Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation?

[bearbear]

Hi All,

I'm an ex-LRC member who was in the LCs for over 20 years and did an extensive re-study of what the bible teaches concerning grace and salvation after I left. Frankly, I'm scared for the salvation of many in the LRC as well as for ex-members. Witness Lee taught that after a simple confession of belief in the Lord, you are saved forever via judicial redemption. I contend that the bible teaches that mere belief without repentance will likely land you in either hell or outer darkness for eternity after you die and not just for a thousand years during the millennial reign. Hebrews 9:27 makes it clear we only have once chance to repent and it's only in this life, not in outer darkness! I've written a lot along this regard and I wanted to share my articles with you for those of you who are wondering if the bible really teaches eternal security:

http://eternityinourheart.com/osas/

http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...epentance.html

http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...-believer.html

http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...-if-jesus.html

Here's a near death experience of a christian who nearly died while gambling in a casino. He ended up in outer darkness and the only thing he could do was gnash his teeth. God told him it was his eternity and not a thousand years!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6va_...iVyV7g&index=4


Here's an NDE of a pastor who died but didn't forgive his wife. He nearly ended up in hell because God told him he couldn't expect to sow unforgiveness and reap forgiveness from God!:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA7mt...iVyV7g&index=5

there's many more that I've posted on my website:
http://eternityinourheart.com

Also here are some verses I'd like to share right now. Read them and ask God if the bible really teaches soul versus spirit salvation or if outer darkness is only for a thousand years.

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Does the bible teach once saved always saved? You be the judge.
Jesus taught that man should not live on bread alone but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4). The apostle Paul says in Acts 20:27 that he did not shrink back from preaching the whole counsel of God. It's important to hear God's word in its entirety. Many of the promises in the bible that once saved always saved (OSAS) teachers rely on are interpreted out of context and have not been balanced with verses that clearly show how our own free will can prevent God's work of salvation in us.

Below are verses proponents of OSAS either ignore or explain away with elaborate theology and eisigesis. Jesus teaches us to be as wise as serpents but innocent as doves for good reason (Matthew 10:16). Paul warned Timothy that in the last days many would not endure sound doctrine (2 Timothy 4:3). Jesus also warned many false teachers would come in his name and decieve many (Matthew 24:11).

Ask Father God, who Jesus says is our one and only Teacher (Matthew 23:8) and the Holy Spirit whom he sent, to reveal the truth to you (John 16:12). Jesus promises eternal life to the sheep who hear his voice and follow him in John 10. This promise only applies to those who can hear his voice above all the other 'christian' voices, teachers, books and commentaries in the world.

If you were taught free grace theology in church, remember that the bible likens the word of God to a two-edged sword that is able to cut through the heart (Hebrews 4:12). This cutting can be painful because the word of God is powerful in its own right even without interpretation but it's what we need to stay on the narrow path which leads to life when we go astray (Matthew 7, John 15).

In Hosea 4:6 God tells Israel "My people are destroyed because they do not know me" because the Israelites thought they could worship foreign gods and still be okay with Jehovah. Perhaps this applies well to many Christians today who believe they can give their hearts to the world and still stand right before God.

Verses below are taken from the English Standard Version unless otherwise specified.


Holiness is required

Hebrews 10:26-27
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:3-5
But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1 John 3:8
Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

Hebrews 12:14
Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Obedience is required

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Perseverance is required

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

If it would have better for them not to have received the gospel, they are probably not ending up in heaven!

Hebrews 6:4-8
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

Matthew 24:13
But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Ezekiel 18:24
But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.

Living by the Holy Spirit is required

John 15:6
If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Romans 8:1 (KJV)
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 6:8
The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Forgiving everyone is required

Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mark 11:25
And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

Colossians 3:13
Bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.

Not loving the world is required

James 4:4
You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

1 John 2:15
Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Luke 14:34-35
Salt is good, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is of no use either for the soil or for the manure pile. It is thrown away. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Matthew 6:24
No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.

Taking the cross is required

Galatians 5:24
And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Deducing by the logic of if A => B, then not B => not A, we can infer that those who have not "crucified the flesh" do not belong to Christ Jesus.
Luke 17:33
Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it.

Matthew 10:38
And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Believing in vain is possible

1 Corinthians 15:2
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Luke 12:46 (NIV)
The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

The Greek word rendered 'unbelievers' is apistoj. Some translations say unfaithful however apistoj unequivocally means heathen or unbeliever (see here). He was once a servant of the Lord but he meets the same fate as those who never even acknowledged the Lord.

Matthew 13:20-21
As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.

Galatians 5:1-2
For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.

Philippians 2:16
holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.
What does Paul mean by "I did not run in vain or labor in vain"? Perhaps it was because he was worried many in the churches would forfeit their salvation!

Genuine repentance is required

Matthew 3:7-9
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.

Acts 2:37-38
Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 26:19-21
“Therefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance. For this reason the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me.

Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,

Luke 13:3
No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Ezekiel 18:21-23
“But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?

Few are saved

Luke 13:24
Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Matthew 7:13-14
Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

1 Peter 4:18
And “If the righteous is scarcely saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”

Your name can be removed from the book of life

Psalms 69:27-28
Add iniquity unto their iniquity; And let them not come into thy righteousness, Let them be blotted out of the book of life, And not be written with the righteous.

