lee's teachings were/are "recovered truth", and that he was/is the "One Minister with the One Ministry for the Age". This premise is provably false. And the sooner you can dispel this myth, if only in your own heart and mind, the sooner you will find the answer to this question, and so many other questions that face all of us influenced by the teachings of Witness Lee. May the Lord honor your seeking Him and his Truth. We are here to honor and encourage your seeking the truth as well. -
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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08-03-2021, 01:47 PM
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#5 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 361
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
Im a pretty recent leaver of the LR, and have never heard the 4-1 doctrine, but that sounds pretty incorrect. Who’s the 4th?
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08-03-2021, 01:52 PM
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#6 |
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Guest
Posts: n/a
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
Witness Lee on the four in one God:
Ultimately, the church is a group of people who are in union with the Triune God and are mingled with the Triune God. The Triune God and the church are four-in-one. Because the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are all one with the Body of Christ, we may say that the Triune God is now the “four-in-one God.” These four are the Father, the Son, the Spirit, and the Body. A Deeper Study of the Divine Dispensing p.203-204 Because the believers are incorporated into Him, He as the heavenly ladder serves as the personal bridge to the Triune God, incorporating in Himself the Divine Trinity and the believers. This is the very center of the universe, for in Him God and man are joined together, and the ministrations of God are focused on Him as this heavenly bridge. Within Himself He incorporates the unique enterprise of God’s economy, that is, the Triune God operating through Him by the Spirit in the believers for the manifestation and expression of God the Father on the earth. …In this way the believers become the reproduction, expansion, and physical continuation of the incarnate and incorporate Son of God and indeed the organism of the Triune God Himself. The Johannine Jesus as Bridge and Model for the Incorporation of the Believers into the Divine Trinity (2) - Kerry Robichaux The salvation of God is not primarily to save us from hell and to bring us into heaven, but rather to impart His divine life into us. By regeneration, we receive His divine life into our spirit. From our spirit, He is spreading into our soul by the process of transformation, and at His second coming, He will even saturate our body. Faith, Regeneration and the New Creation New Jerusalem is actually a corporate person who includes the processed and consummated Triune God and, as the issue of God’s complete salvation, all the chosen, redeemed, regenerated, sanctified, renewed, transformed, built-up believers in Christ. The Gospel in Romans (Source/Citation needed) |
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08-03-2021, 03:16 PM
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#7 | ||
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Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,824
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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#2 Since the scripture writing apostles, no one person in church history has ever met the qualifications to claim such a lofty title. If fact, any man who has ever claimed such a thing for himself has invariably been found to be a fraud, shyster, huckster and false teacher. Unfortunately, men like these are a dime a dozen in church history. #3 Witness Lee had repeatedly disqualified himself as an elder of a local church, and therefore was even more disqualified from being a leader of an entire Christian organization of any kind. It should go without saying that he had no business being the chief theologian/teacher of an entire Christian movement. -
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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08-07-2021, 08:54 PM
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#8 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 167
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
Thank you, UntoHim,
I never agreed with "Lee was/is the 'One Minister with the One Ministry for the Age". I tried raising my doubts, but my doubts were ignored. Sometimes, in the meeting, if I said something different from Lee's teaching, I saw negative in their faces. Gradually, I say no more. I attend the meetings, but do not enjoy it. I persuade myself that I attend the meeting for the Lord, not anyone else. Of course, I will seek Him and His truth always. Thank you for encouraging me. |
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08-05-2021, 09:21 PM
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#9 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 167
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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"The Bible reveals that God is immutable in His essence and that God has been processed in His economy. As the processed God, the Triune God has passed through crucial and interdependent steps in the divine economy in order to dispense Himself into His chosen and redeemed people…God’s process ultimately is related to becoming flesh through incarnation and becoming the life-giving Spirit through resurrection." Our Unchanging, Processed God “the Christ in whom we believe is the center of the Triune God.” Because of this, “the Triune God became mingled with man… He is not only the Triune God but also a man… He is the Triune God mingled with man. Therefore, He is the Triune God-man." Witness Lee, The All-Inclusive Spirit of Christ (Los Angeles: The Stream Publishers, 1969), pp. 8-11 It's like in this process is the Triune God becoming flesh. Jesus Christ is not the Second Person of the Trinity. Instead, “the Christ in whom we believe is the center of the Triune God.” It's like in this process is Jesus, the Triune God-man becoming the Spirit. If so, does it means they are not separate "three Persons", but just one? If so, does it means they are not separate "three Persons", but just one? and if so, is the teaching of Triune God the same as the Trinity? Maybe I didn't make myself clear on this matter, but you can see how confused I am about this teaching. |
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08-05-2021, 11:15 PM
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#10 | |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,523
