Minoru Chen: "Growth in The Local Church in USA flat since 1985"

[UntoHim]

Working Saints Fellowship - Thanksgiving Day Conference 2018, Charlotte, NC

Minoru's speaking starts at 1:10.00 (one hour, 10 minutes 00 seconds)

At some point, Minoru opines that "The Recovery in North America should have 250,000 saints by today, and at least 1,500 churches"....then, after admitting that what little growth has taken place has been mostly Chinese/Taiwanese imported from Asia, Minoru gives his assessment of how and why growth in the Local Church has been so stagnant - The reasons: Rebellion from within, and opposition from without. Minoru "From 1975 to 1985 we had our first major rebellion and the rebellion stopped us dead in our tracks as far as our growth is concerned, and not only so, it took away a lot of the younger generation that came in during the late 60s-early 70s. They were actually blown out. Also in the mid 70s there came a torrent of opposition began from the direction of Christendom" Then Minoru went on to blame the book "The Mindbenders". Then he admits "from 1985 to today our growth rate has been anemic to say the best".

Eventually Minoru breaks out with "In the Recovery in the USA today, we have one major burden and that is called: Increase!" Not "God's Economy". Not "Eating and drinking Jesus". Not "Living a Godman life for the building up of the local church". Just numbers. Just the increase.

What Minoru didn't mention is that for the first 20 years, from 1975 to 1995, the Local Churches were under the full control and authority of Witness Lee. The stagnation occurred under Lee's leadership and "ministry". Furthermore, for this next period of time, from mid-late 90s to today, the Local Churches are still under the ministry of Witness Lee. And the stagnation has continued. Many have testified on this forum that the Local Church has basically lost their entire 2nd generation here in America. This is my observation as well. Most local churches which were established in the 70s and 80s are composed of the older generation. The majority of the younger ones are Chinese/Asian young people imported from the Far East.
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[Weighingin]

It seems they can't think outside of the "box" of storms and rebellions when it comes to the lack of increase. Attempts have been made through programs such as GTCA, BFA, etc. to spread and gain increase. But they still do the practices of trainings, etc based only on Lee's ministry, with little or no change. RK has said when they fit different portions of the ministry together, there is new light.

The BBs don't seem to consider if their quarantine actions caused damage, heartbreak, etc to this part of the Body of Christ. But TC and DL(? In SA) also wanted to keep the sheep under their portion of the ministry. To be fair, it appears to be some reconsideration. MC has been saying that we are all one church. But as long as they stay in the box of the LSM, interpreted word, we are right based on the MOTA, I can't see any substantial new growth, at least in the USA. In other parts of the world, young people are attracted by these teachings they have never heard. But Christ uses what He can to regenerate men.

[Ohio]

Minoru has not a clue how to assess his own history of the LC. The first major error is the belief that Lee was the source of blessing. The second major error is that there ever was a rebellion in the Recovery.

[aron]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

At some point, Minoru opines that "The Recovery in North America should have 250,000 saints by today, and at least 1,500 churches"..

This estimate of numbers based on what? One of Witness Lee's messages? I remember one: "If you would each go out and blah-blah-blah, surely you would each gain two new ones within the next blah-blah. Then, those two new ones would go out and each get two more. Then, within 15 years, the whole earth would be taken and the Lord will come back!" And we'd all give our "amens" and "Huzzahs". The Accountant strikes again.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

..then, after admitting that what little growth has taken place has been mostly Chinese/Taiwanese imported from Asia, Minoru gives his assessment of how and why growth in the Local Church has been so stagnant - The reasons: Rebellion from within, and opposition from without...

What Minoru didn't mention is that for the first 20 years, from 1975 to 1995, the Local Churches were under the full control and authority of Witness Lee. The stagnation occurred under Lee's leadership and "ministry"..

I think immediately of Daystar. Not a rebellion instigated from within but a "move" instigated by none else but Witness Lee. Not an external persecution by 'Christendom'. Everybody did what they were told (except Sal Benoit, who asked where the $$ went, but that's another story).

