Current status of the Local Church?

I have relatives who accepted Christ as Savior in the mid 70's. Their lives and personalities started to change positively. They then became involved in the local church, which they are still involved in, and they became distant from the family, somewhat argumentative and critical. One of the members seemed to be coming out of lifelong depression after first becoming a Christian - appearing happy, until they started with the local church. Now, after almost 40 yrs in that cult, depression and withdrawal seems to characterize the personality.

I have frequently prayed for the cult's deliverance from deception. I'm wondering if anyone knows whether the local church is increasing or decreasing in numbers. Also, does anyone know if perhaps individual churches are seeing their doctrinal errors and turning away from them to true Biblical Christianity? Are there particular states or cities where people are coming out and/or changing their fellowship's beliefs?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have relatives who accepted Christ as Savior in the mid 70's. Their lives and personalities started to change positively. They then became involved in the local church, which they are still involved in, and they became distant from the family, somewhat argumentative and critical. One of the members seemed to be coming out of lifelong depression after first becoming a Christian - appearing happy, until they started with the local church. Now, after almost 40 yrs in that cult, depression and withdrawal seems to characterize the personality.

I have frequently prayed for the cult's deliverance from deception. I'm wondering if anyone knows whether the local church is increasing or decreasing in numbers. Also, does anyone know if perhaps individual churches are seeing their doctrinal errors and turning away from them to true Biblical Christianity? Are there particular states or cities where people are coming out and/or changing their fellowship's beliefs?

I first contacted brothers in the Local Church over 40 years ago while working at an optical factory in downtown Cleveland on Prospect Avenue. I saw their love and joy in the Lord Jesus. Their testimony of salvation shook up that little eyeglass factory for God. I would have to testify that their love for Jesus Christ was no different than that of the first century believers. They placed Christ as first in their hearts. It was clearly evident for all to see.

Slowly, almost imperceptibly, Local Church leaders changed that environment. As the Apostle Paul so clearly warned us with tears in Acts 20.30, "and from among you yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverted things, to draw away the disciples after themselves."

Things have changed since those early days. What the Apostle Paul warned us about has happened again. Happened in the Local Churches in the 20th century. Leaders in the Local Churches rose up and drew our love and attention away from the Lord Jesus to themselves, speaking perverted things, and, in a nutshell, that was the history of Witness Lee in the Local Churches.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I'm wondering if anyone knows whether the local church is increasing or decreasing in numbers.

This might not be the place to get an answer. Most of the posters here have not been meeting with the local church for a while.

Also, does anyone know if perhaps individual churches are seeing their doctrinal errors and turning away from them to true Biblical Christianity?

Doubtful. The whole system is built on a perfect ideal, so how can they change?

Let me give you a case study. A disabled brother on pension moved about 40 miles outside the city where housing is cheap. I periodically call him. He bemoans the fact that "the saints" have abandoned him, don't visit him, etc. I ask why not visit with some of the Christians near him? No, he replies; "I am absolute". This man won't have anything to do with "Christianity" because he is completely sold out for the local church, and the local church won't have anything to do with him because they don't consider him "good building material".

So in spite of the fact that the only evident fruit of Lee's ministry is to cut people apart, they won't change, because "they are absolute".

Are there particular states or cities where people are coming out and/or changing their fellowship's beliefs?

Two areas where people have "come out" somewhat are the Midwest (Ohio, Pennsylvania, Indiana, Ontario etc), and Brazil. But most of them have not changed their beliefs and practices very much. They are just practicing local church beliefs and customs apart from their original source, Witness Lee's Living Stream Ministry.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by aron

Let me give you a case study. A disabled brother on pension moved about 40 miles outside the city where housing is cheap. I periodically call him. He bemoans the fact that "the saints" have abandoned him, don't visit him, etc. I ask why not visit with some of the Christians near him? No, he replies; "I am absolute". This man won't have anything to do with "Christianity" because he is completely sold out for the local church, and the local church won't have anything to do with him because they don't consider him "good building material".

This reminds me of a personal experience. Please know, I say this with love and respect for my dad- but he was taught this “good building material” mindset it seems...

It was pretty common for saints to live close to the meeting hall, that way fellowship was easier- makes sense! There was a certain brother though (really admire him and his wife) who decided to build a big house in the country, almost an hr away from the meeting hall. They built it themselves and I’m sure saved a lot of money by doing it that way! I remember my dad was (sadly) very critical of this. He didn’t think it was “good for the church.”

The interesting thing though is that house turned into YP central for probably decades now. We just caravaned out to the country for Saturday YP meetings. They built zip lines in their backyard, a rock climbing wall, had bon fires, even a pool table. Aside from all the forced participation stuff, I have some really great memories in that home. Also, a lot of the saints were married there and it was a little
more fun than the typical “wedding meeting.”

