What is the boundary of the Local Church?

[ZNPaaneah]

18And I also say unto thee, that thou art [k]Peter, and upon this [l]rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

1. Jesus is Lord. The Lord’s word concerning being killed didn’t not align with Peter’s vision and Peter “rebukes” the Lord. Jesus rebukes this in the strongest terms. The first boundary concerning the church that cannot be crossed is that Jesus is Lord. We are not His counselor. When Witness Lee rebukes Micah because he doesn’t have the vision, or James because he is not clear on the vision, or the Psalmists because they are writing according to their natural concepts. We are to be one with all Christians who recognize Jesus is Lord, and we need to reject all those who don’t, even the Apostle Peter in this case is rebuked.

2. Jesus only. After this Jesus takes several apostles up to the mountain where they talk about making three tabernacles, one for Jesus, one for Moses and one for Elijah. Moses and Elijah are Ministers of the Age. This is undeniable, even the Bible presents them both as Ministers of the Age. This is the second boundary. The church is not a tabernacle to a man. Lutherans and Calvinists are clearly in error here. But other groups like the Brethren also fall into this trap. They know not to have any other name, but the cause of their divisions is different ministers and those that follow the different ministries. This is what identifies a cult, following a man. Even if the man is endorsed by the Bible like Moses and Elijah, the church should only hear Jesus. I believe this is the second boundary concerning the church that the LRC has crossed by setting up WN and WL as “MOTA’s”.

3. Faith. When they come down from the mountain we see the father of an epileptic asking Jesus to heal his son because the disciples “could not cure him”. A third error we make is in thinking the church, more powerful than Hades, able to bind and loose anyone on earth, is filled with great men of faith. God loves mercy. What pleases God is to see a sinner saved, repent, and lifted up. The church is composed of those with little faith. Philadelphia only had “a little strength”. This is a boundary that cannot be crossed but that Witness Lee crossed frequently when he claimed that there was no one in Christianity with anything of value. His reference to “poor, poor Christianity” is an example of his insulting behavior to those with little faith.

4. Kings destined to rule. Finally, the chapter ends with Peter being rebuked again for saying that Jesus pays tribute to the leaders. We see this frequently, people presenting the church as a group for political activism. Jesus rebuked Peter for saying that He pays the tribute because that wasn’t according to the truth. This can be absolutely true and scriptural, however you are missing a simple point. The church is here to win souls from sin and death (Hades). We don’t reign in this age, we evangelize. Preaching that we are exempt from the world’s authority would stumble some. Therefore we do pay the tribute, not because we need to, but because we choose to do this so as not to stumble others. Since money is vanity and in light of eternity of no value why not give it?

This brings us to Matthew 18. The disciples are confused, they were told that the church would be more powerful than Hades and that they would be above all on Earth able to bind and loose all. Since all of their assumptions about what that would be like were wrong they ask the Lord what that means. He explains in chapter 18 what that is and concludes with these verses:

18Verily I say unto you, What things soever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and what things soever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19Again I say unto you, that if two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it [l]shall be done for them of my Father who is in heaven. 20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

[COLOR="Blue"]1. Jesus is Lord. The Lord’s word concerning being killed didn’t not align with Peter’s vision and Peter “rebukes” the Lord. Jesus rebukes this in the strongest terms. The first boundary concerning the church that cannot be crossed is that Jesus is Lord. We are not His counselor. When Witness Lee rebukes Micah because he doesn’t have the vision, or James because he is not clear on the vision, or the Psalmists because they are writing according to their natural concepts. We are to be one with all Christians who recognize Jesus is Lord, and we need to reject all those who don’t, even the Apostle Peter in this case is rebuked.

No prophecy of scripture ever comes about by the prophet’s own imagination, for no prophecy was ever borne of human impulse; rather, men carried along by the Holy Spirit spoke from God (2 Peter 1:20-21).


Witness Lee teaches that some scripture did come about by the prophet's own imagination.

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matt 5:17-19)


The fact that the Bible has authority is not imagination, it is not an inferential teaching or a cleverly devised myth like Witness Lee's "Ground of the church" doctrine which elevates the worldly boundaries of a worldly city at giving the boundaries of the church. The NT states clearly that the ground that the church is built on is a rock, it is the revelation that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. But this myth denies the Lord who redeemed us and replaces Him with some arbitrary boundary that changes with the whims of men.

For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe. (1Thess 2:13)


Witness Lee teaches that the books of Micah, James, Psalms, and other sections are the "word of men". No different than Peter telling Jesus "this shall not befall you". Jesus is the incarnated word.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Witness Lee teaches that the books of Micah, James, Psalms, and other sections are the "word of men". No different than Peter telling Jesus "this shall not befall you".

One way to see the seriousness of what Lee did is to see it in context. In the 4 gospels, the OT clearly was used as the basis of promoting Jesus as Messiah. "The scripture must be fulfilled" was the mantra. The OT had promised the Messiah, and now here he was - Jesus the Nazarene. Jesus never promoted his own agenda, but was strictly controlled by the word of scripture. "What I see my Father doing, that is what I do"

Paul developed that further, and added layers of abstraction. But - key - Paul never added anything that changed the gospel message in Acts: that the promised Messiah, foretold by the prophets in the inspiration of God's Spirit, was now fulfilled. The birth, the deeds, the suffering, the death, the glories that followed. Again, all of this was portrayed in the Jewish scripture, the OT.

