Age Turners

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by LC Propaganda News Outlet

http://www.ageturners.com
Indescribable! After months and months of planning, countless hours of prayer and coordination, thousands of miles of travel, and five days of infusion, preparation, saturation, enjoyment, blending, and praising, the Lord gained what He was after: the corporate consecration of 1,300 precious young people! The atmosphere tonight, the last night of the 2015 National College Training, was palpable, electrifying, and unquenchable! And all who were there will have the memory of tonight stamped into their being. Lives have been changed and the Lord has gained what He is after!
http://www.ageturners.com/2015-natio...ning-update-6/

This past week, there was a week-long national college training that took place. I went a West Coast regional one ~10 years ago, but at the time, most everyone in the country went to the West Coast one. At the time there were around 300-400 attendees. This one boasts 1300+ attendees. The subject of this college training: Age Turners. This is what I wanted to discuss, especially considering who this term is applied to, the younger generation of the LC.

Obviously, "Age Turners" is a peculiar sounding term that means nothing outside the LC. At some point, W. Lee spoke about “men who turn the age”, and I assume it was mainly his call for the young people to rise up. What troubles me is that I’m not sure how much any of the blendeds want to step into the background. Didn’t Ron say he wasn’t going to step aside for anyone? So what do they really want, college students going around calling themselves “age turners”? Are they encouraging ambition?

When I look at the LC as a whole, the #1 struggle that I notice is the issue of attempting to remain relevant in 21st century America while staying true to what Lee taught, and upholding the practices that they hold so dear. It’s obviously not an easy endeavor and a path that’s destined for failure eventually. The young people who haven’t fully bought into the system are the ones who are most “vulnerable” to finding the system irrelevant. How do LC leaders remedy this? They flatter them, they make the young people feel special and important.

Just call young people “age turners” and all the sudden you have them walking around thinking they are special and that they play an important role in “God’s move”. Sad to say, at one point in time I would have bought into all this. 10 years later, it turns out I’m not an “age turner”, I’m just a normal person doing normal stuff, and I’m content with that, that’s the way it’s supposed to be. Hopefully others will figure this out too eventually.

[aron]

Like Jason Alexander and his parents shouting at each other on an episode of Seinfeld, the participants of this conference are probably getting worked up over nothing. I say this because once I was there, waving my arms and carrying on. But I found that the emotional commitment and engagement couldn't be sustained.

At its core there was a hole. The so-called Lord's move for the campii was for the Body, which was for the ministry, which also was for the ministry. Everything flowed to the ministry and nothing flowed out except cries for more.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

Like Jason Alexander and his parents shouting at each other on an episode of Seinfeld, the participants of this conference are probably getting worked up over nothing. I say this because once I was there, waving my arms and carrying on. But I found that the emotional commitment and engagement couldn't be sustained.

At its core there was a hole. The so-called Lord's move for the campii was for the Body, which was for the ministry, which also was for the ministry. Everything flowed to the ministry and nothing flowed out except cries for more.

One thing the LC is good at is getting everyone hyped up. They might call it "seeing a vision", "consecration", or various other names, but it all boils down to just being some type of charismatic experience.

I'm sure when the blendeds were young men, they also felt themselves to be "age turners". 50 years later, it turns out they're not, they're just leaders of a little-known sect.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

One thing the LC is good at is getting everyone hyped up. They might call it "seeing a vision", "consecration", or various other names, but it all boils down to just being some type of charismatic experience.

They can get the same hype going to a multi-level marketing event, motivational speaking seminar,

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by aron

Like Jason Alexander and his parents shouting at each other on an episode of Seinfeld, the participants of this conference are probably getting worked up over nothing. I say this because once I was there, waving my arms and carrying on. But I found that the emotional commitment and engagement couldn't be sustained.

At its core there was a hole. The so-called Lord's move for the campii was for the Body, which was for the ministry, which also was for the ministry. Everything flowed to the ministry and nothing flowed out except cries for more.

I am now 68, albeit a young 68 somehow; but when I was super-charged for the church life in the early 70's there was a carry-over to the age-turners generation "movement" in that decade.

Here is a song from that time according to the tune of The Pepsi Generation. It was actually an outstanding tune,and message of inspiration to the young people.

https://www.hymnal.net/en/hymn/ns/223

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Indiana

I am now 68, albeit a young 68 somehow; but when I was super-charged for the church life in the early 70's there was a carry-over to the age-turners generation "movement" in that decade.

