Poor, poor Christianity...

[Drake]

Brother Lee is criticized in this forum because he assessed that the situation in Christianity was lacking and fell short in their practices and teachings according to the Bible... what he often termed “poor, poor Christianity”. The problem is that his critics fail to acknowledge that many Christian teachers and the doctrine and practices they teach in Christianity are poor, often pitifully poor. Christianity casts a wide net and embraces the orthodox and the heretical, the fundamental and the bizarre, the lovers of Christ and and nominal Christians. For Christianity to be assessed as poor does not mean it needs to be poor 100%. The country I live in is considered to be a mess not only by outsiders but by many of its own citizens. Yet, not every one is a mess, some are trying to fix the mess. However, there is enough of a mess that it is accurate to say it is a mess. In the same manner Christianity is poor because there is enough critical mass to assess it so.

This thread is to discuss poor poor Christianity and to allow forum members to discuss whether Brother Lee’s characterization is accurate in specific instances instead of the broad brush generalizations used to criticize him for saying it.

Drake

[Drake]

This is the first and a current example of poor poor Christianity. I do not think anyone who holds orthodox views could disagree.

http://www.wnd.com/2018/04/pastor-de...-beyonce-mass/

I would call this pitifully poor. No one can defend it. Yet observe the adoring crowd!

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

This is the first and a current example of poor poor Christianity. I do not think anyone who holds orthodox views could disagree.

http://www.wnd.com/2018/04/pastor-de...-beyonce-mass/

I would call this pitifully poor. No one can defend it. Yet observe the adoring crowd!

Drake

No one is defending this idolatry. This occurred in San Francisco, not exactly a city rich in Christian heritage. Some have likened it to Sodom and Gomorrah. I have been there and I can understand why.

But I think you are being completely disingenuous by connecting this pathetic scene to Christianity. This is right out of the WL playbook -- identifying the entire body of Christ (outside the LCM) with the most despicable of things. It's called mudslinging, and it's pathetic, and I lived with it for 30 years in the LCM.

If you want to establish a little credibility on this forum, you might want to "consider your ways."

Originally Posted by Drake

This is the first and a current example of poor poor Christianity. I do not think anyone who holds orthodox views could disagree.

http://www.wnd.com/2018/04/pastor-de...-beyonce-mass/

I would call this pitifully poor. No one can defend it. Yet observe the adoring crowd!

Drake

First I think you would have trouble calling this idolatry because Beyonce is only compared to another woman, and the pastor directly said they weren't worshipping her. It was a sermon about gender in the Bible and they used contemporary music, I don't think you can substantiate that as terrible.

Also the comments are the opposite of adoring.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Drake

This is the first and a current example of poor poor Christianity. I do not think anyone who holds orthodox views could disagree.

http://www.wnd.com/2018/04/pastor-de...-beyonce-mass/

I would call this pitifully poor. No one can defend it. Yet observe the adoring crowd!

Drake

That's right, preach it. Even though some are obviously blinded to the mass degradation, those of us who came out of her see clearer.

Even though including Beyonce is sacrilegious, it gets worse, in my opinion and touches on spiritual matters beyond the outward signs of degradation such as gay marriage and female ordination.

There is also multi-faith meetings, meditation sessions, clergy members who also function as psychics, and free masonry is rife. Basically it is spiritualism and deism not Christianity.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

That's right, preach it. Even though some are obviously blinded to the mass degradation, those of us who came out of her see clearer.

Even though including Beyonce is sacrilegious, it gets worse, in my opinion and touches on spiritual matters beyond the outward signs of degradation such as gay marriage and female ordination.

There is also multi-faith meetings, meditation sessions, clergy members who also function as psychics, and free masonry is rife. Basically it is spiritualism and deism not Christianity.

It is really sad.

The hatred for Brother Lee is evident by the responses to this thread. Rather than acknowledge the awful setting up of Beyoncé in the worship, something that is only reserved for the Lord, detractors are making excuses for it! Instead attacking Brother Lee for rightly calling such stuff poor poor Christianity.

Even the Anglican Church refused to tolerate it any longer.

Drake

[Evangelical]

A number of things jump out of this interesting article about Beyonce in worship.

The article mentions that the service was about the social philosophy of the pop star:

More than 900 people came to the celebration of the “traditional” service using the music and social philosophy of the pop star

After digging around on Google I found that the social philosophy of Beyonce is to "do whatever she wants to do".

