Good vs. Lee's Trees

[John]

God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.
(Gen 1:31, NASB)

Quite soon after becoming a Christian, I became a member of Witness Lee’s Local Church. After spending 20 years in the group, being indoctrinated by him and his leaders, I came to the conclusion that I was in a religious system virtually bereft of the Spirit, and that I felt just about spiritually dead myself … so, I left.

Lately, after being out for almost 25 years, I have been considering in more depth what I learned from Lee through his Living Stream Ministry. I have wanted to find out what foundational ideas about the Bible that I might still hold, maybe almost unconsciously, that are wrong and that I had accepted from Lee unwittingly. (In the Local Church, we were encouraged not to think, not to use our minds.)


The trees of Lee in the midst of us

One of Lee’s over-arching teachings about the Bible is about the two trees in the garden of Eden. It goes something like this: There were two trees in the garden. One was the tree of life, and the other was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The tree of life represents Christ, and the other one, which he called, on occasion, the tree of death, represents Satan. God’s purpose was that mankind was to partake of the tree of life and not the tree of death. Well, mankind failed, ate of the wrong tree, left the garden, and was prevented from returning.

Now, according to Lee, we have been brought back to the place where we can partake of Christ, the tree of life; and, that is what we are supposed to be doing on a regular, if not constant, basis. Conversely, we are to stay away from the other tree, the poisonous tree that consists of knowledge, and of good and evil, and brings death. Witness Lee often preached against dead knowledge and those Christians who would simply study the scriptures to learn. For him and his Living Stream Ministry followers, the whole Bible is mainly about life and death, and we were to only care for life.


Put your mind in gear

As a result of Lee’s teaching on the trees, slogans began to be thrown around in the Local Churches like ones similar to these:

• Don’t care about right and wrong; just care for life.

• I don’t sense life in what you are saying.

• I don’t feel [a sense of life] to help you at this time.

• Get out of your mind; get your spirit in gear.

As an aside, to those who would say, “Get out of your mind; get your spirit in gear,” note the following from The Message:

“So roll up your sleeves, put your mind in gear, be totally ready to receive the gift that's coming when Jesus arrives.” (1 Pet 1:13)

Getting back to the topic, so-called “life” became equated with having wonderful times in Local Church meetings. Nothing else seemed to matter but to get into somewhat of an exuberant state that was referred to as “the enjoyment.” Eventually, I became as one with no moral compass; because, to consider good and evil (right and wrong) was to be in the enemy’s clutches. We were to focus solely on life, which seemed to mean to go along with what was called “the flow,” which was based on what Witness Lee and the leaders were preaching.


What choice do we have?

Witness Lee taught us that we had the same choice as did Adam and Eve. We were not to consider good and evil, right and wrong. We were to forsake knowledge. We were always to choose life and only care for life. This was Lee’s ongoing emphasis. This kind of thinking, I believe, still controls members and many former members of the Local Churches. What about this teaching, though? Is it accurate, according to the Bible, to say that right and wrong, good and evil, are considerations to be avoided by Christians?

Back then, this teaching sounded—dare I say—good. Now that I have thought it through, though, it does not make sense to me. His teaching sounds as if we can be mentally transported back in time to the garden of Eden and given the choice between the two trees, just like Adam and Eve, with the opportunity to just swallow the life one wholeheartedly. Actually, this is not the situation faced by Christians today. In the distant past, Eve and Adam ate of the wrong tree and came to know good and evil. Now, mankind has this knowledge, and there is no going back to a state in which we do not have this knowledge. Yes, we now do have access to Jesus Christ, the One Who is life, and the option to choose Him; but, we are not now able to simply forget about good and evil.


“Not poisoned,” says Barnes

While reading some of Barnes’ Notes on the Bible about Genesis 3:22, I found that he thought that eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil did not poison mankind (as Witness Lee had told us), as if the masticated fruit itself, going into Adam and Eve’s stomachs, could have caused some interaction with their intellects that brought them to know good and evil. Barnes stated, instead, that it was the disobedience itself that caused the knowledge, as in, “Oh no; now I know the guilt and shame of having disobeyed God, which was an evil act on my part.” His commentary may or may not be true; however, I think that it is healthy, for those of us who were immersed solely in incessant indoctrination via Lee, meeting after meeting, to read and consider a contrary view (which is what the Living Stream Ministry does not want any of its captive audience to do).

And another thing, just for argument’s sake, is that the following verse, in the context of Lee’s theology, seems to preclude the two-tree scenario that Lee painted as a choice for us now:

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev 2:7, KJV)

According to Lee, overcomers will receive a special reward in the coming kingdom. If God has already given all of us Christians an opportunity to eat of the tree of life now, as Lee preached from Genesis, why would John in Revelation indicate that eating of the tree of life is to be a reward just for overcomers in the future?

This question, like Barnes’ commentary, is not critical to my presentation, so I have not investigated how it might fit in with some larger theology about eating of the tree of life. What these two observations do bring up are possible flaws in Witness Lee’s teaching. My main point is to relate how Lee misled his followers to be afraid of good works in the pursuit of some nebulous thing he called life.