Originally Posted by Don Rutledge

Life Ebbs at Elden

An interesting thing occurred in Elden hall which now was one of four halls in Los Angeles. Witness Lee and John Ingalls had stayed there. Up until then, many had equated the blessing on Elden with having the ministry of Witness Lee and to a lesser extent the ministry of John Ingalls. By early 1973 I began to hear of the staleness and flatness of the Elden hall church meetings. I visited there and frankly most of the new churches were much more on fire and lively in Christ than Elden was. Elden still had the ministry, but it was clear the blessing was not there. I heard Witness Lee state on many occasions that he needed to leave Elden, and that the Lord needed a new start with his ministry.

Eventually in 1974, Elden Hall was given up. The remaining saints in Elden moved to the city of Rosemead, and Witness Lee, John Ingalls, Max Rapaport and a few hundred others moved to Anaheim.

Anaheim never prospered and was a continual hole into which people and money were poured with no increase and no blessing. The Daystar experience was a great frustration to the move of the Spirit. In 1975, we were having a conference in Dallas. Before the meetings, we would pray in the large home on our property and then would walk across the parking lot to the large new hall we had just built. One evening I was walking with Brother Lee. He stopped, turned to me and then put his arm around my shoulder. (Never before and never since have I seen him embrace a brother. Thus, I realized he was about to tell me something very serious. He told me that he had made a terrible mistake with Daystar. He said that if he saw Brother Nee he would not know what to say since Brother Nee had warned him not to mix the church with financial matters or business. He then told me that he had once told Watchman Nee that he was not following him (Watchman Nee), but rather was following the truth and vision that Brother Nee taught. Furthermore, that he (Witness Lee) would not follow Watchman Nee if Brother Nee left the vision, but he (Brother Lee) would continue to follow the vision. He then looked me straight in the eye and charged me, “Brother Don, if I leave the vision do not follow me, but follow the vision.” I was a little speechless but I did manage to return the embrace and assure Brother Lee that I would remain true to the vision and the truth.

Daystar

Starting around 1972, Witness Lee expressed a concern for the financial suffering of the migrating saints and their need to be able to purchase proper meeting places. I was in a meeting of visiting elders and co-workers in which he introduced the Daystar business. He shared that his son Timothy had approached him about a business and that the business seemed to Witness Lee to be ideal for us (the local churches). The brothers and sisters could invest money, earn a nice profit of around 35%, and generate significant profit for the support of the new churches. He then spoke of manufacturing only the finest product. We could produce the product in Taiwan, which would help the believers there with employment and sell the product in the USA. He spoke at length concerning how the members of the churches should only invest their surplus and that he felt very positive that this was of the Lord. The business consisted of manufacturing and selling an expensive motor home. This was certainly a very different meeting than anything I had ever attended. I and others left with our heads spinning. I was bothered and asked James Barber what was going on. He replied that Witness Lee was God’s anointed and I should be very careful about criticizing. He declared that even if Witness Lee was wrong, God would bless the endeavor.

Shortly after this meeting, Witness Lee was scheduled to come to Houston for a conference in late 1972. I planned to attend. By that time I had left teaching for a sales job. The night before the conference I had a dream. I was sitting in the living room of Ben McPherson in Houston with Witness Lee. The other brothers in the room were very clear to me, as was where they were sitting. Suddenly, Witness Lee turned to me and said he wanted me to work for him in Daystar. In the dream, the Lord made it very clear I was not to take the offer. The next night there we all were, sitting in exactly the right seats. Witness Lee turned to me and offered me a job. Thank the Lord for the warning. I never worked for Daystar and never invested a dime.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Working Saints Fellowship - Thanksgiving Day Conference 2018, Charlotte, NC

Minoru's speaking starts at 1:10.00 (one hour, 10 minutes 00 seconds)

At some point, Minoru opines that "The Recovery in North America should have 250,000 saints by today, and at least 1,500 churches"....
-

In April of 1987 "Witness Lee's Statistics" were placed on a huge chart in Taipei. We were all assured that the entire world would be evangelized by 2000, when Jesus would return.

As with any mathematical / statistical modeling, it all comes down to "assumptions." Get those wrong, and anything can be predicted.