Ohio will have to help me, or the Speaker, (as I like to call Speaker's Corner), but we went through this sort of movement over 35 years ago. Here is a song from that time according to the tune of The Pepsi Generation. It was actually an outstanding tune and message, that brought some fruition, but nothing to lay any kind of claim to....

https://www.hymnal.net/en/hymn/ns/223

All young people need to (want to?) feel like their generation is special. Take a listen at every commencement speech. Can't fault any of them for that, can we? Couldn't Peter, James, John and the gang have sung that same song? It's all good if it's all about Jesus and the kids around us. Once someone raises his head (Acts 20.30, 3 John 9 footnote 3) demanding our attention ... in the proverbial words of an astronaut up above ... "Houston, we have a problem."

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Indiana

I am now 68, albeit a young 68 somehow; but when I was super-charged for the church life in the early 70's there was a carry-over to the age-turners generation "movement" in that decade.

Here is a song from that time according to the tune of The Pepsi Generation. It was actually an outstanding tune,and message of inspiration to the young people.

https://www.hymnal.net/en/hymn/ns/223

I really have no idea what the "early days" were like, but from everything I have heard there were a lot of young people who were on fire for the Lord. It might be fair to say at that time there was a lot of zeal without the "institutionalized" environment (as Ohio puts it) that came later on.

What I find interesting is that despite all that was going on during that time period, there is not too much to show for it. Many from that era have long since left. Those who are still around are not necessarily completely content with the LC. The most prominent of the "age turners" from that era just turned out to be the BB's who parrot Lee's ministry.

These days, it seems like the whole goal with the young people is to get them to attend the FTTA. The leaders can still do a good job at getting everyone fired up. The YP want to be "age turners", but the path that leaders steer them towards is an unknown path to them.

I take no issue with all the YP on fire for the Lord. The problem is that those who are zealous enough will inevitably land at the FTTA. What happens next is that they have essentially become pawns who can be used in whatever way leaders want them to. It probably seems fun for a few years until all the sudden reality hits and they realize they need to find a job, support a family and the whole "age turner" mentality has to inevitable take a back seat.

That's where a lot of the issue lies. I'm not saying it's wrong for YP to be zealous, but a lot of it is simply leaders taking advantage of that zeal. A common theme I notice about all the "high" talk that goes on within the LC, is when the question turns to how to be an "age turner" the brothers just say to read the Word, pray, etc., and that is the exact same stuff any other Christian does. So the only difference between an "age turner" and an average Christian is that people assign themselves that title.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I really have no idea what the "early days" were like, but from everything I have heard there were a lot of young people who were on fire for the Lord. It might be fair to say at that time there was a lot of zeal without the "institutionalized" environment (as Ohio puts it) that came later on.

The excitement and zeal of the early days was less manufactured by the LSM handlers, and more the result of the Spirit opening the word of God. The goal was the gospel and the testimony of Jesus. Not to say, looking back, that there were not things that needed correction, but at least the eyes of the young people were still on the Lord.

LSM is all about promoting LSM. They have hijacked whatever blessing of the Lord that once existed. They have substituted their own teachings and traditions for the scripture. They now rule over every member elder and LC. They are convinced that every young person belongs to them. They have usurped the place of the Head. They quench the Spirit and then stir up the good religious flesh of the young people.

They work so hard and now spend so much money on increase, yet have so little to show for it. Had they learned how to treat others over the years, and accept what other Christians deem "acceptable" teachings and practices, I believe there would be something to show for all the labor.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The excitement and zeal of the early days was less manufactured by the LSM handlers, and more the result of the Spirit opening the word of God. The goal was the gospel and the testimony of Jesus. Not to say, looking back, that there were not things that needed correction, but at least the eyes of the young people were still on the Lord.

LSM is all about promoting LSM. They have hijacked whatever blessing of the Lord that once existed. They have substituted their own teachings and traditions for the scripture. They now rule over every member elder and LC. They are convinced that every young person belongs to them. They have usurped the place of the Head. They quench the Spirit and then stir up the good religious flesh of the young people.