Exodus 32:33
And the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book." If one dies without forgiveness of their sins their name vanishes out of the record book of life.

Revelation 3:5
"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." We overcome by our faith which is exhibited by faithfulness.

Deducing the opposite: If you believe but don't overcome, the implication is your name can be blotted out of the book of life.
Avoid these at all costs

Revelation 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Mark 3:29
but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.

Revelation 14:9-11
And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Sound impossible? We can't do it alone!
The disciples once asked Jesus "Who then can be saved?" (Luke 18:26) because the standard that Jesus set in his preaching made salvation seem impossible. Coming to know that we can't save ourselves is a good thing. We are utterly dependent on God for our salvation. In fact the Hebrew name for Jesus, Yeshua means God is our salvation! The only thing God requires is that we make the choice from our heart to turn away from all the idols of the world and the desires of our flesh unto Him. Psalms 37:4 says that God will give us the desires of our heart, so if we desire God, we will obtain him. He is a God that respects our free will and is faithful to work out our salvation for us and through us after we choose Him over everything else. He does this by making his home in our heart through the Holy Spirit when we obey God and love him with all of our heart (John 14:23)

Mark 9:24-25
Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!”. And when Jesus saw that a crowd came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “You mute and deaf spirit, I command you, come out of him and never enter him again.”

The father makes the choice from his heart to believe. But he realizes as hard as he wants to believe, his faith is still lacking and he is utterly dependent on God's grace to help him. Jesus faithfully responds to the desire from his heart by casting out the unclean spirit.
2 Corinthians 3:16
But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.

John 15:5
I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

Matthew 19:26
But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

John 14:23
Jesus answered him, "If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him."

Romans 5:10
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

We are saved by God living through us which happens when we love God and obey His word (John 14:23). If you follow the first commandment by loving the Lord God with all your heart, soul and mind (Luke 10:27), you will be able to overcome because everything else will follow through Christ living in you (Colossians 1:27).
What about the verses that guarantee salvation?
1 Corinthians 5:5
you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

Many point to this verse as a guarantee of salvation even for those who are living in sin such as this Corinthian believer who had relations with his step-mother. However, when this verse is read carefully we realize that it's not a guarantee but a warning! Using straightforward deduction, if the Corinthians do not abide by Paul's instruction here, this believer's spirit may not be saved. Paul is telling the Corinthians to excommunicate this sinner and let the world have it's way with him so he will be brought to repentance, in the same way that the prodigal son came to repent in Luke 15.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

This verse isn't a promise of salvation as much as it is an expression of God's love. The Greek grammar the apostle John used for the verb believe is in the present continuous tense. Read in English, it deceptively appears as if christians need only believe once when it should be read "continually believe".

The Greek verb translated to "should" for the phrase "should not perish" in the ESV and KJV is often rendered as "would" or "shall" in other translations such as NIV. "should" implies probability and necessity whereas "would" and "shall" are guarantees. Which one is the correct translation? Dr. Marion, a scholar in Greek languages gives a thorough argument why the correct translation is "should" here:

"Should" is frequently a part of the translation of the tense of the verb mello which means to be about to do something. The uses of should and would correspond to those of shall and will. In our text the word "should" is in the subjunctive mood which expresses doubt or a wish or condition contrary to fact. Examples: "I wish I were a lawyer," or, "If I were you, I should go." Moreover, in John 3:16 Jesus used the word "not" which negates the force of "should." The original reads: me apoletai alla - me apoletai alla, (rendered "should not perish," KJV). In the Greek this phrase is second aorist, middle subjective, intransitive, of apollumi, meaning to destroy. Hence the believer should not be destroyed, but have life eternal, the exact opposite of what will happen to the unbeliever.

Earlier we saw that the verb "should" conveys a doubt, a wish or condition contrary to fact, Thus in John 3:16, the believer may or may not exercise his right as a believer. He has a choice to believe and obey the gospel or else to simply acknowledge the Lord (believe in Him as a person) and die lost. (Acts 26:27; James 2:19; John 12:42; cf. John 1:11-12; 20:31).

1 Corinthians 3:15
If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Many also point to this verse as a guarantee of salvation. Catholics and kingdom exclusion teachers such as Watchman Nee and southern Baptists use this verse to support their doctrine of purgatory or a temporary period of discipline in outer darkness for unfaithful believers.

We agree this verse confirms that we are saved by grace and not works. Paul is trying to convey that if someone has truly repented but has no good works he will still be saved. One example is the thief on the cross next to Jesus in Luke 23:43. Because of this believer's sinful past, God must burn up his works so that he can forget them. This verse isn't saying the believer will be burned, but that the works are so that he may be saved.

Perhaps knowing that many would twist this concession to mean more than it should, Paul proceeds to warn in the next verses "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. (KJV)" so that believers would understand that salvation still requires holiness. If we say we believe but don't repent and instead defile our hearts through practicing sin, God will still cast us into hell.