Now, here's where I see the problem. Lee added a further layer of abstraction, one which needed to survive by dismissing portions of scripture as "fallen" and "natural". Lee went beyond anything Paul had done. He made his own teachings the boundary of the Local Church. Instead of Jesus, we focused on "processed", and "consummated" and "High Peak"

I noticed this, when as a member I'd "go off message" and see something that Lee didn't promote. Of course I was excited to see something, and would share. Silence. And God forbid that you treated his work critically, as he'd treated other Christian ministries! LSM got to 'Affirm and Critique' others, but you'd better only 'Affirm' Lee! Otherwise the 'oneness' is broken. If you critique, you've gone off the Lee reservation, and have broken the boundaries of the Local Church.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by aron

Now, here's where I see the problem. Lee added a further layer of abstraction, one which needed to survive by dismissing portions of scripture as "fallen" and "natural". Lee went beyond anything Paul had done. He made his own teachings the boundary of the Local Church. Instead of Jesus, we focused on "processed", and "consummated" and "High Peak"

I noticed this, when as a member I'd "go off message" and see something that Lee didn't promote. Of course I was excited to see something, and would share. Silence. And God forbid that you treated his work critically, as he'd treated other Christian ministries! LSM got to 'Affirm and Critique' others, but you'd better only 'Affirm' Lee! Otherwise the 'oneness' is broken. If you critique, you've gone off the Lee reservation, and have broken the boundaries of the Local Church.

Consider what the Lord told Peter:

23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art a stumbling-block unto me: for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men. 24Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25For whosoever would save his life shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26For what shall a man be profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and forfeit his life? or what shall a man give in exchange for his life?

Making his teachings the boundary was a way to “save his life”, it was a way “to profit”. This is what happens when you pedal the word of God. Peter saw himself as the right hand man to Jesus who was about to set up His kingdom on Earth. When Jesus said He was going to be killed, that meant Peter was also going to lose his life, his dreams, his profit. Telling the Lord He would not go to the cross was not a true interpretation of scripture but a pathetic attempt to save his life.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Witness Lee teaches that some scripture did come about by the prophet's own imagination.

He does this: characterizing it as "mixed human sentiment" and "fallen" and "natural concepts". In this he departs from the pattern of scripture reception given us by the NT apostles, who were following the pattern given by Jesus' use of scripture.

Therefore Lee's ideological template was the basis of church fellowship. If you chose scripture over the template you were outside the boundary of the Local Church.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by aron

He does this: characterizing it as "mixed human sentiment" and "fallen" and "natural concepts". In this he departs from the pattern of scripture reception given us by the NT apostles, who were following the pattern given by Jesus' use of scripture.

Therefore Lee's ideological template was the basis of church fellowship. If you chose scripture over the template you were outside the boundary of the Local Church.

What I think is most important is that all those who come in contact with this group understand this. When I first met them I asked saints questions about the Bible and they made it absolutely clear that the Bible is the only standard, the only authority and that they believe that every word of the Bible is the word of God. Only later do you see this teaching by Witness Lee that he decides which portions are "human imagination" and which are truly up to the standard of his vision.

To me this is like some kid who took apart an engine and then put it together again. When he is done he has a few spare parts. Instead of realizing he must have made a mistake he decides that these parts "are not necessary".

When you compare this with Peter's rebuke of the Lord and the Lord's subsequent rebuke of Peter you realize this is something that we cannot tolerate. Witness Lee has crossed a crucial boundary.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

2. Jesus only. After this Jesus takes several apostles up to the mountain where they talk about making three tabernacles, one for Jesus, one for Moses and one for Elijah. Moses and Elijah are Ministers of the Age. This is undeniable, even the Bible presents them both as Ministers of the Age. This is the second boundary. The church is not a tabernacle to a man. Lutherans and Calvinists are clearly in error here. But other groups like the Brethren also fall into this trap. They know not to have any other name, but the cause of their divisions is different ministers and those that follow the different ministries. This is what identifies a cult, following a man. Even if the man is endorsed by the Bible like Moses and Elijah, the church should only hear Jesus. I believe this is the second boundary concerning the church that the LRC has crossed by setting up WN and WL as “MOTA’s”.

Throughout church history church gatherings have been dominated by individuals. Martin Luther -- hence "Lutherans". Calvin -- Calvinists. Brethren knew this was wrong yet were dominated by various ones like JN Darby.

This has led to the teaching by WL and WN of "Minister of the Age" for which we use the acronym "MOTA". In this MOTA teaching Moses plays a very key role as he is undeniably a "Minister of the Age". One way to realize this should not apply to Witness Lee or Watchman Nee is that Moses as the MOTA was a type of Christ. But this is confirmed here where the disciples suggest building three tabernacles to these three (Jesus, Moses and Elijah). This idea is fully rejected by God. Jesus Christ as the Son is on a completely different level.

In the next chapter (Matt 18) the disciples ask "Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" This word "then" is very important, it shows that this question is a response to them being repeatedly rebuked in Matt 16 and 17. Peter thought that since he got the vision he was the "greatest" (leader). Rejected. They thought Moses and Elijah -- rejected. They thought that they were chosen because of their great faith -- rejected.

The Lord's answer is startling -- 2 And he called to him a little child, and set him in the midst of them, 3 and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye turn, and become as little children, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.

If you put a piano in front of a child they will begin to bang on it. But at a certain age they will respond "I can't play". If you put a computer in front of a child they will begin to bang on it. But after a certain age they will respond "I don't know how it works". We know that any child can play the piano if they are trained. We know anyone can use a computer if they are trained. But it can take time. When the child was not healed they asked "why can't we do it?" The Lord's response was it takes prayer and fasting -- training by the Holy Spirit.

This is why they are looking for that "talented" leader -- Moses, Elijah, or Peter. What the Lord is showing them is that He is the talented leader and if they will pray and fast to be trained by him then they too can enter into the kingdom.

