Paul, An Apostle of Christ movie take away

[Jo S]

Have any of you guys seen the movie, "Paul, an Apostle of Christ"? I saw it the other day and had a take away from it that I wanted to share with you all. I'd like to hear your thoughts as well.

I'm not going to comment on the cultural accuracy of the film but there was one historical aspect presented in the movie that particularly stood out to me.

If you didn't see the movie, basically it took place in Rome during the time Paul was imprisoned there shortly before his martyrdom.

This was also at a time Emperor Nero was brutally persecuting the Christian church.

There were scenes in the movie where it portrayed how Christians would all gather together in hiding to a specific place within the city in attempts to avoid being caught and executed by the Romans.

*Now as a side note, I'm somewhat familiar with the LC's teachings on locality but you guys would definitely know better than me however I understand it's basic premise.

Anyway, the climate in which these early churches met particularly stood out to me and I thought, "You know what? The LC is missing one major and particularly bitter ingredient in it's teachings on biblical locality......persecution"

I couldn't help but to notice how the elements of basic survival played a role in the gathering of the early churches. Safety in numbers....

The formation of the early churches just make more sense to me when you factor into the equation a necessity for presevation in a time where the very existence of the faith was challenged to the extreme. It may not be a pleasant variable but it was there nonetheless.

Compare this with the LC's move of the formation of local churches today. It seems based more on business strategy and the will of man rather than the elements that were present in early Christianity.

With that said, let me share with you an analogy;

I compare Christ's church to a precious stone. A diamond is beautiful but that beauty doesn't come easy. It takes tremendous amounts of heat and pressure over a long period of time to give a natural diamond the beauty and resilience it's known for.

On the other hand, take a synthetic diamond made in a laboratory. They are made in controlled enviroments to have the same chemical and physical characteristics that organic diamonds have but they only take a very short amount of time and fewer steps to achieve those same properties. However there's one thing that gives a fake diamond away; microscopic metallic inclusions left over from the manufacturing process.

I compare the LC and all other fleeting man-made movements to establish a "pure" Christianity on earth to synthetic diamonds. They are all formed over a short period of time and took only few processes to establish. To the naked eye, they look to be the real thing but upon closer examination you'll find the tell tale signs that show them to be false. In the end they won't retain any real value.

What makes a real diamond precious is not only it's rarity but the many organic processes and unique conditions that were present throughout it's formation.

Only the Lord can know how to form his church. Like many others here, I grow tired from seeing the condition of this world and cannot wait for the Lord's return, however, when we turn ourselves into a force with the intent to quicken his return historically nothing good has become of those movements.

"Here is a call for the patient endurance of the saints."

So to all those that pray for the body of believers to come together, as in biblical times, I say be aware of exactly what it is you are pray for. Nevertheless the Lord's will be done.

[Evangelical]

"There were scenes in the movie where it portrayed how Christians would all gather together in hiding to a specific place within the city in attempts to avoid being caught and executed by the Romans."

This really emphasizes the importance of locality. Christians gathered by location, not by belief/denomination.

"Compare this with the LC's move of the formation of local churches today. It seems based more on business strategy and the will of man rather than the elements that were present in early Christianity. "

I think the elements of a church which came from persecution are definitely there.

Historically the local churches were formed out of persecution in China. Later experiencing theological persecution in the West mostly from Christianity (by books being published calling it a cult etc, which caused more persecution in China).

This "persecution culture" is reflected somewhat in the local church style of meetings:

1)Plurality of elders (hence, the government cannot simply put the head priest or pastor in jail to destroy the church)

2)Emphasis on rote learning and remembering the Bible - necessary if Bible's are destroyed

3)Emphasis on praying effective short and sharp prayers and short words of encouragement - necessary if corporate prayer time is limited.

4)Minimal emphasis on fixtures and trimmings in buildings - meeting location may change at moment's notice or building may be destroyed.

5)No crosses out the front - no large advertisements advertising that it is a church.

6)Emphasis on home meetings rather than Sunday services - meetings can be held in a private and secure environment, safe from the government spies.

7)Praying with eyes open - the majority of people pray with their eyes open.

8)A persecuted mindset - the local churches stand against Islam, the Catholic Church and the state churches which traditionally have persecuted brethren churches and similar. As such there is a level of wariness.

So the local churches have been and still are a persecuted church today. This is reflected in their attitudes and style of meetings.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

"There were scenes in the movie where it portrayed how Christians would all gather together in hiding to a specific place within the city in attempts to avoid being caught and executed by the Romans."