The concept of purgatorial suffering in outer darkness preceding entrance into the kingdom of heaven simply isn't found in the bible. Hebrews 9:27 makes it clear that our only chance to repent is in this life and not after we die. Outer darkness rather than being temporary is for eternity given the finality of the Lord's words in Matthew 7 and echoed again in Luke 13 "Depart from me you workers of lawlessness, I never knew you!". We only have one shot and it's in this life!

Romans 8:38-39
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is a wonderful promise God gives us that we should all hold on to. However this verse poignantly leaves out 'us' or own free will. Nothing can separate us from the love of God except ourselves! Read in context of the passage, Paul is saying don't relate the circumstances around you to God's love. We may be in the worst tribulation or calamity, but God is always there with us as he was with Job, even when we don't see him or sense him.
John 10:29
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Again, a wonderful promise. No one will snatch us away. However nothing in this verse indicates that God will stop us from jumping out of His hand. But even if we do jump out of the Father's hand, God as our good Shepherd is faithful to search us out and return us to the fold (Matthew 18). But it's up to us to hear his voice and follow him back. Unlike demons who inhabit people against their will, God will never violate our free will by forcing himself on us, yet He is faithful even when we are unfaithful (2 Timothy 2:13). OSAS may not be biblical, but God is still abounding in grace and mercy giving us far more than we deserve.

[OBW]

I believe that "once saved always saved" is an overly simplistic slogan that does not properly reflect some portions of the scripture that we read. It has even been said that Calvin (the alleged source of Calvinism, the original OSAS doctrine) did not believe what is taught officially as Calvinism.

When I look at the official doctrine of Calvinism, then at the official doctrine of Arminianism, I see issues with both. Yet I find truth in both. Neither is total right or totally wrong.

I think that, to some degree, the problem lies in the use of the word "saved." In scripture, it refers to something that happens when you "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ," and it also refers to something that you must spend your entire life endeavoring to work out with fear and trembling. And that latter version is not just "by grace alone." It requires work over the remainder of our lives. It requires a sober mind that is diligent and a will to go with it.

Sometimes I wish I had at least one of those.

So there may be some real serious theology buffs that may want to take this on. But suffice it to say that I find little cause to completely buy the teaching, but also no reason to simply reject it. The fortune-cookie approach to Bible exposition is what got us the competing doctrines in the first place, along with others like "trinity." I like that one, but I doubt that it is really that important to put so much thought into it or fight about nuanced versions of it. (Not even sure that Modalists are truly heretics that believe in a different Jesus.)

[bearbear]

Hi OBW,

I actually don't have problems with Calvinism especially when it's not used as a license to sin. For example, John Piper, a well known staunch Calvinist believes anyone practicing sin (not just sinning by accident or stumbling into sin, but addictions) per Galatians 5:19-21 without repentance was never saved to begin with even if they call themselves a Christian. This includes people who divorced and remarried on grounds other than sexual immorality and men who are regularly looking at porn.

I believe Witness Lee's version of grace is dangerous because he teaches that only mere calling on the Lord is necessary for salvation. Repentance (or metanoia a change of mind / turning from practice of sin) is never taught in the LRC and confession of sins is taught as only necessary to clear our conscience with God. I wouldn't call LRC's version of grace standard calvinism, it's more like free-grace or hyper grace also similarly taught by other Christians from extreme dispensationalist backgrounds.

That said, here's my take on faith and works from my website:

Faith, Works and Weddings
Another way to look at faith versus works is through the lens of what happens before a wedding. In the New Testament, the church is referred to as the bride of Jesus who is our bridegroom (Eph. 5:25-27). Jesus often related to his followers in the context of a traditional Jewish wedding, where the bridegroom had to purchase the bride with a price or the mohar. He accomplished this by paying the bride price for our salvation with his life thereby granting us a gift we did not deserve (Romans 6:23). This is what the apostle Paul meant when he said we're not saved by works because there is nothing we can add to pay for the mohar. The debt has already been paid, it is finished (John 19:30). We now belong to him and are set apart for his return (1 Cor 6:20). However, before the bridegroom Jesus comes to receive us, the bride is expected to remain faithful to the bridegroom (Matthew 25:11-13). We can do this by giving our heart fully to Jesus which results in a life of obedience (John 14:23).

Persisting in faithfuness is important. After the bridegroom pays the bride price to fulfill the marriage covenant or the ketubah, the bride and groom would drink a cup of wine to seal their covenant. The bridegroom would then depart for his father's house to prepare a room for the bride; as Jesus described he would do in John 14:3. After they were apart, the bride and groom would continue to drink a cup of wine regularly in remembrance of their faithfulness to each other. So when we take communion, it's a statement not just of remembrance, but of our promised faithfulness to Jesus our bridegroom.

Originally Posted by OBW

I believe that "once saved always saved" is an overly simplistic slogan that does not properly reflect some portions of the scripture that we read. It has even been said that Calvin (the alleged source of Calvinism, the original OSAS doctrine) did not believe what is taught officially as Calvinism.

When I look at the official doctrine of Calvinism, then at the official doctrine of Arminianism, I see issues with both. Yet I find truth in both. Neither is total right or totally wrong.

I think that, to some degree, the problem lies in the use of the word "saved." In scripture, it refers to something that happens when you "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ," and it also refers to something that you must spend your entire life endeavoring to work out with fear and trembling. And that latter version is not just "by grace alone." It requires work over the remainder of our lives. It requires a sober mind that is diligent and a will to go with it.