Teaching that Witness Lee is the MOTA short circuits this. Witness Lee has crossed a crucial boundary by stumbling the little brothers and sisters.

4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me: 6 but whoso shall cause one of these little ones that believe on me to stumble, it is profitable for him that a great millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be sunk in the depth of the sea.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This is why they are looking for that "talented" leader -- Moses, Elijah, or Peter. What the Lord is showing them is that He is the talented leader and if they will pray and fast to be trained by him then they too can enter into the kingdom.

Teaching that Witness Lee is the MOTA short circuits this.

Two comments:

1. I believe the NT record shows Christ as the unique MOTA. He is "the prophet like Moses." Not Paul, not Peter, not Luther, not Witness Lee or JN Darby. Christ as the embodiment of Deuteronomy 18's promise is confirmed by Peter in Acts 3:22 and by Stephen in Acts 7:37. Plus, that this was the public expectation, pre-Jesus, is seen by the crowds asking John the Baptist, "Are you the Prophet?" Notice it is "the" Prophet, not "a" prophet.

Jesus was the only one who saw God face-to-face (Exodus 33:11; cf "No one has ever seen God, but Jesus has declared Him"), and came back with the Word of the LORD (Jesus was the incarnate Word!!). None else could do this - all else could only point to the Word. Witness Lee corrupted this, by telling us the God-breathed scripture was fallen man's concepts. (and yet none could point out his fallen concepts!!)

2. The fact that Lee as MOTA was farce was corroborated by what we heard on his death. "The age of spiritual giants is over; it is the age of small potatoes". That is what was solemnly intoned in my 'locality'. No scripture was given. We were so enthralled by the person that when he died we couldn't imagine anyone rising to his stature, and replacing his speaking. So Witness Lee could change the scripture's status from "Holy Word" to "fallen words" and yet when he died, none was qualified to speak forth anything new. His word was final. The "final Moses." As Ed Marks told us, "It is time to eat leftovers". (He said this defiantly).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Two comments:
1. I believe the NT record shows Christ as the unique MOTA. He is "the prophet like Moses." Not Paul, not Peter, not Luther, not Witness Lee or JN Darby. Christ as the embodiment of Deuteronomy 18's promise is confirmed by Peter in Acts 3:22 and by Stephen in Acts 7:37. Plus, that this was the public expectation, pre-Jesus, is seen by the crowds asking John the Baptist, "Are you the Prophet?" Notice it is "the" Prophet, not "a" prophet.

Great finds here aron.

The fulfillment of Moses' prophecy by the Lord Jesus and it being continually mentioned by the early church, shows us that this was common knowledge by the children of Israel. For centuries Israel looked for "THE PROHET" like unto Moses.

I believe that the lack of blessing on LSM confirms that the Father is offended that Lee would rob His own Son of His rightful place as Minister of the New Covenant age. The Apostle Paul would agree, since at the time he was wrongly uplifted in Corinth (I Cor 1.12-13), he responded "Was I, Paul, crucified for you?" That makes it crystal clear that the Minister of the Age, He who is exalted in the church, can be no one else but the One crucified for us.

Paul's warning with tears to the elders in Ephesus, which may have been his last words on earth as far as he knew, confirmed that the church belongs to only Him who shed His own blood. Even the best of church leaders were only to serve as overseers placed by the Holy Spirit. Those who rejected that "demeaning" role of shepherding were either fierce devouring wolves or self-exalting men, speaking perverted things. (Acts 20.18-38)

[ZNPaaneah]

I find it very interesting that we have multiple verse references in Matthew, Acts, and 1Corinthians directly rebuking the concept of "MOTA". What is the basis that Drake, Evangelical and WL give? Human logic -- isn't it reasonable. There is no Biblical basis at all, simply the imagination of men who also imagine that they can discern which parts of the Bible are not up to standard.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

18And I also say unto thee, that thou art [k]Peter, and upon this [l]rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

2. Jesus only. After this Jesus takes several apostles up to the mountain where they talk about making three tabernacles, one for Jesus, one for Moses and one for Elijah. Moses and Elijah are Ministers of the Age. This is undeniable, even the Bible presents them both as Ministers of the Age. This is the second boundary. The church is not a tabernacle to a man. Lutherans and Calvinists are clearly in error here. But other groups like the Brethren also fall into this trap. They know not to have any other name, but the cause of their divisions is different ministers and those that follow the different ministries. This is what identifies a cult, following a man. Even if the man is endorsed by the Bible like Moses and Elijah, the church should only hear Jesus. I believe this is the second boundary concerning the church that the LRC has crossed by setting up WN and WL as “MOTA’s”.

Great commentary here. This is to "rightly divide" the word of God, something sorely needed in the LC's.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

3. Faith. When they come down from the mountain we see the father of an epileptic asking Jesus to heal his son because the disciples “could not cure him”. A third error we make is in thinking the church, more powerful than Hades, able to bind and loose anyone on earth, is filled with great men of faith. God loves mercy. What pleases God is to see a sinner saved, repent, and lifted up. The church is composed of those with little faith. Philadelphia only had “a little strength”. This is a boundary that cannot be crossed but that Witness Lee crossed frequently when he claimed that there was no one in Christianity with anything of value. His reference to “poor, poor Christianity” is an example of his insulting behavior to those with little faith.

2 And he called to him a little child, and set him in the midst of them, 3 and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye turn, and become as little children, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I love this verse. Witness Lee would have you believe that the MOTA is “the greatest in the kingdom of heaven”. It is a vey natural thought. The human concept is that the church, the ones who bind on earth and it is bound in heaven, they loose on earth and it is loosed in heaven, that these ones are mighty in faith. It was a shock to the disciples when they “could not” cast out the demon from the epileptic boy. But what did Jesus say — “you need the vision from the MOTA”? No. He said you need to pray and fast, and then here He says “become as little children”. When my son was four we took him to learn to play the violin. He had no idea how tough the journey would be, he was just four. But now, ten years later, he is quite good.