This really emphasizes the importance of locality. Christians gathered by location, not by belief/denomination.

"Compare this with the LC's move of the formation of local churches today. It seems based more on business strategy and the will of man rather than the elements that were present in early Christianity. "

Have you not read any testimonies here?

How about the sister with children who had to travel 30 miles or the LC members would shun her. Read her testimony below.

Sounds like the "ground of locality" would have killed many a brother and sister in the early church.

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Unless we meet our sisters' qualifications for fellowship...meet a minimum of twice a month, and lunch with the sisters in the ministry on Fridays. This, by the way, to take place 30 miles from our home, where the Lee church meets, in order to be reinstated as worthwhile to meet with an old dear friend who lives within 5 miles of us.....what??? That is Deception talking the talk and walking the walk.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Only the Lord can know how to form his church. Like many others here, I grow tired from seeing the condition of this world and cannot wait for the Lord's return, however, when we turn ourselves into a force with the intent to quicken his return historically nothing good has become of those movements.

"Here is a call for the patient endurance of the saints."

So to all those that pray for the body of believers to come together, as in biblical times, I say be aware of exactly what it is you are pray for. Nevertheless the Lord's will be done.

Hi JoS,
I didn't see the movie so I can't speak to that. To the matter of the Lord forming His church I agree with you...He knows what He is doing. I really trust in His fellowship when I am before Him in prayer...and it was definitely His speaking, or what was actually His "pre"-speaking which I was able to then contrast with the pressure tactics...the pressure "fellowship" I was getting from the LC right before it all ended for us there....He gave me such a love for His body...I mean all the saints...I just ended up with this wish...to visit and fellowship with all His believers, the true body of Christ, that is, worldwide, believers in Jesus...this joyful desire to meet every one of my brothers and sisters in Christ bubbling up in me (and I believe I will in heaven)...this contrasted so sharply with the LC saints ernest desire to share Gods "hatred" of denominations...this was one contrast that really opened my eyes in my last days "in" the LC. I mean, He imparted His love for the body me in such a tangible way...and the LC simply doesn't match the Jesus I know. Truly, His sheep know His voice....and as for me, I trust His voice over and above even a genuine group of His own...which I know they are...only off His narrow way...

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

...this contrasted so sharply with the LC saints ernest desire to share Gods "hatred" of denominations...this was one contrast that really opened my eyes in my last days "in" the LC.

Hang in there sister. Pray for discernment.

The type of elitist mentality that's found within in the LC reminds me of what traditions tell of a younger Mohammed.

The story goes that the Mohammed of the Islamic faith had an angelic visitation and received a religious epiphany of some sort. His first impulse was to travel to Jerusalem and seek recognition from the Jews as a true prophet of God. Basically the tradition states that Mohammed was literally laughed out of the city by the Jewish leaders and since that time has held a deep hatred and resentment for the Jews. In retaliation he ended created his very own religion.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Only the Lord can know how to form his church. Like many others here, I grow tired from seeing the condition of this world and cannot wait for the Lord's return, however, when we turn ourselves into a force with the intent to quicken his return historically nothing good has become of those movements.

Good analogy of the natural and synthetic diamonds bro Jo S.

But don't tell those of the Restoration and Recovery movements that nothing good comes from their movements.

They actually believe they can reverse engineer back to the church in Acts. Don't tell them they are believing like the Cargo Cults.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by awareness

Good analogy of the natural and synthetic diamonds bro Jo S.

But don't tell those of the Restoration and Recovery movements that nothing good comes from their movements.

They actually believe they can reverse engineer back to the church in Acts. Don't tell them they are believing like the Cargo Cults.

To the LC's credit, there is the understanding of the importance of unity within the body of Christ looking beyond denominational status or creed. However, ironically this understanding has become an ideology rather than the result of an organic work of the Lord as we've read about in the early churches.

Things for Christians weren't as glamorous back then. For all of us in the US, we're living in relative peace and security so it's easy to have a disconnect from the realities our brothers and sisters faced in the early days or are now facing in the east.

For the Christians in biblicial times "locality" wasn't a practice or a doctrine, it was a necessity and essential for the faith's survival. These churches met on personal properties and lived together in quarters within cities or slums rather than having convenient sunday meetings in million dollar 501(c)(3) tax exempt facilities. For those in the LC that condemn Judaism, tax exemption began with Jewish synogogues in Rome.... So there's that. I'm not bashing tax exempt churches or meeting on Sundays but if you claim you're living out the bible, why not then go all the way?