Sometimes I wish I had at least one of those.

So there may be some real serious theology buffs that may want to take this on. But suffice it to say that I find little cause to completely buy the teaching, but also no reason to simply reject it. The fortune-cookie approach to Bible exposition is what got us the competing doctrines in the first place, along with others like "trinity." I like that one, but I doubt that it is really that important to put so much thought into it or fight about nuanced versions of it. (Not even sure that Modalists are truly heretics that believe in a different Jesus.)

[countmeworthy]

I have always had difficulty understanding 'taking up the cross'. Funny, I was just talking to a brother yesterday about that very thing ! LOL.

So yes. Repentence & the cross (The Blood of Jesus) is necessary for Salvation. To be sure, I totally understand Galations 2:20...and there it mentions being crucified with Christ.

Salvation I have discovered is a process. There is eternal salvation & then our daily salvation.

A broken & a contrite heart God will not despise.

With certainty, every person who is born again has repented. If he has not how can he/she see desire Christ? Darkness does not want to be in the Light.

But we must repent daily because our minds & hearts are still polluted. As an example. It is easy for people to pray for their loved ones, our country, Israel etc... but try praying for someone who broke your heart or betrayed you when you thought you could trust them. Try praying for an ex spouse who cheated on you, divorced you & left you high & dry...AND they were a 'Christian'. Yeah... not so easy is it?

Though I have not been married... I am speaking from my experience of being betrayed, hurt, abandoned etc... I did not pray for them right away of course but in due time as I grew closer to the Lord, His Spirit told me to pray for them. WHAT ??? NOOOO LORD!!! WHY me ????

But when I obeyed and prayed for them to draw nearer to HIM, to have Mercy on them as He had mercy on me, to forgive them as He forgave me, the hurt, the yoke, the heavy burdened lifted.

Glory to God in the Highest!

[OBW]

It does seem interesting that the thread is titled concerning "taking the cross" and "repenting" yet seems to spend the lion's share of the opening dialog talking about Calvinism.

I’m sure that it somewhat changed sooner than I give credit. But when posts are multiple times longer than mine (which are often too long), even I give out. Especially when the topic has the appeal of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I’m not saying that the topic is as frivolous. But for the reasons I included in my first post to this thread, I believe that most of the controversy surrounding the Calvinism/Arminian debate, like many others, is straining gnats. Whatever is true or false in those teachings is what it is. Whether I believe it one way or the other will not change my destiny. If I truly believe in Christ, and follow, it will not matter which I think is correct.

I don't think that a proper Calvinist teaching is sending anyone to hell. I do note that most true Calvinists still join in worship of God on a regular basis. They do not have some kind of "I'm in or out, so who cares what I do" kind of mentality. If that were actually true, then I would have more concern for those who follow such teaching.

On "taking the cross," I'm with CMW. I'm not sure what that means. I realize that there was the imagery of the accused being required to carry their own means of execution. But while I'm sure that the intent was to suggest a significant burden, were the references by Jesus really about heading toward death in that sense (or any sense)? Is it about the "crossing out" of one's self? I believe that there is some truth in that kind of thinking. But I'm not sure that it is at the level that most who talk about it take it. It is not some kind of annihilation of the self. Maybe more like the extremes used when saying you either love God and hate money, or it is the other way around. The point was not hate, it was wrong priorities. But "hate" was the term used for "2nd place."

A little like saying that there is the winner and everyone else is a "looooooseeeeeer." Even the one that gets the silver medal is just a loser.

Now when I read Galatians 2:20, I don't see the same kind of ongoing "cross" that others often speak of. It seems that in this passage Paul is providing facts, or reasons, that they don't need to be turning to the OT ritualistic law (especially of circumcision). They don't need to be circumcised. They have already been crucified. "I have been." Not "I am being" or "I am continually being" crucified. No need to cross out a piece of flesh when your whole being is crucified.

Obviously, this is also not literal, but metaphorical. The crucifixion of Christ did all that was necessary for right standing before God. No more need to mutilate the flesh (with a scalpel, whip, or austere living).

[bearbear]

I'm with you OBW, I don't want to get into a discussion of Calvinism either because I don't think it's relevant and didn't mean to bring it up. The reason being again that Witness Lee wasn't a five point Calvinist but a free grace teacher. Calvinism teaches sovereign grace and perseverance of the saints, free grace teaches that our sins are forgiven past present and future and the moral law of the OT has been abolished, sin doesn't matter and we only need to confess it to clear our relationship with God for fellowship. Okay now that's established let's move things back to repentance and taking the cross.

I believe the New Testament clearly teaches in many places that you don't belong to Jesus unless you take the cross, meaning you crucify the desires and passions of your flesh. This is spelled out clearly in Galatians 5:24

And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

And again in Matthew 10:38

And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

The Hebrew name for Jesus is Yeshua which means the Lord is our salvation. If you don't have Jesus, I'm sorry but you don't have salvation!

When the Jews asked Peter how they could be saved after the demonstration of tongues at Pentecost, Peter replied in Acts 2:38

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Greek word for repent is metanoia. It means more than just confessing sins, it means having a change of mind-- in other words having your worldview rocked by adopting the mind of Christ.