Do you want to heal the sick? Do you want to cast out demons? Do you want to be in a church where what they bind on earth is bound in heaven, what they loose on earth is loosed in heaven? The church where anything they ask it will be done for them of the Father in heaven? Do you want to be in a church where Jesus is in the midst, turning poor, weak, baby Christians and transforming them into mighty men of faith? That is the church that is greatest in the kingdom.

This is the attitude that every new believer has, they want to experience the things promised in the Bible. But then someone comes and teaches a different gospel. Teach them to follow a different Christ, a dumb idol.

6 but whoso shall cause one of these little ones that believe on me to stumble, it is profitable for him that a great millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be sunk in the depth of the sea.

[Evangelical]

Corinth was a local church.
Ephesus was a local church.
Where did one stop and one end? If you answer that, you answer the question about what is the boundary.

If you own property you probably know where your property starts and ends, but you can't figure out where the start and end of a local church is?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Corinth was a local church.
Ephesus was a local church.
Where did one stop and one end? If you answer that, you answer the question about what is the boundary.

Have you ever used Google Earth? Look up Corinth sometime. There it still is, same as when Paul wrote the Local Church there. Same physical boundaries. So why isn't the current Christian fellowship there one of your hypothetical local churches? Because it's not affiliated with the ministry of the age, and not subject to God's humble bondslave? Because they don't have a standing order with LSM? When did the Local Church in Corinth stop being local? They've always had the Faith, and the city boundaries.

No, if the people within the boundaries of the city of Corinth would only recognize Witness Lee as today's Paul, and today's Moses, as God's Oracle and (final) MOTA, they'd be a legitimate and genuine and proper local church.

Bob: "Hey Joe, did you hear they're taking the ground in Corinth?"

Joe: "No, incredible! A lampstand in Corinth! The same city that Paul wrote to!"

B: "Yep. Same one."

J: "Awesome. Hey, when did Corinth lose it's lampstand, anyway?"

B: "Um, I dunno. I think they got degraded somehow."

J: "Yeah, that's right. They affiliated with the Great Harlot the EOC."

B: "Yeah, the Harlot. O wait - wasn't that the RCC?"

J: "Well, nevermind. It wasn't affiliated with the LSM. That's what matters."

B: "Right. If it's not affiliated with anyone, it's the dreaded 'free group'; you know God hates them."

J: "And if it's affiliated with anyone else, then it's a denomination, or the Harlot."

B: "Right. First, one city per church. Second, proper and genuine affiliation with the ministry of the age."

J: "The simple way to remember is: when we do it, it's proper and genuine. When others do it, not so good."

B: "Yes, that's easy to remember."

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Corinth was a local church.
Ephesus was a local church.
Where did one stop and one end? If you answer that, you answer the question about what is the boundary.

If you own property you probably know where your property starts and ends, but you can't figure out where the start and end of a local church is?

How many churches are there? 1 or ten thousand?

If saints from Corinth and Ephesus met together at Sardis what is that? Suppose two people live in the same house. But because of one brothers job he goes to the church in Corinth and the other Ephesus so that they can make it to work on time after the meeting. What happened to city boundaries?

The real question is what makes the church the Body of Christ? It is that Jesus is in their midst. It doesn't matter what you call yourself or what the boundary lines of the city are. If Jesus is in your midst then you are the Body and if not you aren't.

What makes the church the house of God? It is that Jesus is in your midst. It doesn't matter what you call yourself or what the boundary lines of the city are. If Jesus is in your midst then you are the house of God and if not you aren't.

What makes the church the warrior of God that can bind and loose? It is that Jesus is in your midst. It doesn't matter what you call yourself or what the boundary lines of the city are. If Jesus is in your midst then you are the warrior and if not you aren't.

All of your definitions of taking the table and one eldership are contrived. There is nothing in the NT that prohibits two or three from taking the table. Also your eldership is under the authority of Jesus who is Lord. That is what gives you one leadership. If they are not under Jesus you aren't the church regardless of what self proclaimed prophet laid hands on them.

The bottom line is this -- these verses in Matthew are the first mention of the church, and in these verses the Lord lays out key principles. He does not define the church based on the name or city boundaries. He defines it as the place that can bind on earth and it will be bound in heaven, can loose on earth and it will be loosed in heaven, that whatever they ask it will be done for them by the Father. He also makes it clear that anyone who meets those criteria, even two or three, can receive these promises.

What promises are given to those that name themselves "the church in _____?" Nothing. What promises are given in Matthew 16-18 -- several great promises.

[ZNPaaneah]

Matthew 18 continues:

7 Woe unto the world because of occasions of stumbling! for it must needs be that the occasions come; but woe to that man through whom the occasion cometh!

Why? Why must there be occasions of stumbling? Witness Lee was necessary. David Koresh was necessary. Why? Because we are being trained in this age to rule with Christ as kings.

8 And if thy hand or thy foot causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from thee: it is good for thee to enter into life maimed or halt, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into the eternal fire. 9 And if thine eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is good for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire.

The church is where we learn to deal with all of these negative things. This is what it means to bind and loose. All those lawyers in all those lawsuits didn't know how to bind Witness Lee. The FBI fumbled with Waco. This is not the age for Christians to be "stumbling" others, which would have happened if Peter told them that Jesus doesn't pay the tribute. This is the time for us to be trained in cutting off the occasion of stumbling. This is the church that the gates of Hades shall not prevail against.