[Cal]

It's hard for me to imagine sitting in the audience listening to Minoru and not thinking, "Okay, enough is enough. If that's the best he can do I've about had it."

Minoru sounds terribly desperate to me. Blaming a minor, long-forgotten book that came out 40 years ago? Blaming the boogy men of opposition and rebellion? Not accepting any blame himself or for the leadership? Oh my goodness, I'm not sure I've ever heard denial this deep.

I just have a hard time seeing how any rational person would accept such a word.

Increase? How? By selling what? The same product that has not sold for 40 years?

Did anyone of them ever consider that the reason they are not growing is because the Lord doesn't want them to?

Sounds like the walls are cracking to me.

[Ohio]

Ten years ago they excommunicated most of the Midwest, which btw was the "most Caucasian" region in all of Recovery-Land.

Then they gutted Brazil, and most of the Portuguese-speaking world.

And Minoru Chen wonders why there is no growth?

[ZNPaaneah]

"The rebellion stopped us dead in our tracks as far as the prevailing growth is concerned."

"not only so, we were stigmatized as a cult."

I was in Houston during this time and while I was on campus I was "stigmatized as a cult" and it did not stop our gospel move at all. We had a higher growth rate than the 50% he quoted from 65-75.

The growth of 6% and then 3.7% is due to Asian people.

Were they saved in this country or did they simply immigrate from Asia to the US?

We went to Russia in the 80s and today (34 years later) we have 4,000.

“We just begin our hard labor in Germany no more than 3 years ago”.


I am pretty sure we had a saints laboring in Germany back in 1980, perhaps Minoru forgot.

By comparison he says the ministry is unimaginable riches, off the charts.

That to me was stunning when he said this. How do you look at this data and still claim that you are rich? I was taken aback looking at this video, what a poor little meeting hall. Every place I meet has audio visual equipment. If you want to put up a chart you can, if you want to show statistics you can, but this really poor graph scribbled on the blackboard without even erasing the other stuff, why so poor? Is this what happens when you siphon off all the saints donations to pay for your legal attack dogs?

I would like to hear from the Amen. The faithful and true witness.

Minoru pretends to know the story from when there were just 30 saints in the US. Let's hear from the beginning of Creation: "I know your works that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. Because you say 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing' and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked"

Can you imagine a new person coming into that meeting? It is a miserable, wretched meeting. No worship of the Lord. No praise, no testimony, just absurd guy on a chalkboard talking about how they should have had 500,000 saints by now. He clearly doesn't even know how wretched, miserable, poor and blind he is.

"I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see."

I hope we can all take the Lord's counsel to heart.

19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

I think all of us on this forum have been rebuked and chastened. Many of us have been zealous to repent, thank the Lord. I also think that many of us have heard the Lord knocking and opened to Him. Once again, thank the Lord.

22“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

[Cal]

This has to be some of the lamest excuse making I've ever heard.

"The rebellion stopped us dead in our tracks as far as the prevailing growth is concerned."

Ooooooo, dose wascaly webels! Dey stopped us dead in our twacks!

"not only so, we were stigmatized as a cult."

No, you were a cult.

Anyway, it seems to me the early church was called the "cult of the Nazarene" and they grew just fine.

What a pitiful display of whining, Minoru. I'm embarrassed for you.

"Hey guys, we've had some substandard growth for THE LAST 34 YEARS (!!!) so we might think about doing something about it. Anybody got any ideas?... Hey, wake up back there!"

You cannot make this stuff up, folks. You cannot make it up.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

1. I was in Houston during this time and while I was on campus I was "stigmatized as a cult" and it did not stop our gospel move at all. We had a higher growth rate than the 50% he quoted from 65-75.

2. MC: "The growth of 6% and then 3.7% is due to Asian people."

Were they saved in this country or did they simply immigrate from Asia to the US?