This is validated by the Priest's statement:

"“I believe in Beyoncé because she reminds us you have to do things your way.”

That's right Priest, do what you want to do, maybe next time a bit of "I did it my way" Sinatra.


“I know there are people who will say using Beyoncé is just a cheap way of trying to get people in the church,”

Sure seems like it:

"More than 900 people came to the celebration of the “traditional” service using the music and social philosophy of the pop star. Normal evening services draw about 50."


"“When we talk about womanist biblical interpretation, Beyoncé felt like a natural fit" - there's that old feminist agenda again, interpreting the bible based on what's between one's legs.


“I’ve been asked time and time again, ‘Why Beyoncé?'” Norton told parishioners, “I believe in Beyoncé because she reminds us you have to do things your way.” - so not God's way? interesting.


“Our goal is to have a worship experience that honors the fact that we’re all created in the image of God.”

"worship experience" - entertain the masses, give em something they won't forget, get them coming back for more (900 - 50 = 850 new church members to retain)

"that honors the fact that we’re all created in the image of God." - so Beyonce is the image of God?

Here she is, looking a lot like the goddess of the sun, or is it Oh Mother Mary, is that you? In Asia, if someone dresses like that and stands on a mountain, 100,000 Catholics and buddhists will come to worship.

[Ohio]

It's shameful even to think about how obsessed you and Drake are with Beyonce worship. You brothers should rise up out of the gutter and do something useful.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It's shameful even to think about how obsessed you and Drake are with Beyonce worship. You brothers should rise up out of the gutter and do something useful.

This is serious. Adele called her Jesus Christ and worships her:

“How is it even possible that she only ever gets better? How is that possible? She is Jesus **** Christ,” Adele said.

Matt 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

https://www.christianpost.com/news/a...monade-163497/

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

This is serious. Adele called her Jesus Christ and worships her:

“How is it even possible that she only ever gets better? How is that possible? She is Jesus **** Christ,” Adele said.

Matt 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

https://www.christianpost.com/news/a...monade-163497/

It is so clear. No Christian should make excuses for this.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Brother Lee is criticized in this forum because he assessed that the situation in Christianity was lacking and fell short in their practices and teachings according to the Bible... what he often termed “poor, poor Christianity”. The problem is that his critics fail to acknowledge that many Christian teachers and the doctrine and practices they teach in Christianity are poor, often pitifully poor.

This forum was developed to assess the situation, past and present, in the Local Church Movement (LCM) because it has fallen so short of the practices and teachings of the Bible. While many have characterized the system, especially at LSM, as a cult, I would not do that and rather describe the system as an aberrant sect full of extra-biblical teachings and practices in the form of "leaven hidden in the lump." This forum is filled with the descriptions of these errors.

What the critics of Witness Lee, the Blendeds, and the LCM do recognize is that there does remain many precious children of God there. Unfortunately they remain in a poor, often pitifully poor, system exalting the person and writings of a man, Witness Lee. They are really "Leeites" but would rather condemn the entire body of Christ than see their own degraded condition. Their condition, complete with a long history of self-preserving lawsuits, is no different than that at Corinth.

[leastofthese]

How many verses in Scripture speak to not judging your neighbor? Yet the LSM has built this as a foundation and, as such, this mentality is deeply imbedded in the LSM culture. On the contrary, how many verses speak to loving your neighbor? Hopefully leaders of these ministry “churches” can focus more on the latter, their world would so much more joyful, free, and peaceful.

The further away you get from the LSM churches and the closer you get to Christ and His Church, the more clearly you feel saddened for the spirit of confusion and chains of the LSM. I wonder if the Pharisees also talked to Jesus about “Poor, poor Christianity”?

Where is the churchofbeyoncediscussions.org? Maybe you can take this thread there.

[Ohio]

Witness Lee had a regular practice, especially in huge trainings broadcast across the world, of comparing the worst of all Christianity with the best of the LCM. Lee often did this after some young brother or sister gave a refreshing testimony. The comparison is completely bogus and self-serving.

Point one finger at others and three more are aimed in return.

[countmeworthy]

It is known that when a person or people put other people down, they are puffing themselves up.

Lee and Nee may have exposed the dead works of the Christian religion and denominations but Lee especially boasted they were not in poor, poor, Christianity. He loved putting Christianity down. I get it. I know the denominations all came out of the RCC..and it was never God's plan we meet in 'church buildings'. Jesus as a Jew did preach to the Jews in the synagogue but most of the time He preached and taught by the wayside, in people's homes, by the mountainside, in the streets, by the seashore. The saints in Acts gathered in the upper room once or twice but most of the time they were meeting in homes, in the streets etc.

