Experiences in South Florida Around 1980

[awareness]

I knew Dale Jackson from the time he came into the LC in the church in Detroit. I have zero fondness for Dale Jackson. It was stockmarket money that propelled him to the top in the local church, that, and his blind loyalty to the local church authority ; Mel Porter and Witness Lee.

When I was in the process of being excommunicated by Mel Porter it was Dale Jackson that stood up in a fanatical meeting and accused me of poisoning a couple my wife and I had had lunch with earlier in the day ; an outright lie.

Beside being told by Mel that if I were to go on in the church I'd have to, "take his personality as my personality, and, if I needed to blow my nose I had to ask him which side first," Mel also told me I had to stand up and confess my sin of rejection of Witness Lee's apostleship in a meeting. When I said Dale Jackson had to also admit in a meeting that he told a lie about me, Mel said "no, Dale doesn't have to confess anything."

So as far as I'm concerned Dale Jackson is a chump, and deserves is name to be dragged out in public. The fact that he's still in the LC speaks volumes about him, and his lack of sound mind.

If his kids are in the LC I feel sorry for them.

[Ohio]

awareness, he probably is a dear brother, but the Recovery demands an allegiance to man, in the name of oneness, which oftentimes forces brothers to "bear false witness" against other brothers in their attempt to maintain a good standing in the program.

I also have been betrayed by a brother who was forced to save his own neck by providing mine. I have found that the best way to be released from this bitter event to to forgive them.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

awareness, he probably is a dear brother, but the Recovery demands an allegiance to man, in the name of oneness, which oftentimes forces brothers to "bear false witness" against other brothers in their attempt to maintain a good standing in the program.

I also have been betrayed by a brother who was forced to save his own neck by providing mine. I have found that the best way to be released from this bitter event to to forgive them.

Well it doesn't really matter if I forgive him or not. I would do so if I saw any sign that he repented. But given he's in leadership roles in the LC, and is still propagating the fanaticism and delusions of the LC system it's clear there's been no repentance.

I would, however, like to shake his hand and thank him for his part in bouncing me out of the LC. God worked it out for good, as far as I'm concerned.

And bro Ohio, I'm sorry you had to go thru something similar.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well it doesn't really matter if I forgive him or not. I would do so if I saw any sign that he repented. But given he's in leadership roles in the LC, and is still propagating the fanaticism and delusions of the LC system it's clear there's been no repentance.

I would, however, like to shake his hand and thank him for his part in bouncing me out of the LC. God worked it out for good, as far as I'm concerned.

And bro Ohio, I'm sorry you had to go thru something similar.

The Recovery became diseased with the sickness of man-pleasing long ago. Many have traded long-term friendships for for a few loyalty perks. Most of them don't have a clue what they have done, thinking that they were just protecting the "testimony of our Lord" and her "faithful servants."

Yes, they did serve to help you depart, but the bitterness we experienced can eat at us if we do not forgive them from the heart as the Lord has forgiven us. If we don't forgive, then we become enslaved to the poison of betrayal, like a Judas' kiss, which can eat at us for decades. The Lord has instructed us to willingly forgive as He has, and allow Him to deal with His children as He desires, as He has said, "vengeance is Mine, I will repay." Ours, however, is to love, as He has loved us and proved how much He loved us by opening up His arms to us on the cross.

[awareness]

Thanks bro Ohio for your kind, considerate, and wise words ...

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Recovery became diseased with the sickness of man-pleasing long ago. Many have traded long-term friendships for for a few loyalty perks. Most of them don't have a clue what they have done, thinking that they were just protecting the "testimony of our Lord" and her "faithful servants."

Sounds like the Roman Catholic Church, and their reasoning's for covering up the pedophile priests. And like a local conservative Southern Baptist church here, who's preacher got caught and confessed to stealing from church members, and raping a single sister. Did they call local authorities? No, they fired him and sent him on his way with, a letter of good recommendation.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yes, they did serve to help you depart, but the bitterness we experienced can eat at us if we do not forgive them from the heart as the Lord has forgiven us. If we don't forgive, then we become enslaved to the poison of betrayal, like a Judas' kiss, which can eat at us for decades.

