Theological Questions, please help (Darby, "na ling", God man)

[ByHisGrace]

Hi everyone,

I was wondering if someone could kindly point me to discussion groups that discuss the following things:

1. John Nelson Darby, I heard that he's a controversial figure in the christian community and is warned against by Charles Spurgeon (spiritual giant). I also understand that Witness Lee actually draws a lot of his inspiration from Darby, which is why Darby is the most recognized non-LC person amongst people in the LC.

2. An LC member mentioned John 7:39 to me. In the chinese RcV bible, Br. Lee uses the term "na ling" to describe the Holy Spirit. Apparently, Br Lee created a term to describe the Holy Spirit before and after the resurrection of Christ. In the english RcV, it says "the Spirit is not yet." In other translations, it reads "the Spirit has not yet been given." I find this to be one of many verses in the RcV that misleads readers so that Br Lee could easily introduce HIS theology.

3. I found out that Darby's translation of the bible is similar to the RcV. Do you know the credibility of the Darby Bible?

4. What exactly is "All Inclusive Christ" and other terms invented by Br Lee, is there a discussion board on the terms and what they mean and whether they make sense? How to make sense of them?

5. I watched a video on cults and a lot of them mentioned "God man". When I brought it up with an LC member, he said that they use it out of context, that's why they're cults. Is there a discussion board on what exactly "God man" means in the LC and whether this is acceptable? I know that God man technically means, God dispensing himself into us so that we have his life and when we have his life, we are essentially "God men". But, how can we put ourselves into the same class as God Himself? My understanding is that, we are ADOPTED children of God. We don't deserve salvation but because God is merciful, by His grace, we are saved. So the concept of God man seems a bit fishy to me.. then again, I do know of some verses used by cults like John 10:34-37 which reads, "Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, ' I have said you are "gods"'? If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came - and Scripture cannot be set aside...." (NLT)

Thank you so much for your time and for reading this. Please feel free in answering some or ALL of these questions I'm very interested in hearing about what everyone knows about this.

If you know anyone who might be able to understand my questions better or are interested in my questions, could you please refer me to him/her? Thank you and God bless!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ByHisGrace

3. I found out that Darby's translation of the bible is similar to the RcV. Do you know the credibility of the Darby Bible?

Both the Darby translation and the RecVersion are good translations. Darby is late 19th century British English, so some grammar and semantics are more difficult for the modern reader, but both are great improvements over the King James Version.

I personally no longer use the RecVersion in public, rather only at home. I still use my RecVers Bibles (70's Ingalls and 90's Robichaux editions) because of familiarity. With other Christians I use the New KJV, the NIV, the NLT, or whatever version I like that day on my IPad. When other Christians saw my "Recovery" version, they thought I was in drug and alcohol rehab.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by ByHisGrace

Hi everyone,

I was wondering if someone could kindly point me to discussion groups that discuss the following things:

1. John Nelson Darby, I heard that he's a controversial figure in the christian community and is warned against by Charles Spurgeon (spiritual giant). I also understand that Witness Lee actually draws a lot of his inspiration from Darby, which is why Darby is the most recognized non-LC person amongst people in the LC.

2. An LC member mentioned John 7:39 to me. In the chinese RcV bible, Br. Lee uses the term "na ling" to describe the Holy Spirit. Apparently, Br Lee created a term to describe the Holy Spirit before and after the resurrection of Christ. In the english RcV, it says "the Spirit is not yet." In other translations, it reads "the Spirit has not yet been given." I find this to be one of many verses in the RcV that misleads readers so that Br Lee could easily introduce HIS theology.

3. I found out that Darby's translation of the bible is similar to the RcV. Do you know the credibility of the Darby Bible?

4. What exactly is "All Inclusive Christ" and other terms invented by Br Lee, is there a discussion board on the terms and what they mean and whether they make sense? How to make sense of them?