We are instructed to build up the body of Christ, that includes those true believers not in the LSM. But Lee built up his denomination, his 'kingdom'.

Remember what happened to Ephesus.. The angel said:

I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, you have left your first love.

The crusades supposedly believed the RCC was the 'one true church'.. and thus they began criticizing, then persecuting and then murdering Jews and Gentile who would not convert to their 'church'.

The Love for Jesus, for the Body of Christ has been replaced with the love for Lee's teachings. Anyone following a different ministry aside from Lee, is looked down upon. Shoots, an LSMr is not allowed to get revelation from the Holy Spirit. They have to go to the footnotes and Lee's books for understanding. And guess what? Lee did not have everything right! So when a person is shown a revelation of what the scriptures say through the Holy Spirit, that is not in alignment with Lee's views, it is not received.

(For the record, not every 'revelation' is from God, the Holy Spirit. So I am careful to say that a person sometimes thinks they are getting insight and revelation from God in the scriptures when they are not always. They read the scriptures to fit their thinking, their desires.)

One reason I left the LC is because it was no longer 'CHRIST and the church'.. It became Lee and the church, Lee and the LSM..

The Presence of God, the Anointing of the Holy Spirit left my locality around 1977.

That said, many, many true believers have been leaving the man made 'church'. Much of the 'church' at large has become apostate. There is no meat, no anointing, no Life, no LOVE, no real fellowship. The Blood of Jesus is just a dead doctrine.

So people are leaving in droves. They are meeting in homes, fellowshipping on the phone, through email and wherever the Holy Spirit leads them. (of course, many are so discouraged and disillusioned by the dead works in the 'church' they are going back into the world, forsaking their faith in Christ..if they had it to begin with. Maybe they were simply church goers but never were filled with the Word of God, Jesus and His Holy Spirit.)

But many are studying the Word of God on their own through the insight and revelation of the Holy Spirit. The letter kills but the Spirit gives Life.

not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the Spirit: for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life. Corinthians 3:-6

Btw, as a reminder.. the NT really begins with the death of Jesus.

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Hebrews 9:16-17

Thus we are only able ministers of the NT because of the shed Blood of Jesus in our lives. His Precious Blood purges our consciences from dead works to serve the Living God.

Peace to all in Christ Jesus

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

How many verses in Scripture speak to not judging your neighbor? Yet the LSM has built this as a foundation and, as such, this mentality is deeply imbedded in the LSM culture. On the contrary, how many verses speak to loving your neighbor? Hopefully leaders of these ministry “churches” can focus more on the latter, their world would so much more joyful, free, and peaceful.

The further away you get from the LSM churches and the closer you get to Christ and His Church, the more clearly you feel saddened for the spirit of confusion and chains of the LSM. I wonder if the Pharisees also talked to Jesus about “Poor, poor Christianity”?

Where is the churchofbeyoncediscussions.org? Maybe you can take this thread there.

LofT,

Not sure where you land on this one. It is clearly idolatry.

The Episcopal church has been on a slide for awhile. Two years ago the Anglican church suspended association for similar reasons.

https://goodnewsmag.org/2016/01/angl...ch-in-the-u-s/

Is this a case of poor poor Christianity? I believe so.

Drake

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

LofT,

Not sure where you land on this one. It is clearly idolatry.

The Episcopal church has been on a slide for awhile. Two years ago the Anglican church suspended association for similar reasons.

https://goodnewsmag.org/2016/01/angl...ch-in-the-u-s/

Is this a case of poor poor Christianity? I believe so.

Drake

Hey man, if you’re called to go out to the ends of the earth proclaiming examples of poor, poor, Christianity - I’m not going to stop you. But I won’t be a part of it. I’m sure we could spend all year coming up with new links.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Hey man, if you’re called to go out to the ends of the earth proclaiming examples of poor, poor, Christianity - I’m not going to stop you. But I won’t be a part of it. I’m sure we could spend all year coming up with new links.

LofT,

Ends of the earth? No brother, just here in this forum where Brother Lee is criticized for saying it.

Are Christians to be indifferent about these matters? I don’t believe so. Is the Lord Himself indifferent?

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

Brother Lee is criticized in this forum because he assessed that the situation in Christianity was lacking and fell short in their practices and teachings according to the Bible... what he often termed “poor, poor Christianity”.