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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Others can and have said this more clearly than I will be able to, but Lee taught contradictory things about God. He simultaneously taught that the three of the Trinity are distinct while also saying that they actually are each other. This is a logical contradiction and has led to a lot of things being written about what Lee "actually" believed as people tried to sort out his confusing teachings. So the first thing I have to say is that you are right to be confused! The problem is not you, and the problem is not that you don't understand something that you should. The problem is that Lee was not a good Bible teacher, he had no one to correct him, and he taught lots of things wrong. This is one of them. The concept of the entire Triune God becoming flesh has been a contentious one. I think that is even one of the issues that other Christian scholars have had with the local church - Lee's teaching that the entire Triune God became flesh and the entire Triune God became processed. But your name is Bible-believer, so let's remember what the Bible says. The Bible says that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. It does not say that God so loved the world that He sent Himself in His entirety. Or that God so loved the world that He gave Himself as the Trinity. It says He sent His Son. Jesus. The Son of God. When Jesus was on earth, He repeatedly claimed to be the Son of God. He did not claim to be "the entire Triune God". Yes, the Father was in Him and with Him, and He did the will of the Father, and when you saw Jesus you saw the Father, but Jesus never said He was the entire Triune God. When Jesus was on the cross, He cried out asking why God, His God, had forsaken Him. God who forsook Jesus on the cross was God the Father. The Bible does not describe a situation where "in His essence" the Father was actually on the cross too, but "in His economy" the Father forsook the Son. The only record is that God the Father forsook His Son, who was on the cross dying for our sins. Where the Bible shows distinctions, Lee dragged them together and mushed them into one. He should not have done that. The Bible uses words and metaphors in ways that help us understand what's being said. When Jesus says He is the bread of life, or the water of life, that means something to us because we know what bread and water are in our physical life. And when we talk about God the Father and Jesus, His Son, we can grasp that because we know what a father and son relationship is in our human life. And in no instance in our human life are a father and his son ever actually just one person. They are always distinct persons from each other. So no, the Father and Son are not actually just one person. There's more to say on "the Triune God-man becoming the Spirit" but I'll have to do that later, or maybe others can chime in. Is any of that more in line with addressing your confusion? Let me know if I'm in the ballpark, or if not, what I'm missing. Trapped |
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08-06-2021, 08:51 PM
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#11 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 167
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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08-07-2021, 05:31 PM
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#12 | |
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Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,824
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. My friend, Bible-believer, I am here to tell you that it is not your fault that you are confused. You are confused for a good reason. You are confused because Witness Lee was confused. The Athanasian Creed uses the term "confounding the persons", but in modern English it is actually "confusing the persons". Witness Lee confused the Father with the Son. Then he confused the Son with the Spirit. When Lee was challenged about his heresy, he called his detractors "blind moo-cows" who did not have an ear to hear "the heavenly music". Instead of coming up with some sensible, biblical logic behind his teachings, he always resorted to insulting his critics. Then just when one wouldn't think that things could get worse, Witness Lee taught that "Because the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are all one with the Body of Christ, we may say that the Triune God is now the 'four-in-one God'." This is rank heresy. Nowhere did the Lord Jesus or the Scripture writing apostles even faintly imply that the Body of Christ is to be considered part of, or equal to, the Trinity. This kind of nonsense springs directly from Lee's notion that "the believers become the reproduction, expansion, and physical continuation of the incarnate and incorporate Son of God" (as quoted by LSM spokesman Kerry Robichaux) Again, nowhere did the Lord Jesus or the Scripture writing apostles ever teach such a thing. In the coming days I hope to be providing some examples of healthy, orthodox teachings and views regarding the Trinity. I think that Trapped has got us off to a good start with post #15. -
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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08-15-2021, 07:04 PM
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#13 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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I now believe that we were in the grip of some kind of sorcery. How could so many otherwise intelligent people fall for such a cheap, blatant con? We were under a spell, stripped of our God-given sensibilities.
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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08-16-2021, 12:04 AM
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#14 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 167
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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08-16-2021, 06:14 AM
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#15 | ||
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Admin/Moderator
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Location: Texas
Posts: 2,100
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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What should you do? We can't tell you what to do. As a Bible-believer, you know to pray. This is the greatest failure of following Witness Lee. We don't learn to pray. We learn to "shut up and do as you are told." From Aron: Quote:
The Bible says this: 2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 1 Peter 5:8 Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Pray that your heavenly Father will lead you and guide you. If your heavenly Father is leading you to leave...you can leave. Talk to Him and learn to hear and obey him. Blessings to you, Bible-believer, on your journey to come. Consider talking to a Christian counselor. Learn to pray. Learn to hear and obey the voice of God. I often pray this prayer, even after I've been "out" much longer than I was "in" the LC. "Lord, please don't let me be deceived." Nell |
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08-16-2021, 07:26 AM
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#16 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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Watchman Nee: "The Bible is our only standard. We are not afraid to preach the pure Word of the Bible, even if men oppose; but if it is not the Word of the Bible, we could never agree even if everyone approved of it." When the Blendeds excommunicated the Midwest, Nigel Tomes wrote an article addressing this. This forum is filled with healthy Biblical exegesis exposing LC errant eisegesis. Apostle Paul regularly admonished the church to prove the will of God (Romans 12.2-3) and to test all things (I Thess 5.21). We should never just accept one man's teachings as gospel truth. The Bereans were esteemed because they examined the scriptures daily concerning Paul's ministry. Even Apostle Paul's teachings were tested, examined, and proven. Before my entire region was "quarantined," there was endless debate about whether the young people in the Recovery should study the teachings of Lee before reading the Bible (dangerous eisegesis method), or have a solid foundation in the scripture before reading Lee's messages (accepted exegesis method.)