Just goes to show the blessings that can happen when you listen to the Lord instead of the elders, who might mean well- it’s just not their place. I’m not implying there’s not a need for elders or leading ones but ultimately- it’s not their place to tell anyone what to do and definitely not their place to judge you or condemn you for a decision you make that they don’t agree with. Unfortunately, what I saw growing up was people just going with the flow of everyone around them, which results in a lot of people dressing the same, talking with the same intonations/verbage, even decorating their home the same. I’m sure anyone who ever spent time in the LC could accurately describe the way many of their homes look! Put all the LSM books on display, a few pics are ok, not too much, framed versus on the wall, simple, no personality allowed, ha! Sorry, I’m kind of teasing them- I don’t care, it’s just funny to me.

Sorry to change the topic here, was glad to be reminded of this though after reading this thread

[alwayscurious]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

This reminds me of a personal experience. Please know, I say this with love and respect for my dad- but he was taught this “good building material” mindset it seems...

It was pretty common for saints to live close to the meeting hall, that way fellowship was easier- makes sense! There was a certain brother though (really admire him and his wife) who decided to build a big house in the country, almost an hr away from the meeting hall. They built it themselves and I’m sure saved a lot of money by doing it that way! I remember my dad was (sadly) very critical of this. He didn’t think it was “good for the church.”

The interesting thing though is that house turned into YP central for probably decades now. We just caravaned out to the country for Saturday YP meetings. They built zip lines in their backyard, a rock climbing wall, had bon fires, even a pool table. Aside from all the forced participation stuff, I have some really great memories in that home. Also, a lot of the saints were married there and it was a little
more fun than the typical “wedding meeting.”

Just goes to show the blessings that can happen when you listen to the Lord instead of the elders, who might mean well- it’s just not their place. I’m not implying there’s not a need for elders or leading ones but ultimately- it’s not their place to tell anyone what to do and definitely not their place to judge you or condemn you for a decision you make that they don’t agree with. Unfortunately, what I saw growing up was people just going with the flow of everyone around them, which results in a lot of people dressing the same, talking with the same intonations/verbage, even decorating their home the same. I’m sure anyone who ever spent time in the LC could accurately describe the way many of their homes look! Put all the LSM books on display, a few pics are ok, not too much, framed versus on the wall, simple, no personality allowed, ha! Sorry, I’m kind of teasing them- I don’t care, it’s just funny to me.

Sorry to change the topic here, was glad to be reminded of this though after reading this thread

I know I'm replying to this a couple of years late but yes, this was always my question when I went to other saints' home. Not that this is a bad thing per-say, but I always did feel a bit "weirded out" or a bit like everyone was trying to do the same in each of their homes.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have relatives who accepted Christ as Savior in the mid 70's. Their lives and personalities started to change positively. They then became involved in the local church, which they are still involved in, and they became distant from the family, somewhat argumentative and critical.

The attitude they adopted after joining the LC system in the 1970s is a result of Witness Lee's attitude, teachings and practices namely:

1. Be "sold out" and "absolute" for the/his church to the detriment and damage of family relationships.

2. We are God's best - the only true legitimate church and all other Christians are spiritually bankrupt and blind. We have all the riches and light and they have nothing.

Sadly like so many your relatives drank the kool-aid and in the late 1980s what existed all along became more boldly manifest i.e. Witness Lee is God's one divine oracle on the earth, the Minister of the Age, etc.

After he died he left behind coworkers who could by rote repeat his messages. His writings became an authoritative text for those in the LC system with a status at or above the Bible itself.

In 2006 a big division occurred between Titus Chu and his coworkers and the coworkers in HQed in Anaheim. What was the division about? Witness Lee of of course - who BTW had already been dead for 9+ years! Those based in Anaheim excommunicated Titus because they disagreed with his interpretation and representation not of the Bible but of Witness Lee. Later a similar division took place in Brazil. For the most part they are all still basically the same.

Truth be told they threw away the "Local Church" idea a long time ago. For all intent and purposes they are the Witness Lee Church and will continue to be so for the forseeable future. Too bad they didn't call it that back in the 1970s. If they did I'm sure your relatives would have at least had second thoughts about joining or more likely have run in the opposite direction!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

The attitude they adopted after joining the LC system in the 1970s is a result of Witness Lee's attitude, teachings and practices namely:

1. Be "sold out" and "absolute" for the/his church to the detriment and damage of family relationships.

2. We are God's best - the only true legitimate church and all other Christians are spiritually bankrupt and blind. We have all the riches and light and they have nothing.

After he died he left behind coworkers who could by rote repeat his messages. His writings became an authoritative text for those in the LC system with a status at or above the Bible itself.

Truth be told they threw away the "Local Church" idea a long time ago. For all intent and purposes they are the Witness Lee Church and will continue to be so for the forseeable future.

Making some solid points alwayslearning. When a church is tailored towards a specific ministry, how can you call it anything but a ministry church? The mode of receiving becomes narrower than God's receiving, because the ministry is narrow.
Sure you can say the ministry is for the edification and for the building up. True, there is a building up. Yet, what is the composition of the building?