5. I watched a video on cults and a lot of them mentioned "God man". When I brought it up with an LC member, he said that they use it out of context, that's why they're cults. Is there a discussion board on what exactly "God man" means in the LC and whether this is acceptable? I know that God man technically means, God dispensing himself into us so that we have his life and when we have his life, we are essentially "God men". But, how can we put ourselves into the same class as God Himself? My understanding is that, we are ADOPTED children of God. We don't deserve salvation but because God is merciful, by His grace, we are saved. So the concept of God man seems a bit fishy to me.. then again, I do know of some verses used by cults like John 10:34-37 which reads, "Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, ' I have said you are "gods"'? If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came - and Scripture cannot be set aside...." (NLT)

Thank you so much for your time and for reading this. Please feel free in answering some or ALL of these questions I'm very interested in hearing about what everyone knows about this.

If you know anyone who might be able to understand my questions better or are interested in my questions, could you please refer me to him/her? Thank you and God bless!

I like Hern's answer for number 1-3

Re: number 4: "All Inclusive Christ" is a term Witness Lee used quite a bit in an attempt to summarize the truth that "Christ is all and in all" to the believers who compose "the New Man" (Colossians 3:11). This term is probably best described in his book by that Title. (see http://www.amazon.com/The-All-Inclus.../dp/0870830201)

I prefer to use the words "Christ who is all and in all" rather than "All Inclusive Christ" because the second term can be taken in an external pantheistic way. When it is more a matter of the extensiveness of Christ to each believer, and that Christ lives in each believer.

Re: number 5: Witness Lee used the words "God-man" a lot for Jesus himself (who is God and man), and for believers of Christ who have been washed in his blood and filled with His Holy Spirit. The second part drew a lot of criticism. He spent a lot of time trying to defend his use of the term, often saying that believers have God's life, nature, expression, and content, but not His god-head (i.e. do not become objects of worship or share His position as Lord of the universe).

If you have other terms, just post them on these boards. Many of us here are very familiar with his teachings, but don't necessarily agree with them.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ByHisGrace

1. John Nelson Darby, I heard that he's a controversial figure in the christian community and is warned against by Charles Spurgeon (spiritual giant). I also understand that Witness Lee actually draws a lot of his inspiration from Darby, which is why Darby is the most recognized non-LC person amongst people in the LC.

There might be a "Bretheren" discussion board somewhere on Darby. Not sure. Never looked. I heard good things about him whilst in the LC. He was "God's man of the hour", to be followed by Nee and Lee. Absolute for God and for truth, yada yada.

Here on this discussion forum, brother Ohio is somewhat of the knowledgable one. What little I've seen of Darby (I recently read some of his letters re: the expelled brothers), is that he thought himself into a dark pit and couldn't find the doorway out.

A veneer of brotherly love and a pool of poisonous vitriol lurking beneath (I know, somewhat like myself. Amen).

On the "Jewish Roots" thread, sister Dancing quoted a scholar saying that the Greek church was all about doctrines, truths, teachings, and knowledge.* The (Christian) Jews were more about how was your living?

There is no legalistic, hard-and-fast "truth for the age" beyond to love one another, and show this in good works, not as a condition of salvation, but out of gratitude to God who saved us by grace. The Spirit of the Son now works in us to yearn for our suffering fellows.

On contrast, people like Darby left behind reams of teachings, which they used to split the saints apart. No wonder Witness Lee loved the guy. Truth after truth after truth, with no works. No reality. Just teachings.

Dancing's quote said that the "Law" was conditional. People like Jesus (Rabbis) would have the power to say what applied and what didn't. In other words, yes respect the Sabbath, but if your cow fell in the ditch it was okay to pull the poor thing out. The "legal eagles" said, let it die. No compassion, no love. Jesus called them on it.

*"The Greeks seek wisdom... (1 Cor 1:22)etc"

[ByHisGrace]

Thank you so much for your responses everyone.

Thank you Aron, I will go read into "the expelled brothers". I will also go search for that brethren discussion board

Yes, the LC tend to emphasize how great Darby was and that one of the spiritual giants whom Witness Lee stands on the shoulders of is this guy. So I want to do some more research on him.

As for the recovery version - I believe that Witness Lee wrote this bible according to "his vision of God and the Church". For example, he takes out the word "adopted" in Ephesians 1:5 "Adopted into sonship" and some other places in the bible, in order for the concept of "God's economy" and "God men" to make more sense.. Sorry if I'm repeating some of the things you all have already gone over. As I've said before, if there is a discussion board that covers this,Thank you Aron, I will go read into "the expelled brothers". I will also go search for that brethren discussion board

Yes, the LC tend to emphasize how great Darby was and that one of the spiritual giants whom Witness Lee stands on the shoulders of is this guy. So I want to do some more research on him.