3. MC: “We just begin our hard labor in Germany no more than 3 years ago”.

4. Rev 3:22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

1. The young American people were questioning, 1965-75. The Vietnam War was a fiasco. Civil Rights, Women's Rights, the Environmental Crisis, Watergate. So "wisdom from the East" had a lot of attraction. Watchman Nee seemed like a bona-fide 'orthodox' Christian and he was 'mystical'. So young Americans got God without the traditional religious box. Jesus People and their ilk streamed in. The "face of the LC" in the USA was Caucasian (with a healthy mix of other 'peoples and tongues'). The local churches were arguably 'local', i.e. representative of the local folks.

2. Here's a website of what's more representative of LSM-affiliated local churches today: big city, several large unis nearby (MIT, Harvard, BU, BC).

http://www.churchincambridge.org/?page_id=18

On the web page it shows 10 young people playing basketball, hanging around the court and talking. 8 of them are Asian, 2 are black (I won't use the more pc "African-American" because they may be college students from Ghana or Kenya).

These young LCers are likely recent immigrants (grad students from China), or second-generation Asians (so-called "ABCs"). Where did all the Caucasians go? 40 years ago, the "face of the LC" in the USA was quite different. What happened?

What happened is that American culture is chock-full of questioning. The young especially want to challenge the status quo. This initially drew many of them in, 1965-75. Then they met Asian culture head-on: "Don't question". In Asian culture to question, especially openly, is disrespectful. But supposedly, the LC culture was free of human taint, so when WL told us, "Don't question - a question mark is shaped like a serpent", we (some of us, anyway) took it as from God. It wasn't. It was rather the imposition of an alien culture in disguise.

Now the second-generation Caucasians have left, because they were told that to question was "rebellion". So they said, "Okay, bye". But the second-generation Chinese stayed because it fit their culture. And the recent Asian immigrants of course like seeing a welcome and familiar culture. For them it's the best of both worlds: fully Western (Judeo-Christian) and fully Eastern.

The Chinese-flavored non-local church of Witness Lee in Cambridge... that's not a name, but a description, as their own website states. I daresay it's a more accurate description than the one they give themselves.

3. You began your 'hard labour' in Germany decades ago. The previous work was wiped out, not because of rebellion, but because the illogical idea of following an a non-local alien warlord and calling yourself a "local church" was exposed, and the Germans are nothing if not logical. So they bailed, en masse.

4. The whole idea of the exercise is to repent. We are fallen creatures, even when redeemed and regenerated, or "saved". Peter is my representative sample. His errors didn't end on the day of resurrection, when Jesus breathed into him and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit"; not even on the day of Pentecost, when tongues of flame burst over his head, and he spoke and thousands got saved. Later, we read that he was so "full of the Holy Spirit" that sick people would lay down nearby, hoping his shadow would pass over them (Acts 5:15,16).

Yet he still erred, as we do all - so, repent. Is MC taking the lead to repent, or is he just standing there, bullying people? Btw, WL taught us that "repent" meant not to feel sorry but to change your way, your systematic pattern of behaviours. Is the LC leadership willing to repent? Are they really willing to lead? Produce then fruit worthy of repentance.

[aron]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Minoru: "From 1975 to 1985 we had our first major rebellion and the rebellion stopped us dead in our tracks as far as our growth is concerned, and not only so, it took away a lot of the younger generation that came in during the late 60s-early 70s. They were actually blown out."

I'd like to focus on one particular "rebellion" as an example of what is at play here. The so-called "Sister's Rebellion". What was their crime? Drawing others unto themselves? Being "spiritual sisters" (RK's derogatory term)? Okay, then why base your movement prominently on the thoughts and activities of Jessie Penn-Lewis, Madame Guyon, Miss Margaret Barber, Miss Elisabeth Fischbacher, Mary McDonough, Ruth Lee et al.... ?

Now, look at what was actually happening on the ground in those days, what caused the initial growth in the USA. There is a 133-page ebook put out by Calvary Chapel showing what was going on all around Witness Lee and his self-obsessed ministry. Click here for the link, it's at the bottom of the page.

http://calvarycca.org/history/

Notice the similarities in the gospel outreach to the "glory years of the LC". Spontaneous joy overflowed onto the streets. Nobody was badgering members for 'increase'. This was a move of the Lord, independent of the self-styled MOTA, which he then co-opted for his own vanity projects, and ruined.