The God who died

[aron]

The God who died, part A

Originally Posted by aron

I would like to offer a couple of examples.

Second example: the Centurion's slave in Luke 7. The centurion's word says, "For I also am a man under authority, and I say to my servant, "Go", and he goes, and to one "come" and he comes, and to another "Do this", and he does it." Jesus marveled and said that there was no such faith in all of Israel. But the question that is begged by the centurion's word is simply ignored. Jesus clearly is also a man under authority, who came to do the Father's will. But who are the servant's of Jesus, that He merely needs to give the word to, and the Centurion's slave will be healed? Is the Holy Spirit the servant of Jesus? Or is it angels? Or some combination?

Look at Psalm 147. "Jehovah sends His command to the earth/His word runs swiftly". The Luke narrative said that "in that same hour the centurion's slave was healed", that Jesus said it was to be done. So the centurion indeed understood what was going on. Jesus just spoke the word and the slave was healed at that very hour. Indeed the word does run swiftly. But what did the centurion understand, that Jesus marveled? We don't ask, because it might upset our dogma. At least that is my impression. The centurion's explanation, that Jesus marveled at, is simply excised from the discussion. If Jesus has invisible servants who go and come at His word and do what He commands, we don't want to think about it because our job as Protestants is to ignore the angels. Or, how can we say the Holy Spirit is "under" Jesus? The centurion said, "I also have servants under me"????

So we ignore it. Not neat and tidy like our theology. We would rather be comfortable.

I've gotten sick of hijacking Bearbear's thread on "supernatural worldview and the power of the Holy Spirit", so I'll continue here. I want to write about the God who died, and what it looked and felt like.

But first I wanted to show the "supernatural worldview" by way of contrast. Faithful readers will notice that I've made a lot of hay on John 1:51. "You will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man." At one point I got interested in seeing heaven open, and so I began to pay attention to these things. Jesus prayed to the Father, "Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven". What is it like "in heaven". Jesus said, "In the resurrection they will neither marry nor be given in marriage, but will be like angels in heaven." What is it like in heaven?

So John 1:51 became, to me, is an invitation by Jesus Christ Himself to see the heavens opened, and to see the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man. If WL wants to turn that into "the Holy Spirit" from Genesis 28 (the oil upon the rock), or "the church life" from the same passage (Jacob said that Bethel was the house of God), or "the humanity of Jesus" (i.e. the Son of Man as the ladder on the earth and touching heaven) that is fine. But to me the question remained, even begging to be asked: what do you see when heaven is opened?

As I said, the Roman Centurion got a good supernatural worldview when he talked about being under authorit, and having servants under him, and telling them "Come" and "Go" and "do this" and they would come, and go, and do this, as he channeled his authority Caesar. Surely Jesus was doing the same thing. A lot to see there, if you are interested.

Now on to part B

[aron]

The God who died, part B.

Now that I have gotten your attention with a question about what the opened heaven reveals, I want to look at the God who died.

Witness Lee asked the elders of the Shanghai Christian Assembly, "How did you feel when you evicted Watchman Nee from fellowship?" I think he wanted to expose them, as disconnected from God, but to me he actually exposed the system that he and Nee were enslaved to. They created a God, who died there when the Shanghai elders found out what Nee was apparently doing (I say apparently because I don't know for sure. But they had enough information to strongly suspect).

The God of the church in Shanghai was the Little Flock organization, with Nee firmly at its head, as the "acting God"... Eventually this collapsed when Nee apparently was mortal, even venal, like the rest of fallen humanity. This is the view of earth. We may dress it up in scriptures, arrange it with our logic, argue convincingly and even emotionally, even having convinced ourselves, we may insist that it bears no traces of the world, or the fall, or the flesh, or the grasping human soul. But eventually our God will be revealed for what it is, an illusion. And then WL asked them, "How did you feel"? All you had to guide you was your subjective response. Not scriptures, not your conscience. Just your fallen, thrill-seeking self. You wanted to be part of God's best. But you were part of an illusion. How did you feel when you found out?

For me, I didn't feel good. I gave up on God. I got discouraged. But eventually I went back to the Bible, and eventually Jesus told me that I would see the heavens opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man. I got curious (shame on me, right -- like Moses and the burning bush, I turned aside to see this marvelous sight) and began seeking. I believe today that the God who failed is anything we construct with our human will. Like Peter, we say "It is good for us to build three booths here: one for Jesus, one for Moses, and one for Elijah". We see God but we want to come alongside and do something.

I think the Shanghai Christian Assembly was the result of some kind of Asian-flavored Protestant spin off (the Brethren, the Keswick Convention, some 19th century European revivalism) which was itself a reaction to Catholic idiocy (even Catholics admitted that the medieval RCC was pretty weird [but "it's the Church", as LRC faithful are wont to repeat] ), which was a reaction to the orthodoxy of the late first millenia, etc... a long chain of fallen, well-meaning people reacting to the failures of the fallen, well-meaning (mostly) people around them. Sure, God was there, but eventually we build illusory Gods. And when our Gods died, someone like Witness Lee might come alongside and ask, "How did you feel, when your God died?"