I see two related issues. First, address the assertion "Christianity is lacking", and second, if Christianity is "too poor", as I remember WL putting it, is his ministry somehow exempt? Or is it also too poor? Maybe even the worst?

1. We can always find a Westboro Baptist Church or Church of Beyonce to castigate, but are these representative of the greater mass, or not? How to objectively assess Christanity?

My own way has been to go back in time. In the 4th century with the so-called 'robber council' at Chalcedon I see a Christianity that had wholly and completely lost it's way, and in no wise collectively represented the gospel message of Peter, James, Paul, and John.

Bitter in-fighting over meanings of Greek words that today, if you ask the particulars (EOC and OOC), they just collectively shrug and say, its complicated.

And it got worse. In some ways there has been a struggle to revive the gospel, but overall it is a mess. To put it simply, yes it is lacking.

2. Is there really a "rich ministry of Witness Lee" (yes that's the term they use) or is it also impoverished? I would say, impoverished. The local churches affiliated with the LSM are a spiritual gulag archipelago, a string of impoverished assemblies where believers are afraid to think or listen for the Shepherd's voice. If Witness Lee didn't say it, it doesn't exist. And if he did, that's supposedly God's oracle.

It is a wasteland, barely Christian.

Somehow Watchman Nee was able to read 3,000 Christian classics, so-called, but today they as Nee's heirs advise to only read one publication? What a farce. What if some elders in an LSM-affiliated local church decided to preach on Sunday morning from some other ministry? Or - gasp - just from the Bible? How long do you think it would take for Anaheim to hear? Two hours? Four?

And I'm not addressing the practices, merely the teachings - One Publication Policy shows how thoroughly Babylonian in thinking this group is. The practices are exponentially worse. Not even "barely Christian", but rather "the way of the nations". Matt 20:25, Lording over one another. Shameful.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

Brother Lee is criticized in this forum because he assessed that the situation in Christianity was lacking and fell short in their practices and teachings according to the Bible... what he often termed “poor, poor Christianity”. The problem is that his critics fail to acknowledge that many Christian teachers and the doctrine and practices they teach in Christianity are poor, often pitifully poor. Christianity casts a wide net and embraces the orthodox and the heretical, the fundamental and the bizarre, the lovers of Christ and and nominal Christians. For Christianity to be assessed as poor does not mean it needs to be poor 100%. The country I live in is considered to be a mess not only by outsiders but by many of its own citizens. Yet, not every one is a mess, some are trying to fix the mess. However, there is enough of a mess that it is accurate to say it is a mess. In the same manner Christianity is poor because there is enough critical mass to assess it so.

This thread is to discuss poor poor Christianity and to allow forum members to discuss whether Brother Lee’s characterization is accurate in specific instances instead of the broad brush generalizations used to criticize him for saying it.

Drake

1. I wanted to respond quicker but I was reluctant knowing the meekness and gentleness of Christ.

2. It appears the question is “are they walking in the flesh”? But it seems to me that if you aren’t warring according to the flesh you wouldn’t be comparing yourself with those that walk in the flesh and commending yourself and measuring yourself with them.

3. I don’t want to glory beyond my measure. What I am in the Lord I am and the fact that others may walk according to the flesh does not in any way change what God has apportioned to me.

4. I don’t even understand the premise, we glory in the Lord. It seems the whole premise of this thread is “thank God I am not like those Christians”.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

4. I don’t even understand the premise, we glory in the Lord. It seems the whole premise of this thread is “thank God I am not like those Christians”.

A fair question and post ZNP.

I’ll clarify. The premise of this thread is to address the objections that people in this forum have toward the phrase Brother Lee made “poor poor Christianity “. I contend he had grounds for it.

We do glory in the Lord and put our trust in Him. Yet, when people lambast Brother Lee, his co-workers, and that little flock day after day in this forum is that their glorying in the Lord?

DistantStar said we should not include heretical groups under the banner of Christianity. Although, it is generally accepted that Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormons, and other heretical Christian groups are included in Christianity I agree to set aside those groups as part of the poor poor Christianity debate. I believe we would all agree that if those heretical groups were included almost all or perhaps all would agree in principle that at least those groups characterize poor poor Christianity. Therefore, the links I provided are not about a heretical group but about a group that is historically accepted under the banner of Christianity. That is Episcopalian. Since they are a bonafide member of Christianity then the first proof point for poor poor Christianity is established but I will also concede that in reality we have only proven thus far poor poor Episcopalianism.