Everyone I know that has left the local church admits that the LC had a lasting effect upon their lives -- most negative -- that it permanently "bent the tree." And that is true for both, those that forgive, and those that don't

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Lord has instructed us to willingly forgive as He has, and allow Him to deal with His children as He desires, as He has said, "vengeance is Mine, I will repay." Ours, however, is to love, as He has loved us and proved how much He loved us by opening up His arms to us on the cross.

Doesn't Jesus love way more than we are capable? Would he really seek vengeance over such a minor matter?

I'm a victim of the LC ... and so are you. But the real victims are those still in the LC, and especially the leaders, like Dale Jackson, Ron Kangas, et al (and their kids). We should pity them. Delusion may not be as bad as schizophrenia, that disables the afflicted from living a normal life ... but on second thought, maybe it is. What's normal about the local church of Witness Lee? Could the Blended Brothers ever be considered normal?

Forgiving them is good ... but it's impossible to keep up with ... as they don't stop needing forgiveness. They need more than forgiveness. They need to wake up from the local church spell and delusions.

[Plenteous]

Awareness, no one in my family has ever lived in Detroit. So, your assertion that you knew my father "from the time he came into the LC in the church in Detroit" is nonsense, and casts doubt on all your other recollections.

Second, even if events occurred as you describe, a person's assertion that you "poisoned a couple" is not an "outright lie;" it is a subjective characterization.

Your attitude is disgusting--calling my father a "chump" and saying that he "deserves his name to be dragged out in public." You may disagree with his views regarding Witness Lee, but my father is a quiet man and a man of high integrity.

Lastly, my brother and I do not need your pity. Everyone in my family is doing well. You, on the other hand, are ranting and raving on an internet forum about comments alleged from 30+ years ago.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Plenteous

Second, even if events occurred as you describe, a person's assertion that you "poisoned a couple" is not an "outright lie;" it is a subjective characterization.

I really don't know the circumstances surrounding these events, but I did think it was interesting that what one person calls an "outright lie," another labels a "subjective characterization." Can someone parse out the finer nuances for me?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Plenteous

Awareness, no one in my family has ever lived in Detroit. So, your assertion that you knew my father "from the time he came into the LC in the church in Detroit" is nonsense, and casts doubt on all your other recollections.

Second, even if events occurred as you describe, a person's assertion that you "poisoned a couple" is not an "outright lie;" it is a subjective characterization.

Your attitude is disgusting--calling my father a "chump" and saying that he "deserves his name to be dragged out in public." You may disagree with his views regarding Witness Lee, but my father is a quiet man and a man of high integrity.

Lastly, my brother and I do not need your pity. Everyone in my family is doing well. You, on the other hand, are ranting and raving on an internet forum about comments alleged from 30+ years ago.

Dear Plenteous,

Though I appreciate and respect your instinct to defend your dear father from public accusation, I feel you have zero sympathy for the pain awareness was put through by the inexcusable disciplinary practices of the Local Church movement. This is typical of LC loyalists. They don't give a whit about the pain the movement has caused. That's a sign of fanaticism.

You and I both know what "poisoning" meant in the LC movement. It meant saying something negative about Witness Lee or his teachings. In other words, "poisoning" was to verbally resist the brain-washing of this movement in oneself and others. Calling speaking against Witness Lee "poisoning" is not a subjective characterization--it's a fanatical characterization. Only someone seriously lacking in the ability to engage in balanced, independent thought would put such a thing in such terms.

I don't approve of awaresness' caustic words and I feel he needs to let things go and move on. Life is too short. But your clear lack of sympathy for the suffering this man whom Christ died for was put through confirms what I already know about the LC movement. It was about sacrificing many people for one man's vision, and awareness was one of those thrown under the bus for Witness Lee's sake.