Taking the good out of God

Moving on with Witness Lee’s teaching, he warned us that a person is capable of doing mere human good without God; so, we shouldn’t be involved in just doing good. In the same way, I could say that a person can be involved in mere human life without God; so, according to Lee’s logic, we shouldn’t just focus on what became known as life in the Local Church as a thing in itself. In addition to that, Jesus said, “There is none good but One, that is, God,” further proving that Witness Lee was incorrect.

Regardless of what you think about the accuracy of Lee’s version of what happened in the garden of Eden, whether or not a person who is merely ethical can do good, and the choice we now have today, the result of his teaching for me (and others, I would assume) is that I was left in a moral vacuum, wondering whether or not some good work I might be contemplating was under the initiation of the Holy Spirit or if I was just simply trying to do a good work. If the latter, then it would actually be a dead work (devoid of the Spirit) and in the same category as the mere dead good works that “poor, degraded Christianity” did (Lee’s label). His teaching caused me to retreat from good works and cloister myself away in Local Church doings, things which were safe, approved, and supposedly in the domain of life.


A biblical accounting

So, what does the Bible really say about good works? I did some searching and came up with the following statistics from the New Testament related to God’s people doing good and right, and not doing evil or wrong:

• 56 passages related to doing good

• 6 passages related to doing right

• 6 passages related to not doing wrong

• (Did not search for the word “evil”)

The following sections contain some of the 68 noted passages as examples of the good we Christians are to do and the right and wrong that we are to avoid.


The Bible tells us to do good works

Note that most of the following New Testament verses do not give a qualification that the good a person does must be in accord with the Spirit or the result of an outflow from Christ as life, or some such. (I did not check the contexts of these verses, so some may have the idea in surrounding verses.) I am not saying that a person does not need to keep in step with the Spirit when doing good; I am simply saying that most of the verses do not mention it. In other words, we Christians are simply told to do good works and that it is important that we do (to the chagrin of Witness Lee and the so-called “Lord’s Recovery.”

These are the biblical instructions that Witness Lee in some sense hid from us by ignoring them. Before you might decide to just sail through these verses without letting them speak to you, doesn’t it make sense, that after listening to hundreds of sermons about life, we should at least read what God wrote to us about good works? With that in mind, here are many really “good” verses from the New Testament:

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: (Rom 2:10, KJV)

10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith. (Gal 6:10, KJV)

28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. (Eph 4:28, KJV)

8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. (Eph 6:8, KJV)

10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; (Col 1:10, KJV)

17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work. (2Th 2:17, KJV)

18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; 19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life. (1Ti 6:18-19, KJV)

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. (2Ti 2:21, KJV)

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, ... 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. (2Ti 3:3, 17, KJV)

8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; ... 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. (Tts 1:8, 16, KJV)

7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, ... 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. (Tts 2: 7, 14, KJV)

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: (Hbr 10:24, KJV)

16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. ... 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. (Hbr 13:16, 21, KJV)

13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. (Jam 3:13, KJV)

17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. (Jam 4:17, KJV)

12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation. (1Pe 2:12, KJV)

11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. 12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil. 13 And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? (1Pe 3:11-13, KJV)

11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God. (3Jo 1:11, KJV)

Now that you have, hopefully, considered the foregoing verses, remember that the book of James was more or less condemned by Witness Lee as off the mark, being, in his opinion, too focused on works rather than life? As you can see by the verses, James was not the only author of New Testament text who wrote about the need for Christians to do good works.

Wouldn’t it have been better if Witness Lee had encouraged us to do good works, as the Bible does, and encouraged us to pray to be in the Spirit when initiating and doing them? For new Christians like me, I think that this kind of encouragement would have had a much better outcome. At the very least, I would have been doing something biblical.


In the “wrong” garlic room

Lee taught us that life was the only important thing and that life would do it all. He not only ignored good works, he steered us away from them by telling us that knowledge and good and evil were on the same satanic tree that we were to avoid.

With Lee’s incessant emphasis on life, we probably hardly noticed this verse:

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. (Hbr 5:14, KJV)

Because we were in Lee’s garlic room for so long, if we did read the verse, we probably didn’t pay it any mind—our senses to discern between good and evil had atrophied to the point that God’s own word could not breach the “life walls” that Lee had built around our minds.

For me, almost everything in the Bible became translated to life by Lee’s voice in my head. I remember having the thought in one meeting in which Lee was asking questions, that every answer was turned by him to be life, that mysterious something that you came to know by experience in meetings. Eventually, I realized that as long as I went to all the meetings and experienced the thing we called life, then I thought that I was fine. This idea, however, does not line up with the Bible, which declares that we are to do good and to learn to distinguish between good and evil.