You have to remember that the early years of the Local Church Movement in the USA neatly coincided with the Jesus Movement, in which literally thousands of young people "turned on" to Jesus. Some of the other groups that emerged in that time frame, like Calvary Chapel, also experienced explosive growth, and also had meetings filled with the "manifestations of the Holy Spirit", i.e. non-stop excitement of seeing young people give themselves unreservedly for Christ. The enthusiasm of those LC young people was arguably not caused by the "local ground" or some teaching that Lee or Nee brought them. On the contrary, the spirit of renewal which the youth brought in eventually got co-opted by the dogmatizers, control freaks and merchandizers.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The excitement and zeal of the early days was less manufactured by the LSM handlers, and more the result of the Spirit opening the word of God. The goal was the gospel and the testimony of Jesus. Not to say, looking back, that there were not things that needed correction, but at least the eyes of the young people were still on the Lord.

LSM is all about promoting LSM. They have hijacked whatever blessing of the Lord that once existed. They have substituted their own teachings and traditions for the scripture. They now rule over every member elder and LC. They are convinced that every young person belongs to them. They have usurped the place of the Head. They quench the Spirit and then stir up the good religious flesh of the young people.

You have to remember that the early years of the Local Church Movement in the USA neatly coincided with the Jesus Movement, in which literally thousands of young people "turned on" to Jesus. Some groups that emerged in that time frame, like Calvary Chapel, also experienced explosive growth, with meetings also filled with the "manifestations of the Holy Spirit", i.e. non-stop excitement of seeing young people give themselves unreservedly for Christ. The enthusiasm of the LC young people wasn't caused by the "ground" or some teaching that Lee or Nee brought. On the contrary, the spirit of renewal which the youth brought in was eventually co-opted by the dogmatizers, control freaks and merchandizers.

To see how big this movement of young "age turners" was, look at the cover of Time Magazine from June 1971:

http://content.time.com/time/magazin...710621,00.html

Here is some of the article:

Originally Posted by Time Magazine

JESUS CHRIST

ALIAS: THE MESSIAH, THE SON OF GOD, KING OF KINGS, LORD OF LORDS, PRINCE OF PEACE, ETC.

> Notorious leader of an underground liberation movement

>Wanted for the following charges:

—Practicing medicine, winemaking and food distribution without a license.

—Interfering with businessmen in the temple.

—Associating with known criminals, radicals, subversives, prostitutes and street people.

—Claiming to have the authority to make people into God’s children.

APPEARANCE: Typical hippie type—long hair, beard, robe, sandals.

> Hangs around slum areas, few rich friends, often sneaks out into the desert.

BEWARE: This man is extremely dangerous. His insidiously inflammatory message is particularly dangerous to young people who haven’t been taught to ignore him yet. He changes men and claims to set them free.

WARNING: HE IS STILL AT LARGE!

HE is indeed. As the words of this Wanted poster from a Christian underground newspaper demonstrate, Jesus is alive and well and living in the radical spiritual fervor of a growing number of young Americans who have proclaimed an extraordinary religious revolution in his name. Their message: the Bible is true, miracles happen, God really did so love the world that he gave it his only begotten son. In 1966 Beatle John Lennon casually remarked that the Beatles were more popular than Jesus Christ; now the Beatles are shattered, and George Harrison is singing My Sweet Lord. The new young followers of Jesus listen to Harrison, but they turn on only to the words of their Master: “For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”

Christian coffeehouses have opened in many cities, signaling their faith even in their names: The Way Word in Greenwich Village, the Catacombs in Seattle, I Am in Spokane. A strip joint has been converted to a “Christian nightclub” in San Antonio. Communal “Christian houses” are multiplying like loaves and fishes for youngsters hungry for homes, many reaching out to the troubled with round-the-clock telephone hot lines. Bibles abound: whether the cherished, fur-covered King James Version or scruffy, back-pocket paperbacks, they are invariably well-thumbed and often memorized. “It’s like a glacier,” says “Jesus-Rock” Singer Larry Norman, 24. “It’s growing and there’s no stopping it.”

There is an uncommon morning freshness to this movement, a buoyant atmosphere of hope and love along with the usual rebel zeal. Some converts seem to enjoy translating their new faith into everyday life, like those who answer the phone with “Jesus loves you” instead of “hello.” But their love seems more sincere than a slogan, deeper than the fast-fading sentiments of the flower children; what startles the outsider is the extraordinary sense of joy that they are able to communicate…

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Just call young people “age turners” and all the sudden you have them walking around thinking they are special and that they play an important role in “God’s move”.

They have been doing this for decades. If they keep doing it long enough, eventually the Lord will return, the age will "turn," and then they can take credit for it.