This type of biblical unity we read about, I believe, can't be recreated in places where the faith isn't being persecuted. The intentions are admirable but what real reason is there for establishing a pattern of Christianity like the LC pushes to places as tolerant toward religion as the west is? In the end, it's no more than business because there isn't practical use for this type of mindset.

I believe the Lord has more use for his body in having true believers spread out amongst the denominations and non-denominational churches. In times of peace I believe that's a much better strategy, not only for preservation, but also for witnessing rather than having the entirety of believers in a particular city all under one minister like Lee or Chu. Even then, these men oversaw not just one city but many cities. This type of influence and control is dangerous.

You might argue, "Paul oversaw many churches".....Well, I'd say until Jesus Christ himself appears to you in blinding glory in front of multiple witnesses and then you go through the type of tribulations Paul has gone through to prepare him for this level of ministry then you really don't have an argument.

My point is that we may not see a true biblical unity of believers until the great tribulation or maybe even after when Christ returns, I don't know for sure. We most likely won't see any other "super apostles" or "MOTAs" perhaps until the two witnesses appear on the earth.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Jo S

This type of biblical unity we read about, I believe, can't be recreated in places where the faith isn't being persecuted..

Good point. I know of at least three times where Christianity was the dominant force in society. Legal, social, political, economic, philosophical, cultural.

1. In the fourth century, it covered the Levant. Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Greece, Turkey, Iran, Libya, Italy . . all were Christianised.
2. Europe under the RCC, pre-Reformation.
3. North America under the Protestants.

All three enjoyed unparalleled prosperity and complete hegemony. And for what. I find religion of the masses to be. . . hm. . . not so appealing.

God raised Jesus Christ from the dead on the third day. I know I've been repeating this lately, but it isn't a dead horse. It's the gospel. There is forgiveness and eternal life in the name of Jesus. Don't get distracted by the rest of it.

Paul went to the gentiles. He presented abstract principles. The Body. Etc. But don't let abstract principles make you look away from Jesus. Only Jesus saves. If you seek The Body you will go where the rest went before you. . . astray. Paul is good but don't let the letter of Paul usurp the Spirit of Jesus. We are too clever by half and Satan is cleverer still. Don't play into his hand. Stay in Jesus.

Peace.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by aron

Good point. I know of at least three times where Christianity was the dominant force in society. Legal, social, political, economic, philosophical, cultural.

1. In the fourth century, it covered the Levant. Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Greece, Turkey, Iran, Libya, Italy . . all were Christianised.
2. Europe under the RCC, pre-Reformation.
3. North America under the Protestants.

All three enjoyed unparalleled prosperity and complete hegemony. And for what. I find religion of the masses to be. . . hm. . . not so appealing.

God raised Jesus Christ from the dead on the third day. I know I've been repeating this lately, but it isn't a dead horse. It's the gospel. There is forgiveness and eternal life in the name of Jesus. Don't get distracted by the rest of it.

Paul went to the gentiles. He presented abstract principles. The Body. Etc. But don't let abstract principles make you look away from Jesus. Only Jesus saves. If you seek The Body you will go where the rest went before you. . . astray. Paul is good but don't let the letter of Paul usurp the Spirit of Jesus. We are too clever by half and Satan is cleverer still. Don't play into his hand. Stay in Jesus.

Peace.

I have to agree with this, Aron. There is something good about seeing the one body of Christ....which we are, in reality.

But there is something completely mental about one group obsessing on the one body and attempting to make it a physical reality on earth today. This reminds me of those unfortunate people who have a strange need to dominate and control others around them...it cannot and should not be done.

One simple reality is, it is completely impractical, to gather every christian on the planet under your own man made banner, and shun them if they don't comply....totally mental! We are already one body, the one body of Christ....we believers have one name that unites us, Jesus name...His blood shed, His sacrifice on the cross, His resurrection, His ascention....you cannot expect every believer to conform to one mans flawed ministry...it is not required of us in the word....it is extranneous to Gods way...He said His work is to believe in the One whom the Father sent and love one another....the ordinances set forth by the LC do not apply, are completely invalid requirements...they are manmade garbage.

Back to your point, Aron...it is dangerous to get distracted from Jesus. This focus on perfecting meeting, perfecting bodylife...this is looking at ourselves in contrast to looking away unto Jesus, our Way. Looking at the church is to take our Own way.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Jo S

To the LC's credit, there is the understanding of the importance of unity within the body of Christ looking beyond denominational status or creed. However, ironically this understanding has become an ideology rather than the result of an organic work of the Lord as we've read about in the early churches.