Right and wrong are important

As I mentioned earlier, it was also stated among us members of the Local Church that we should not be caught up with considerations of what is right and what is wrong. This, of course, became an excuse for leaders to abandon their duty to do the right things in regard to Christ, the members of His body, and society in general. The cloak of “life,” and the belief that forwarding the designs of “the Recovery” was the most important thing, enabled the leaders to set morality and biblical mandates aside.

Because of this mindset, I present the following verses that show that right and wrong are proper considerations for Christians:

13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? (Mat 20:13, KJV)

57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right? (Luk 12:57, KJV)

21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. (Act 8:21, KJV)

10 Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's judgment seat, where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest. (Act 25:10, KJV)

1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. (Eph 6:1, KJV)

25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons. (Col 3:25, KJV)

15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; (2Pe 2:15, KJV)

If life is to be the only way, then why did Peter state that those who walk according to the flesh (v 10) have forsaken the right way (instead of “forsaken the way of life”)? If right and wrong are not to be considered, then why did Paul write to the Colossians that God would punish those who did wrong (instead of those who did not “do life”)?


One final thought

Why do you suppose Witness Lee warned us away from good works (works that the Bible tells us to do) and focused us on a thing he called “life,” a life that was mostly defined as a nice feeling in Local Church meetings, a “life” that indirectly included adherence to the programs of Lee and his leaders, a “life” that was only to be found in his Local Church? One of the reasons might be that Witness Lee had so few good works of his own.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
(Eph 2:10, KJV)

[OBW]

John,

A very good analysis of Lee and his trees.

Almost a year ago, someone spoke concerning the fall in Genesis, and the conclusion, while sounding somewhat different, concluded similarly to yours. The real issue that they pointed to was that it was not that man got something added to him, or that he gained knowledge. Instead, it is more meaningful to state that we changed our allegiance from God to self. We changed our source of right and wrong from what God said to what we reasoned was right or wrong.

The fall was the result of disobedience, not fruit or snakes.

Knowledge is not the problem. Knowledge from our own counsel is.

Right and wrong is not a problem. In fact, right and wrong remain an important thing from the very beginning to the very end. But right and wrong decided by our flawed minds without the counsel of God is very much a problem.

Teaching things like "don’t care about right and wrong; just care for life" is the kind of teaching that Jesus warned against in Matthew 5. It causes many of the least to stumble and it sets aside the command of God in favor of the counsel of a fool.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by John

Why do you suppose Witness Lee warned us away from good works (works that the Bible tells us to do) and focused us on a thing he called “life?"

Personally, I do believe all Christians should pay attention to "life," even as Moses admonished Israel to "choose life." This, to me, indicates the utmost importance we should pay to the things of life, that being the eternal and divine zoe life of God. In other words, we must focus on the unseen because the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are unseen are eternal. Hence, our focus should primarily be on God, Christ, the Spirit, faith, love, hope, etc.

With that introduction, I have asked, and been asked, many times why we spent no time or energy on good works? That's the first question. The second question being, why we were excessively instructed never to pay attention to right and wrong, but only to life? It is now my conclusion, after years of study, that both of these questions expose the self-serving motives at LSM. I consider the answer to the first question to be like a benign cancer, and the answer to the second to be like a malignant cancer.

Why no good works?

In a word, because WL (and other LC leaders) only cared to build his own empire. He could not afford to have devoted members of the LC's out visiting hospitals or prisons, when they could be building up the church -- his church. His endless programs and trainings swept thru the recovery to make sure all our time was fully consumed. Why was it that visiting the sick was a "dead work," but volunteering to build ministry halls was exalted as Levitical service? Why was it that carrying out any personal burden was considered "only doing your own thing," but all "true service" to the Lord must be carried out under the supervision and direction of LSM?

Why no attention to right and wrong?

In a word, to coverup the rottenness and unrighteousness at LSM. The rank and file had to be continually trained never to ask questions or have an opinion. We were always trained to receive only the authorized version of events passed down from LSM. In this manner, all manner of corruption could be kept under wraps, and LSM could maintain their pristine image so necessary for their devoted followers. We were regularly fed a diet of fear and condemnation that kept us "safe and secure" within the confines of the recovery Those who rejected the official version would then be labeled rebels and lepers, and be expelled from the fellowship. Why was it that Philip Lee, by all accounts the godless reprobate who managed LSM, loved the saying, "we don't care for right or wrong, we only care for life?" Why is it that as soon as members learn the truth of past events, long covered up, they are immediately "poisoned" by it and leave?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Personally, I do believe all Christians should pay attention to "life," even as Moses admonished Israel to "choose life." This, to me, indicates the utmost importance we should pay to the things of life, that being the eternal and divine zoe life of God. In other words, we must focus on the unseen because the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are unseen are eternal. Hence, our focus should primarily be on God, Christ, the Spirit, faith, love, hope, etc.

With that introduction, I have asked, and been asked, many times why we spent no time or energy on good works? That's the first question. The second question being, why we were excessively instructed never to pay attention to right and wrong, but only to life? It is now my conclusion, after years of study, that both of these questions expose the self-serving motives at LSM.

