Holidays

[Freedom]

Since we are nearing the holiday season, I wanted to hear what everyone has to say in regards to the LC and holidays. I will start off by saying that I don't agree with the LC position on holidays. Even though I am in the LC still, I do not attend their trainings, rather I spend the time with family.

For me, not celebrating holidays was one of the most peculiar aspects of growing up in the LC. I think what was the most traumatic for me was dealing with the inevitable ridicule at public school. It is not an easy thing for a kid to have to explain why they don't celebrate holidays. I had to come up with ways rationalize a choice that wasn't mine to begin with.

In the modern LC, I don't see as much legality about not celebrating holidays, in terms of trying to make someone feel bad about it, but it is still frowned upon. They schedule trainings/conferences during all of the major holidays, so nowadays they can technically avoid the subject all together by simply getting everyone to attend their trainings. It has the side effect of keeping anyone from celebrating holidays.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Since we are nearing the holiday season, I wanted to hear what everyone has to say in regards to the LC and holidays. I will start off by saying that I don't agree with the LC position on holidays. Even though I am in the LC still, I do not attend their trainings, rather I spend the time with family.

For me, not celebrating holidays was one of the most peculiar aspects of growing up in the LC. I think what was the most traumatic for me was dealing with the inevitable ridicule at public school. It is not an easy thing for a kid to have to explain why they don't celebrate holidays. I had to come up with ways rationalize a choice that wasn't mine to begin with.

In the modern LC, I don't see as much legality about not celebrating holidays, in terms of trying to make someone feel bad about it, but it is still frowned upon. They schedule trainings/conferences during all of the major holidays, so nowadays they can technically avoid the subject all together by simply getting everyone to attend their trainings. It has the side effect of keeping anyone from celebrating holidays.

Growing up in the LC, the only holiday my family celebrated was Thanksgiving and Christmas. Once I reached Junior High, my Thanksgivings were spent with the Young People's Conferences.
Nearly each Christmas meant the 3-4 hour drive to Henderson, NV where we spent the Winter break with my grandmother and my mom's side of the family.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Growing up in the LC, the only holiday my family celebrated was Thanksgiving and Christmas. Once I reached Junior High, my Thanksgivings were spent with the Young People's Conferences.
Nearly each Christmas meant the 3-4 hour drive to Henderson, NV where we spent the Winter break with my grandmother and my mom's side of the family.

The only holiday that we could officially celebrate in the church was Chinese New Year. So I would invite all my Chinese friends and family (which would be none) and attend the Chinese gospel dinner and eat those yummy moon pies.

[OBW]

The whole holiday thing in the LRC is a mockery of loving God and loving others. It is such an intentional wedge between families.

I realize that Jesus did make that statement about there being division in families over the kingdom. But that was one statement and it had a context. But the issue was over Jesus and the kingdom, not the controlling actions of a "minister" to force his followers to choose at every normal opportunity.

I find it interesting that Lee would eventually make overt the celebration of an indigenous Chinese holiday while retaining the overt disdain for every holiday that his culture would see as Western. Sort of underscores the real core of the teachings. They had to be different and they had to be understood as "revealed" through China.

As for my experience, we typically ended out getting away to my wife's family on Christmas evening. Everyone lived in the area, so it was doable. Even when they had trainings in Irving and we had hospitality, we would leave a key with one of the guests and go to the Christmas event.

And it was so liberating to stop having to make it such a short event when we left in 87. No more sneaking around.

BTW. When we got married, it turned out that our choice of wedding days was still inside of the video training for one of the Dallas suburbs and they stated that anyone who skipped the meeting to go to it would be kicked-out of the training. Some still did, and I think they backed-down. But I don't recall for sure.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

BTW. When we got married, it turned out that our choice of wedding days was still inside of the video training for one of the Dallas suburbs and they stated that anyone who skipped the meeting to go to it would be kicked-out of the training. Some still did, and I think they backed-down. But I don't recall for sure.

This brings up bad memories of my own.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This brings up bad memories of my own.

Based on the NT, Jesus would probably have attended your wedding and turned water into wine, if necessary. It should have been a time of celebration for everyone. I don't find the scriptures which would have Jesus saying, okay everyone, listen up, if you go to that wedding, you're toast, because I am giving some important training that I want you to attend. He probably would have used your wedding as a parable for His training in real life issues.

I am surprised they are loosening the reins on holidays. I guess people are just not calling "Oh Lord Jesus" enough, or pray-reading enough or shouting out loud enough in meetings, reading or watching enough Life-Studies or marching through the streets of their cities enough. If they were, why would they even care about getting together with families for holidays? They are just falling short of what the LC is all about.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Freedom

In the modern LC, I don't see as much legality about not celebrating holidays, in terms of trying to make someone feel bad about it, but it is still frowned upon. They schedule trainings/conferences during all of the major holidays, so nowadays they can technically avoid the subject all together by simply getting everyone to attend their trainings. It has the side effect of keeping anyone from celebrating holidays.