[aron]

The whole saga of Witness Lee the “humble bondslave of Jesus Christ” reminds me so much of the parable of the man who couldn’t pay his debts, then demanded that others pay him what they owed. (see Matt 18:21-35). WL based his ministry on the critique of “Christianity” supposedly failing to deliver the goods; then he'd tell his disciples that they'd be the ones who turned the age. And when it didn't pan out, he'd move on, finding other willing sets of ears. The Elden Hall folks fell for it, the “take the ground in the cities on the earth” migratory LCers fell for it, the college-age trainees of my generation fell for it, and now we hear of a new generation, assured that they’ll be the ones who fulfill the divine mandate.

Thankfully for WL the Maoist Communists took over the mainland, giving him an excuse to beat feet out of there. Not sure of his excuse for bailing out of Taiwan or the Philippines, and going to Seattle World’s Fair in 1962; I guess “God was moving to the USA” was his (retroactive) excuse. It’s like every 15 or 20 years, the Wizard of Oz could climb back in his hot-air balloon and fly away to another unsuspecting populace and build another Emerald City. And like Charlie Brown and Lucy, another generation of naifs lines up to kick a football that isn’t there.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

Not sure of his excuse for bailing out of Taiwan or the Philippines, and going to Seattle World’s Fair in 1962; I guess “God was moving to the USA” was his (retroactive) excuse.

Philippines wasn't welcome to Witness Lee at the time, Taipei became too uncomfortable due to having church property sold off to pay off family debt. Thankfully his son Timothy was selling suits at the Seattle World's Fair. Plus he knew Samuel Chang in Los Angeles and Stephen Kaung in New York who were already in United States.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

Thankfully for WL the Maoist Communists took over the mainland, giving him an excuse to beat feet out of there. Not sure of his excuse for bailing out of Taiwan or the Philippines, and going to Seattle World’s Fair in 1962; I guess “God was moving to the USA” was his (retroactive) excuse. It’s like every 15 or 20 years, the Wizard of Oz could climb back in his hot-air balloon and fly away to another unsuspecting populace and build another Emerald City. And like Charlie Brown and Lucy, another generation of naifs lines up to kick a football that isn’t there.

In April 1947, Witness Lee started many days of Special Meetings for the “Renewal of Dedication.” He called on all the believers to have absolute dedication in serving God. According to Zhang Xikang’s autobiography: Reminiscence of Sixty Years, the topics of Lee’s speech were: “Dealing with Mammon and Serving God,” “The Service of the Whole Body,” and “The Occupation of Believers by the World and Mammon.”(17) A year later, Nee used exactly the same topics in his messages at the National Coworkers Meeting.(18) Apparently Nee adopted the topics from Lee with his own elaboration. The enthusiasm for the Lord at SCA heated up. Many confessed their failures and repented with tears. They turned their hearts to the Lord and wrote “Handing-Over notes.” They dedicated themselves to the church together with all their possessions, their career, and their future.

Hsu M.D, Lily M.; Roberts M.A M.T.S, Dana (2013-04-02). My Unforgettable Memories:Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church (Kindle Locations 748-750). Xulon Press. Kindle Edition.

You can see the pattern here: there's the "Dedication" experience, with public declarations, emotions, and tears. There's the pledge to devote oneself to the Cause. And this cause is not God or His Christ but rather to God's True Church, and to the ministry which is fronted by it. I find that last line to be quite telling: "They dedicated themselves to the church together with all their possessions, their career, and their future." At this point God, having been a useful foil thus far, gets set aside as all eyes and hearts are now upon The Church.

The ministry gets a fresh crop of robots, devoid of the ability to reflect, to consider, to think, to reason, or to question. The zealots are now burning for "Christ and His Church", helpfully presented to them by a non-profit religious organization and its conveniently monopolized publishing arm. The new acolytes have found their purpose and mission in life, but how is any of this different from Scientology or the Mormons or any other weird, controlling group? Those groups also take their purpose and meaning and convince you to take it as your own. Everything comes back to the Group, and to those pulling the strings. Amazing that WL & Co made their schtick work through so many exposing turmoils. They polish the mud off and hold it up for a new generation of naifs, all shiny and new.