I agree with you wholeheartedly....that is when put into proper context. Problem is "life" is given an unhealthy definition.
Life=all things positive
Death=all things negative

Examine the prophets of the Old Testament and they had many negative things to say. Samuel, Nathan, Elijah, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc. In the New Testament we Jesus' ministry. He had many negative things to say. Is this death? Not hardly. Even when there's negative speaking, there's something of life. Something to prick your human spirit. If your human spirit is not touched when Jesus speaks of the Woes in Matthew or the Beatitudes in Luke, I'm at a loss.

[UntoHim]

Thanks John for this thread.

First of all, Witness Lee was quite mistaken to teach that "right and wrong" was versus, or opposite of "life". This was a mistaken theological premise that has caused untold spiritual and psychological damage among the members in the Local Church for many years. To say that God cares more for life than he does for right and wrong shows an absolute ignorance, even despite, for the written Word of God.

The Lord Jesus stated that He is "the way, and the truth, and the life" (Jn 14:6) Witness Lee, who had zero formal training in biblical Greek, talked Ingalls et all into translating the Greek word ἀλήθεια into the English "realty". No other reputable English translation has translated ἀλήθεια into the English word "reality". This reason for this is simple. Because the Greek word ἀλήθεια, in the context that it is used in the New Testament, does not connote reality, at least not in the sense that Lee taught. Rather it connotes TRUTH...truth as opposed to false, or falsehood. Witness Lee didn't like to use the word truth so much as the unbiblical word of reality. Why was that?

You see, "the life" is not opposed to "the truth" at all. In fact you cannot have one without the other. Those who teach such a thing are false teachers. Those who prophecy such a thing are false prophets.

[TLFisher]

To sum up the Tree of Knowledge (of Good and Evil) and the Tree of Life in practice,
LSM/LCM group think translates as the Tree of Life
Any call for truth, righteousness, etc that appears remotely critical of LCM leadership translates as the Tree of Knowledge.

[HERn]

Terry, thanks so much for bringing this thread back up. I had no idea it was here and I've thought a lot about this topic recently. How many other excellent and helpful threads lay buried I wonder?

[awareness]

I have to comment on this nugget:

Originally Posted by John

While reading some of Barnes’ Notes on the Bible about Genesis 3:22, I found that he thought that eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil did not poison mankind (as Witness Lee had told us), as if the masticated fruit itself, going into Adam and Eve’s stomachs, could have caused some interaction with their intellects that brought them to know good and evil. Barnes stated, instead, that it was the disobedience itself that caused the knowledge, as in, “Oh no; now I know the guilt and shame of having disobeyed God, which was an evil act on my part.” His commentary may or may not be true; however, I think that it is healthy, for those of us who were immersed solely in incessant indoctrination via Lee, meeting after meeting, to read and consider a contrary view (which is what the Living Stream Ministry does not want any of its captive audience to do).

We need to nail down what this is, to clearly identify what is actually going on in the LSM local churches.

It is called, and actually is : Cognitive capture.

It is a type of mind control. Getting out of your mind, and into your spirit leaves your mind free to be captured by, in this case, Witness Lee and Company (like a duck fresh out of the egg fixated on the first thing it sees). If it's not cultish, it sure looks like it. Because of the phenomena of cognitive capture happening in the LSM local churches I personally think, for what it's worth, that the LSM local church is undeniably cultish.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by awareness

I have to comment on this nugget:


We need to nail down what this is, to clearly identify what is actually going on in the LSM local churches.

It is called, and actually is : Cognitive capture.

It is a type of mind control. Getting out of your mind, and into your spirit leaves your mind free to be captured by, in this case, Witness Lee and Company (like a duck fresh out of the egg fixated on the first thing it sees). If it's not cultish, it sure looks like it. Because of the phenomena of cognitive capture happening in the LSM local churches I personally think, for what it's worth, that the LSM local church is undeniably cultish.

I would really like to think that Lee didn't have any intention of using a teaching like this (or his other teachings) to control. I'm not convinced that this was the case, however, I wouldn't go as far to make an argument either way. What I can say is that the end result of his teaching was that it became a form a control, as were things like "getting out of your mind". All to often, I've seen these teachings used in a way where one person has power over another to determine what is of the "Tree of Knowledge" or what constitutes being "in the mind".

I'm sure that all the local minion-leaders see this kind of teaching as a easy means to silence the congregation. Like I said, as to whether or not this was the original intention, I don't know. My theory is that many leaders might have picked up on this as an easy way to control the masses. That is really where such a teaching has an impact. If any rational can be silenced as being part of the "Tree of Knowledge", then it is scary what can come of it.

[SpeakersCorner]

The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’”

Personally, I have always appreciated Lee's interpretation and emphasis on the two named trees in Eden. I just don't think he went far enough.

He pointed out, I believe, that Eve added to God's word when she said they weren't even supposed to touch the fruit of the tree of knowledge. That was a great catch. But he didn't emphasize this point adequately. By inference we can conclude that touching the tree of knowledge was fine. In fact, because it was centered in the garden, it was almost mandatory.