And Carol was right about daily salvation. The same Apostle Paul who preached that we're saved by grace through faith alone also preached that after we repent, we have to keep our repentance ongoing through works:

Acts 26:19-21
“Therefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance. For this reason the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me.

How could this be? It's because we're saved by a faith that works. True faith causes us to live in good works. Hebrews 10:38 says the righteous shall live by faith- faith is something we live out and not just hold in our belly.

And not just any faith counts, but faith working through love!

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

Now we got that settled, it's clear why all these ugly things happened in the LCs. I believe it's because Witness Lee never crucified the desires of his flesh-- namely the desire to see his sons inherit his kingdom, and the desire to build a worldly corporate enterprise to make money. He was a victim of his own teachings concerning salvation. And we see the fruit of that today looking back at LC history.

But just because Witness Lee stumbled doesn't mean we have to. Mr. Lee is dead, but we're still alive. Life is a gift from God, and we still have the opportunity to repent while we're alive. This includes loving and forgiving those who have hurt us the most, including everyone in the LC system!

You may ask why I'm making such a big issue on grace and salvation. I'll contend that if there's any doctrine you want to get right, this is it! What could be more important than your eternity really?

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by OBW

On "taking the cross," I'm with CMW. I'm not sure what that means. I realize that there was the imagery of the accused being required to carry their own means of execution. But while I'm sure that the intent was to suggest a significant burden, were the references by Jesus really about heading toward death in that sense (or any sense)?

In the last couple of years, I have been reading/studying the scriptures not only as it pertains to me & us Christians. Somewhere along the line, it dawned on me Jesus mostly preached to the Jews (Salvation to everyone who believes..to the Jews first, remember ? Romans 1:16..then to the rest of us.

It only makes sense that was God's plan as Jesus was not born in China or India.

Once I began to see that God through Jesus, His Spirit & even in the epistles He was addressing the JEWS first for they were the first to be converted to Christ, the Holy Spirit began to open the eyes of my understanding of a lot of things spoken of in the scriptures.

So we have the Jews who were adhering to the Law of Moses, the Torah, the Tanach, hearing Jesus tell them to take up their cross. I am sure their reaction was "HUH??? Do What???"

Is it about the "crossing out" of one's self? I believe that there is some truth in that kind of thinking. But I'm not sure that it is at the level that most who talk about it take it. It is not some kind of annihilation of the self.

It is not the annihilation that the RCC taught & poor Francis of Assisi took that teaching to the extreme. Talk about WORKS ??? ARRGH!!

Now when I read Galatians 2:20, ...It seems that in this passage Paul is providing facts, or reasons, that they don't need to be turning to the OT ritualistic law (especially of circumcision). They don't need to be circumcised.

Oh this is scary Mike. Not only am I understanding what you are writing but I agree with you.

The Lord Jesus was preparing the Jews to 'take up their cross' by learning to walk in Spirit. Something they had no clue of for He had not even spoken of the Comforter He would be sending on Pentecost.

Bringing it closer to home, I had the darnest time figuring out Galatians 2:20 meant when I was in the LC back in the 70s. Remember, we did not watch TV, listen to the radio, read only newspaper headlines, went to meeting after meeting, called 'on the Lord' repeatedly, perpetually, incessantly, and monotonously. AND we dressed alike.

So what was the need to teach Galatians 2:20? We had left everything far, far behind us.

Finally after I returned to my Heavenly Father with a humble, repentant heart, I began spending a LOT of time praying, reading, studying and getting to KNOW THE LORD in the scriptures and via my walk with Him.

I was not pressured by anyone to seek and know the LORD. Then one day, the Spirit turned the Light switch in me. OH!!! Now I get Galations 2:20. It wass simply spending time, a LOT of time with the Lord letting HIM renew my mind, purifying my thoughts & my heart in Christ Jesus.

I experienced real freedom. If I was listening to oldies but goodies on the radio, while the tune was catchy, the Lord would have me listen closely to the words. Suddenly, I realized the catchy tune with the polluted words were making me sick to my stomach. So I changed stations. Same thing with TV shows. There are some really funny sitcoms but my spirit is weighed down with the immoral but 'funny' storylines.

I am not under 'the law': Do not watch TV. Do not listen to secular music! Nope. But my Love for the Lord and His Word is 'naturally' crucifying the flesh. Simple as that. So it is no longer "I" that lives but Christ Who lives IN me....changing my taste buds to love what He loves & hate what He hates.

Blessings all,
Carol

[bearbear]

Sorry I owe you all an apology. I should have held my tongue. I left also because I felt I have nothing useful to add that would be constructive. Y'all are right because you have definitely made up your minds.

But please forgive me as I will do my best to forgive and walk in love. Pray for me also as I will pray for you.

The only suggestion I might put forward is for all of us to just empty our spirits before we come to God's word. As Watchman Nee taught we should do our best to come to God's word without any preconception.

I would really like free-grace doctrine to be true so I can have peace about the salvation of my nominal Christian friends and relatives. I wish God could just allow me to go full Joel Osteen preaching a positive message that would be much more palatable, but the more I read scripture the more I just can't make it honestly work in my spirit and in my mind. If any of you can come up with a strong exegetical argument I'm all ears.