As for the recovery version - I believe that Witness Lee wrote this bible according to "his vision of God and the Church". For example, he takes out the word "adopted" in Ephesians 1:5 "Adopted into sonship" and some other places in the bible, in order for the concept of "God's economy" and "God men" to make more sense.. Sorry if I'm repeating some of the things you all have already gone over. As I've said before, if there is a discussion board that covers this,please let me know!

I also agree with Aron that the LC doesn't do much "good works", such as going out and helping the poor as opposed to other churches. The LC seem to think that gaining more knowledge and calling on the name of the Lord is enough. Of course, they are good to their own members though.. They treat their own members very well, but hardly interact with Christians outside because they still hold a view that they are superior. (I'm sure there are exceptions) I hear that they still rant and put down other Christians at their conferences/FTT/ fellowships. I've never heard this in any other churches. Why take up precious time to get into God's word by criticizing other Christians? It's just the culture there I suppose, but it definitely makes me question the fruits in which they potentially produce... Not to say that everyone is this way of course. But leading ones openly condemning other Christians during a bible conference? Ok, I'll stop now. Anyways, every church has its flaws so I wouldn't spend too much time on this.

As for "All Inclusive Christ", from my humble perspective, I think that the phrase is as meaningful as "All Inclusive Man". "All Inclusive Man" meaning a man with a body, soul and spirit, as well as a mind of his own and organs. Do you know what I mean? Everything WL says about "All Inclusive Christ" has been said by many before him. It's just that WL put a term to it..The phrase was created to make WL sound like he's onto something new, that he has a clearer vision towards God, the Bible and the Church. But in fact, the term simply means "Christ". God basically says in Exodus 3:13-15 "I am who I am.. " Using terms like "All Inclusive Christ" (to me) is like trying to make your mark on a master piece. You think that by painting another dot onto the Mona Lisa, you'll make it look better. Anyways, if I am wrong, please correct me. I am only here to learn and try to understand.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ByHisGrace

Yes, the LC tend to emphasize how great Darby was and that one of the spiritual giants whom Witness Lee stands on the shoulders of is this guy. So I want to do some more research on him.

1. STEM Publishing: Hamilton Smith: Open Brethren,

http://www.stempublishing.com/author.../OPENBRET.html

2. STEM Publishing: William Kelly: The Doctrine of Christ, and Bethesdaism.
http://www.stempublishing.com/author.../dochrist.html


3. STEM Publishing: J. N. Darby: The Bethesda Circular
http://www.stempublishing.com/author...NE/15009E.html


4. STEM Publishing: W. Trotter: The Origin of (so-called) Open-Brethrenism.
http://www.stempublishing.com/author.../Openbret.html



5. STEM Publishing : Magazines : The Bible Treasury : Volume 13 : "Open" "Exclusivism"
http://www.stempublishing.com/magazi...clusivism.html


6. STEM Publishing: J. N. Darby: Indifference to Christ: or Bethesdaism - extracted from a private letter
http://www.stempublishing.com/author...IA/20013E.html


7. STEM Publishing: J. N. Darby: A Plain Statement of the Doctrine on the Sufferings of our blessed Lord propounded in some recent tracts, in extracts taken from the Author's writings.
http://www.stempublishing.com/author...NE/15004E.html


8. STEM Publishing: J. N. Darby: The refusal of Mr. Newton to meet the brethren.
http://www.stempublishing.com/author...IA/20003E.html

9. STEM Publishing: J. N. Darby: Notice of the Statement and Acknowledgment of Error circulated by Mr. Newton.
http://www.stempublishing.com/author...NE/15005E.html

10 STEM Publishing: C. H. Mackintosh: Fifteenth Letter to a Friend. http://www.stempublishing.com/author.../CHM_15TH.html

11. STEM Publishing: J. N. Darby: Notice of the Statement and Acknowledgment of Error circulated by Mr. Newton.
http://www.stempublishing.com/author...NE/15005E.html

This was where I got my opinion that Darby had a pool of vitriol beneath a sanctimonious veneer.

