Repetition, Ritual, Religion

[aron]

I got a copy of a recent publication, a HWMR on Hebrews, and was looking at today's entry. Week 6, Day 2. It was revewing Hebrews 7:25. I noticed that in the first 4 paragraphs, he uses the word "intercession" or "intercessor" 12 times. He just keeps saying the same thing, over and over again. It's creepy. Is this some Eastern 'mantra' thing? Is he trying to get us to some altered state? I mean, I get that he wants to make a point. But 12 times? Are we really that dull?

And he uses the word 4 more times as well; 16 times total in one 'daily portion' of 9 paragraphs.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I got a copy of a recent publication, a HWMR on Hebrews, and was looking at today's entry. Week 6, Day 2. It was revewing Hebrews 7:25. I noticed that in the first 4 paragraphs, he uses the word "intercession" or "intercessor" 12 times. He just keeps saying the same thing, over and over again. It's creepy. Is this some Eastern 'mantra' thing? Is he trying to get us to some altered state? I mean, I get that he wants to make a point. But 12 times? Are we really that dull?

And he uses the word 4 more times as well; 16 times total in one 'daily portion' of 9 paragraphs.

If they really believed that Jesus was able to save them to the uttermost because He always lives to intercede for them, then why do they file lawsuits against all outsiders who critique them and quarantine all insiders who speak their conscience?

They have so much useless human activity. Their teachings are merely dead doctrines to them. Where is their simple trust in the great High Priest? As the song says, "trust and obey, for there's no other way."

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

They have so much useless human activity. Their teachings are merely dead doctrines to them.

Well, yes and no. I do see your point from a both a doctrinal and experiential perspective. But my point is that repetitive chanting opens one up to spiritual forces. Yes, some of that seems quite positive, initially. What's wrong with repeating words translated from the Bible? Or repeatedly calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Precisely this: that words of themselves will never save you, and are the "vain repetitions of the gentiles'' that Jesus spoke of in Matt 6:7; also that when using repetition one begins to experience a subjectively altered state where suggestions, even unspoken ones, begin to take hold, and control. Watchman Nee was called "mesmerising" by those who saw him. They say that people imitated his clicking noises when his false teeth touched. Lee learned from the master. I wonder, how many times Lee spoke the word "intercede" in the actual message cited in that HWMR? Even after "polishing" it looks weird. He just keeps saying the same thing over and over and over again.

Others noticed this trend as well. Here's a comment from a discussion board of the Geftakys Assembly, another high-demand, post-Brethren spin-off run by George Geftakys, their own special anointed brother. The thread was discussing similarities and differences between the two groups.

Originally Posted by Assembly Board

Hi Dave K. !

You probably don't remember me, (Mark Campbell from the Valley) but I remember you from the early Fullerton Assm. days.

My recollections of you were formed by a campaign to discredit you by Assm. management and I apologize to you for my blindly accepting the smear campaign that was directed at you---- please forgive me for this.

As to Witness Lee: I often ran into members of this group at school, and at work (I worked with one of these guys at one job and also had an association via another job where they were contractors). They didn't want to talk about theology (such as their views of the Trinity) as that was disparaged as being, "in the mind." I recall Tom Mad's response to this: "are you out of yours?" ;D

I recall having to drop off some things at the work place of the contractors I mentioned above one day when about ten of them circled me and began to chant, "O' Lord Jesus", trying to get me to say that phrase so that a vacuum would be created in my heart that the Spirit could fill ???. I found out later that they based this teaching on the Rom. 10 verse re. "who confesses Jesus as Lord" will be saved.

This kind of thing seems to be heavily influenced by Eastern religious thinking, as does the other less wacko "inner life" kind of stuff that the Assm. was also into. As Tom points out, the fruit of these kind of teachings prove how close to God's will they really are--- elitist, hypocritical, inhumane, arrogant, and unreasonable!

Tom mentions that the ability to reason is what most closely demonstrates our being made in God's image, and I would agree with this. However, that intellectual ability must also be coupled with a moral sensitivity or our religion will lack God's heart.

Both of these groups, Witness Lee and the Assm., were out of sync with God not only because they had confused thinking, but because the groups were able to get members to ignore their own consciences. This led to the kind of abuses where members (like you) could get drummed out because of the false accusations they raised against them!

It was good that you had some previous Christian training and experience, but think of the many who now wander the Earth thinking they "tried that Christian thing" and as a result now have no enjoyment of God. There are those who can't step inside a church anymore as they fear what might happen to them! :'(

To me a cult is a cult (primarily) when it is more concerned with advancing the selfish interests of the leader/leaders, and the goals of the group, vs. building the faith of the individual member. Cults attempt to destroy any vestige of individual expression while true God inspired ministry seeks to "buildup" the individual believer in their faith. This is a danger any Christian group can get into and the reason Jesus, Paul, Peter, etc. constantly reminded us of this error.

This cultish attempt to violate personal boundaries can be performed while seeming to be very orthodox in ones teaching of the bible. All of the "cultishness" happens via subtle alternations and misuse of scripture--- as in: "brother, are you standing in unity with us or are you going to give place to the devil?" >

However, those that courageously challenge those who misuse authority in the church are the true servants of Jesus Christ; in a cult these will be forced out!

Good to hear from you. God bless, Mark C.

The chanting impinges on the ability to think clearly & rationally, a capacity given to us by God. This opens us up to unseen and unrecognized forces coming in, carried through the message. Then words like "oneness", "mingling", "consummation" and "processed" all get their own special subjective response. Thus it is much worse than merely dead doctrines (which would be bad enough).