[Plenteous]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Dear Plenteous,

Though I appreciate and respect your instinct to defend your dear father from public accusation, I feel you have zero sympathy for the pain awareness was put through by the inexcusable disciplinary practices of the Local Church movement. This is typical of LC loyalists. They don't give a whit about the pain the movement has caused. That's a sign of fanaticism.

You and I both know what "poisoning" meant in the LC movement. It meant saying something negative about Witness Lee or his teachings. In other words, "poisoning" was to verbally resist the brain-washing of this movement in oneself and others. Calling speaking against Witness Lee "poisoning" is not a subjective characterization--it's a fanatical characterization. Only someone seriously lacking in the ability to engage in balanced, independent thought would put such a thing in such terms.

I don't approve of awaresness' caustic words and I feel he needs to let things go and move on. Life is too short. But your clear lack of sympathy for the suffering this man who Christ died for was put through confirms what I already know about the LC movement. It was about sacrificing many people for one man's vision, and awareness was one of those thrown under the bus for Witness Lee's sake.

Igzy, Awareness is old enough to be my father (at least). I am a young man. It is difficult for me to respond graciously to someone who would recklessly post this kind of venom:

So as far as I'm concerned Dale Jackson is a chump, and deserves is name to be dragged out in public. The fact that he's still in the LC speaks volumes about him, and his lack of sound mind.

If his kids are in the LC I feel sorry for them.

Please read that again.

In a later post, he compares me and my father to schizophrenics. No one invited these vicious attacks. Now, you have said that I, and/or my father, are brain-washed and fanatical and unable to "engage in balanced, independent thought."

All of this is based on Awareness' uncorroborated account of a meeting decades ago.

How am I expected to respond?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Plenteous

Igzy, Awareness is old enough to be my father (at least). I am a young man. It is difficult for me to respond graciously to someone who would recklessly post this kind of venom:



Please read that again.

In a later post, he compares me and my father to schizophrenics. No one invited these vicious attacks. Now, you have said that I, and/or my father, are brain-washed and fanatical and unable to "engage in balanced, independent thought."

All of this is based on Awareness' uncorroborated account of a meeting decades ago.

How am I expected to respond?

Dear Plenteous,

This is far from the only story I've heard about these kinds of practices. It sounds just like many others I'm heard of, many from first hand reports, and some I've observed myself. The LC engaged in fanatical disciplinary practices which caused serious psychological damage to many.

Although I cringe at and have learned to filter awareness' hyperbole, I don't doubt for a minute that he was abused along the lines he describes. He's either completely crazy or something serious happened to him.

When I say fanatical I mean having a set of values which cause otherwise decent people to do things that are not reasonable. It is not reasonable to consider speaking against Witness Lee as "poisoning." Why put things in such inflammatory, one-sided terms?

I don't have any reason to doubt that you and your father are generally good people and Christians. But the fact is the LC movement made fanatics of us all. It made us do things to people in Christ's name that someday we will be ashamed of in His presence. Though your father may be a good man in many ways, you may have to deal with the fact that he took part in these sorts of things as well.

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Dear Plenteous,

This is far from the only story I've heard about these kinds of practices. It sounds just like many others I'm heard of, many from first hand reports, and some I've observed myself. The LC engaged in fanatical disciplinary practices which caused serious psychological damage to many.

Although I cringe at and have learned to filter awareness' hyperbole, I don't doubt for a minute that he was abused along the lines he describes. He's either completely crazy or something serious happened to him.

When I say fanatical I mean having a set of values which cause otherwise decent people to do things that are not reasonable. It is not reasonable to consider speaking against Witness Lee as "poisoning." Why put things in such inflammatory, one-sided terms?

I don't have any reason to doubt that you and your father are generally good people and Christians. But the fact is the LC movement made fanatics of us all. It made us do things to people in Christ's name that someday we will be ashamed of in His presence. Though your father may be a good man in many ways, you may have to deal with the fact that he took part in these sorts of things as well.

Igzy,

This is a very personal thread that is connected to very specific persons and very specific events.