The point seems clear: handling knowledge isn't wrong; imbibing on it is. Modern academia, particularly the humanities -- of which I was part -- eats voraciously from this tree. Eating, rather than simply handling, has caused academia to become the ugly thing that it is.

[aron]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Personally, I have always appreciated Lee's interpretation and emphasis on the two named trees in Eden. I just don't think he went far enough.

He pointed out, I believe, that Eve added to God's word when she said they weren't even supposed to touch the fruit of the tree of knowledge. That was a great catch. But he didn't emphasize this point adequately. By inference we can conclude that touching the tree of knowledge was fine. In fact, because it was centered in the garden, it was almost mandatory.

The point seems clear: handling knowledge isn't wrong; imbibing on it is.

Interesting point. It connects also with John's delineation in Revelations of the difference between the nations touching the tree of life, or being healed by its leaves (22:2b), versus eating the fruit, which is new every month (22:2a). Perhaps that's a corollary of sorts to the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We're to have our faculties exercised to discern between good and evil. But to feed on this, i.e. to take our sustenance from it, is not allowed.

Back to the essay at the beginning of the thread. I think that the point is well made that a focus on "life" was made-up as an excuse to avoid noticing the lack of good works. In addition to the verses John quoted, one which has helped me is in the testimony of Peter, regarding the ministry of Jesus. Peter was speaking to the gentiles, and summarizing Jesus' life in a few brief words. Here's how he phrased it: "how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him." (Acts 10:38) The fact that Jesus "went around doing good" made such an impression on Peter shouldn't be lightly dismissed. And WL's stressing of "life" essentially allowed him to do just that.

Additionally, "we don't care for right and wrong, only for life" becomes a cloak for unrighteousness.

And lastly, in a highly-charged charismatic environment, where feelings can become overwhelming, and "experience" or sensory response our primary focus, relying on your feeling of "life" can be an awful trap. Then the Bible itself becomes "dead letters" to you if you can't extract "life" out of it; conversely, anything barely related to the Bible can give "life" if you get sufficiently excited about it. Thus came the equivalent of braying "four legs good, two legs bad" at meetings: we thought if we shouted something loudly enough, for long enough, it would become real. "It's the life, life, life, that makes me want to shout" went the LC song. But we shouted a lot of slogans that were tenuously related to the Bible, if at all. Our focus was not on Jesus Christ, good works, or even "life"; it was on the experience of repetetive shouting.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

And lastly, in a highly-charged charismatic environment, where feelings can become overwhelming, and "experience" or sensory response our primary focus, relying on your feeling of "life" can be an awful trap. Then the Bible itself becomes "dead letters" to you if you can't extract "life" out of it; conversely, anything barely related to the Bible can give "life" if you get sufficiently excited about it. Thus came the equivalent of braying "four legs good, two legs bad" at meetings: we thought if we shouted something loudly enough, for long enough, it would become real. "It's the life, life, life, that makes me want to shout" went the LC song. But we shouted a lot of slogans that were tenuously related to the Bible, if at all. Our focus was not on Jesus Christ, good works, or even "life"; it was on the experience of repetetive shouting.

I agree. In the LC, whatever it is that constitutes "life" is something that is highly subjective and usually it is a matter of an elder calling something life, and then calling the alternative death. For the rank and file member, they think Lee's ministry makes them feel happy or excited, so they say it gives them "life" while other ministries don't. It is indeed a trap.

Because they feel that "life" can only exist in the realm of Lee's ministry, they have already narrowed what they are willing to accept as "life". If someone criticizes Lee's ministry, that automatically is labeled as "death", and it might not even be necessary for a brother like Ron to come in and say that. The rank and file member already believes that speaking positively about Lee's ministry is imperative for "life" to exist.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

...He pointed out, I believe, that Eve added to God's word when she said they weren't even supposed to touch the fruit of the tree of knowledge. That was a great catch. But he didn't emphasize this point adequately. By inference we can conclude that touching the tree of knowledge was fine. In fact, because it was centered in the garden, it was almost mandatory....

In bringing this thread back to the top, I'd first like to comment on this "great catch" highlighted above. A "greater catch" is this:

When God told Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge, Eve had not yet been "made". She wasn't there---she didn't exist. How 'bout them apples? :-)

How did she know?

Did God repeat the warning to her directly? This is possible.
Did Adam repeat God's warning to her? If so, did he repeat it exactly as told to him by God, or, did Adam add "neither shall ye touch it" when he repeated it to Eve? Possible.
Or, did Eve add "neither shall ye touch it" on her own? Totally possible.

Regardless, it is notable that Eve had not yet been formed when the warning not to eat of the tree of knowlege was spoken. If Lee had "caught" this, he didn't share it with us.

Next, there are only 2 references to the "tree of knowledge" in the Bible: Genesis 2:9 and 2:17.