Things for Christians weren't as glamorous back then. For all of us in the US, we're living in relative peace and security so it's easy to have a disconnect from the realities our brothers and sisters faced in the early days or are now facing in the east.

For the Christians in biblicial times "locality" wasn't a practice or a doctrine, it was a necessity and essential for the faith's survival. These churches met on personal properties and lived together in quarters within cities or slums rather than having convenient sunday meetings in million dollar 501(c)(3) tax exempt facilities. For those in the LC that condemn Judaism, tax exemption began with Jewish synogogues in Rome.... So there's that. I'm not bashing tax exempt churches or meeting on Sundays but if you claim you're living out the bible, why not then go all the way?

This type of biblical unity we read about, I believe, can't be recreated in places where the faith isn't being persecuted. The intentions are admirable but what real reason is there for establishing a pattern of Christianity like the LC pushes to places as tolerant toward religion as the west is? In the end, it's no more than business because there isn't practical use for this type of mindset.

I believe the Lord has more use for his body in having true believers spread out amongst the denominations and non-denominational churches. In times of peace I believe that's a much better strategy, not only for preservation, but also for witnessing rather than having the entirety of believers in a particular city all under one minister like Lee or Chu. Even then, these men oversaw not just one city but many cities. This type of influence and control is dangerous.

You might argue, "Paul oversaw many churches".....Well, I'd say until Jesus Christ himself appears to you in blinding glory in front of multiple witnesses and then you go through the type of tribulations Paul has gone through to prepare him for this level of ministry then you really don't have an argument.

My point is that we may not see a true biblical unity of believers until the great tribulation or maybe even after when Christ returns, I don't know for sure. We most likely won't see any other "super apostles" or "MOTAs" perhaps until the two witnesses appear on the earth.

I cannot see that the same God who said "A kingdom divided cannot stand" would think division is " a much better strategy". Paul also said "is Christ divided?". I cannot see that Paul would think division is a better strategy either.

You have it back to front. In times of peace, a family should be united together. Maybe it is more effective and practical for a family to be divided, imagine, the husband could live near his work place and the wife near hers. The kids could live near their school, it would be easier for everyone. But they are still one family, not divided, they just live in different places and never see each other.

A man and woman living apart sends the message that the couple is separated. Married couples should live together especially when there is no reason to be apart. Divisions present a message to the world that Christianity is divided, even though you and everyone else says it isn't. Consider how an unbeliever sees the church - Christianity looks more fragmented and divided than Islam, and Islam is supposed to be the religion which promotes violence.

If Christians have no reason to be apart from each other, in times of peace, then there is really no reason for the denominations to exist.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I cannot see that the same God who said "A kingdom divided cannot stand" would think division is " a much better strategy".

If this line of reasoning was correct, Christ would have never left us in the first place.

This is the same savior that sent out his disciples into the villages two by two (Mark 6:7)

And all it takes is two or three to gather in his name and he will be with them (Matthew 18:20)

You're marraige analogy would be valid if not for the fact that Christ's marriage supper takes place only when he returns and not before.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Jo S

If this line of reasoning was correct, Christ would have never left us in the first place.

Did Christ really leave? Ever heard of the Holy Spirit? "I will not leave you orphans" (John 14:18).

Originally Posted by Jo S

This is the same savior that sent out his disciples into the villages two by two (Mark 6:7)

And all it takes is two or three to gather in his name and he will be with them (Matthew 18:20)

Got it. He sent them out by denominational preference .

Originally Posted by Jo S

You're marraige analogy would be valid if not for the fact that Christ's marriage supper takes place only when he returns and not before.

There is no where in the Bible which even hints at a plan or strategy of dividing the church or believers into different denominations, between the time of Christ and His return.

Instead, there are numerous verses which state that division is bad - as I posted before.

I cannot see that the Lord Jesus who desired this:

1 Cor 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

would ever desire this:

I believe the Lord has more use for his body in having true believers spread out amongst the denominations and non-denominational churches

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I cannot see that the same God who said "A kingdom divided cannot stand" would think division is " a much better strategy". Paul also said "is Christ divided?". I cannot see that Paul would think division is a better strategy either.

You have it back to front. In times of peace, a family should be united together. Maybe it is more effective and practical for a family to be divided, imagine, the husband could live near his work place and the wife near hers. The kids could live near their school, it would be easier for everyone. But they are still one family, not divided, they just live in different places and never see each other.