[Freedom]

In April 1947, Witness Lee started many days of Special Meetings for the “Renewal of Dedication.” He called on all the believers to have absolute dedication in serving God. According to Zhang Xikang’s autobiography: Reminiscence of Sixty Years, the topics of Lee’s speech were: “Dealing with Mammon and Serving God,” “The Service of the Whole Body,” and “The Occupation of Believers by the World and Mammon.”(17) A year later, Nee used exactly the same topics in his messages at the National Coworkers Meeting.(18) Apparently Nee adopted the topics from Lee with his own elaboration. The enthusiasm for the Lord at SCA heated up. Many confessed their failures and repented with tears. They turned their hearts to the Lord and wrote “Handing-Over notes.” They dedicated themselves to the church together with all their possessions, their career, and their future.

Hsu M.D, Lily M.; Roberts M.A M.T.S, Dana (2013-04-02). My Unforgettable Memories:Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church (Kindle Locations 748-750). Xulon Press. Kindle Edition.

Really it is hard to put into words all that has happened this past week and especially in the last two days. The Lord truly moved in a powerful, touching, and strong way. Not only did the students line up to pour out their consecrations in prayer Friday evening after the message, but when they returned to their dorm rooms, students composed long, multi-page consecrations written to the Lord which they turned in before leaving Saturday afternoon. Many consecrated to the Lord their futures, their future marriages and families, their remaining college years, their going to the Full-Time Training, their work and money and time. Praise the Lord! What can we say but thank You and praise You Lord Jesus for Your faithfulness to work in this generation.
http://www.ageturners.com/2015-natio...luding-report/

The parallels are striking between the quote from Lily's book and the quote I posted from the age turners website. Almost 70 years later, they are still having meetings where attendees write out some type of consecration and publicly declare their lives to be consecrated to "Christ and the Church". I'm not out to question anyone's sincerity, but I don't think they realize this same type of thing has been going on long before their time.

To me the whole idea of these public consecrations with emotional declarations is no different than people going up to a stage to stage to get "healed" or "slain in the spirit" as many Pentecostals will do. It really boils down to just being an emotional experience. That's what people want. But in the LC, they have to disguise it as something else. They have to make themselves seem different from other groups who do similar things.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

You can see the pattern here: there's the "Dedication" experience, with public declarations, emotions, and tears. There's the pledge to devote oneself to the Cause. And this cause is not God or His Christ but rather to God's True Church, and to the ministry which is fronted by it. I find that last line to be quite telling: "They dedicated themselves to the church together with all their possessions, their career, and their future." At this point God, having been a useful foil thus far, gets set aside as all eyes and hearts are now upon The Church.

The ministry gets a fresh crop of robots, devoid of the ability to reflect, to consider, to think, to reason, or to question. The zealots are now burning for "Christ and His Church", helpfully presented to them by a non-profit religious organization and its conveniently monopolized publishing arm. The new acolytes have found their purpose and mission in life, but how is any of this different from Scientology or the Mormons or any other weird, controlling group? Those groups also take their purpose and meaning and convince you to take it as your own. Everything comes back to the Group, and to those pulling the strings. Amazing that WL & Co made their schtick work through so many exposing turmoils. They polish the mud off and hold it up for a new generation of naifs, all shiny and new.

During the hey day of the "new way," circa. spring - summer 1987 in Taipei, Andrew Yu, the chief trainer, perhaps sixth in line from the Father, began making public to the LC leaders the "handing over" movement under Nee, proclaiming from the podium, "we have their papers."

Perhaps the only hindrance they then faced was the early whispers of Philip's lust for female volunteers at LSM.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

During the hey day of the "new way," circa. spring - summer 1987 in Taipei, Andrew Yu, the chief trainer, perhaps sixth in line from the Father, began making public to the LC leaders the "handing over" movement under Nee, proclaiming from the podium, "we have their papers."

Perhaps the only hindrance they then faced was the early whispers of Philip's lust for female volunteers at LSM.

I have to say, I've been to a number of LC conferences where some type of public consecration took place, even if it was just declarations made at the end of the last meeting.

I can't say that I've ever filled out a written consecration note, but know that they have video-taped these events in the past. The purpose of doing that was obviously to make everyone feel as if they had just bound themselves to some sort of contract. Maybe it's the LC way to "revive" members who are becoming a little disillusioned. It keeps them in the system for a few more years, until the next time there is a public consecration.

I will readily admit that I was always a bit concerned by these public calls for everyone to consecrate themselves. More than anything else, it always seemed like an exercise in group pressure. I've been in meetings where virtually everyone in the meeting stood up to declare something. Is that really what everyone really wanted to do, or did they not want to be the odd man out?