I can personally attest that an attack on a SPECIFIC man to make an otherwise true GENERAL point about the LC is a very specious approach.

Make the broad points about the LC abuses on another thread.

So far, on this thread, I see awareness being very accusatory and defamatory toward Dale Jackson. There has not been a vetting of the truth of his assertions. The only thing we have is Dale's brother claiming he is wrong and the thread-author (MicahG) agreeing with him. That puts awareness in the hot seat, not Dale Jackson.

Plenteous was not defending the LC writ large. He was defending his brother. That doesn't mean he agrees with the LC abuses you are arguing against. Just because "these practices" (as you say) occurred, even routinely, in the LC, does not mean that Dale Jackson engaged in them.. You know better.

Peter

P.S. This is not a defense of Dale Jackson. But the point is, there has been NO DISCUSSION OF FACTS. What I see is one man's account and other's agreeing simply because similar events may have happened elsewhere. That's shady, in my opinion.

P.P.S. Awareness: I don't know how to discuss the things you have experienced. My comments here are not meant as a slight to you or the things you have experienced. I know full well the kind of abuse men have suffered in the midst of men-pleasing-group-think. I don't doubt your experience at all. But we do have a conflict of accounts. I've read enough of your posts to know that you get that means another look and some objectivity is necessary.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Plenteous

Awareness, no one in my family has ever lived in Detroit. So, your assertion that you knew my father "from the time he came into the LC in the church in Detroit" is nonsense, and casts doubt on all your other recollections.

Second, even if events occurred as you describe, a person's assertion that you "poisoned a couple" is not an "outright lie;" it is a subjective characterization.

Your attitude is disgusting--calling my father a "chump" and saying that he "deserves his name to be dragged out in public." You may disagree with his views regarding Witness Lee, but my father is a quiet man and a man of high integrity.

Lastly, my brother and I do not need your pity. Everyone in my family is doing well. You, on the other hand, are ranting and raving on an internet forum about comments alleged from 30+ years ago.

Well now, maybe we're talking about two different Dale Jackson's. The Dale I knew worked for Asplundh Tree in Detroit, and for Doyle Young's tree service in Ft. Lauderdale. You could ask Ron Kangas, he was lead elder in Detroit. A dear friend of mine, known out here as Hosepipe, was a close friend of Dale in Ft. Lauderdale, and talked him into applying at an opening at a stock brokerage, cuz Dale was gifted with numbers. That was the best advice for Dale financially. All this was before you were born.

Look, I really liked Dale, in Detroit and in Ft. Lauderdale, until he drank the kool-aid in the LC and changed for the worse. But perhaps it's not Dale's fault. Mel Porter, the lead elder back then, was using brothers as spy's. And he was using 14 brothers to seed the meetings so they would go his way. So much for Spirit led meetings. All this done in secret. And Dale may have fallen for Mel's dirty tricks.

In the end, no matter what Dale said or did, it all goes back to Mel Porter. He was the one brewing the kool-aid in the church in Ft. Lauderdale ; mixing with the real kool-aid brewed by Witness Lee.

Originally Posted by Plenteous

You, on the other hand, are ranting and raving on an internet forum about comments alleged from 30+ years ago.

And there goes another lie we were told in the LC, that, if we left the local church God would strike us dead. I know lots that left the LC back in those days. None of them that I know personally have died.

And Plenteous, sorry if I've bashed your father. To be honest what Dale said about me was a minor concern compared to the meeting he spoke it in. After Dale said what he said Mel Porter stood up and said : "There are those among us that are trying to destroy Witness Lee's works. You know who you are. You have one week to stand up in a meeting and confess your sins, or you will be excommunicated. If you are not for us then get out." Then he pumped his fist in the air and chanted "If you are not for us then get out" ... repeating it until the whole meeting joined him in pumping fists and chanting "if you're not for us get out" over and over again. It was insane.

And for the first time in 10 years I saw that I was in a cult. And within a week Mel told me that if I was to go on the the church I had to take his personality as my own, and if I wanted to blow my nose I had to ask him which side first. And that was it. The final straw. It was clear to me that the local church was/is a cult. I had to get out.