This is a boundary that cannot be crossed. We cannot stumble others. We have to be very strict with ourselves, with our hands and feet and eyes. This is why Jesus rebuked Peter "get behind me Satan", this is why they were rebuked on the mount of transfiguration, this is why Peter was rebuked when he said his master pays tribute. The Lord's word was like antibiotic, killing the germs so quickly we hardly even realized they were germs. But after being in the LRC we see how these germs can become gangrene. If Peter can rebuke Jesus what's next? Maybe Micah? James? Proverbs? The Psalms? If you are going to build tabernacles to Moses and Elijah, what's next? Peter? Paul? An infinite number of MOTA's?

I really like what the Lord says here "if your foot caught thee to stumble". This reminds me of Adam blaming Eve who blamed the serpent. Yes, perhaps the foot "caused thee to stumble" but you still have a responsibility as well. Cut it off. No one wants to be maimed, or halt or lose an eye. But we need to be aware of when that is the best option. At some point they realized they were better off cutting off PL. I believe that when the puppet elders apologized and brought him back, they brought a curse upon the LRC. It became spreading gangrene.

This is completely contrary to the world. In the world we sacrifice a few "little children" for "the greater good". RG and BP can justify what they did for "the sake of the vision", etc. But here, in the kingdom, it is the opposite. If you are calculating the "profitability" it is more profitable for one who would stumble one of these little ones to have mill stone around their neck and be cast into the sea instead.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This is not the age for Christians to be "stumbling" others, which would have happened if Peter told them that Jesus doesn't pay the tribute. This is the time for us to be trained in cutting off the occasion of stumbling. This is the church that the gates of Hades shall not prevail against.

This is a boundary that cannot be crossed. We cannot stumble others. We have to be very strict with ourselves, with our hands and feet and eyes. This is why Jesus rebuked Peter "get behind me Satan", this is why they were rebuked on the mount of transfiguration, this is why Peter was rebuked when he said his master pays tribute. The Lord's word was like antibiotic, killing the germs so quickly we hardly even realized they were germs. But after being in the LRC we see how these germs can become gangrene. If Peter can rebuke Jesus what's next? Maybe Micah? James? Proverbs? The Psalms? If you are going to build tabernacles to Moses and Elijah, what's next? Peter? Paul? An infinite number of MOTA's?

I really like what the Lord says here "if your foot caught thee to stumble". This reminds me of Adam blaming Eve who blamed the serpent. Yes, perhaps the foot "caused thee to stumble" but you still have a responsibility as well. Cut it off. No one wants to be maimed, or halt or lose an eye. But we need to be aware of when that is the best option. At some point they realized they were better off cutting off PL. I believe that when the puppet elders apologized and brought him back, they brought a curse upon the LRC. It became spreading gangrene.

This is completely contrary to the world. In the world we sacrifice a few "little children" for "the greater good". RG and BP can justify what they did for "the sake of the vision", etc. But here, in the kingdom, it is the opposite. If you are calculating the "profitability" it is more profitable for one who would stumble one of these little ones to have mill stone around their neck and be cast into the sea instead.

I think this is a good, cautionary word. Surely we needed such warnings, way back when! And we still need them, today.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What promises are given to those that name themselves "the church in _____?" Nothing. What promises are given in Matthew 16-18 -- several great promises.

Nothing?

What about the promises (and warnings) to various "the church in....." are given in Revelation.

e.g. "To the angel of the church in Sardis write...."


If boundaries are not localities.. why does each locality have an angel, and why does each one have a lampstand?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If boundaries are not localities.. why does each locality have an angel, and why does each one have a lampstand?

Time and space is a boundary for creation. The church in Sardis represents the believers who are limited by both time and space. In that time and in that space they had the circumstances described and needed the word from the Lord that was given.

However, these letters could not be prophetic and could not represent the church through the ages if the church were limited by time and space. If the church is limited by time and space then the letter written to Sardis 2,000 years ago has nothing to do with me today. If that is true then Witness Lee's messages are false.

Most Christians, myself and Witness Lee included, do not agree with that. We see the letter to believers 2,000 years ago living in Sardis to apply to us today. I don't live in Sardis, and yet I can see the same circumstances in churches today. The truth in that letter for the church is not bound by the city boundary of Sardis. The letter to the church "in Sardis" is not limited to believers living or meeting in Sardis. Therefore Sardis cannot simply refer to the boundary of a city 2,000 years ago but rather to a circumstance that the Body of Christ must pass through.

So then why do they have a messenger?

10 See that ye despise not one of these little ones: for I say unto you, that in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven

All the believers have angels. Matthew 18 makes it clear and in that chapter the promises are to two or three that meet in the name of the Lord.

What about the lamp stands?

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And having turned I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 and in the midst of the candlesticks one like unto a son of man,

compare this with Matt 18

20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Now compare this with the full context of Revelation 1

9 I John, your brother and partaker with you in the tribulation and kingdom and patience which are in Jesus, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet 11 saying, What thou seest, write in a book and send it to the seven churches: unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamum, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. 12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And having turned I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 and in the midst of the candlesticks one like unto a son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about at the breasts with a golden girdle.

John is in Patmos, but He is in Spirit, and Jesus was in his midst and was in the midst of the 7 golden lamp stands. If the city boundary is a boundary and it represents Sardis, or Ephesus, etc. how could John be there? In Spirit the church is not bound by time or space.

Matthew 18 says "wherever" -- proving that the Spirit is not bound by any spacial boundary. It can be "wherever".

Revelation 2 and 3 give seven "wherevers". These are not simply locations in time and space, they also represent specific circumstances. This confirms that it is "wherever".