Speaking for myself, whenever I have done such a thing, it was simply to please those in the meeting. If I didn't stand up, everyone would take notice of that. Outside of what was happening in those meetings, it was a meaningless declaration.

Thankfully for WL the Maoist Communists took over the mainland, giving him an excuse to beat feet out of there. Not sure of his excuse for bailing out of Taiwan or the Philippines, and going to Seattle World’s Fair in 1962; I guess “God was moving to the USA” was his (retroactive) excuse. It’s like every 15 or 20 years, the Wizard of Oz could climb back in his hot-air balloon and fly away to another unsuspecting populace and build another Emerald City. And like Charlie Brown and Lucy, another generation of naifs lines up to kick a football that isn’t there.

HAHAHAHA loved this!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Obviously, "Age Turners" is a peculiar sounding term that means nothing outside the LC. At some point, W. Lee spoke about “men who turn the age”, and I assume it was mainly his call for the young people to rise up. What troubles me is that I’m not sure how much any of the blendeds want to step into the background. Didn’t Ron say he wasn’t going to step aside for anyone? So what do they really want, college students going around calling themselves “age turners”? Are they encouraging ambition?

When I look at the LC as a whole, the #1 struggle that I notice is the issue of attempting to remain relevant in 21st century America while staying true to what Lee taught, and upholding the practices that they hold so dear. It’s obviously not an easy endeavor and a path that’s destined for failure eventually. The young people who haven’t fully bought into the system are the ones who are most “vulnerable” to finding the system irrelevant. How do LC leaders remedy this? They flatter them, they make the young people feel special and important.

“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Matthew 24:36

How can there be age turners, when only the Father knows?

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

The whole saga of Witness Lee the “humble bondslave of Jesus Christ” reminds me so much of the parable of the man who couldn’t pay his debts, then demanded that others pay him what they owed. (see Matt 18:21-35). WL based his ministry on the critique of “Christianity” supposedly failing to deliver the goods; then he'd tell his disciples that they'd be the ones who turned the age. And when it didn't pan out, he'd move on, finding other willing sets of ears. The Elden Hall folks fell for it, the “take the ground in the cities on the earth” migratory LCers fell for it, the college-age trainees of my generation fell for it, and now we hear of a new generation, assured that they’ll be the ones who fulfill the divine mandate.

Thankfully for WL the Maoist Communists took over the mainland, giving him an excuse to beat feet out of there. Not sure of his excuse for bailing out of Taiwan or the Philippines, and going to Seattle World’s Fair in 1962; I guess “God was moving to the USA” was his (retroactive) excuse. It’s like every 15 or 20 years, the Wizard of Oz could climb back in his hot-air balloon and fly away to another unsuspecting populace and build another Emerald City. And like Charlie Brown and Lucy, another generation of naifs lines up to kick a football that isn’t there.

The interesting thing is, when I see all the Facebook posts of those who went to this training, I can totally understand what is going through their minds. I was that way at one point.

Young people want to feel important, so if they are called "small potatoes" like everyone else is, they tune out. The trick is to get them invested enough in the LC so that later on in life when they realize its a big farce, they're already have too much of their lives invested to leave.

Lee had all the attributes of a good con man. He knew what to do to get people to buy into his program. He knew how to get everyone excited and stirred up, and he also knew how to "leave town" when things went awry.

[ABrotherinFaith]

I visited last Sunday's meeting in Chicago where there were about 80 young people from a few different countries. They had just finished the conference and were eager to share what had been "released. " There was a lot of ,"God became man so that man could become God in life and nature but not in the Godhead." And then I learned that Good is not coming back for the Church. He's coming back for the overcomers, a special group. " I'll write more later. I'm on my phone and eating lunch.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

I visited last Sunday's meeting in Chicago where there were about 80 young people from a few different countries. They had just finished the conference and we're eager to share what had been "released. " There was a lot of ,"God became man so that man could become God in life and nature but not in the Godhead." And then I learned that Good is not coming back for the Church. He's coming back for the overcomers, a special group. " I'll write more later. I'm on my phone and eating lunch.