By contrast, I would argue that the supernatural view, the kingdom of heaven, continues to call.. because it is real. The Bible reveals Jesus Christ, who reveals the Father, who clearly reveals the sent Spirit. If we would wait, and watch, and pray, the text would begin to stir, and our hearts would open, and a fire would fall.

I was there once. The Local Church life was indeed my God. Eventually what I saw, and felt, convinced me that my God was illusory.

[awareness]

What about the God who died?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by awareness

What about the God who died?

I don't think he was talking about the crucifixion of Christ. He was talking about the dethroning of the crown prince of the Local Church (or the Shanghai Christian Assembly as it was at the time). Their god was executed when he ceased to be divine and became mortal, venal. When he had weaknesses like all men and gave in to them.

So when the LRC died to us, was that our god? What happened to us?

I know that in my case it died slowly. There were problems so we left. But there was some thought that we could go back again. (not much) I dealt with the demise of one little idol after another. But still found myself clinging to a lot of the theology (even if not the ground). Then I saw enough to begin to peel it away. My experience was not like everyone else's. It was slow. There were times that it was painful, although I mainly reacted with anger toward it rather than retreating to it.

Is it over? Not entirely, but enough so that I think that I welcome each discovery of its existence and death to me.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

So when the LRC died to us, was that our god? What happened to us?

I know that in my case it died slowly. ..My experience was not like everyone else's. It was slow. There were times that it was painful, although I mainly reacted with anger toward it rather than retreating to it.

A) My premise here is that we come into God's move, dragging our own agendas, motives, feelings, desires, and opinions. In the case of the Nee/Lee religious organization-building project, Lee ended up asking the Shanghai elders how it felt when they disfellowshipped Nee. Lee was appealing to their subjective experience, over the plain words of scripture. Paul had written, "Remove the evil man from your midst"; by contrast Lee said, "How does it feel, when you remove the evil man from your midst?" It was the kingdom of subjective experience. He thought he was exposing them but he was exposing the whole system.

Likewise Lee could later ask Max R. about his feelings, in discovering Philip Lee's behavior in LSM's headquarters office, and also ask Sal Benoit about how it felt to the saints in Boston that they'd lost thier "investment" in Timothy Lee's company, Daystar. Your feelings exposed your emotional investment in Lee's organization, and now your investment just died; how does that make you feel?

B) My second point is that our behavior often follows the failure of others'. In so doing, we correctly identify the splinter in someone else's eye, but miss the beam in ours: Nee could see the problems in Protestant Christian China (and elsewhere) but couldn't see the problems inherent in his response. Supposedly his Little Flock was pure, it represented the "normal" church on the earth today. That was why I referenced historical moves like the Protestant Reformation -- Luther could see the RCC problems but not his own; RCC leaders in 1054 could see failures in the Orthodox position; Lee critiqued "lifeless Protestantism" but his LRC movement was supposedly living and vital. Etc, etc. We can always point the finger somewhere else, and mask (ignore) our own subjective response.

For example, Nee didn't see the idea of absolute obedience while he was in the Protestant denominations; there, he was free to leave and set up his own, improved system. But once he got his Little Flock up and running, suddenly nobody else was free to do likewise. Suddenly Nee discovered "God's deputy authority," and doing anything independently or separately would be "rebellion." Nee, like Lee, exhibited a 'do as I say, not as I do' pattern. They could see the faults in others' behaviour, not their own.

And this applies to us all. My own writings here are just as suspect. I may see the situation with Nee and Lee, correctly (to some extent) identify its shortcoming, and then proceed to stuff my analyses with my own failures, wants, needs, prejudices, arrogance, and ignorance. In so doing, I build a God who dies. "Lord, it is good for us all to be here. I got an idea: let's build three huts. One for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah." In fairness, Lee did note this, but he erroneously supposed that he as MOTA was free from this pattern. Paul had never made a mistake, as MOTA, nor did Nee, nor did he.

Subjectivism drives the construction of our supposedly objective reality.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

I don't think he was talking about the crucifixion of Christ. He was talking about the dethroning of the crown prince of the Local Church (or the Shanghai Christian Assembly as it was at the time). Their god was executed when he ceased to be divine and became mortal, venal. When he had weaknesses like all men and gave in to them.

So when the LRC died to us, was that our god?

Wow, that meaning of the thread was completely lost on me. Went right over my head.

But you are right. My gods have died along the way. And thank God for that. We should kill our own designer gods, human or otherwise.

And I agree the journey of all my gods dying thru the yrs has been painful.

For example, after decades, even, when I read Lily Hsu's book it hurt to find out how human Watchman Nee was. And I'd long ago forgot about Nee. But that god lived on in me.

Our beliefs, spiritual, and Biblical convictions, became precious to us. And to the degree we've been invested in them, like an all in life commitment, the more and deeper it hurts when the rug is pulled out from under them.