A man and woman living apart sends the message that the couple is separated. Married couples should live together especially when there is no reason to be apart. Divisions present a message to the world that Christianity is divided, even though you and everyone else says it isn't. Consider how an unbeliever sees the church - Christianity looks more fragmented and divided than Islam, and Islam is supposed to be the religion which promotes violence.

If Christians have no reason to be apart from each other, in times of peace, then there is really no reason for the denominations to exist.

Then how can you live with yourself after watching LSM divorce the Brazil and Midwest LC's? Talk about living "apart." Consider how all the unbelievers viewed LSM during their lawsuits and quarantines for TC merely wanting clean sheets in Thailand?

Do you live in a cave with LSM's "vast online library?" How do you justify the events in the real world?

Does LSM really think that these ancient Christians hiding out in the Roman catacombs or the Cappadocian cave dwellings would demand a "One Publication Policy" or excommunicate their brothers for "playing drums?"

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I cannot see that the same God who said "A kingdom divided cannot stand" would think division is " a much better strategy". Paul also said "is Christ divided?"

Jesus said, "In my Father's house are many mansions." Is this division? Why not?

And contrast that picture of variety to the bland, man- made uniformity of Babel: bricks, not living stones. Just like stacked cubic zirconium.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

Jesus said, "In my Father's house are many mansions." Is this division? Why not?

And contrast that picture of variety to the bland, man- made uniformity of Babel: bricks, not living stones. Just like stacked cubic zirconium.

From MacLaren's Expositions

Are they to dwell isolated in their several mansions? Is that the way in which children in a home dwell with each other?

A solitary heaven would be but half a heaven, and would ill correspond with the hopes that inevitably spring from the representation of it as ‘my Father’s house.’

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

With that said, let me share with you an analogy;

I compare Christ's church to a precious stone. A diamond is beautiful but that beauty doesn't come easy. It takes tremendous amounts of heat and pressure over a long period of time to give a natural diamond the beauty and resilience it's known for.

On the other hand, take a synthetic diamond made in a laboratory. They are made in controlled environments to have the same chemical and physical characteristics that organic diamonds have but they only take a very short amount of time and fewer steps to achieve those same properties. However there's one thing that gives a fake diamond away; microscopic metallic inclusions left over from the manufacturing process.

Since I have a gemologist in the family, I have learned that fake diamonds called cubic zirconium (CZ) are readily identified by their so-called "perfection." Real diamonds, however, always have some kind of flaw. What might seem "perfect" to the naked eye, or even with 10x power magnification, will be seen with higher power.

Learning this became significant in the context of the LCM and LSM's lust for uniformity among all the LC's. Real life is just not "perfect." Only Jesus Christ is perfect. All of nature is flawed in some way, but manufactured fakes like CZ fake diamonds can appear "perfect," and that signals a trained eye as to its real worth -- next to nothing. They only look pretty. They are worthless, however. Better to have a badly flawed, but real, diamond than a perfect CZ fake diamond.

LSM may love and demand "CZ" LC's all pretty and uniform, with each reading from the same book, giving identical testimonies, and lauding the "rich" ministry of WL, but God loves diversity, and God prefers all the "flaws" in this age, seeing the work of His Spirit on these precious stones. LSM deceives itself and its members into thinking that their perfect "CZ" uniformity is preferred to the genuine, but flawed, oneness which God desires.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Since I have a gemologist in the family, I have learned that fake diamonds called cubic zirconium (CZ) are readily identified by their so-called "perfection." Real diamonds, however, always have some kind of flaw. What might seem "perfect" to the naked eye, or even with 10x power magnification, will be seen with higher power.

Learning this became significant in the context of the LCM and LSM's lust for uniformity among all the LC's. Real life is just not "perfect." Only Jesus Christ is perfect. All of nature is flawed in some way, but manufactured fakes like CZ fake diamonds can appear "perfect," and that signals a trained eye as to its real worth -- next to nothing. They only look pretty. They are worthless, however. Better to have a badly flawed, but real, diamond than a perfect CZ fake diamond.

LSM may love and demand "CZ" LC's all pretty and uniform, with each reading from the same book, giving identical testimonies, and lauding the "rich" ministry of WL, but God loves diversity, and God prefers all the "flaws" in this age, seeing the work of His Spirit on these precious stones. LSM deceives itself and its members into thinking that their perfect "CZ" uniformity is preferred to the genuine, but flawed, oneness which God desires.

It works that way as well. No doubt a natural diamond is more desirable to the Lord.

[JJ]

Nice thread start Jo S. And, love the discussion y'all.

Christ is all and in all in the new human.