That said I think my arguments for repentance being necessary for salvation suck compared to what was written here:
http://christianity.stackexchange.co...-for-salvation

This guy sums is up much better than I can!

But if any of you come around to questioning free grace or have any more questions about repentance you can email me at sam@eternityinourheart.com

And thanks awareness I will check out that Jesse Penn Lewis book when I can!

And sorry about being too pushy concerning this anti free-grace stuff. Part of my anxiety is because I believe Jesus is coming soon-- another reason to repent and get the message of repentance out! You may not believe repentance is necessary for salvation, but is it necessary for the rapture?

Matthew 24:42
Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

Jesus tells us to "watch and pray that we will be counted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass" in Luke 21:36. Maybe you will be spared from a piano falling on your head But will Jesus rapture someone while they're lusting after a woman in their mind? Will he rapture you if you still have unforgiveness in your heart?

Love in Christ,

Sam

[james73]

Originally Posted by bearbear

As Watchman Nee taught we should do our best to come to God's word without any preconception.

There is no hope of enlightenment if approaching the bible with the preconception it is "God's word".

You could not drink water if you needed to control the construction of the hydrogen and oxygen atoms from subatomic particles, the binding of the atoms into the water molecule, the interactions between gravity and the chemistry in your body, you would die of thirst while still on the four millionth page of quantum calculations for the first drop……. Drink it, don't analyze it

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by james73

There is no hope of enlightenment if approaching the bible with the preconception it is "God's word".

You could not drink water if you needed to control the construction of the hydrogen and oxygen atoms from subatomic particles, the binding of the atoms into the water molecule, the interactions between gravity and the chemistry in your body, you would die of thirst while still on the four millionth page of quantum calculations for the first drop……. Drink it, don't analyze it

God says we will be blessed if we meditate on his word:

This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success. (Joshua 1:8 ESV)

Meditate
1 : to focus one's thoughts on : reflect on or ponder over 2 : to plan or project in the mind : intend, purpose

I've been able to be helped by so many scripture simply by meditating on it- reflecting on it, considering the context, even imagining scenarios where I can live out the word, checking to see if it can correct me and most importantly discern what God wants to say to me through it.

Whenever youth at my church ask me a question, I'll usually have a verse in my head that answers their question immediately. I can't explain how it happens except that God's word is living and ready to bust out whenever you need it if you keep it close to your heart

[OBW]

Originally Posted by james73

There is no hope of enlightenment if approaching the bible with the preconception it is "God's word".

You could not drink water if you needed to control the construction of the hydrogen and oxygen atoms from subatomic particles, the binding of the atoms into the water molecule, the interactions between gravity and the chemistry in your body, you would die of thirst while still on the four millionth page of quantum calculations for the first drop……. Drink it, don't analyze it

I have to agree with BB on this.

And while the Bible is not the end of God's word, it is the anchor for anything that we call God's word. If anyone, as Lee did, suggests that there is no more commandment of the law, they are speaking in opposition to God's word because Jesus said that the command not only remains, but is more intricately difficult than the original.

But then He did two things. He gave the great commandment, in two parts, that sums up the entirety of the commands. Then as the result of his death and resurrection, we now have the Spirit with us always to lean on and walk with as we live our lives to Him.

I don't get the meaning of the discourse on chemistry. It has no obvious parallel. Maybe he meant that we don't need to understand how it is made. But what he said was we couldn't drink if we had to make it. Mostly true. But hydrogen, oxygen, and a spark do quite fine. Just difficult to deal with the resulting explosion.

The chemistry in your body is irrelevant to making water. Water is water. once inside, your body does its thing.

As to Nee's comment about preconception, it is true. But there is no way to do that. So we must each bring our by-definition skewed view together with others who bring theirs. Only together do we find the truth.

And that is something neither Nee nor Lee could or would do. They were loners, thinking their own thoughts and teaching everyone else to follow them as if God spoke uniquely through them.

[james73]

Originally Posted by OBW

I don't get the meaning of the discourse on chemistry. It has no obvious parallel. Maybe he meant that we don't need to understand how it is made. But what he said was we couldn't drink if we had to make it. Mostly true. But hydrogen, oxygen, and a spark do quite fine. Just difficult to deal with the resulting explosion.

The chemistry in your body is irrelevant to making water. Water is water. once inside, your body does its thing.

Not what I meant to say - of course, we can make water from H and O--- I meant, what if we had to consciously control the absorption of water by our body, like a very complicated game of Tetris, rather than, as you said, the body just doing its thing? Or more complicated yet, what if we actually had to synthesis our own H and O from nothing but energy and first principles before we could combine them to make the water molecule in the first place? I meant we couldn't drink it not because it would be undrinkable but because it would take forever to make it, we'd die of thirst first. But of course, we don't need to do all this, we have water, we drink it, and, as you said, the body just does its thing.

Ok chemistry discourse II over

The parallel was this, and the point is open to debate, but this is what I believe: the divine is exactly the same. The "body" does its thing. The divine is in us no matter we understand it, know it, believe it, disbelieve it, whether we sin or repent or just go about a humdrum existence. The divine is in murderers, prostitutes and evil lying pastors, just as it is in bearbear, OBW and me.