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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08-16-2021, 07:51 AM
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#17 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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The Bible does provide much instruction for your journey. Paul's letters to Timothy are especially helpful. Paul said, "in meekness instructing." (2T 2.25) Equip yourself with the truth (2T 3.17) Get your heart ready for suffering (2T 3.12). The mental strongholds in the Recovery are indeed formidable. You cannot just reason or convince them with scripture, the Spirit of God must also trouble their heart. I believe many LC members have already received this "troubling." As Jesus Himself admonished us, "Watch and pray."
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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08-16-2021, 04:54 PM
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#18 | |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,523
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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I know how you feel. I have the same quandary. You feel like you have to say something, but the whole system is self-defeating in the face of someone saying something! And none of us wants to lose our friends or family, so we dance around the big elephant of the truth. So do you maintain the relationship for the sake of having the grounds with them at some point later on? Or do you sacrifice the relationship to speak the truth and be able to say "I tried"? I can't say much about how to handle family and friends because I think it's probably very specific one person to the next. But as a general "what do we do" about the local church as a whole.....I think the best thing is to get more and more word out on the internet. The local church's most used tool is control. And one of those types of control is information control. But at a certain point, some people in the LC will reach a breaking point. And constrained by the inability to talk to anyone about their concerns, they will go to the internet in desperation. And what a relief it is to go online and find out there are some people who see the same things you do, who see that those things are problematic like you do, and who put words to worries and thoughts you've been having! The more talking, writing, websites, blogs, videos, comments, posts, forums, etc there are talking about the local churches the better. It takes away one of their major tools. It shines light where it needs to shine. Trapped Last edited by Trapped; 08-16-2021 at 09:39 PM. |
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09-03-2021, 09:35 PM
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#19 | |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,523
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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My first thought is about the first excerpt you included from Lee's Our Unchanging, Processed God. Notice that Lee deftly says that God is "unchanging" and also "processed". This doesn't work. To process something by definition means it undergoes a change. Lee gets around it by saying God is unchanging in His essence but processed in His economy......but.......huh? To me, this is like saying I'm faithfully married when my eyes are open, but commit adultery when my eyes are closed, and yet try to claim that I'm faithfully married the whole time. It's an irreconcilable contradiction. God is God. He just is. Inside of time, outside of time, in His essence, in His economy. He is unchanging. He cannot be unchanging in His essence while be changing in His economy and still be said to be the God who does not change. So that's my first thought about Lee's assertion that God became Jesus who became the life-giving Spirit. The Bible is false if Lee's assertion is true. "Become" means change. But God is unchanging. Many people inside and out of the church have tried to take Lee or the ministry to task about that teaching because it's clearly modalistic, but Lee would just speak out of the other side of his mouth and claim the that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are ever co-existing and eternal even though he also taught they successively became each other.....both of which can't be true.......and that is not the sign of someone speaking the truth of God. My other thought was about last part of that excerpt about becoming the life-giving Spirit. This has been discussed in detail very well in several other threads somewhere on the forum, but we have to look at 1 Corinthians 15 to see how badly Lee bungled this teaching. Of course, 1 Corinthians 15:45 is, So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being” ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. Witness Lee tried to say that there is only one Spirit that gives life - the Holy Spirit, and so the life-giving spirit in this verse could only be the Holy Spirit. If I remember right, He called everyone else heretical for even thinking that the life-giving Spirit could be something other than the Holy Spirit. Two Spirits! How absurd! he said. But as you said earlier in this thread, a text without context is a pretext (as well as oftentimes a prooftext), and the context of 1 Corinthians 15 is about what kind of resurrected body we will have. The chapter very clearly contrasts our current natural bodies with our future resurrected spiritual bodies. Since Jesus was the first one to resurrect with a spiritual body, and Jesus is the one through whom we have eternal life, and Jesus is the life, He is therefore a "life-giving spirit" (not the Holy Spirit). It's really that simple. God is Spirit. Jesus resurrected with a spiritual body. We have the Holy Spirit. There's a lot of spiritual things going on in the unseen, spiritual realm. We can speak of a spirit and not be bound to mean the Holy Spirit every time. So God did not become Jesus who became the life-giving Spirit. Lee was wrong here too. Shocker. Hopefully that helps address some of the confusion you initially posted about. Trapped Last edited by Trapped; 09-04-2021 at 12:22 AM. |
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09-04-2021, 09:20 PM
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#20 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 167
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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Regarding my question, I consulted a brother. He said that Lee had his own set of expositions, but that set of expositions often lacked biblical facts and logic and were often crude conclusions and self-righteous opinions. Lee had created many "terms" and many "adjectives" to illustrate his point of view. That repetitive and lengthy vocabulary often makes people fall into his frame before they have a chance to figure it out. Therefore, the best way is to get out of Lee's frame and hold on to the Bible itself. I agree with him. As you said, "Unchanged" and "Processed" are incompatible. As simple as that. |