Correct me if I am wrong, but is Revelation 2-3 the next portion, after Matthew 18, where Jesus talks about the church? Should we consider it a continuation of Matthew 16-18?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

How many churches are there? 1 or ten thousand?

It is an exercise in semantics. And for the LRC, an exercise in equivocation.

The term "church" has many aspects and is not a singular thing. It is the body of Christ, and in that since is singular universally. But it also refers to each assembly of believers who are part of that body. Those are the extremes of meaning. But that leaves a lot of ground in between (the so-called undistributed middle).

In the middle is any subgroup of those who make up the body of Christ. It is not even necessary that they be a regular part of any assembly (though that is strongly advised against). In that middle ground, it would be correct to refer to either church (singular) or churches (plural) within any particular defined space. There is "church" in any city, state/province, country, or continent because the body of Christ is there. There are also "churches" in any of those to the extent that there are multiple assemblies to be found.

There is nothing in scripture that puts a boundary on anything. It is appropriate to refer to the church in Dallas, meaning the body of Christ (the totality of believers) that are in that city. It is also appropriate to refer to churches in Dallas, meaning the various assemblies that meet there, including the one that uses the name "Church in Dallas."

The LRC insists that there is a prescriptive boundary of an assembly and that this boundary coincides with that of the city in which it is found. But if that is prescriptively true, then there is a problem when those who live in other cities nearby travel across city boundaries to meet in the alleged city-wide church in another city. For example, those in Garland, Mesquite, Richardson, Plano, Addison, Farmers Branch, Carrollton, etc., do not have an LSM-branded "local church" in their city, so they travel to Dallas. (It is possible that some of those travel to Irving. Also, I am a little behind on where there are LSM churches here so Richardson or Plano might have their own now.)

In doing so, they negate the much-heralded "unity" with respect to the much larger number of Christians in each of those cities (relative to the number that travel to Dallas) and meet outside of the boundary of their city.

But the truth is that cities have political boundaries. They change over time. Larger cities often absorb smaller cities to improve services within those smaller communities. And none of this is relevant to the makeup of the assemblies that meet to learn about and worship Christ.

I realize that I am not addressing the various points that ZNP has raised, though those are points that the LSM/LRC raises in asserting their faux superiority of position.

But there is no requirement of following anyone, even a so-called MOTA. Paul lamented that so many in Asia had "left me." And by the time of the writing of Revelation, there were some serious problems in some of the cities in Asia Minor. Yet they were still churches. Their lampstands were not removed. Christians still met to learn about and worship Christ. First Nee, then Lee, and now those from the LSM (like those from James) seek to dismiss all who do not follow their way. They tell tales of successions of MOTAs (genealogies) and insist that their faithful pay for standing orders for old materials recycled in new books, reminiscent of sending money for prayer cloths prayed over by radio evangelist (huckster) X.

If it were just about doctrines, I would not become as incensed. But it is also about the enslaving of the minds and pocketbooks of otherwise excellent Christians.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

It is an exercise in semantics. And for the LRC, an exercise in equivocation.

The term "church" has many aspects and is not a singular thing. It is the body of Christ, and in that since is singular universally. But it also refers to each assembly of believers who are part of that body. Those are the extremes of meaning. But that leaves a lot of ground in between (the so-called undistributed middle).

In the middle is any subgroup of those who make up the body of Christ. It is not even necessary that they be a regular part of any assembly (though that is strongly advised against). In that middle ground, it would be correct to refer to either church (singular) or churches (plural) within any particular defined space. There is "church" in any city, state/province, country, or continent because the body of Christ is there. There are also "churches" in any of those to the extent that there are multiple assemblies to be found.

There is nothing in scripture that puts a boundary on anything. It is appropriate to refer to the church in Dallas, meaning the body of Christ (the totality of believers) that are in that city. It is also appropriate to refer to churches in Dallas, meaning the various assemblies that meet there, including the one that uses the name "Church in Dallas."

The LRC insists that there is a prescriptive boundary of an assembly and that this boundary coincides with that of the city in which it is found. But if that is prescriptively true, then there is a problem when those who live in other cities nearby travel across city boundaries to meet in the alleged city-wide church in another city. For example, those in Garland, Mesquite, Richardson, Plano, Addison, Farmers Branch, Carrollton, etc., do not have an LSM-branded "local church" in their city, so they travel to Dallas. (It is possible that some of those travel to Irving. Also, I am a little behind on where there are LSM churches here so Richardson or Plano might have their own now.)

In doing so, they negate the much-heralded "unity" with respect to the much larger number of Christians in each of those cities (relative to the number that travel to Dallas) and meet outside of the boundary of their city.

But the truth is that cities have political boundaries. They change over time. Larger cities often absorb smaller cities to improve services within those smaller communities. And none of this is relevant to the makeup of the assemblies that meet to learn about and worship Christ.

A boundary refers to a limit of the sphere of activity. Matthew 18 gives a very specific "limit to the sphere of activity" of the church.

18 Verily I say unto you, What things soever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and what things soever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The sphere is the Earth. Cities are "political creations", with "ephemeral boundaries". But the Earth is God's creation with boundaries that He created. I agree that with the LRC it is an exercise in equivocation, but I don't agree that it is an exercise in semantics. Matt 18 refers to the church dealing with sin as a government and as a court would do. Both governments and courts have clearly defined spheres of influence.

Our sphere on Earth is clearly submissive to the Heaven. But if we are properly under the headship of Christ then what we bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Corinth was a local church.
Ephesus was a local church.
Where did one stop and one end? If you answer that, you answer the question about what is the boundary.

If you own property you probably know where your property starts and ends, but you can't figure out where the start and end of a local church is?