In verse 2:9 we are simply told of the existance of the tree of knowledge. In verse 2:17, we are commanded not to eat of it on penalty of death. So...either eat of the tree, or don't. Obey or disobey. Nothing about "life". Nothing about "source". Just a command.

Where, in the teachings of Lee, is disobedience to God's command not to eat of the tree of knowledge? OBW states below in Post #2 that "the fall was the result of disobedience, not fruit or snakes." I agree with this. The Bible is full of verses on obedience to God's Word, to His commands, to His commandments, yet Lee takes one verse on the tree of knowledge and forms a "ministry" around it.

Nell

Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
...
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

*****
Genesis 2: 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
...
22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

Gen. 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

[Nell]

This is a bit off topic, but worth noting. Are you ever curious about your IP address? (Your IP address is how your computer is identified and/or tracked on the Internet.)

You can Google "what is my IP address" and a list of web sites will appear.

Or you can go to an LSM web site, like this:
http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?p

You'll see this message near the bottom of the page:
Downloading this material, even for personal use, is prohibited.
Your IP address is 166.17.199.18 [10:56:53 AM (GMT -08:00), September 24, 2015].

I was researching the trees for my last post and found a "Life Study" that I would have quoted, but found this warning. Just to get the point across, by adding your IP address, the LSM is saying: "we know who you are, how to find you, and when you were on our website downloading our stuff."

Nell

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Nell

When God told Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge, Eve had not yet been "made". She wasn't there---she didn't exist. How 'bout them apples? :-)

How did she know?

I agree with so much of what you said. But right at the beginning, it would seem that you momentarily fell into one of the errors of over-thinking that we all do too often.

The errors that Lee seemed to center on so intentionally are things that we are all prone to at times. See through one error but charge right past the next. The difference is that Lee appears to have used them to his benefit.

But to claim that Eve was not around to hear God speak about the tree of knowledge of good and evil and/or the tree of life is a tough call in a story that begins with an extremely shortened version of the whole of creation and then starts part of it over again. A second telling before the first has sunk in. We hear so little of the interaction of God with Adam, and then including Eve that you either draw the conclusion that they didn't really interact that much, or you can't really say what was or was not spoken in Eve's presence, or after she was made.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Personally, I have always appreciated Lee's interpretation and emphasis on the two named trees in Eden. I just don't think he went far enough.

He pointed out, I believe, that Eve added to God's word when she said they weren't even supposed to touch the fruit of the tree of knowledge. That was a great catch. But he didn't emphasize this point adequately. By inference we can conclude that touching the tree of knowledge was fine. In fact, because it was centered in the garden, it was almost mandatory.

The point seems clear: handling knowledge isn't wrong; imbibing on it is. Modern academia, particularly the humanities -- of which I was part -- eats voraciously from this tree. Eating, rather than simply handling, has caused academia to become the ugly thing that it is.

Thanks for bringing this thread back up Nell.

Just want to comment six years later on SpeakersCorner's post here, for anyone reading down the road. He seems to make the classic mistake of calling the tree "the tree of knowledge" and comparing it to what goes on in academia.

It's not the tree of knowledge. It's the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Two very different things.

I mention this mainly because truncating the name of the tree, while convenient for typing, ends up changing what it is entirely. Lee also did this - called it the tree of knowledge - and used that to condemn knowledge. Well, it's not the tree of knowledge generally. It's specifically the tree of the knowledge of good and evil only.

After they ate of it God didn't say "behold they have become like us, knowing things, or having knowledge". God said, "behold they have become like us, knowing good and evil."

[UntoHim]

Original Opening Post
I have reached out to the opening poster to get his thoughts and perspective after posting this about 9 years ago.

Originally Posted by John - 3/11/2012

God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.
(Gen 1:31, NASB)

Quite soon after becoming a Christian, I became a member of Witness Lee’s Local Church. After spending 20 years in the group, being indoctrinated by him and his leaders, I came to the conclusion that I was in a religious system virtually bereft of the Spirit, and that I felt just about spiritually dead myself … so, I left.

Lately, after being out for almost 25 years, I have been considering in more depth what I learned from Lee through his Living Stream Ministry. I have wanted to find out what foundational ideas about the Bible that I might still hold, maybe almost unconsciously, that are wrong and that I had accepted from Lee unwittingly. (In the Local Church, we were encouraged not to think, not to use our minds.)


The trees of Lee in the midst of us

One of Lee’s over-arching teachings about the Bible is about the two trees in the garden of Eden. It goes something like this: There were two trees in the garden. One was the tree of life, and the other was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The tree of life represents Christ, and the other one, which he called, on occasion, the tree of death, represents Satan. God’s purpose was that mankind was to partake of the tree of life and not the tree of death. Well, mankind failed, ate of the wrong tree, left the garden, and was prevented from returning.