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09-07-2021, 04:02 PM
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#21 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,075
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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John 1: 14a: "And the Word became flesh..." If "Unchanged" and "Processed" are incompatible then how do you interpret this verse? Thanks, Drake |
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08-04-2021, 12:35 PM
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#22 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 53
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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But I found these ear-tickling teachings meaningless in my daily life. The pride I felt in having "deeper understanding" or even the excitement of walking up to the edge of heresy without crossing over didn't matter in real life. Getting caught in the swirl of "is it scriptural or not" is a trap. Considering "what does this matter, anyway?" was what saved me from the endless doctrinal debates. |
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08-04-2021, 01:18 PM
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#23 | |
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Posts: 361
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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08-04-2021, 01:52 PM
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#24 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,523
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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One thing that struck me about the excerpts was that they were chock full of Lee's specialized language - mingling, incorporation, God's economy, expansion, reproduction, corporate, processed, consummated. The Bible doesn't speak this way. It says "I in you and you in Me". It says "that they all may be one even as we are one". Lee created a whole new language that took a lot of liberties with the simply-stated concepts in the Word. When he strings all the special vocabulary together, he produces something not found in scripture! I don't have time to go through all the excerpts at once, but let's look at the first one, quoted above. My main question is going to be "where does the Bible ever talk about a four-in-one God?" Read Paul's writings. There is one God and Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ. Is there EVER a time when a single apostle, Jesus, or any other disciple speaks of or makes the slightest reference to a future "four-in-one" God? I mean, anywhere? Jesus' prayer is that we would be one. In what way? Just as the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. And also that we would be in both the Son and the Father. This does not describe "mingling". It describes things that are in each other. To say this is a "mingled" situation takes it past what scripture says. The Son and the Father are one and are in each other. But they are still a Son and a Father. The Son doesn't become the Father and the Father doesn't become the Son. As believers, we are in God and God is in us, but God does not become us and we do not become God. "Mingling" blurs the distinction between Creator and creation, and that's not something the Bible does. To be fair, the sentence right after this excerpt Lee states, "The three of the Divine Trinity cannot be confused or separated, and the four-in-one also cannot be separated or confused." But with these kinds of statements, Lee has elevated us to the status of the Godhead, while simultaneously saying "not in the Godhead". Many of his teachings are self-contradictory one place from the other. A few sentences later Lee says the "Father....continually dispenses Himself into us." This is, literally, meaningless. Where on earth does the Bible say God "dispenses Himself" into us? To be "one with God" or to be "in God" or to have God in you does not mean that you are now God. Witness Lee says "we may say that the Triune God is now the four-in-one God". But look, the Triune God, or three-in-one God, is usually described as the Father, Son, and Spirit each being fully God. To parallel that and say that we are now the four-in-one-God necessarily implies that we are also now fully God. Hopefully I don't have to explain why this is heresy. Sorry, but Witness Lee or anyone may say whatever they want to say, but if Scripture doesn't also say it, they are wrong! To be one with God means you are one with God. You are you, and God is God, and you are one with Him. To be in God means you are in God. Neither of these things mean you are "part of a four-in-one God". I eat chicken sometimes. Does the chicken being inside me mean I am "part of a two-in-one chicken"? This is Lee's logic here. |
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08-05-2021, 09:34 AM
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#25 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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One young brother in his excitement says, "We are what we eat, if I eat chicken, then I become a ... " He caught himself at the last moment, realizing what he was saying. His face turned red and he wanted to disappear, a few laughs came from the audience, and then we moved on. So much for being a WL tape recorder.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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08-05-2021, 02:35 PM
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#26 | |
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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Can you explain at all what your own issues are with this teaching? You mentioned your confusion. Are there confusing things with the teaching? Or do you just not agree with it? What is the part you can't swallow? Trapped |
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08-05-2021, 08:45 PM
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#27 | |
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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The Trinity is one God existing in three Persons. The body of Christ is his church composed of believers. Believers are human, not God. We believe in Him and have Him indwelled. But it never means we can be God. |
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08-16-2021, 08:45 AM
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#28 |
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Location: Fort Lauderdale Florida
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
Greetings Bible believer,
You can't un-see what has been seen. In other words you can't un-see what has been revealed. You are stuggling with Revelation. Seek The Lords leading and you will find understanding, peace and safety. Holy XOXO'S! |
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08-16-2021, 09:24 AM
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#29 |
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Location: Natal Transvaal
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What is sound doctrine?
What is sound doctrine?