From my observation Freedom is correct - there is quite a bit more leniency in the LC when it comes to holidays. I'm sure there are some exceptions here or there. When I entered the Movement back in the mid-70s (Orange County CA) it was strictly forbidden to miss any training meeting to attend a holiday family get-together. Of course the trainings always took place during the holidays so it pretty much kept us away from our families at that time of year anyway. Some exceptions were made for "new ones", but the peer pressure to attend every meeting was enormous.

I have noticed that things have loosened quite a bit over the past 10-15 years. I'm sure that all the FTT attendees are still under strict instructions to never miss a meeting, however the great majority of them have parents in the Local Church, so there's no celebration of holidays anyway.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Since we are nearing the holiday season, I wanted to hear what everyone has to say in regards to the LC and holidays. I will start off by saying that I don't agree with the LC position on holidays. Even though I am in the LC still, I do not attend their trainings, rather I spend the time with family.

For me, not celebrating holidays was one of the most peculiar aspects of growing up in the LC. I think what was the most traumatic for me was dealing with the inevitable ridicule at public school. It is not an easy thing for a kid to have to explain why they don't celebrate holidays. I had to come up with ways rationalize a choice that wasn't mine to begin with.

In the modern LC, I don't see as much legality about not celebrating holidays, in terms of trying to make someone feel bad about it, but it is still frowned upon. They schedule trainings/conferences during all of the major holidays, so nowadays they can technically avoid the subject all together by simply getting everyone to attend their trainings. It has the side effect of keeping anyone from celebrating holidays.

Here's what I think:

Romans 14
5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who celebrates Christmas, observes it to the Lord;[a] and he who does not celebrate Christmas, to the Lord he does not celebrate Christmas.
(My translation.)

Witness Lee, again, overstepped his boundaries. It used to be that "we don't have any rules or regulations". I actually believed that in the face of all the evidence to the contrary.

Nell

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Nell

Here's what I think:

Romans 14
6 He who celebrates Christmas, observes it to the Lord;[a] and he who does not celebrate Christmas, to the Lord he does not celebrate Christmas.
(My translation.)

Nell

Will you becoming out with the NT version of "Nell's translation"? I would be looking forward to it. I think you are on to something.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Dave

Will you becoming out with the NT version of "Nell's translation"? I would be looking forward to it. I think you are on to something.

So far the "NT" just comes out a verse at a time. Maybe I should give it some thought.

Nell

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Since we are nearing the holiday season, I wanted to hear what everyone has to say in regards to the LC and holidays. I will start off by saying that I don't agree with the LC position on holidays. Even though I am in the LC still, I do not attend their trainings, rather I spend the time with family.

For me, not celebrating holidays was one of the most peculiar aspects of growing up in the LC. I think what was the most traumatic for me was dealing with the inevitable ridicule at public school. It is not an easy thing for a kid to have to explain why they don't celebrate holidays. I had to come up with ways rationalize a choice that wasn't mine to begin with.

In the modern LC, I don't see as much legality about not celebrating holidays, in terms of trying to make someone feel bad about it, but it is still frowned upon. They schedule trainings/conferences during all of the major holidays, so nowadays they can technically avoid the subject all together by simply getting everyone to attend their trainings. It has the side effect of keeping anyone from celebrating holidays.

By scheduling the training to eclipse the major holidays, the leaders make participating in the training a litmus test of your dedication to Lee's ministry. I did not grow up in Witness Lee's Local Church so I don't know what that is like. Giving up the holidays for approximately a decade while I was in Lee's church had the effect of killing my psychological attachment to them. They still have little meaning for me 28 years after leaving. At the most, they are occasions for getting together with the family and giving gifts. Looking at it that way is possibly better than being compulsively caught up in holiday fever. Or, so it seems to me.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by zeek

By scheduling the training to eclipse the major holidays, the leaders make participating in the training a litmus test of your dedication to Lee's ministry. I did not grow up in Witness Lee's Local Church so I don't know what that is like. Giving up the holidays for approximately a decade while I was in Lee's church had the effect of killing my psychological attachment to them. They still have little meaning for me 28 years after leaving. At the most, they are occasions for getting together with the family and giving gifts. Looking at it that way is possibly better than being compulsively caught up in holiday fever. Or, so it seems to me.

I do feel that way also because I grew up not celebrating Christmas that I don't have the same attachment to it as many, especially the materialistic aspect of it. I never really got to the point where I said "enough is enough, time to start celebrating holidays", rather I wanted to undo the trail of destruction and hurt behind me due to this practice of the LC separating members from their families during the holidays.

I quietly stopped attending the trainings and instead I have attended family gatherings on holidays for several years now. I did get some flak from someone once because I chose to attend a Christmas gathering instead of the training, and I took the opportunity to share how I felt about the issue. I pointed out that WL's teaching regarding Christmas has only resulted in strife and hard feelings between family members. It is quite a statement to forsake a family gathering to attend a training.

The bottom line is that WL's teaching regarding holidays have serious implications. I like the verses from Romans 14 that were posted. Where is the freedom in the LC for individuals to make their own decisions without having to be "secretive" about their decisions?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I do feel that way also because I grew up not celebrating Christmas that I don't have the same attachment to it as many, especially the materialistic aspect of it. I never really got to the point where I said "enough is enough, time to start celebrating holidays", rather I wanted to undo the trail of destruction and hurt behind me due to this practice of the LC separating members from their families during the holidays.