I don't know the background of the contretemps in question. The main thing I remember Darby writing was that Mueller (or Newton) over-stressed the humanity of Jesus, that Jesus Himself "would need a savior" in their thought-world. And for this (I guess) Darby had him refused.

Um, John, did you ever read this book called the Bible? Or, as Jesus asked, "Do you not know the Scripture?" The scripture says that God raised Him from the dead (Acts 2:24, 13:30). That's the apostle Peter, and the apostle Paul, if you weren't paying attention.

Or, "He trusts in God; let God save Him now" (Matt 27:43; cf Psa 22:8)

It seemed to me that Darby fell into the same spiritual disease that afflicted Lee, and so many others. He got the One True Vision Affliction, in which scripture could only mean what his Vision said. Everyone else, who couldn't see the Special Light, was "dark" and "twisted" and so forth. Scriptures were either held as proof texts of the Special Teachings, or they were ignored.

Ultimately, the Vision of the Age is a test to see if you are in, or out. If you are in, you get the Special Blessing. If you are out you are either marginalized or expelled.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Ultimately, the Vision of the Age is a test to see if you are in, or out. If you are in, you get the Special Blessing. If you are out you are either marginalized or expelled.

STEM Publishing is an Exclusive site, which will never provide the other side of the story.

Interestingly, Wm. Kelly was the "Ron Kangas" of the Darby world, who edited and compiled all of Darby's work. Kelly was loyal to Darby for decades, yet was excommunicated by the true Darby "Park Street" clan (could be considered the Blendeds of old.) His expulsion was every bit as absurd as Newton's and Muller's.

Here's the short story, just to show the fruit of exclusivism, and how dangerous it is to side with them. As Darby lay on his death bed, old Dr. Cronin, who was the very first "Brethren" even before Darby, happened to break bread with some seeking believers in a small English town (I think named Ryde.) Anyways, Ryde had an "official" assembly, recognized by Brethren headquarters, but were a sorry bunch in disarray, beset with legal wrangling, and not the kind of assembly one might take a friend to.

Even though Dr. Cronin had sided with Darby the exclusives in the aftermath of the Newton-Muller bloodbath, no one who breaks the rules was exempt from punishment. In Cronin's case, he violated the law of one church one city by breaking bread with an unsanctioned assembly. This was officially the unforgivable sin in exclusive circles, an overt attack on "the ground of the one body."

Ironsides in his Historical Sketch p. 85 says this of Cronin,

Finally the patriarchal offender was excommunicated and for months set back with tears streaming down his face as his brethren remembered the Lord, and he, the first of them all was in the place of an immoral man or the blasphemer... Is it any wonder that some critic said of the Brethren that they are "people who are very particular about breaking bread, but very careless about breaking hearts."

The great teacher Wm Kelly protested the excommunication, so he got ousted too! Dying Darby, too feeble to resist, muttered, "It must be the will of the Lord!" Baloney! Many well-known exclusives, including Andrew Miller the historian, along with numerous assemblies, rejected the harsh "discipline" of the self-serving Park Street oligarchy "playing church," resulting in yet another division.

Seeing how pathetic the "true" Darby lineage has become, perhaps Darby was right to declare "It must be the will of the Lord!" Both Nee and Lee claimed that these same Brethren were the present day "fulfillment" of the church in Philadelphia "brotherly love" of Revelations chapter two. Huh?

[UntoHim]

Hey aron, maybe it's just me, but it seems all those stempublishing.com links are broken. Maybe there is a little jot or tittle missing or added? Anyway, could you check into that. Thanks.

-

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Hey aron, maybe it's just me, but it seems all those stempublishing.com links are broken. Maybe there is a little jot or tittle missing or added? Anyway, could you check into that. Thanks.

-

Some of those links read like an article from afaithfulword.com

They were "broken" long before they were broken.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Wm. Kelly was the "Ron Kangas" of the Darby world, who edited and compiled all of Darby's work. Kelly was loyal to Darby for decades, yet was excommunicated by the true Darby "Park Street" clan (could be considered the Blendeds of old.) His expulsion was every bit as absurd as Newton's and Muller's.