God raised Jesus from the dead. All four gospels teach this, Paul teaches it, so do the other epistles. Jesus' blood is our propitiation before God. Because of his resurrection, God showed His approval of Jesus as our Redeemer. This is clearly taught: "His blood makes us clean". We should repent of our sin, confess, and believe, being baptized into the name of the Son of God. Here already it gets tricky because you get "name" and then "persons" and then "essences" and so forth. So even here, I get cautious. Doctrines will pull you away from your fellow human being, shrivel up all your love. James teaches that true doctrine is to keep ourselves from sin and to visit widows and orphans in their afflictions. In other words, it's not parsing's of words, of "essences" and "energies" but the love outpoured, which reached us, which now flows through us to our nearby sojourners. We only have a brief while, so let us love one another. The rest of it, the "processed" and "consummated" stuff is all over the place, and WL could traffic in words because so many have as well. It's an old scam, as old as gospel preaching. The solution? It's all about One Person. He is not hidden. The word is near, in our mouths, in our hearts, that we confess, that Jesus is Lord. The rest of it is, at best, distraction, and at worst a stumbling. So then why the conversations that I presented earlier, about whether 'intensification' is seen as part of Paul's encouragement to Timothy (or anywhere else)? Because by that pragmatic outworking, that ability to cut straight the word, we're preserved from being taken captive by the merchandisers. We'll keep ourselves safe, and maybe some will hear God. But at the least, we're preserved from the ear-tickling enchantments.
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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08-16-2021, 11:34 AM
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#30 |
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
The entire movement of the Lord’ Recovery is predicated on Witness Lee being the minister of the age or apostle of the age. So no matter how much you reveal to members of the Lord‘s recovery they will always fall back on that idea. That this specific man received divine revelation and while they might not see it that revelation.. he saw it.
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08-16-2021, 12:33 PM
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#31 | |
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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08-16-2021, 08:55 PM
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#32 | |
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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I don't think Lee was an apostle receiving the divine revelation at all, but just a man who came up with his own interpretation regarding the Scriptures. Rev. 2:2I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: |
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08-29-2021, 10:11 AM
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#33 | |
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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Thanks for asking your question in this relevant thread. What is your understanding of this verse? 1 Corinthians 12:12 "For even as the body is one and has many members, yet all the members of the body, being many, are one Body, so also is the Christ." Thanks, Drake |
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08-29-2021, 10:58 PM
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#34 | |
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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A text without a context is a proof text. I understand Bible passages by comparing verses with verses in the contexts. There is one body. Paul, Peter, James, and John are in Christ and in God and are indwelt by the Holy Ghost (John 17:21–26). There is ONE BODY and one Spirit, and the same Spirit who baptized Peter, James, and John into it at Pentecost, baptized the Corinthians into it in 1 Cor. 12:13, and us, too. 1Cor. 12:11-12 “11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 1Cor.12:12-27 begins a practical discussion of the Body of Christ. Eph. 4:12 “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;” "There is One Body (the Church) and One Spirit (the Holy Spirit), even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord (Jesus), One Faith, ONE BAPTISM (of the Holy Spirit), One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." Eph. 4:4-6. 2 Cor.12:13-14 “13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.14 For the body is not one member, but many. The fact that the Church is a "Body" made up of "living members". Paul has illustrated v.14 in vss.15-17 that once a man is in the Body of Christ, he is a member. Paul, in v. 17, said that God has given a particular job to each member of the Body of Christ. Each Christian is to do the job the Lord has set for him to do. v. 18. We are the body of Christ, and Jesus Christ himself is the Head. The body does things according to the Head’s will (see v.11 the One Spirit's will). Vss. 22–23 are about the Body of Christ and about the cohesion of the Body, how it sticks together and operates together. It shouldn’t have any schism or splits in it. He likens it to a human body. V. 27, “Now ye are.” Definition: “the body of Christ.” Plural, “ye are the body of Christ.” There’s the one Body. There are many churches, but there is one Body that is THE Church, the Church of God. “and members in particular.” Why call the Church the "Body of Christ?" A body is for the manifestation of a personality. Christ, who is now in glory, can manifest Himself to the world through His Body THE CHURCH, so the world can see Christ in Christian believers, who are His Body. Paul said, “For to me to live is Christ”. |
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08-30-2021, 11:07 PM
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#35 | |
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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08-31-2021, 04:17 PM
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#36 |
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
Bible-believer wrote> "Sorry, there is a typo. It is "pretext" but not "prooftext"."