I quietly stopped attending the trainings and instead I have attended family gatherings on holidays for several years now. I did get some flak from someone once because I chose to attend a Christmas gathering instead of the training, and I took the opportunity to share how I felt about the issue. I pointed out that WL's teaching regarding Christmas has only resulted in strife and hard feelings between family members. It is quite a statement to forsake a family gathering to attend a training.

The bottom line is that WL's teaching regarding holidays have serious implications. I like the verses from Romans 14 that were posted. Where is the freedom in the LC for individuals to make their own decisions without having to be "secretive" about their decisions?

Here's another passage where Lee lays out the pagan origins of Christmas:

On the one hand, the Catholic Church teaches that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. On the other hand, they teach the worship of Mary, the “holy mother.” This is a great heresy added into the truth concerning Christ. Today’s Christmas is another example of leaven added by Catholicism to the fine flour of the teaching concerning Christ. In ancient times December 25 was the day on which the Romans worshipped their sun god. Later, after many Romans became false Christians under the seducing of Constantine the Great, they still wanted to continue their remembrance of the sun god. However, under the influence of Constantine, they were forced to worship Christ. Therefore, they made December 25 a day for the celebration of Christ’s birth. This is the source of Christmas. Christ is true; Christmas is false. Christ is the truth; Christmas is a heresy and a mixture. Over the centuries some books have been written, including The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop, to expose the heresies of Roman Catholicism. (The God-Men, Chapter 3, Section 3)

So, I think I appreciate the position you're in. It's a line you have to walk by yourself. In my experience, it's "not a small thing" as Mr. Lee used to say, because whatever way you go, it effects other family members especially the children. But, if the holiday leads your children into heresy and blaspheme as Lee claims, I suppose that would be a serious transgression with consequences. So, I will talk only about my experience, and note that, at the moment, I am unaware of dire consequences that I personally or my loved ones have suffered from exchanging Christmas gifts. Giving gifts to people that you love can be a good thing. And one can remember the birth of the savior even if is on an ancient Roman pagan holiday as even Lee admitted in the passage you quoted below. Like a lot of issues, if you look at what Lee said over time, it seems he was more ambivalent about issues than he let on.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by zeek

I am unaware of dire consequences that I personally or my loved ones have suffered from exchanging Christmas gifts. Giving gifts to people that you love can be a good thing. And one can remember the birth of the savior even if is on an ancient Roman pagan holiday as even Lee admitted in the passage you quoted below. Like a lot of issues, if you look at what Lee said over time, it seems he was more ambivalent about issues than he let on.

I have grown to appreciate giving gifts to others. For me, there is something that helps me be at peace with myself by spending this time of the year with family and to have a heart of giving. More importantly, Christmas is a time of the year when people actually talk about Jesus.

I think that Lee really dug himself into the a hole with what he said. Once he said anything, it was set in stone, even if he said something later to contradict himself. I think that most of what he said was colored to support whatever he was trying to push at that particular point in time. When he was doing the LS of Revelation, the theme was the LC being the antithesis of Babylon. When he was doing his "new way" it was all about his supposedly infallible methods to take care of new believers. (Even though he had the tendency to blast other Christians/new believers for their "pagan" practices, among other things.).

A while back I listened to a recording of James Barber where he calls Christmas "Paga-mas" (a conjunction of pagan and Christmas). I can only imagine the hard-lined attitude about holidays back in the day. Once Lee got everyone associating holiday with being Pagan, that was it. Holidays were not to be celebrated, period. Has the attitude changed? Maybe a little bit. I do think the attitude has been relaxed, however, it seems the real purpose is that some leading brothers realize being too strict about holidays is a deal breaker for many of those new to the LC (who would have known? ). But then again Lee states that "Many dear ones have seen the Lord’s recovery, but due to the matter of Christmas, they sold their birthright". So I guess LC leadership must choose to contradicting Lee in order to do a better job at not scaring people away.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Here's another passage where Lee lays out the pagan origins of Christmas:

So, I think I appreciate the position you're in. It's a line you have to walk by yourself. In my experience, it's "not a small thing" as Mr. Lee used to say, because whatever way you go, it effects other family members especially the children. But, the holiday leads your children into heresy and blaspheme as Lee claims, I suppose that would be a serious transgression with consequences. So, I will talk only about my experience, and note that, at the moment, I am unaware of dire consequences that I personally or my loved ones have suffered from exchanging Christmas gifts. Giving gifts to people that you love can be a good thing. And one can remember the birth of the savior even if is on an ancient Roman pagan holiday as even Lee admitted in the passage you quoted below. Like a lot of issues, if you look at what Lee said over time, it seems he was more ambivalent about issues than he let on.

It was perfectly fine in Lee's system to use the Chinese New Year to preach the gospel to the Chinese, but totally wrong to use Christmas to preach the gospel to your family.