LSM has been in so many lawsuits over property and property lines, that they think the church must have definite boundary lines too.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Corinth was a local church.
Ephesus was a local church.
Where did one stop and one end? If you answer that, you answer the question about what is the boundary.

If you own property you probably know where your property starts and ends, but you can't figure out where the start and end of a local church is?

The "property" was purchased by Jesus on the cross and is owned by Him. He can certainly identify where it begins and ends. It is an item of the faith that we are the redeemed of the Lord. Nowhere is it taught in the NT that the Lord redeemed a particular city up to the boundary of that city. If a church meets in Houston, and then due to floods is forced to move to college station we simply refer to them now as "the church in college station". The boundary of the city or the condition of the city has nothing to do with their status as a church, only with the how to write them a letter. The city lines of Houston were not some boundary that the church was not permitted to cross.

In theory it works in practice, but in practice it doesn't. Many of the saints who met in "the Church in Houston" lived in Deer Park. Many of the saints who met in the Church in Odessa lived in Midland. Many of the saints in the church in NYC lived in cities in Long Island. In practice the boundary of any local church includes all those who subscribe to Witness Lee's teachings and are close enough to come and meet regularly, regardless of city boundaries.

[Drake]

ZNP>”When Jesus said He was going to be killed, that meant Peter was also going to lose his life, his dreams, his profit. Telling the Lord He would not go to the cross was not a true interpretation of scripture but a pathetic attempt to save his life.”

ZNP,

On what scriptural basis do you make these allegations about Peter’s motives and his action?

Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

ZNP>”When Jesus said He was going to be killed, that meant Peter was also going to lose his life, his dreams, his profit. Telling the Lord He would not go to the cross was not a true interpretation of scripture but a pathetic attempt to save his life.”

ZNP,

On what scriptural basis do you make these allegations about Peter’s motives and his action?

Drake

You are correct that this is an interpretation. It is based on these verses:

21 From that time began Jesus to show unto his disciples, that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and the third day be raised up.

This is what was said that prompted Peter to rebuke Jesus.

22 And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, [n]Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall never be unto thee. 23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art a stumbling-block unto me: for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men.

Here it is stated clearly but in vague terms that what prompted Peter is that he is minding the things of men.

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever would save his life shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what shall a man be profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and forfeit his life? or what shall a man give in exchange for his life?

The context of "deny himself" is Peter's rebuke of Jesus due to his "minding the things of men". Therefore I am equating these two based on the term "Then said Jesus". Likewise with "save his life" and "what shall a man be profited if he shall gain the whole world".

So in my interpretation Jesus is explaining what He means by saying that Peter was "minding the things of men"

Minding the things of men = 1. Self centered 2. Save your own life 3. Personal profit and 4. Gain the whole world. Minding the things of men is not equal to be empathetic and sympathetic to Jesus suffering.

In context self centered this would refer to Peter seeing himself as the right hand man of Jesus in this kingdom He is setting up on Earth. "Save your own life" means that when Jesus dies, Peter's position dies with it. "Personal profit" refers to Peter being concerned about the losses he'll suffer when Jesus dies. "Gain the whole world" refers to Peter seeing himself on the throne alongside of Jesus. Jesus saying He is going to go and die messes that up and prompts Peter to respond.

However, if you read 1Peter you can see references to all of the gospel accounts, and you can get into his mind much more. The entire epistle to my understanding shows a man who failed in the first crucifixion and realizes he will be given a second chance and is completely focused on how to go to deny himself, take up his cross, and and follow the Lord.

In contrast to this 1 Peter begins:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

According to the human concept when Jesus died, Peter's hope died with it. But when Jesus was resurrected, we were born again to a living hope. Our inheritance is incorruptible, whereas the human thought is that it would die with Jesus. Death did not defile it, nor did it fade away. I see this as a man who let the Lord's words sink deep into him, and his epistle is a response to the Lord's speaking to him throughout his entire life, not just during the gospels.

[JJ]

Thanks ZNP for leading us on this discussion on the Title. Very relevant and helpful for things I’ve been struggling to understand about “the practical expression of the church” (to borrow a term from Witness Lee).

One thing that is clear is that taking city as boundary has proven to be toxic in practice among the open brethren (Needed Truth branch) and TLR.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by JJ

Thanks ZNP for leading us on this discussion on the Title. Very relevant and helpful for things I’ve been struggling to understand about “the practical expression of the church” (to borrow a term from Witness Lee).

One thing that is clear is that taking city as boundary has proven to be toxic in practice among the open brethren (Needed Truth branch) and TLR.

Yes, and when we look at Revelation 2-3 as a continuation / case study of what the Lord spoke you see the development of the toxicity.

Smyrna -- Two groups, the liars call themselves the "chosen of God", "Jews", the so called elite christians. The name of their meeting hall is a very big issue. The synagogue of Satan indicates they violated the Lord's word concerning "minding the things of men". This also confirms the word in Matt 4 that Satan would return. Satan is the "prince of this world" and this church is "his synagogue".

this becomes more toxic in Pergamum

Pergamum -- No longer just synagogue of Satan, now it is a kingdom with the throne of Satan.

12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write:

These things saith he that hath the sharp two-edged sword: 13 I know where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s throne is; and thou holdest fast my name, and didst not deny my faith, even in the days [j]of Antipas my witness, my faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwelleth. 14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there some that hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit fornication. 15 So hast thou also some that hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans in like manner.