You can always Edit any post. The edit button is in the lower right hand corner of your posts. I put your edit in my reply to you. I love and appreciate that Edit button. ;-) |
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08-31-2021, 05:20 PM
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#37 | |
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
Quote:
No. Not always. You only have a few hours, maybe 12+, to edit your post before the Edit button goes away. But, you can always use the quote button in the lower right when replying to a post instead of typing: username wrote> “quoted text”. Love that Quote button! From FAQ: If you have registered, you will be able to edit and delete your posts. Note that the administrator can disable this ability as he desires. Your ability to edit your posts may also be time-limited, depending on how the administrator has set up the forum. Nell |
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08-31-2021, 04:06 PM
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#38 | |
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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Thanks Bible-believer for your reply. I've read and pondered it a few times and cannot disagree with any of it. Not that I was looking to find something to disagree with but rather to see if your understanding of 1 Cor 12:12 was similar to mine. So, rather than presume that it is I'd like to return to that verse and in future posts return to your excellent and relevant points in your reply. 12"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ." This verse states that our human physical body is like the Christ. We have a head and a body ...so also Christ. His body here refers to His corporate Body... the many members of Christ. The Head (Christ) and His Body (all the believers) are one in the same way that our head and bodies are also one. They are not only connected and attached but also are intrinsically one life and one living. Do you agree with my understanding of this verse? Drake |
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08-31-2021, 08:59 PM
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#39 | |
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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You forgot to say that only those in the Recovery are the body of Christ, and not those in "degraded Christianity." I heard that many times during my visits to Anaheim.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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08-31-2021, 10:18 PM
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#40 | |
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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That's the comparison. That's the metaphor. (The exact opposite of "having no individual distinction" that Witness Lee taught concerning blending using that portion of Scripture, for the record). If you speak of "intrinsically one life" you are going beyond what scripture says in that portion. "Life" is nowhere mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12. The analogy to the human body is to show the variety of members working together as one, and stops well short of some kind of a head/body shared life. Our life is hidden with Christ in God. Christ lives in us. But we don't have "the life of Christ", and have to stretch scripture past recognition to make that claim in order to leapfrog into a "four-in-one God". As I mentioned previously in this thread, errors quickly build upon errors. If you google "we have the life of Christ", most of the search results are LSM related blogs or sites. The others are a small, random scattering of returns. Notice that Galatians 2:20 says that Christ lives in us. This is a completely different thing from the Lee claim that "we have the life of Christ". Notice that? Lee uses similar sounding biblical words to what is in scripture. But words and grammar mean something, and his juggling the words in a big blur in front of our eyes changes the meaning. Keep your eyes on what the Word says! Trapped |
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09-01-2021, 08:17 AM
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#41 |
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
I came across this article recently and thought it might be pertinent to the discussion of eisegesis vs. exegesis, taking verses out of context, etc.
“Never Read a Bible Verse.” https://www.str.org/w/never-read-a-b...nd%20uplifting. |
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08-31-2021, 09:11 PM
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#42 |
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
Anyway, I learned that I'd better get rid of Lee's or the Local church's teachings, spend time reading and studying the word of God. It's much more profitable and easier than figuring out if I am on the right track. That's what I am going to do from now on.
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08-31-2021, 09:34 PM
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#43 | |
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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Nell |
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09-01-2021, 08:52 AM
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#44 | |
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
Quote:
 Bible-believer... okay... let's read and study the word of God. If I teach anything that you do not believe to be in the Bible then call that out and let's compare scripture with scripture. I'll do the same. Obviously, 1 Cor 12:12 does not completely define what is meant by the title phrase... but in my view it provides clarity on the principle.... here is what I mean. 12"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ." Paul uses the physical human body to express the spiritual reality concerning Christ. Our head and body are one by an organic physiology and animated by our human life. Our physical body only functions because of the human life and without it we don't have a functioning body ..... rather there is only a corpse. In Paul's analogy of the human body he did not in this verse use the words "human life" but since he speaks of a functioning body then it is already presumed. A corpse has no ability to function and Paul saw no need to explain here that a human body must have life in order to function. The Corinthians knew that else Paul's analogy would make no sense. From the other verses you quoted about the Spirit I assume you and I are in agreement about this most basic and fundamental teaching of the Bible ----that He came that we might have life and have it abundantly (John 10:10) and Christ is our life (Col 3:4) and for us to live is Christ (Phil 1:21) If this basic truth is not understood then most everything in the New Testament would be closed to us because everything that pertains to the Christian life, the growth in the divine life, fruit bearing, the Body of Christ, and God's purpose issue from the seed of divine life that then grows in life (Matt 13:23). That began with our regeneration. Bible-believer, assuming we are in agreement about the the testimony of the Scripture concerning the life of Christ in us (if not we can backup before going forward) then we can examine how Paul applies the analogy of the human body to Christ. Just as a human body has a head and a body and lives and functions as an organic whole according to the life within so also the Christ has a Head and a Body, functions according to the life of Christ, grows with the growth of God. According to Eph 4:16 only that which issues out of the Head may be considered the Body of Christ. I'll pause to hear your point of view on this so far. Based on your previous response I am certain that we are in agreement on this part. But again, I do not want to presume. Thanks, Drake |
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09-01-2021, 02:45 PM
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#45 | |
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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Paul's message is simple. The body of Christ has tremendous diversity. Whether the numerous gifts of the Spirit, the diverse ministries in the body of Christ orchestrated by the Lord, or the many services and operations arranged by God Himself, all are needed and absolutely necessary. Paul emphatically reminded the Corinthians that even the less comely "problem cases" fit this category too. Then Paul points them to God's love, without which everything else is vain. Which reminds me of why I left the Recovery in 2005. The Blendeds had decided to excommunicate us for endless petty differences. The same kinds of meany matters that plagued Corinth. Did LSM learn from Corinth or Paul's letter to the church there? Absolutely not! We were 99.94% identical to other LC's, but that was not good enough for the Blendeds. Instead they send their agents from DCP to file lawsuits and divide the LC's in the Midwest over men. Each member here was forced to decide, "am I of W. Lee, or am I of T. Chu," just like the Corinthians. To my dear brother Drake, please read Paul's letter to Corinth. Listen to what he is writing. Please purge out all the leaven of Lee's teachings which conflict with Paul's truth. Stop micro-reading into verses and get the big picture. Read the context. Get the big picture: the Love of God! Sincerely in Christ, Your brother Ohio