Now, according to Lee, we have been brought back to the place where we can partake of Christ, the tree of life; and, that is what we are supposed to be doing on a regular, if not constant, basis. Conversely, we are to stay away from the other tree, the poisonous tree that consists of knowledge, and of good and evil, and brings death. Witness Lee often preached against dead knowledge and those Christians who would simply study the scriptures to learn. For him and his Living Stream Ministry followers, the whole Bible is mainly about life and death, and we were to only care for life.


Put your mind in gear

As a result of Lee’s teaching on the trees, slogans began to be thrown around in the Local Churches like ones similar to these:

• Don’t care about right and wrong; just care for life.

• I don’t sense life in what you are saying.

• I don’t feel [a sense of life] to help you at this time.

• Get out of your mind; get your spirit in gear.

As an aside, to those who would say, “Get out of your mind; get your spirit in gear,” note the following from The Message:

“So roll up your sleeves, put your mind in gear, be totally ready to receive the gift that's coming when Jesus arrives.” (1 Pet 1:13)

Getting back to the topic, so-called “life” became equated with having wonderful times in Local Church meetings. Nothing else seemed to matter but to get into somewhat of an exuberant state that was referred to as “the enjoyment.” Eventually, I became as one with no moral compass; because, to consider good and evil (right and wrong) was to be in the enemy’s clutches. We were to focus solely on life, which seemed to mean to go along with what was called “the flow,” which was based on what Witness Lee and the leaders were preaching.


What choice do we have?

Witness Lee taught us that we had the same choice as did Adam and Eve. We were not to consider good and evil, right and wrong. We were to forsake knowledge. We were always to choose life and only care for life. This was Lee’s ongoing emphasis. This kind of thinking, I believe, still controls members and many former members of the Local Churches. What about this teaching, though? Is it accurate, according to the Bible, to say that right and wrong, good and evil, are considerations to be avoided by Christians?

Back then, this teaching sounded—dare I say—good. Now that I have thought it through, though, it does not make sense to me. His teaching sounds as if we can be mentally transported back in time to the garden of Eden and given the choice between the two trees, just like Adam and Eve, with the opportunity to just swallow the life one wholeheartedly. Actually, this is not the situation faced by Christians today. In the distant past, Eve and Adam ate of the wrong tree and came to know good and evil. Now, mankind has this knowledge, and there is no going back to a state in which we do not have this knowledge. Yes, we now do have access to Jesus Christ, the One Who is life, and the option to choose Him; but, we are not now able to simply forget about good and evil.


“Not poisoned,” says Barnes

While reading some of Barnes’ Notes on the Bible about Genesis 3:22, I found that he thought that eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil did not poison mankind (as Witness Lee had told us), as if the masticated fruit itself, going into Adam and Eve’s stomachs, could have caused some interaction with their intellects that brought them to know good and evil. Barnes stated, instead, that it was the disobedience itself that caused the knowledge, as in, “Oh no; now I know the guilt and shame of having disobeyed God, which was an evil act on my part.” His commentary may or may not be true; however, I think that it is healthy, for those of us who were immersed solely in incessant indoctrination via Lee, meeting after meeting, to read and consider a contrary view (which is what the Living Stream Ministry does not want any of its captive audience to do).

And another thing, just for argument’s sake, is that the following verse, in the context of Lee’s theology, seems to preclude the two-tree scenario that Lee painted as a choice for us now:

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev 2:7, KJV)

According to Lee, overcomers will receive a special reward in the coming kingdom. If God has already given all of us Christians an opportunity to eat of the tree of life now, as Lee preached from Genesis, why would John in Revelation indicate that eating of the tree of life is to be a reward just for overcomers in the future?

This question, like Barnes’ commentary, is not critical to my presentation, so I have not investigated how it might fit in with some larger theology about eating of the tree of life. What these two observations do bring up are possible flaws in Witness Lee’s teaching. My main point is to relate how Lee misled his followers to be afraid of good works in the pursuit of some nebulous thing he called life.


Taking the good out of God

Moving on with Witness Lee’s teaching, he warned us that a person is capable of doing mere human good without God; so, we shouldn’t be involved in just doing good. In the same way, I could say that a person can be involved in mere human life without God; so, according to Lee’s logic, we shouldn’t just focus on what became known as life in the Local Church as a thing in itself. In addition to that, Jesus said, “There is none good but One, that is, God,” further proving that Witness Lee was incorrect.

Regardless of what you think about the accuracy of Lee’s version of what happened in the garden of Eden, whether or not a person who is merely ethical can do good, and the choice we now have today, the result of his teaching for me (and others, I would assume) is that I was left in a moral vacuum, wondering whether or not some good work I might be contemplating was under the initiation of the Holy Spirit or if I was just simply trying to do a good work. If the latter, then it would actually be a dead work (devoid of the Spirit) and in the same category as the mere dead good works that “poor, degraded Christianity” did (Lee’s label). His teaching caused me to retreat from good works and cloister myself away in Local Church doings, things which were safe, approved, and supposedly in the domain of life.