A kingdom has a boundary. So now they don't just have a great name for their meeting hall, they now have delineated a boundary for their kingdom. We see this progression in the doctrine of the ground of the church. The name of the church (the church with no name) is key, better than all other names. Then they define the church as having authority up to the boundary of the city. This is their kingdom. This kingdom has "the prince of this world" on the throne, so it is a worldly boundary to this kingdom. We are also reminded of Matt 18 where the Lord warned about "stumbling one of these little ones". He clarifies this and brings in Balaam as the example. According to Jewish history Balaam taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, teach them to commit fornication, and as a result destroy their testimony. Friendship with the world is a type of fornication. Marrying the church to the world is a fornication. Why would Balaam do this? A strong, vibrant, prevailing testimony by Israel threatened Balak's kingdom. We saw this with Witness Lee, the "rebellions" were designed to clean house of any that might rival him while at the same time bringing others in line (teaching them to commit fornication). As we have discussed on this forum many were stumbled by WL, PL, TL, and the puppet elders. Just as Ed Marks said, he signed the apology to PL because "it made WL happy". This is how they teach them to commit fornication and how they stumble the little ones.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by JJ

One thing that is clear is that taking city as boundary has proven to be toxic in practice among the open brethren (Needed Truth branch) and TLR.

We discussed that cities like Toronto, Canada have multiple LC assemblies all claiming to be the "unique" testimony of that city.

If we include "Needed Truth" and all of the other Exclusive Brethren splinter sects in Toronto, one wonders how our Lord can actually decide which of the dozen or more assemblies in that city He is supposed to recognize, and bless with His presence at their Table??

Why should our Lord recognize Nee or Lee to be your MOTA, when He has the likes of Darby, Kelly, Raven, Taylor, etc. to choose from?? Should He decide based on longevity (Darby) or perhaps having the most books (Lee)??

So many questions!!

Drake, please help, can you throw us a lifeline here?

[Drake]

-1

Ohio>”Drake, please help, can you throw us a lifeline here?”

Sure. Do you want to use “Ask the Audience”, 50-50, or “Phone-a-Friend”?

[ZNPaaneah]

The boundary, as we have seen from Typology is the "burnished brass" signifying the cross of Christ. The boundary as we have seen in Matt 16 is the cross of Christ.

If you ignore this we have the following progression

1. Ephesus -- great at judging others, not great at forgiving.

2. Smyrna -- Separated into two groups -- those that appear poor (yet are rich) and are suffering tribulation. The other group are the liars, those that say they are the chosen generation, the elite of God, they have a meeting hall with a great name. They make "the name of their meeting hall" the boundary instead of the cross.

3. Pergamum -- Grown worse, their synagogue is now a kingdom with a throne for Satan. They employ "Balaam" a false prophet, who puts stumbling blocks in front of the saints. His purpose is to eliminate any who might rival Balack's kingdom, and for those who will be puppets he teaches them to commit fornication. The faithful are being persecuted and put to death. They make the worldly boundary of Satan's kingdom their boundary instead of the cross.

4. Thyatira -- here "the Prophet" is an adulterous woman, a heathen, who appears chaste, but is notoriously evil. She proclaims that "she is a prophet". Maybe she even sets herself up as the Prophet of the Age.

18 And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write:

These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like a flame of fire, and his feet are like unto burnished brass: 19 I know thy works, and thy love and faith and ministry and patience, and that thy last works are more than the first. 20 But I have this against thee, that thou sufferest the woman Jezebel, who calleth herself a prophetess; and she teacheth and seduceth my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time that she should repent; and she willeth not to repent of her fornication. 22 Behold, I cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of her works. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he that searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto each one of you according to your works.

In every church you see these two groups. In Smyrna they are told to be faithful unto death. In Pergamum they are commended because they did not deny the faith. But in Thyatira he has something against them, that they tolerate this woman. Why would you tolerate Jezebel telling you she is the "Prophet of the age"? This is a very clear denial of Jesus who is our "Prophet of the Age".

[ZNPaaneah]

3And to the angel of the church in Sardis write:
These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars: I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and thou art dead. 2Be thou watchful, and establish the things that remain, which were ready to die: for I have found no works of thine perfected before my God.

There is a beautiful symmetry here. The synagogue of Satan in Smyrna has become an empty husk, it still has the name that it lives, but it is obviously and plainly dead. This is why Jesus rebuked Peter -- Get behind me Satan. This is where this "minding the things of men" leads. Nothing but the pretense of having a name that you live, when everyone can see you are dead. The things that are not dead yet are ready to die. No works are perfected, for all of their boasting and pomp they haven't accomplished anything.

3Remember therefore how thou hast received and didst hear; and keep it, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.


Remember Matt 16, remember the Lord's word that you have to follow Him to the cross. Remember His word about gaining the world and losing your soul.

4But thou hast a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments: and they shall walk with me in white; for they are worthy. 5He that overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. 6He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.

The vast majority of those who have travelled this road. Leaving their first love with unforgiveness. Being swayed by the synagogue of Satan, those that claim to be the chosen of God, but are simply liars. Building your little kingdom with Satan's throne right in the center and all of your persecution of the faithful witnesses. All of these ones have defiled their garments. I guess that is "old news". All those stains that they have never wanted to deal with all these years.

And we even have a window into their most heinous sins. "I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life". I didn't know this was an option. I didn't know that once your name is in the book of life it could be blotted out. But then, in the LRC, I saw as time and time again different ones were "blotted out". They were "poisoned". You could not "confess their names". So it shouldn't be a surprise, we were told in the gospels that "as you have done it will be done to you".

That is the way this seed grows:

Unforgiveness -- special name for the chosen ones -- grows into a worldly kingdom with worldly boundaries -- self proclaimed prophets

until the life is sucked dry and all you can see is either they are dead or ready to die. Their garments are all stained with stains that are decades old, no one wants to deal with that, it is old news. What are those stains? All those brothers and sisters they stumbled, the ones they blotted out. The lawsuits, excommunications, etc.