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-01-2021, 02:48 PM
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#46 |
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
How I wish LSM would read this great message from W. Nee:
The Church of God includes a vast number of believers, living at different times, and scattered in different places throughout the earth. How has it come about that all have been united into one universal Church? With such differences in age, social position, education, background, outlook, and temperament, how could all these people become one church? What is the secret of the oneness of the saints? The Spirit who dwells in the heart of every believer is one Spirit; therefore, He makes all those in whom He dwells to be one, even as He Himself is one.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-02-2021, 01:20 PM
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#47 | |
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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You speak of the the head and body living and functioning "as an organic whole according to the life within". 1 Corinthians 12 never mentions a life within, or even Christ as the head. The word "head" appears only once and it is not in reference to Christ, but just in reference to being just another part of the example body (although Christ IS the head as taught elsewhere, it is just not the point in this portion). Paul does not mention the shared life creating an "organic whole" or anyone functioning "according to the life within". I could easily say "Paul did not need to mention that a human body lives and functions as an organic whole.......but it is obvious that any infection in the body could spread to the head too, so we need to make sure we as the body are healthy so we don't spread gangrene to Christ the head and cause Christ to die with the body. Paul didn't say that, or allude to it, or mention it at all, but it was obvious and so Paul didn't even need to say it.....just accept what I say!" But Paul isn't talking about any of that. Just like he's not talking about what you are stating. Paul is speaking of distinctions and varieties of members and gifts. Take an analogy outside of it's biblical bounds and you get deviated teachings. Even if it sounds good. Paul is saying just as a human body has many parts and is still one body, so Christ is the same way - His body has many parts with much variety and distinction one from the other, and yet is still one body. Find another verse to prop up the four-in-one God teaching. Trapped |
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09-02-2021, 09:53 PM
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#48 | |
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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1. Sorry, I don't see your argument relate to the topic of this post. 2. The context of 1Cor.12 is on the gifts of the Spirit. Chapters 12–14, as a unit, deal with the gifts of the Body of Christ. It starts with 12:1, “Now concerning spiritual gifts,” and ends with 14:40, “Let all things be done decently and in order.” Every member functions according to his/her gifts, so "whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." That is individual members growing so that the Body will grow into “maturity” (in the sense of Christ-likeness). |
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09-03-2021, 09:28 AM
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#49 | |
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
Quote:
You don't see how my argument relates to the topic of the post because of one very important reason........ I haven't done a very good job of explaining it! But be patient and maybe I'll get there. I Corinthians 12:12 in and of itself does not explain the phrase "the Processed, Four-in-One God". It does however by way of analogy show how Christ has a Head and a Body just like our head and body. The phrase "...so also is..." confirms that. v12 does not use the words "life" but it is understood ...for the body without life is a corpse. Just as John 15 speaks about the Vine and branches, the word "life" is not mentioned but it is understood that the branches are organically one with the vine... it is a life union. So with the Christ - the Head and the Body. You mentioned chapters 12-14 and said "That is individual members growing so that the Body will grow into “maturity” (in the sense of Christ-likeness)" Okay, ... but how? I Corinthians 12: 4-11 "But there are distinctions of gifts, but the same Spirit; And there a distinctions of ministries, yet the same Lord; and there are distinctions of operations, but the same God, who operates all things in all. But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for what is profitable. For to one through the Spirit a word of wisdom is given, and to another a word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit; to a different one faith in the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing in the one Spirit, and to another operations of works of power, and to another prophecy, and to another discerning of spirits; to a different one various kinds of tongues, and to another interpretation of tongues. But the one and the same Spirit operates all these things, distributing to each one respectively even as He purposes." The Body grows to maturity by the Spirit, carries out its ministries by the Lord, and it is God who operates all things in all. The Body of Christ functions through and according to the same Spirit in the one Spirit. It is the one and same Spirit that operates all these things by that operation becomes the Spirit is manifested. By these verses it is clearly stated that the Spirit, the Lord, and God operate in His many believers in an organic union to bring the many members of the Body of Christ into their God-given functions (gifts). The "Christ-likeness" you mention is really a manifestation of the Spirit and not just an imitation. It's not just something outward but something that issues out from God's operation within. Do you concur with that explanation, Bible-believer? Thanks, Drake |
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09-03-2021, 01:23 PM
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#50 |
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
Drake,
Your argument is off topic. No further explanation necessary. Please start another thread if you want to continue. We will move your “off” posts from this thread. Your alternative is to review the OP and post accordingly. BTW, please tone down your “teachie” approach to addressing others. This is a discussion forum, not a lecture hall. Nell |
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09-03-2021, 06:46 PM
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#51 | |
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
Quote:
Rom.8:17 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. " A pastor said if we did any good, it's not because of ourselves, but the indwelling Spirit who guided us into goodness. We should give the credit to Him, and I Amen to that. I appreciate your explanation and understand your points. However, every saved Christian has God's operation within doesn't mean every Christian is God. That's two different things. Things different are not equal. My question is not aimed at Br. Lee, but the teaching. I notice the method of his teaching, sometimes, was radical. i.g. "Four-in-one God". In an LSM publication, A Deeper Study of the Divine Dispensing (p. 54), Lee states, ”My burden is to show you clearly that God’s economy and plan is to make Himself man and to make us, His created beings, God.” On page 53 we read, “We are born of God; hence, in this sense, we are God.” To make radical statements and then balance them elsewhere in his teachings is not a good way, it's against the idea of “say what you mean and mean what you say.” We can apply Bible verses to daily life devotionally, but when comes to the doctrines, we have to be careful not to make the Bible say things it doesn't say. Br. Lee said that's his burden. Is his burden equal to God's burden? I am not sure. So I'd better ask the indwelling Spirit, the Spirit of truth, for the answer. He will guide me into all truth. |
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11-21-2021, 04:08 PM
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#52 | |
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
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Last edited by Russian95; 11-21-2021 at 04:09 PM. Reason: Grammar |
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04-24-2022, 11:05 AM
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#53 |
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Re: Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
While doing some research into some copyright information, I found this interesting book that was copyrighted by LSM. After further research, I found this snippet out of it on their website. Someone maybe already posted this here before, but in any case, I thought it would be appropriate to make it available for people to see.