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

A fair question and post ZNP.

I’ll clarify. The premise of this thread is to address the objections that people in this forum have toward the phrase Brother Lee made “poor poor Christianity “. I contend he had grounds for it.

We do glory in the Lord and put our trust in Him. Yet, when people lambast Brother Lee, his co-workers, and that little flock day after day in this forum is that their glorying in the Lord?

DistantStar said we should not include heretical groups under the banner of Christianity. Although, it is generally accepted that Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormons, and other heretical Christian groups are included in Christianity I agree to set aside those groups as part of the poor poor Christianity debate. I believe we would all agree that if those heretical groups were included almost all or perhaps all would agree in principle that at least those groups characterize poor poor Christianity. Therefore, the links I provided are not about a heretical group but about a group that is historically accepted under the banner of Christianity. That is Episcopalian. Since they are a bonafide member of Christianity then the first proof point for poor poor Christianity is established but I will also concede that in reality we have only proven thus far poor poor Episcopalianism.

Drake

Bro Drake, perhaps all of Christendom, including the JWs and Mormons, would glory in the Lord accept for :

Rom_7:23* But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

We're all human. And that's Christendom's failure ... including the sect of Nee and Lee.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

Bro Drake, perhaps all of Christendom, including the JWs and Mormons, would glory in the Lord accept for :

Rom_7:23* But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

We're all human. And that's Christendom's failure ... including the sect of Nee and Lee.

Bro awareness,

We are all human and the flesh of sin we will always have with us. Yet the Lord would not have issued a call to overcome were it not possible to overcome. For the believer there is the capability to overcome through the indwelling Spirit of life.

Still, whereas sin is inside of us, there are also the forces outside of us. The rulers, principalities, and powers (archon) spoken of Ephesians rule and influence matters outside of us. The Beyoncé worship is one example and the reasons the Anglican Church gave for disassociating the Episcopalian Church from their group are other examples.

Thanks
Drake

[JJ]

Drake Beyonce worship is simply disgusting. Tar and feather "Christianity" with that all you want. But, I don't know a single Christian who is buying into such stuff. Does anyone else here know a Beyonce worshipper in their church?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

Bro awareness,

We are all human and the flesh of sin we will always have with us. Yet the Lord would not have issued a call to overcome were it not possible to overcome. For the believer there is the capability to overcome through the indwelling Spirit of life.

Still, whereas sin is inside of us, there are also the forces outside of us. The rulers, principalities, and powers (archon) spoken of Ephesians rule and influence matters outside of us. The Beyoncé worship is one example and the reasons the Anglican Church gave for disassociating the Episcopalian Church from their group are other examples.

Thanks
Drake

Bro Drake, thanks for the reply.

I think what I'm trying to say is that the reason Christianity is poor, poor, poor, is because it's made up of people. And that's true for all of Christianity, even the local churches.

It's really not poor, poor, poor, Christianity, it's poor, poor, poor, people, and we can't get around that ; we can't get around the human condition.

So it's not realistic to point at Christianity and call it poor, poor, poor, Christianity ; without admitting that we too are just as poor, poor, poor.

And also, I don't think an overcomer would do that, or act that way. I think an overcomer would produce the fruits of the Spirit, and the lessons provide by Jesus, on sermon on the mount.

Blessings brother ....
Harold

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

It seems the whole premise of this thread is “thank God I am not like those Christians”.

Reminds me of that prayer in the temple by that Pharisee. (Luke 18.10-14)

But I must be honest and say, "thank the Lord" that these Pharisees at LSM are still praying.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Drake

This thread is to discuss poor poor Christianity and to allow forum members to discuss whether Brother Lee’s characterization is accurate in specific instances instead of the broad brush generalizations used to criticize him for saying it.

Hi Drake, I think this thread is based on wrong premise. No body would deny there are many issues in Christianity. WL may be right for some of his accusations to poor poor Chirstianity. But I believe most members here are criticizing WL's intention and how he dealt with such issues rather than the claims themselves.

Paul taught us:

Rom 15:1 But we who are strong ought to bear the weaknesses of those who are weak and not to please ourselves.

1 Cor 12:23 And those members of the body which we consider to be less honorable, these we clothe with more abundant honor; and our uncomely members come to have more abundant comeliness,

But what is WL's solution to poor poor Christianity? "Come out of it" and "widen the gap between Christianity and The Lord's Recovery"! Tell me, where is the brotherly love?