A biblical accounting

So, what does the Bible really say about good works? I did some searching and came up with the following statistics from the New Testament related to God’s people doing good and right, and not doing evil or wrong:

• 56 passages related to doing good

• 6 passages related to doing right

• 6 passages related to not doing wrong

• (Did not search for the word “evil”)

The following sections contain some of the 68 noted passages as examples of the good we Christians are to do and the right and wrong that we are to avoid.


The Bible tells us to do good works

Note that most of the following New Testament verses do not give a qualification that the good a person does must be in accord with the Spirit or the result of an outflow from Christ as life, or some such. (I did not check the contexts of these verses, so some may have the idea in surrounding verses.) I am not saying that a person does not need to keep in step with the Spirit when doing good; I am simply saying that most of the verses do not mention it. In other words, we Christians are simply told to do good works and that it is important that we do (to the chagrin of Witness Lee and the so-called “Lord’s Recovery.”

These are the biblical instructions that Witness Lee in some sense hid from us by ignoring them. Before you might decide to just sail through these verses without letting them speak to you, doesn’t it make sense, that after listening to hundreds of sermons about life, we should at least read what God wrote to us about good works? With that in mind, here are many really “good” verses from the New Testament:

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: (Rom 2:10, KJV)

10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith. (Gal 6:10, KJV)

28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. (Eph 4:28, KJV)

8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. (Eph 6:8, KJV)

10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; (Col 1:10, KJV)

17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work. (2Th 2:17, KJV)

18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; 19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life. (1Ti 6:18-19, KJV)

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. (2Ti 2:21, KJV)

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, ... 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. (2Ti 3:3, 17, KJV)

8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; ... 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. (Tts 1:8, 16, KJV)

7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, ... 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. (Tts 2: 7, 14, KJV)

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: (Hbr 10:24, KJV)

16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. ... 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. (Hbr 13:16, 21, KJV)

13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. (Jam 3:13, KJV)

17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. (Jam 4:17, KJV)

12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation. (1Pe 2:12, KJV)

11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. 12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil. 13 And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? (1Pe 3:11-13, KJV)

11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God. (3Jo 1:11, KJV)

Now that you have, hopefully, considered the foregoing verses, remember that the book of James was more or less condemned by Witness Lee as off the mark, being, in his opinion, too focused on works rather than life? As you can see by the verses, James was not the only author of New Testament text who wrote about the need for Christians to do good works.

Wouldn’t it have been better if Witness Lee had encouraged us to do good works, as the Bible does, and encouraged us to pray to be in the Spirit when initiating and doing them? For new Christians like me, I think that this kind of encouragement would have had a much better outcome. At the very least, I would have been doing something biblical.


In the “wrong” garlic room

Lee taught us that life was the only important thing and that life would do it all. He not only ignored good works, he steered us away from them by telling us that knowledge and good and evil were on the same satanic tree that we were to avoid.

With Lee’s incessant emphasis on life, we probably hardly noticed this verse:

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. (Hbr 5:14, KJV)

Because we were in Lee’s garlic room for so long, if we did read the verse, we probably didn’t pay it any mind—our senses to discern between good and evil had atrophied to the point that God’s own word could not breach the “life walls” that Lee had built around our minds.

For me, almost everything in the Bible became translated to life by Lee’s voice in my head. I remember having the thought in one meeting in which Lee was asking questions, that every answer was turned by him to be life, that mysterious something that you came to know by experience in meetings. Eventually, I realized that as long as I went to all the meetings and experienced the thing we called life, then I thought that I was fine. This idea, however, does not line up with the Bible, which declares that we are to do good and to learn to distinguish between good and evil.


Right and wrong are important

As I mentioned earlier, it was also stated among us members of the Local Church that we should not be caught up with considerations of what is right and what is wrong. This, of course, became an excuse for leaders to abandon their duty to do the right things in regard to Christ, the members of His body, and society in general. The cloak of “life,” and the belief that forwarding the designs of “the Recovery” was the most important thing, enabled the leaders to set morality and biblical mandates aside.

Because of this mindset, I present the following verses that show that right and wrong are proper considerations for Christians:

13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? (Mat 20:13, KJV)

57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right? (Luk 12:57, KJV)

21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. (Act 8:21, KJV)

10 Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's judgment seat, where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest. (Act 25:10, KJV)

1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. (Eph 6:1, KJV)

25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons. (Col 3:25, KJV)

15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; (2Pe 2:15, KJV)

If life is to be the only way, then why did Peter state that those who walk according to the flesh (v 10) have forsaken the right way (instead of “forsaken the way of life”)? If right and wrong are not to be considered, then why did Paul write to the Colossians that God would punish those who did wrong (instead of those who did not “do life”)?


One final thought

Why do you suppose Witness Lee warned us away from good works (works that the Bible tells us to do) and focused us on a thing he called “life,” a life that was mostly defined as a nice feeling in Local Church meetings, a “life” that indirectly included adherence to the programs of Lee and his leaders, a “life” that was only to be found in his Local Church? One of the reasons might be that Witness Lee had so few good works of his own.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
(Eph 2:10, KJV)