God in Life and Nature... Oh Really?

[Bradley]

I don't know if you guys have the same experience as me but even though I'm so much happier out of the LC and have no intention of ever returning, I sometimes get these irrational fears that somehow I'm spiritually completely screwed now, having gotten off the 'ark' that they were building. Like I've shot myself in the foot and now I'm destined for outer darkness - or is it just cult indoctrination, trying to shake off scare tactics that worked so well to keep me in the group for so long?

So I stop to consider. If they really were what they said they were, if they were today's ark etc, then there should be some testimony. A lampstand is supposed to have light on it. If they really are becoming God in life and nature, then they should, on average, be better people than others who are not God in life and nature.

But I don't see that. I see a lot of people refraining from doing fun things (that they consider 'worldly') but anyone can do that, thats just self-discipline. I see people who are really zealous and passionate about their faith and thats nice, but I know passionate Muslims, doesn't mean anything.

God is love. If they were becoming God they would be becoming love, like hardcore agape love. They'd be super-loving people. All I can see though is some spiritually arrogant religious people

When I left my ex wife because she was abusive, I have never been so badly treated by so many people at once for such unreasonable reasons and with such unreasonable demands. I was told by many different people that it doesn't matter if she is abusive, or that there was no sex in our marriage, or that she made me absolutely miserable. I can't get divorced, period. I should either return to my ex or stay separated and single. I should never have a relationship with another woman, i.e. I should be lonely and celibate for the rest of my life.

Fortunately I was surrounded by loving and supportive people during this time, friends and family (who were not 'God in life and nature') without whom I could never have healed so well. I never received anything but kindness and support from anyone who wasn't in the LC. That's what caused me to realise that the LC loved me no more than my ex did, and treated me about the same - so I left them too, like another abusive spouse. Whenever I wonder whether I made the right decision or not I just remember this.

A few months ago I had what Pink Floyd calls a 'momentary lapse of reason' and freaked out, thinking I made a mistake in leaving the local church - so I contacted a well-known coworker and asked him for help. He couldn't care less about my situation. He just brushed me off and told me to repent and return to my ex. He goes from country to country holding conferences and trainings, but when a person he's known for almost a decade comes to him asking him desperately for help with his Christian life, he shrugs him off like the priest and the levite did to the dying man in Luke 10, he didn't have five minutes to think of some advice.

If the 'saints' in the 'recovery' were becoming God in life and nature, by definition they would be more loving than 'worldly' people. Or at the very least, equal to? But not less than. Oh but thats just the laymen, what about the high authority big brothers who run the show? Nope just as bad. One leading brother told me that if a brother beat his wife, she shouldn't leave him but she should just pray for him to repent.

Of course, God is not just love, he's righteousness. Maybe it'd be okay for everybody to come down on me like a tonne of bricks if I was the bad guy and I was doing a terrible thing, like they're expressing God in His righteousness. But its not like I cheated on my ex because she was flat-chested, that wasn't what happened. She threatened to kill me and I left her because I feared for my safety. Not the same ballpark. But nobody seems to be giving her a hard time for that, they're all on her side like she's some kind of victim.

It seems to me that if they're becoming God in life and nature, they're becoming the Old Testament God who flooded the world, burned Sodom to the ground, sent plagues to slaughter the Egyptians and fiery serpents to bite His people.

[UntoHim]

Thanks Bradley for popping on by and making a great post!

I think there are quite a number of forum members who have experienced something very close to what you have described. Maybe some others can chime in here and confirm my suspicions.
-

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Bradley

I don't know if you guys have the same experience as me but even though I'm so much happier out of the LC and have no intention of ever returning

Hey Bradley,

Thanks for sharing, it is not surprising to me that you are much happier outside of the LSm churches. The richness of Christ and His Spirit are real and true - the same can not be said for Witness Lee and his ministry. There are "good", passionate people in the LSm churches, but as you said, there are "good" passionate people that believe in Islam, Scientology, Mormanism, etc. They are not today's ark - that is painfully obvious. And it Witness Lee isn't who he claimed he was - where does that leave him? If his "ministry" isn't what he claimed it was - where does that leave it? It is all in vanity, striving after the wind.

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.