Over the years so many rugs have been pulled out from my understandings and convictions that I'm now gun shy about myself and my judgments. I've been wrong way toooooo many times to even trust myself.

As a result I've lost the certitude I once held in the local church. I now can only trust in God. Cuz I'm hopeless. And it hurts to admit it.

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

Wow, that meaning of the thread was completely lost on me. Went right over my head...

Our beliefs, spiritual, and Biblical convictions, became precious to us. And to the degree we've been invested in them, like an all in life commitment, the more and deeper it hurts when the rug is pulled out from under them...

"Your word, o Lord, is eternal. It stands firm in the heavens."

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

What about the God who died?

See below.

Originally Posted by aron

Witness Lee asked the elders of the Shanghai Christian Assembly, "How did you feel when you evicted Watchman Nee from fellowship?" They'd created a God, who died there when the Shanghai elders found out what Nee was apparently doing ...

The God of the church in Shanghai was the organization, with Nee firmly at its head, as the "acting God"... Eventually this collapsed [died] when Nee apparently was mortal, even venal, like the rest of fallen humanity.

I'm surprised that there are those who didn't get in on churching in spirit on the local ground. And what's worse you probably didn't get in on the Budweiser song. I think it was in the same time frame. I sort of liked them both.

Something far worse, around 30 years ago WL unmercifully harangued JI in a meeting blaming John for missing the proper end time setting of his song. And unrelated to this I saw a video in Irving once where WL miserably thrashed his servants for not dusting his office properly in Taiwan. Lee had got so angry about the ordeal that he called in a camera crew to express his anger to the world. And of course RG cooperated by showing it in Irving. I'm not inferring it was shown in a church meeting but to 30 or so people.
Lisbon

[aron]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

Something far worse, around 30 years ago WL unmercifully harangued JI in a meeting blaming John for missing the proper end time setting of his song. And unrelated to this I saw a video in Irving once where WL miserably thrashed his servants for not dusting his office properly in Taiwan. Lee had got so angry about the ordeal that he called in a camera crew to express his anger to the world. And of course RG cooperated by showing it in Irving. I'm not inferring it was shown in a church meeting but to 30 or so people.

The closest I remember of something like this is where WL publicly humiliated TC in front of the training. TC even used the words "I am ashamed" to preface his confession that Cleveland wasn't up to Anaheim's standards.

Now I understand from Ohio, that the elders in Cleveland would have to say "I am ashamed" to TC, and then the rank-and-file members would also have to do the perp walk before the elders.

WL was the untouchable. Proper and harmonious "local church life" demanded this. But every one else was supposed to bow and scrape, all the way down. With the independent Americans, especially on the fringes, it wasn't always like this, and it could be a little more convivial. But the closer you got to the center, and the closer in cooperation you got with the center, you were supposed to see how things run. They didn't call them 'trainings' for nothing; ultimately it was about lining up with the apostle. That was the lodestar of the Lord's Recovery; that was the ground. And the shaming and bullying were simply reinforcement mechanisms to make sure everyone got conditioned, and got into the message.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

The closest I remember of something like this is where WL publicly humiliated TC in front of the training. TC even used the words "I am ashamed" to preface his confession that Cleveland wasn't up to Anaheim's standards.

It makes me sick remembering how Lee used to rebuke all the Recovery after every storm, making us all feel so shameful and guilty -- only to learn that he and his son were to blame for all the problems damaging the churches.

Like I said it makes me sick.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It makes me sick remembering how Lee used to rebuke all the Recovery after every storm, making us all feel so shameful and guilty -- only to learn that he and his son were to blame for all the problems damaging the churches.

The so-called storms were actually a reaction to what was bothering the conscience of many. I am not sure what the last storm was a reaction to, but for the ones in the late 70's and late 80's, Phillip Lee seemed to be a catalyst while Witness Lee choose to do nothing about it. Of course the blended brothers would spin it as Witness Lee was waiting on the Lord what to do.

As for the last turmoil of 2004-2006, you could say the blended brothers were the catalyst, and the concerned brothers were reacting. If there were no problems up to that point, why was the Phoenix Accord needed in February2003?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

And what's worse you probably didn't get in on the Budweiser song.

There was a brother here in the Seattle area who passed away 14-15 years ago. Prior to his passing and being in the same home meeting with him, he recounted waiting in line in a supermarket. The man in front of him was buying Budweiser beer, the brother began singing the LC song with the Budweiser tune. One way of speaking the gospel...or singing it.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Terry

There was a brother here in the Seattle area who passed away 14-15 years ago. Prior to his passing and being in the same home meeting with him, he recounted waiting in line in a supermarket. The man in front of him was buying Budweiser beer, the brother began singing the LC song with the Budweiser tune. One way of speaking the gospel...or singing it.

Oh how awesome !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If I remembered the words, I'd sing it today myself! The only words I remember is: When you say "Lord Jesus"...you've said it all. :-) People need a little picker upper in this day and age ! Too much drama everywhere we turn!