Here is something of Kelly's testimony, posted elsewhere on this forum:

Originally Posted by Wm Kelly

As you wish for some personal reminiscences of the late J.N.D., I go back to my first intercourse with him in the summer of 1845 at Plymouth. For though I had been for years in communion before this, it had not been my lot to see him for whom above all others I had conceived, because of his love and testimony to Christ, profound respect and warm affection. I was then living in the Channel Islands, in one of which I began to break bread with three sisters in Christ, before ever looking a "brother" in the face. It was in J. B. Rowe's shop, Whimple Street, that we met; and very cordial and frank was his greeting... But a little matter of a private kind will interest you and your readers, as it gave me (some twenty years or so his junior), a practical lesson. When dining with Mr. Darby, he by the way said, "I should like to tell you how I live. Today I have more than usual on your account. But it is my habit to have a small hot joint on Saturday, cold on Lord's day, cold on Monday, on Tuesday, on Wednesday, and on Thursday. On Friday I am not sorry to have a bit of chop or steak; then the round begins again." I too, like Mr. Darby, had been ascetic as a young Christian, and had been reduced, by general indifference to outward life, so low that the physician prescribed as essential what had been discarded in self-denial. How uncommon to find a mind endowed with the rarest power of generalisation, able to come down like the apostle, and impress on a young disciple, eating, drinking, or whatever is done, to do all unto God's glory!...

By so little Kelly came under Darby's sway, by his eating and drinking? Incredible! I'm all for self-control, but this is ridiculous. "The kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

By so little Kelly came under Darby's sway, by his eating and drinking? Incredible! I'm all for self-control, but this is ridiculous. "The kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit."

Kelly had proved his loyalty to Darby and company from this story in Plymouth (just prior to the "lynching" of Newton in Plymouth, their first division) until Darby's death in 1882 (their second division.) William Kelly's devotion to Darby and the Brethren was above reproach. He was both an outstanding teacher in his own right and Darby's personal compiler.

But in exclusive systems such as the Brethren or the Recovery, past loyalty means nothing. In these power grabbing structures, brothers like Kelly are simply obstacles to one's own power, since he would demand that all things be done "by the book," which btw would be interpreted by Darby's ministry.

Religious zealots, like the Pharisees of old, care little for who you are, or what service you might have done to date for the Lord. Brotherly love and the Bible are merely obstacles on their pathway to glory, not the real glory of God, but the glory of men, in the here and now.

[ByHisGrace]

In the book "All Inclusive Christ", WL says:

"You may be quite clear that Christ is your food, that Christ is your living water, that Christ is your light, and that Christ is your life. But let me ask you, have you ever realized that Christ is the very land on which you are living? Christ is the land. You may feel that day by day you are living on this earth, on this piece of land, but you must realize that this earth is not your real land. Even this earth is nothing but a figure pointing to Christ. Christ is the real land to us."

This sounds a lot like Pantheism to me.. the "All Inclusive Christ", anyways, just a thought.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ByHisGrace

In the book "All Inclusive Christ", WL says:

"You may be quite clear that Christ is your food, that Christ is your living water, that Christ is your light, and that Christ is your life. But let me ask you, have you ever realized that Christ is the very land on which you are living? Christ is the land. You may feel that day by day you are living on this earth, on this piece of land, but you must realize that this earth is not your real land. Even this earth is nothing but a figure pointing to Christ. Christ is the real land to us."

This sounds a lot like Pantheism to me.. the "All Inclusive Christ", anyways, just a thought.

Not sure it is about pantheism. But it is about turning our thoughts from the concrete to the abstract. Everything becomes Christ. Not that there is no theological basis for that kind of saying. But it turns everything into vanilla. And it takes away the experience of the thing that you attribute to Christ, making the attribution less meaningful. If I have no experience of milk and honey, then declaring Christ to be a land flowing with milk and honey is rather hollow. It was a promise in the wilderness, but it was ultimately experienced. It did not simply remain a promise.

If I am only to attribute everything that I do not experience to Christ, then I am an ascetic. I am denying myself any human enjoyment so that I can attain to Christ. Where is that taught? "Deny yourself" was not merely some call to asceticism. It was a call to turn from your former way of living. To find that there is a better way.