Being human, having this fruit of knowledge, is a barrier to the divine. "Sin" and "guilt" are distractions - if I am lusting after a woman on the street, I am missing the eternal truth of the beauty and cosmic "whatever you call it" around me, because I am stuck in petty human knowledge and desire, most of it driven by ego. If I steal to get a better life, or am jealous, or envy, or any of those ten commandments, I am missing a point somewhere. If I do not love, I am missing the divine within me. It's not that these are sins to be judged, they are barriers to seeing what is already in us. A sin is a barrier.

We are made in God's image, that part is evident with or without biblical authority, we can create, we can contemplate, think, destroy, love. We don't need to go to all these intellectual lengths or jump through repentance hoops to be "saved", or seek this eternal kingdom or whatever doctrine you follow. It's all a distraction - the "eternal life" is here and now.

Forget "near death experiences", have a "near life experience"! Or even better, a genuine life experience--- wake up and see that eternity is running in you, "God" doing its thing, and not just on those who read a certain book or call it a certain name or believe a particular story. God, like water, is working in all humans, and the path to liberation and eternal bliss is merely removing the barriers to seeing this. Religion can help remove those barriers, but when it becomes so cumbersome and prescriptive, it builds more barriers than it removes.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by james73

The parallel was this, and the point is open to debate, but this is what I believe: the divine is exactly the same. The "body" does its thing. The divine is in us no matter we understand it, know it, believe it, disbelieve it, whether we sin or repent or just go about a humdrum existence. The divine is in murderers, prostitutes and evil lying pastors, just as it is in bearbear, OBW and me.

I agree God loves sinners and he wants to save them at all costs. Jesus didn't avoid them but he ran to them. He ate and drank with the lowest dregs of society and you may even think of him as a party pooper but he even made alcohol for them. This puzzled the Pharisees but Jesus explained that he was a physician searching for patients to heal. However it's not healthy for sick people to stay sick after they visit the doctor.

No where in the bible does it say that it's acceptable for sinners to stay sinners, instead they are expected to be on a path which leads them to being saints. Paul never addressed his letters to sinners but to saints. When referring to those in churches, he reserved the use of the term 'sinner' for those living in sin and in danger of losing their salvation unless they repent (see 1 Cor 5:5).

“Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food”—and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. (1 Corinthians 6:13)

Here Paul warns believers that as a stomach is destroyed along with the food, so will God destroy you (the temple of the Holy Spirit) if you let things like sexual immorality abide in you through unrepentant practice of sin. So if a prostitute invites the Holy Spirit into her life but continues in sexual immorality without repentance, she's still going to hell if she dies.

Being human, having this fruit of knowledge, is a barrier to the divine. "Sin" and "guilt" are distractions - if I am lusting after a woman on the street, I am missing the eternal truth of the beauty and cosmic "whatever you call it" around me, because I am stuck in petty human knowledge and desire, most of it driven by ego. If I steal to get a better life, or am jealous, or envy, or any of those ten commandments, I am missing a point somewhere. If I do not love, I am missing the divine within me. It's not that these are sins to be judged, they are barriers to seeing what is already in us. A sin is a barrier.

This view of sin can only comfortably exist under free grace theology, a doctrine that is held by small minority of Christians. According to wikipedia here are the groups that do: "[Free grace theology's] prominent present-day expressions are the Grace Evangelical Society, the Free Grace Alliance, the Plymouth Brethren, and the local churches".The vast majority of Christians treat sin much more seriously, so we should do our homework to see if this is taught in the bible.

I contend that the concept of sinning only mattering in the OT but getting a free pass in the New Covenant is a doctrine that comes straight from the pit of hell and will result in the damnation of many well meaning Christians. I was once one of those who used to think I was so lucky to be born in the "age of grace". Why if I was living in OT times, I'd probably be screwed because so many of the Israelites probably ended up in the fiery side of Sheol due to rebellion and practicing of sin. But read Ezekiel 18 and you will realize that God is the same yesterday today and forever.

That said, I am still grateful for living in this time. The difference between the OT and the NT is that the Holy Spirit was sent down from heaven! This was made possible by the ascension of our wonderful Savior Jesus ("unless I go up, he cannot come down"). So make sure you take advantage of this unique opportunity by inviting the Holy Spirit to dwell in you after repenting. If you read the OT you'll realize God's spirit was not as easily made available to the Israelites. For example, God only sent his Spirit upon Moses initially, ignoring everyone else. (A good book on this part of the trinity that many ignore to their detriment is "The Forgotten God" by Francis Chan.)

So in Romans 6 and in numerous other places spread throughout his epistles, Paul warns that practicing sin leads to death. The way the word "death" is understood in the LCs is just something you wanna avoid-- which we all agree with. But back in the LCs we never pinpointed exactly what "death" means in the context of the new covenant.

So if you do your homework, it's not that hard to figure out. Jesus uses the words "death" many times in sayings like "let the dead bury the dead but as for you go proclaim the kingdom of God". So we know he was referring to people who were physically alive as "dead", because how else can you bury someone unless you are breathing? But then in other places, Jesus calls those who are physically dead as "sleeping"!