[Bradley]

So what you're saying with these verses from 1 Cor 15 is:

Now if [the local churches really are the Ark], how can some of you say that [bro Lee was not the Minister of the Age]? But if [bro Lee was not the Minister of the Age], then [the local churches are not really the Ark]. And if [the local churches are not really the Ark], then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about [the local churches, who are not the ark] if it is true that [bro Lee was not the minister of the age]. For if [bro Lee was not the Minister of the Age], [the local churches are not really the Ark]. And if [the local churches are not really the Ark], your faith is futile and you are still in [a silly cult]. Then those also who have [lived their whole life for the LSM] [essentially wasted their lives]. If in Christ we have hope in this [cult] only, we are of all people most to be pitied.

[aron]

Bradley,

I'm sure they never spent much time telling you about the history of the Daystar Motorhome Company.

In 1972 [W.E. Miller] gave up editing the Gazette and took a full-time position as chief engineer/designer with Daystar Motor Homes, Inc., 1414 West Artesia Blvd., Compton, California. The firm's $70,000 26' luxury motor home was built on a Dodge 440 commercial truck chassis by a third party in Taiwan named Phosphorous, a Chinese-American firm connected with Witness Lee's Southern Californian 'Local Church'.
Miller even travelled to Phosphorous' Kaohsiung, Taiwan (Republic of China) factory to make arrangements for the construction of the Cor-Ten steel body and teak interior. Only 16 Daystars are known to have been constructed before the firm closed down in 1975, the victim of an alleged money-laundering scheme initiated by Phosphorous' directors Timothy Lee, Samuel Chang and K.H. Weigh.

http://www.coachbuilt.com/des/m/miller/miller.htm

Or, what about the installation and maintenance of admittedly 'unspiritual' son Philip as office manager at LSM?

Witness Lee wasn't even qualified to be an elder in a local assembly, per Titus 1:5-7. The all-too-human association basing its existence on his supposed apostleship has no power over your life. None. And his teachings which percolated through your brain have only as much credence as you willingly give them. No more or less.

My salvation was not to reject Lee et al. My salvation was to "see Jesus", per Hebrews 2:9. Once I saw Jesus, and realised that Lee & Co weren't seeing Jesus but "God's economy" and "the church life" etc then I didn't have to hang out with them anymore. I was free to go on my own path.

Just see Jesus, and follow that vision. That becomes your pathway home to the Father. He's right there, in the Word. He's been there all along. The Holy Spirit will reveal Him to you.

[Bradley]

Yep I heard of Daystar and Lee's dodgy son. Yesterday I was reading a thread on this forum discussing a book about Watchman Nee being a sex offender and a rapist. Shocking stuff. Its a lot to take in after twelve years of being in that group, more than 1/3 of my life (I'm 33 right now).

Originally Posted by aron

My salvation was not to reject Lee et al. My salvation was to "see Jesus" ... The Holy Spirit will reveal Him to you.

Absolutely. He does. I don't want to give up on God just because I left 'the church'.

A week ago I bumped into an older sister in town while I was walking down the street and made polite small talk. She made a comment when I asked her how her life was, that 'there is a higher life'. Absolutely, amen, yup yup totally. What bothered me about what she said was not that she tried to remind me of the Lord, but that she assumed that because I had left, I was now completely godless and walking in sin. The implication was that if I repented then I would see the light and return to 'the church'.

I have no intention of ever returning but I also have no intention of leaving the Lord. I just have to figure out how to be a Christian all over again, and what I should and should not believe. Its going to take a few years.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Bradley

I have no intention of ever returning but I also have no intention of leaving the Lord. I just have to figure out how to be a Christian all over again, and what I should and should not believe. Its going to take a few years.

And your story will help others on the same path.

Imagine how the disciples felt, leaving the all-encompassing religion of Judaism. After Jesus ascended, all they had was His Spirit within, a handful of believers around them, and perhaps an Old Testament scroll was available. Today, just on my cell phone or my ipad, I have dozens of translations, commentaries, LCD forums for feedback, and search engines. I can't believe the early disciples did as well as they did.