The Situation Today We in the local churches hold that man may become God in God's salvation. We are persuaded by our study of the Word of God and by our understanding of God's economy. We are also confirmed by the ancient testimony of the church. But we are not alone today in our convictions, for great portions of the Christian community also believe and teach the same. Both the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church teach that man becomes God through Christian salvation. We offer the following quotations to document this. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, recently published by the Holy See of the Roman Catholic Church, presents the following: ARTICLE 3 “HE WAS CONCEIVED BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND WAS BORN OF THE VIRGIN MARY” Paragraph 1. The Son of God Became Man I. WHY DID THE WORD BECOME FLESH? 460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature” (2 Pet. 1:4): “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God” (St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 3, 19, 1). “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God” (St. Athanasius, De inc. 54, 3). “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods” (St. Thomas Aquinas, Opusc. 57:1-4). (Catechism of the Catholic Church, p. 116) Timothy Ware in his book The Orthodox Church gives the view of the Orthodox Church: The aim of the Christian life, which Seraphim described as the acquisition of the Holy Spirit of God, can equally be defined in terms of deification. Basil described man as a creature who has received the order to become a god [quoted above]; and Athanasius, as we know, said that God became man that man might become god. “In My kingdom, said Christ, I shall be God with you as gods” (Canon for Matins of Holy Thursday, Ode 4, Troparion 3). Such, according to the teaching of the Orthodox Church, is the final goal at which every Christian must aim: to become god, to attain theosis, ‘deification' or ‘divinization'. For Orthodoxy man's salvation and redemption mean his deification. (The Orthodox Church, p. 236) Even evangelical Christianity is not without a positive comment concerning man's becoming God. Although evangelical Christianity certainly does not emphatically teach that man becomes God in God's salvation, the following quotation shows that with proper qualification it need not, in their view, be deemed heretical. First, it should be pointed out that the phrase “little gods” may be unfortunate, but it is not necessarily heretical in and of itself, as long as it is not intended to convey that man is equal with, or a part of, God. The Eastern Orthodox Church, for example, teaches that Christians are deified in the sense that they are adopted as sons of God, indwelt by the Spirit of God, and brought into communion with God which ultimately leads to glorification. (Hank Hanegraaff, Christianity in Crisis, pp. 110-111) J. S.'s condemnation shows little knowledge of the history of this teaching, of the proper enunciation of this teaching, and of the acceptance of this teaching even today. Unfortunately, we suspect that the motive for the condemnation is laced with malice. If, however, there is a genuine ignorance, we hope that this presentation will serve to enlighten and direct each reader into the full knowledge of the truth. We eagerly await that day when indeed God will be “all in all.” Kerry S. Robichaux (The Truth Concerning the Ultimate Goal of God's Economy, Chapter 1, Section 10) So I guess I was correct after all that this idea of “man becoming god”, wasn’t some kind of “recovered truth”, but just stolen from Greek/Eastern Orthodox Church to begin with. No wonder the “We were Wrong producer” at CRI went there, rather than just joining a group that takes ideologies from somewhere else and claims as their own. He probably has a lot of time of his hands to do more research, and probably at least has an idea where all the rest of the “recovered truths” came from. Found this on: https://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pw...24121005&SID=1 Also, https://www.ministrybooks.org/Search...?id=20290BDD9E The book that it was originally taken from is called: The divinization of the Christian, according to the Greek fathers / Jules Gross ; translated by Paul A. Onica ; introduced by Kerry S. Robichaux & Paul A. Onica. Edition: 1st ed.
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“You never know how much you really believe anything until its truth or falsehood becomes a matter of life and death to you.” ― C.S. Lewis Last edited by Paul Vusik; 04-24-2022 at 12:21 PM. Reason: spelling correction. |
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