"Now we only care for the Body." But we don't love our neighbour. "We only care for Good Building Material (naive college students)." But we don't care for the poor, the sick, the weak, for those who cannot repay us in this age. And so forth. Chant "Four legs good, two legs bad" often enough, and it will take on a life of it's own. But not the divine life. If you want the website the discussion was found on, it's here:

http://www.assemblyboard.com/index.p...ic=1299.0;wap2

And remember, in mainland China they didn't chant bible verses so much as Witness Lee slogans. I'm talking about hour after hour of chanting, day after day. I saw videos of this, smuggled out. No wonder it all went south so badly.

[Freedom]

At a basic level, I think WL's use of repetition could be attributed to the fact that he had a lot less to say than he would have liked anyone to believe. I remember when I was reading through the Life-Studies, time after time, I encountered passages that were essentially repeats of something I had just read. I never though much of it, and just assumed the repetition was being employed as a rhetorical device for emphasis - a minor annoyance. It would seem, however, that it would be hard for anyone to argue such was the case, because there are plenty of examples where the repetition was clearly unnecessary. Probably most LCers don’t think much of it.

That being said, I think repetition can be used to induced an 'altered' state to the extent that it is used to manipulate. I wouldn’t say it is definitely used that way 100% of the time, however, I have seen clear examples of it being used manipulatively. For example, I was in the car once with an elder, it was just the two of us. The entire drive, he wanted to call on the Lord out loud, and I really had no choice to do the same. It quickly got to the point where I felt it was awkward, but what could I do? If I told him we should stop, then I'm sure he would have found some way to criticize me. But in a situation like that, there are all kinds of conversations that could have taken place, even a 'spiritual' conversation. By being pressured to engage in a repetitive calling on the Lord, the hidden implication was that having a normal conversation, particularly small talk, was not acceptable. So it can be guaranteed that kind of repetition is used in a manipulative manner.

Just from what I've seen of WL's printed ministry, all the repetition, the emphasis of things that don't need it, it seems there is a least one noticeable side effect. That is that people who read it assume that the repetition is for their own good. They think that as "small potatoes" if they can't understand why WL spoke on a certain topic so much, then they shouldn't question it. So it serves to keep people in their place. Then people get bizarre ideas about needing to pray-read and 'digest' it, constantly trying to decipher it. It diverts attention, keeps them from moving on to more profitable things.

I watched a youtube video some time ago where one of the blendeds was telling everyone about the ‘proper’ way to read the Life-Studies. The claim was that it was necessary to find and understand WL’s ‘burden’ behind each message. Of course, if someone actually tried do that, it would be a wild goose chase, because only WL knew his ‘burden’. But again, what this does is keep everyone at the elementary school level. They read and somewhat understand WL’s words, but they never graduate to the position of being capable of scrutinizing it or looking beyond it.

[OGOP]

Precisely this: that words of themselves will never save you, and are the "vain repetitions of the gentiles'' that Jesus spoke of in Matt 6:7;

That is very interesting to read Matt 6:7. Thanks for sharing.

Also very interesting to note the differences between the King James version versus the Recovery version.

"KJV: But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

"Recovery: And in praying do not 1babble empty words as the Gentiles do; for they suppose that in their amultiplicity of words they will be heard.

1-This does not mean that we should not repeat our prayer. The Lord repeated His prayer three times in Gethsemane (26:44), the apostle Paul prayed the same prayer three times (2 Cor. 12:8), and the great multitude in heaven praised God repeatedly with hallelujahs (Rev. 19:1-6). It means that we should not repeat empty words, words spoken in vain. "

Very scary to see the differences.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by OGOP

That is very interesting to read Matt 6:7. Thanks for sharing.

Also very interesting to note the differences between the King James version versus the Recovery version.

"KJV: But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

"Recovery: And in praying do not 1babble empty words as the Gentiles do; for they suppose that in their amultiplicity of words they will be heard.

1-This does not mean that we should not repeat our prayer. The Lord repeated His prayer three times in Gethsemane (26:44), the apostle Paul prayed the same prayer three times (2 Cor. 12:8), and the great multitude in heaven praised God repeatedly with hallelujahs (Rev. 19:1-6). It means that we should not repeat empty words, words spoken in vain. "

Very scary to see the differences.

If you go here:

http://biblehub.com/matthew/6-7.htm


You will find that the Recovery version of this verse is virtually the same as many other versions.

ESV: “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words.

[OBW]

"KJV: But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

. . .

This does not mean that we should not repeat our prayer. The Lord repeated His prayer three times in Gethsemane (26:44), the apostle Paul prayed the same prayer three times (2 Cor. 12:8), and the great multitude in heaven praised God repeatedly with hallelujahs (Rev. 19:1-6). It means that we should not repeat empty words, words spoken in vain."

It is not even opposing the repeating of mere words. The footnote acknowledges that Paul prayed the same thing thee times (on three different occasions, it is presumed), and Jesus did not merely repeat a few words in rapid succession.

But even that is not prohibited by the warning against vain repetition. The problem is what is being repeated and how and why it is repeated. Those scenes from Revelation have a group continually falling down and crying out "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty . . . ." Not vain. Just repeated.

And it is easy to declare that someone else's repetition is vain, but not yours (or mine). But do we know? Maybe. But maybe not.

I note that the warning was to those who would be trying to "reach God," not to observers of those people. In other words, the warning is not to me so I can judge others based on my opinion of their vanity, or lack thereof. It is to me to be ware that I do not simply mouth words over and over in hopes that they do something for me.

Same words. Different source. Different result.

At times, no matter how bad I think a lot of LRC teachings are, it is the ingrained attitude that they need to compare themselves to others in a judgmental way that seems the most insufferable. Like the Pharisee raising his voice to God to compare himself to the publican over in the corner who is honestly crying out "be merciful to me a sinner."