And Plenteous, it doesn't matter if you believe me or not. You have your own cognitive dissonance to deal with.

[Cal]

Plenteous,

I don't know the total history of your father, but I do know that if he was as decent as you claim he would have had severe reservations about the Local Church movement. Either that, or he remained ignorant about what was really going on in it.

Either way, I truly hope for your sake that there are two Dale Jacksons. In that case, it's simply an unfortunate misunderstanding and you can move on, knowing that there is still the possibility your father was not abusive, even though there was never a doubt he signed onto a movement that is.

[awareness]

Plenteous, we're not talking about two different Dale Jackson's. The problem is me and my bad memory.

Since being questioned about Dale and Detroit I've been racking my brain. I even talked to a brother and sister that were in the C of Detroit and they couldn't help me sort it out. Hosepipe told me he didn't think Dale came from Detroit ... but couldn't be certain.

During all this mental activity I took a nap. I awoke like my memory had been flashed during sleep.

And I was wrong about Dale and Detroit. The brother I was thinking of was Dennis (can't give last name - he was never an elder). He worked for Asplundh Tree Service in Detroit, and transferred when the C in Detroit, under orders from On High-headquarters-Witness Lee, migrated to Ft. Lauderdale. In Ft. Lauderdale, he left Asplundh and worked a crew for Doyle Young's Tree Service. I think that's where my wires got crossed, cuz both Dennis and Dale worked for Doyle.

Other memories came back too. Like Dale was the son of a Baptist preacher, and had a preachers' sounding voice.

So I apologize to brother Plenteous for that error.

And I apologize also for being so rough on Dale. We were all young and dumb back then. And did stupid things. It's like we were in the dark looking for the light switch and were told Witness Lee was the switch ... and we went all freaky and irrational about it. I know I did, well, as long as I believed that I was in God's move on the earth. Mel Porter made it obvious that I was actually in man's movement on the earth, dressed to appear as God.

And I do feel sorry for those still in the LC -- like I feel sorry for those in Scientology -- especially the leaders ... and especially for what use to be my good friend Ron Kangas. I really loved him. Why he became the brewer of the kool-aid is beyond my understanding. I can't even put it together in my imagination. It's like Kangas lost all his intelligence. And he's smart, or was.

But that's because God blessed me by forcing it in my face, with that fanatical excommunication meeting, and ridiculous stipulation made by Mel Porter (Mel never had any sense anyway - and wasn't an elder because he was smart or spiritually mature. He was an elder because he was blindly loyal to Lee & Co... that was clearly the requirement for Lee to elect you as an elder.)

So I saw unambiguously, with no shadows, that the local church was/is a cult. Actually all that I know that left the LC, best friends still today, have no doubt that they were in a cult, and openly admit it. Some, like me, as a result, have an obsession with cults. I've read about many of them ... and continue to do so today. Cults usurp critical thinking, and self determination and personal responsibly ... putting it on the group and leader. They produce a mental disorder, such as we see in Tom Cruse. I was mental back then. One of my dear friends had to leave the local church to keep his sanity. He was literally going crazy ... but had sense enough to stop drinking the kool-aid ... and sober up.

Ya can't be sober in the LC. You can only pretend to be sober. Kangas was a gifted pretender, and learned the value of feigning sincerity. Can't you see it in his body language, and hear it in his voice. It's there. His wife saw thru it, even back in Detroit.

Oh, it's not obvious while drunk on the kool-aid.

[Cal]

So awareness, just so we're all clear. Now that you've refreshed your memory, what exactly did Dale Jackson do to you specifically that you consider abusive? (Here I siding with Peter, asking for more facts.)

[zeek]

You, on the other hand, are ranting and raving on an internet forum about comments alleged from 30+ years ago.

Existential disappointment can do that to a person.

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by zeek

Existential disappointment can do that to a person.