True, the ministry has helped and is helping many believers. Yet the ministry is not comprehensive as the Word of God is comprehensive. The ministry is according to what is profitable. If there's portions of the Word of God that is not profitable for the ministry, it is summarily passed over.

However if you want to exclude brothers and sisters because they raise points that are negative, just examine the Word of God. Specifically read the geneology of Jesus in Matthew 1. There alone are very negative situations.

Thank you everyone for your replies, information and encouragement.

I was in the LC from '70-'80. I now live on the other coast from where I attended. I have kept up on issues, and have just wondered, what is the church like now? About ten years ago I went to my local LC. I walked in to the meeting hall, built for hundreds like Anaheim, but only about 50 sat in a circle. When I sat, two brothers, whom I later discovered were elders, sat next to me, one on each side. I felt like I was going into a besieged city, and the occupants were readying the boiling oil and raising the drawbridge. What a difference from the joy I remember towards the Lord, and the love feasts where we shared a meal and then rejoiced in the Lord. I felt like I was treated as an invader. However I think each LC unit has individual responses. I've gone back to where I was a member. Even though I told some of them I worshipped elsewhere, I was received warmly, and am still in contact. Others assumed I was still in the LC said to say hello to those in my city, and were surprised I am in 'Christianity". Pray for those in the LC. I remember many who had a heart for the Lord, but were led astray into only accepting the LC way as the only one.
In Christ, JK

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I was in the LC from '70-'80.

Me to Jk. Left while in the c. in Ft. Lauderdale, under -- and I mean under -- Mel Porter. A very far cry from Kangas in the c. in Detroit. And even a further cry from the c. in Santa Cruz (my fondest days in the LC).

From time to time, over the years, I have checked back with the local church. To see if they've changed. After discovering these local church forums, and hearing from so many other exLCers, stories that make your eyes bug out, I found that they got much worse after I left.

I guess I was holding them up and when I left they all fell down ... ha ha

Bro JK, you should consider joining the forum. We could use a fresh mind out here. And I love to hear more from you.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

About ten years ago I went to my local LC. I walked in to the meeting hall, built for hundreds like Anaheim, but only about 50 sat in a circle. When I sat, two brothers, whom I later discovered were elders, sat next to me, one on each side. I felt like I was going into a besieged city, and the occupants were readying the boiling oil and raising the drawbridge. What a difference from the joy I remember towards the Lord, and the love feasts where we shared a meal and then rejoiced in the Lord. I felt like I was treated as an invader.

I don't see anything positive and noteworthy happening in the LC these days. The early days were long before my time, but by every account, it sounds like new people were coming in all the time, people were happy and it was a completely different environment. I have noticed that they treat newcomers with a bit of suspicion. Those who ask to many questions or challenge teachings/practices are not worth spending any time on. So they want the "low information" types. Those who will swallow anything they're told.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Others assumed I was still in the LC said to say hello to those in my city, and were surprised I am in 'Christianity".

This is common when you're in different cities. This was my experience also myself and others I knew from previous localities. It's not until the question comes is there the realization brother and sister so and so left many years ago, but they've never changed. Local church or no Local Church, they're still the same couple.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have relatives who accepted Christ as Savior in the mid 70's. Their lives and personalities started to change positively. They then became involved in the local church, which they are still involved in, and they became distant from the family, somewhat argumentative and critical. One of the members seemed to be coming out of lifelong depression after first becoming a Christian - appearing happy, until they started with the local church. Now, after almost 40 yrs in that cult, depression and withdrawal seems to characterize the personality.

Do not despair. We are living in the last days and everyone's eyes will open to the Glory and Praise of our Savior sooner than later. It is the Holy Spirit Who drew us to the Lord Jesus, Who is constantly filling us with His Love, His Truth, His Life. No matter how loyal people are to Witness Lee, The Spirit of God will open their eyes and their hearts to repent and cry out to Jesus as Lord and Savior.

When people desperately want to be set free and healed, The Lord will answer and deliver them.

I have frequently prayed for the cult's deliverance from deception.

Keep praying for the LORD to draw your family to Himself, to watch over them, to fill them with His Love, to cover them with His Precious Blood and to protect them from all weapons formed against them.

You will be rewarded for your prayers.

I'm wondering if anyone knows whether the local church is increasing or decreasing in numbers. Also, does anyone know if perhaps individual churches are seeing their doctrinal errors and turning away from them to true Biblical Christianity? Are there particular states or cities where people are coming out and/or changing their fellowship's beliefs?

Of the people I have been in contact with who have been in the LC "forever", many of the children (who are adults now) no longer are in the LC. Some have civil relationships with their parents. Others have nothing do do with them and it goes both ways. Some LCrs practically have disowned their kids and some kids have practically disowned their parents.

I pray for the restoration and Bonding Love in families and friends.

Blessings,
Carol G