Remember when Lazarus died? Jesus told his disciples to chill out cause his friend was only sleeping. That tripped them up and Jesus eventually had to tell them plainly that he'd died, but they'd figure out later what he meant. We all know later that Lazarus resurrected from the dead-- so Jesus was really giving us an idea that he doesn't use the word "death" lightly, and he avoids that term for people who are dead but will resurrect again choosing to say "sleeping" instead.

So now you've probably realized what "death" really means. It's a euphemism for the only "death" that matters in the timeline of eternity. And that's spiritual death which is the absence of eternal life. It's the *THE REAL DEATH* you want to avoid at all costs: an unhappy ending consisting of spending eternity in either hell or outer darkness.

So try reading the New Testament again and substitute words like death and destruction in your mind with "hell" or "outer darkness for eternity" and your worldview will be rocked as mine was.

The reason those like Paul avoided using the word "hell" directly was because it would have been impolite. Back then "hell" was an uncomfortable word to use as it is today. Only Jesus had no qualms saying that taboo word when he warned believers against it.

So Paul and other writers thought up clever euphemisms to replace the usage of "hell". Here are the ones that come up the top of my head.

1. Death
2. Destruction
3. Believing in vain
4. Christ will profit you nothing
5. Burn up
6. Perishing
7. Destroy
8. "I've labored in vain"
9. Disqualified
10. Wrath of God
11. "Vengeance is mine!"

If you are scared for your salvation after reading this or think God is really cruel, please find my testimony somewhere in this thread. Or go to my blog here: http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...-out-free.html

[Paul Vusik]

Here is LCs definition of “taking a cross”, so for those of you who have issues with the people in LC as cold, uncaring, cannot develop any significant relationships, and other things that have been expressed by a lot of people in multiple threads here, it’s is the result of this awful interpretations that causes people to be that way. There is absolutely nothing else to blame it on, when you read this kind of junk!

“What does it mean to bear the cross? To bear the cross means to see that we are finished and ended. As soon as we begin to love someone, the cross will operate in us to kill our love. Can a crucified person still love others by himself? Can someone who is on the cross still be active? Can someone who is on the cross still do something? It is impossible. If we know the cross and bear the cross, we will immediately see that the cross has already terminated us.”

https://www.ministrybooks.org/Search...?id=0B00CFC1CD


So they consider themselves “non existent”, so asking or expecting anything from a non existent being is just impossible. I guess all I saw at the meetings was just ghosts of people.

[Paul Vusik]

As a rebuttal to this nonsense spewed by the LC, as in the quote I posted here yesterday, I wanted to provide couple of verses to show why this concept is not so. It is presented in the LC this way, with a single purpose, that is to hold people hostage, sometimes for their whole life. They think that they can, or do have some kind of means, ways, or even authority to determine each believers personal relationship with God. They can measure, identify, and tell you whether the simplest of things as loving someone, is of your “self”, or of what God through your process of new birth and regeneration has put into your heart.
It is absolute spiritual atrocity that any man in this world can commit, by inserting himself or themselves into that position. They judge a persons spiritual life, and their growth in life, based on their own live, own experiences, or lack there of. For the most part, people who do this, have nothing to offer, nothing to build people up with, nothing to give to people in terms of spiritual food for their growth. But it’s just to knock them down, tell them they are “fleshly and soulish”, and have a long way to go to catch up to them. They have the template that everyone is inserted and measured with, no questions asked or objections to be made.
On the other hand, there is real, beautiful, and truly living life, that has been given to each and every born again believer! This life, cannot be faked, cannot be destroyed, questioned, knock down or subjected to men’s templates. That life, is there by the grace and mercy of God. It teaches you, it instills Godly ways and principles through the work of the Holy Spirit. No man can know this life in you, besides you. The only thing that they will be able to say, that there is something different about this person. They will see the fruits of the work of God in you!
What’s really unfortunate today, is that people that have none of those things happening in their life’s, are the ones that determining your growth. They installed themselves as the “caretakers” by every possible way that they could. They sure are the most humble of people, polite, and present themselves as the most genuine. But what gives them away, is that the things that they ask of others, they can’t exhibit themselves, so they always have to knock everyone down so they don’t get ahead of where they are at. God forbid you actually love your neighbor, or you care for someone when they don’t. How would that make them look?
Well, I will just say that next time one of those man, tells you that you are in your soul, you need to give up, you need to die, even though God has done otherwise in your life and you know it better that them, there is an unction in you that testifying otherwise: tell that person just like Jesus did to Peter, “get thee behind me satan”! Don’t let them trample what God has done for you! Don’t let them steal those precious things that God has put in you! Don’t let them question your heart and then question God! Be bold and courageous like that blind man in John 9, who didn’t let these filthy leaders destroy that what Jesus has done for Him, but stood tall, even at the cost of being cast out of the synagogue. Because even if they do, Jesus will be there for you more that before. He will take care of you, way more that any of those man ever wished or are capable of. Trust in Jesus, and not in any man!


2 Tim 2:11
11*It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:


Romans 8:11
11*But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Colossians 2:18-23
18*Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19*And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20*Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21*(Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22*Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23*Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

God bless!