That's about the most concise yet true thing I've heard in a while.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

That's about the most concise yet true thing I've heard in a while.

Yes, I agree. To be honest with everyone I know that was once in the local church, including my self, the local church experience permanently "bent our tree."

[zeek]

I made a correction to the previous post regarding Mr. Jackson. I do not know for a fact that Porter instructed Jackson to accuse Awareness. It just seemed as if they were colluding together at the time. Mel already had a group of young brother coordinating behind the scenes to direct the "flow" of the meetings. Jackson, although technically an "elder" was clearly subservient to Porter as long as Porter remained in Miami. I don't know how they could have known what Awareness said to the couple he supposedly had "poisoned" since they weren't present unless the couple informed them. Any way they were violating the ground of oneness since they made participation contingent on acceptance of Witness Lee as the apostle of the age. It was his refusal to accept that claim that got Awareness blacklisted.

[MicahG]

All I wanted was to contact this brother. I am sorry the thread broke out into this controversy. I hesitate to make further remarks but I think it is needed based on the direction this thread has taken. Based on his account I believe I know who awareness is. In those days in Ft Lauderdale he was as rude and troublesome as he is here. His perspective is very skewed. I will not say more than that specifically because I don't think any of this mudslinging is appropriate, but all of you should be cautious before embracing his rhetoric. You do not know the facts.

Actually, since this thread served my original purpose to get in contact with the family, I would rather the thread be deleted now. I don't know if I can do that.

Regarding Mel Porter, Mel was a very authoritarian and controlling brother in Ft. Lauderdale and Miami. That is true. However, he was removed from Miami because of the the saints suffering under this behavior and it was Dale Jackson that helped the saints during that time. The way awareness has painted Dale is really ridiculous if you knew him personally. Dale was always a very mild-mannered and lovely brother and cared for a lot of people in a very genuine way.

[Plenteous]

One last thing--you seem to be missing the point about "subjective characterization." An "outright lie" means that someone willfully said something he knew to be a falsehood in order to deceive people. Saying that someone "poisoned" someone else, whatever you think of the terminology, is not an "outright lie." It is someone's interpretation. I could say that Awareness slandered my father, and he might say that's an "outright lie" because he thinks he's right. Yet, that doesn't mean it so. I could also say that Awareness told an "outright lie" when he said he knew my father in Detroit. But, again, that doesn't make it an accurate use of the phrase.

And, I'm not making a comment about "poisoning" because it's not even relevant to my point. Saying, "Note that he chose not deny that awareness was accused of poisoning" is a red herring. I didn't deny it because I wasn't there, not because I want to make a "classic LC rationalization."

Please be more careful.

[zeek]

I knew Dale Jackson from the time he came into the LC in the church in Detroit. I have zero fondness for Dale Jackson. It was stockmarket money that propelled him to the top in the local church, that, and his blind loyalty to the local church authority ; Mel Porter and Witness Lee.

I agree with the facts except for the Detroit part. Jackson was not from Detroit according to my memory. Mel Porter advised me in a face to face conversation that "WE need more brothers like Dale who has a knack for making a lot of money."

When I was in the process of being excommunicated by Mel Porter it was Dale Jackson that stood up in a fanatical meeting and accused me of poisoning a couple my wife and I had had lunch with earlier in the day ; an outright lie.

That's right; I was there.

Beside being told by Mel that if I were to go on in the church I'd have to, "take his personality as my personality, and, if I needed to blow my nose I had to ask him which side first," Mel also told me I had to stand up and confess my sin of rejection of Witness Lee's apostleship in a meeting. When I said Dale Jackson had to also admit in a meeting that he told a lie about me, Mel said "no, Dale doesn't have to confess anything."

I was not a party to this conversation.

So as far as I'm concerned Dale Jackson is a chump, and deserves is name to be dragged out in public. The fact that he's still in the LC speaks volumes about him, and his lack of sound mind.

If his kids are in the LC I feel sorry for them.

Apparently you see him as an enemy. Therefore, if you are still following Jesus, you are called to love him.