With all the talk about being god-men, God's "remnant", "age turners", etc. it really just makes you wonder, are the YP by any chance being instilled an attitude of superiority? In striking contrast, consider what Paul and Barnabas did when people tried to uplift/deify them:

Acts 14:11-15
11 Now when the people saw what Paul had done, they raised their voices, saying in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have come down to us in the likeness of men!” 12 And Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul, Hermes, because he was the chief speaker. 13 Then the priest of Zeus, whose temple was in front of their city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates, intending to sacrifice with the multitudes. 14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard this, they tore their clothes and ran in among the multitude, crying out 15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by Freedom

With all the talk about being god-men, God's "remnant", "age turners", etc. it really just makes you wonder, are the YP by any chance being instilled an attitude of superiority?

This is exactly the problem as I see it. Overcomers are a special group of believers (not all believers will be overcomers) and the LC is where they will come from because they have something higher than the rest of degraded Christianity. This seemed to me to be the attitude of many of the younger ones who stood up to speak. A few trips to other groups would quickly dispel that superiority if people 1. visited other Christians and 2. Saw past culture/practice.
I haven't been paying attention for that long, certainly not as long as some of you here, but I have seen a growing sense of superiority and us vs them (degraded Christianity) mentality.
There was truly the sense that believers can do something to bring the Lord back (before His plan???).

[Freedom]

The whole notion behind this concept of "age turners" seems to be that a group of young people can do something specific to bring the Lord back on their own terms. I don't find that concept contained in the Bible at all, rather it says that no one knows the day or hour (Matt 24:36). At most the Bible talks about "looking for and hastening" the Lord's coming (2 Pet 3:12).

The notion that those in the LC can deliberately "turn" an age is quite prideful. At best, they might be able to do something to hasten the Lord's coming (if the LC wasn't so off track), but they don't get to decide when it will be or even what generation will see the Lord return.

Maybe the analogy of the Lord's coming being like a thief in the night applies not just to those who aren't watching at all, but also to those who think they have it all figured out. Just sayin'.

[TLFisher]

Here's a link:

http://www.ageturners.com/audio-for-...ds-ageturners/

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

The whole notion behind this concept of "age turners" seems to be that a group of young people can do something specific to bring the Lord back on their own terms. I don't find that concept contained in the Bible at all, rather it says that no one knows the day or hour (Matt 24:36). At most the Bible talks about "looking for and hastening" the Lord's coming (2 Pet 3:12).

The notion that those in the LC can deliberately "turn" an age is quite prideful. At best, they might be able to do something to hasten the Lord's coming (if the LC wasn't so off track), but they don't get to decide when it will be or even what generation will see the Lord return.

Maybe the analogy of the Lord's coming being like a thief in the night applies not just to those who aren't watching at all, but also to those who think they have it all figured out. Just sayin'.

“Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent. For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps. Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep. But at midnight there was a shout, ‘Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. The foolish said to the prudent, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ But the prudent answered, ‘No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.’ And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut. Later the other virgins also came, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open up for us.’ But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’ Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour. Matthew 25:1-13

It's mighty ambitious to think of turning the age. Jesus' word in the Gospel of Matthew is quote transparent. I believe the focus should be not on being ageturners, but being ready as the warning in verse 13 goes:

Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.

[theLCfurry]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

This is exactly the problem as I see it. Overcomers are a special group of believers (not all believers will be overcomers) and the LC is where they will come from because they have something higher than the rest of degraded Christianity. This seemed to me to be the attitude of many of the younger ones who stood up to speak. A few trips to other groups would quickly dispel that superiority if people 1. visited other Christians and 2. Saw past culture/practice.
I haven't been paying attention for that long, certainly not as long as some of you here, but I have seen a growing sense of superiority and us vs them (degraded Christianity) mentality.
There was truly the sense that believers can do something to bring the Lord back (before His plan???).

Yep. I guess this is what happened to me to be honest within the last year. I was dispelled by number 2 when I discovered the controversies and malpractices of the LC via this forum in 2018 and then again a year later

Looks like a 180° turn happened within the last year or so since this exact date last year. One year ago I was ok with the LC. Now, I don't want to be a part of it in any way shape or form

Thanks for being supportive guys on my journey within the last year since I joined by the way

[Ohio]

You're welcome!

I suppose our real goal here is to help those, hurting from the LC experience, still find the love and grace of God in their lives. It's a tall order since it's often difficult to understand why God would allow such a nasty thing to happen to us.