[JJ]

[QUOTE=Bradley;66863

So I stop to consider. If they really were what they said they were, if they were today's ark etc, then there should be some testimony. [/QUOTE]

Bradley, scrub your brain of such stuff.

The real Noah is Jesus Christ (not Witness Lee); the real Ark is built in His resurrection by Him and His family (the assembly of believers fathered by Him and following His leading. This is not exclusive to LSM Churches. When the doubting, Godless, corrupt and persecuting world that rejects His gospel is judged and baptized in fire rather than a flood, Jesus Christ and His faithful followers will float up above it all as the corporate Christ-Ark to a salvation that is waiting to be revealed in The last days.

They’ve gotten the lamp stand and many other analogies backwards too.

They have a god complex that is very dangerous!

So, does Satan.

[JJ]

OK, more backward things:

We become God in life. Nope. Christ is our life.

We become God in nature? Nope. We have become partakers of the divine nature.

Not in the God-head? Yup.

Scrub, scrub, scrub! Read the Bible again, throw out Witness Lee’s mangling of it!

[awareness]

God in life and nature was just wishful thinking ... that Lee used to keep his followers on a string.

[Evangelical]

Its called high peak revelation. Not everyone attains to the heights. Most of the respected early church fathers knew it even those who knew the disciples of the apostles believed it and would not take issue with Lees teaching which is really a paraphrase of theirs, and theirs is much more explicit.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Its called high peak revelation. Not everyone attains to the heights.

Where did this term come from?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Its called high peak revelation. Not everyone attains to the heights. Most of the respected early church fathers knew it even those who knew the disciples of the apostles believed it and would not take issue with Lees teaching which is really a paraphrase of theirs, and theirs is much more explicit.

That's for sure. Not even Paul, Peter, or John.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Its called high peak revelation. Not everyone attains to the heights. Most of the respected early church fathers knew it even those who knew the disciples of the apostles believed it and would not take issue with Lees teaching which is really a paraphrase of theirs, and theirs is much more explicit.

Sometimes bro EvanG, you make me wonder if you are just playing with us. But you have made me wonder.

I'm no scholar of early Christianity, but I dabble in it enough to be dangerous. Perhaps in my dabbling I missed it in my reading of early Christianity. Please help me expanded my knowledge of it.

Can you please source or cite where you find "respected early church fathers" speaking, writing, or being quoted, concerning : "high peek revelation?"

Until Witness Lee I never heard the term "high peek revelation." Isn't that just a euphemism for : "I'm getting the good stuff straight from God. I'm God's minister of the age?" And then, "if you don't listen to me, and do what I say, I'll take this high peek revelation of God away from you.

I know some out here don't like the word cult thrown around willy-nilly, but this walks and quacks like a duck.

[aron]

Originally Posted by JJ

OK, more backward things:

We become God in life. Nope. Christ is our life.

We become God in nature? Nope. We have become partakers of the divine nature.

Not in the God-head? Yup.

Scrub, scrub, scrub! Read the Bible again, throw out Witness Lee’s mangling of it!

"We become God". . ."we enjoy Christ" in the hyper-subjective world of the LsM it's not about Christ but about us. "Christ" is just a prop to be either waved or ignored. It's all about me, me, me. . .

Peter found out the hard way what happens when you take your eyes off of Jesus. Things degenerate instantly (Matt 14:28-30). "The Bride eyes not her garment" we used to sing. But Lee taught us to look at nothing but our "experiences", our sensations and subjective responses, which are O so slippery and so easily shaded with slithery and subtle things. Again, ask Peter - how easy it is go from Channeling the Father (Matt 16:17) to becoming a Vector for Satan (v.23)!

In Lee-land it's all about me and my abstract overlays, and the ooey-gooey sensation I get upon congratulating myself for scaling the "high peak", and for shouting the right phrases in front of awe-struck, wide-eyed infants.

What's the difference between the Spotless Bride and the Great Harlot? One was looking at her Husband, and one was looking at herself. I was reading the RecV a while back and saw that the King of Israel was a type of lc elder "enjoying grace", per the footnotes in Deuteronomy 17. And where was Jesus? Jesus who? "Rabbi, You are the Son of God, You are the King of Israel!" Nope, not in Deuteronomy 17. The lc elder is king of Israel.