It helps me to find the exact same struggles in the Gospels. How could God save Israel, give them His commandments, and then allow rotten Jewish leaders to damage His own people? Eventually I learned that rotten leaders don't make God rotten. Jesus too was hurt by these rotten leaders, and He rose from the dead in order to help us.

[Intothewind]

Freedom you speak with very blunt truth.

Any such concerns voiced would be rebuttaled by encouragement to read the ministry or really really have a genuine talk with God...

I remember leaving my consecrations very open ended avoiding words like tlr. I also always wondered how this could be it. And so I've wondered and wandered my way into a beautiful, confusing, and yet clear world that the lc ignores....that is, the real one.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Intothewind

I remember leaving my consecrations very open ended avoiding words like tlr. I also always wondered how this could be it. And so I've wondered and wandered my way into a beautiful, confusing, and yet clear world that the lc ignores....that is, the real one.

If you grew up in the LC you'd choose this way of consecrating yourself to the ministry and the church because of pressure: your parents did it, and now expected you to follow suit, and your peers mostly are doing so, and caving in to their parents. If you come in from outside the LC, you consecrate yourself, your house, family, job, future, money, thoughts, time, focus, and affection, because you're seeking Jesus Christ and this seeking has become co-opted by a religious group seeking converts. So your motive became fused with their motive, and consecration (yielding, submission, cooperation) ensued.

The growing child will attempt to cooperate with its parents because that's the reward structure: obedience results in food, shelter, safety, and affection. The outsider coming into a group actually finds similar dynamics: going along with the group leads to rewards, with both psychological "warm fuzzies" and practical things like housing, jobs and potential mates. So that's a lot to go against and I commend you. No, really.

Here's a proposition: if God is real, then God will reveal Him/Her/Itself to you on terms and conditions that you can understand and go along with. Just like parents teaching a child to eat cereal in a bowl of milk, on a table, with a spoon; eventually, everyone involved gets it. Likewise, the All-Powerful Diety of the Universe should be capable of getting your attention, no? Just tell the Universe and all it contains (including its hypothetical God), "Hey, I'm here."

And if there isn't a God, or if God isn't interested in you, then you didn't waste your valuable time and resources, right? You simply did the best you could with what was available. Good enough.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

If you grew up in the LC you'd choose this way of consecrating yourself to the ministry and the church because of pressure: your parents did it, and now expected you to follow suit, and your peers mostly are doing so, and caving in to their parents. If you come in from outside the LC, you consecrate yourself, your house, family, job, future, money, thoughts, time, focus, and affection, because you're seeking Jesus Christ and this seeking has become co-opted by a religious group seeking converts. So your motive became fused with their motive, and consecration (yielding, submission, cooperation) ensued.

On the topic of consecration, the phrase I commonly heard was "Christ and the church". Of course what is implied is Christ and churches affiliated with LSM. If you're open to churches not affiliated with LSM, you're not consecrated to "Christ and the church".

[aron]

Originally Posted by Terry

On the topic of consecration, the phrase I commonly heard was "Christ and the church".

Yes, I deliberately used the phrase "consecrating yourself to the ministry and the church", and didn't mention God. Why? Because, as they'd say, how can you serve God unless in the church? And how can you serve in the church if you aren't lined up with the ministry of the age? So by little and little God has been pushed aside and you serve the ministry.

I,d reply, How can you love God if you don't love your neighbor? If you have no love for others, to serve others, with no thought of return, all your labors and consecrations are vain. Yes you're working hard and yes you're building something, but building what?

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

I,d reply, How can you love God if you don't love your neighbor? If you have no love for others, to serve others, with no thought of return, all your labors and consecrations are vain. Yes you're working hard and yes you're building something, but building what?

They're building the tower of Babel. They are probably saying to themselves "Look at us, we're turning the age! We've reached the highest peak. We're becoming God!"

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

I,d reply, How can you love God if you don't love your neighbor? If you have no love for others, to serve others, with no thought of return, all your labors and consecrations are vain. Yes you're working hard and yes you're building something, but building what?

If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 1 Corinthians 13:1-2

The lacking is very exposing. From the blendeds learning full-time trainees door knocking on John Ingalls' residence to the Church in Seattle elders learning of Steve Isitt meeting with the Church in Spokane...the negative reaction is indicative of the lack of love.
Freedom responded to Aron's question with building babel. I don't know but love isn't part of the Local Church culture other than conditionally loving those who love them. Instead of loving unconditionally, there's a negative paranoia of those suspected of being "opposers".