Transformation: Did Lee Miss the Point?

[Cal]

One of the central themes of Lee's ministry was the transformation of the believer into the image of Christ, meaning the changing of his inner being, spirit and soul, into something that matched Christ.

Lee had an unusal take on this, however. According to him simply the act of "adding the element of God" through fellowship, prayer and other spritual experience "automatically" led to transformation. Although Lee stressed obedience, he rarely directly tied obeying the Spirit with being transformed by the Spirit. Rather he often seemed to imply that transformation could take place without being obedient, simply by taking in the Spirit.

So LRC faithful would do all kinds of things to get "filled with the Spirit," hoping that the simple fact of "enjoying the Lord" would change them.

In my experience, this is something of a false hope. As I've gone on, I've become aware that being changed by the Spirit is directly related to being obedient to the Spirit. Enjoying the Lord and being filled with the Spirit sets the stage and fuels me, so to speak, for acts of obedience, but it seems it is the obedience, the saying Amen and the willingness to be changed, which are crucial.

Lee stressed being transformed (itself a non-typical word, most Christians prefer the less dramatic "changed") as something "metabolic," citing that the Greek word rendered transformed in Romans is "metamorphos" like the metamorphoses of a caterpillar into a butterfly. Although this is not wrong, he stressed that aspect of it so much that LRCers lost sight that God was seeking to change them, that is their hearts and souls, not just on some mysterious metaphysical level (which we couldn't understand anyway, but Lee loved to talk about it), but on the level of what we think, feel and decide--the level of what's important to us, where we actually live.

Further, a major plank in Lee's theology was that that God got added to or "wrought into" our inner being. I'm not sure this is accurate at all. I think God changes our hearts and the more he does the more he can dwell comfortably in us and be seen in us. But whether that means that "more" of God is added as time goes by I believe is very questionable. In fact, I think it's flat wrong.

If I just come out of a good church meeting and feel filled with the Spirit, people may say "he's got a lot of God." But if thirty minutes later I'm screaming at my kids and losing my temper, what happened to all that "God" that was "added" to me?

[Ohio]

Are you accepting alternative and dissenting viewpoints?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Are you accepting alternative and dissenting viewpoints?

Sure, fire away.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Further, a major plank in Lee's theology was that that God got added to or "wrought into" our inner being. I'm not sure this is accurate at all. I think God changes our hearts and the more he does the more he can dwell comfortably in us and be seen in us. But whether that means that "more" of God is added as time goes by I believe is very questionable. In fact, I think it's flat wrong.

If I just come out of a good church meeting and feel filled with the Spirit, people may say "he's got a lot of God." But if thirty minutes later I'm screaming at my kids and losing my temper, what happened to all that "God" that was "added" to me?

I agree with your comments about "false hope" spread by the ministry. This is because the real work of the Spirit was disappearing, and WL had to explain why there was no real change in the saints even though they were doing "all the right things."

The Bible does tell us that we grow with the growth of God. Performing mechanized activities provides little to no growth. Growth is spiritual, and it is always related to our heart. Paul planted the seed of life into the saints. That was an addition of God. Apollos watered the seed. That was "more" of God in the believers. But it is God who gave the growth.

Whatever spiritual exercises we did that at one time helped us to grow, cannot be mechanically reproduced with the same results. Growth does include change. Real change. Firstly changes in thinking, then changes in behavior. Oh how our minds need constant renewing!

I saw much genuine Spirit-changing activity in the earlier years when our center was on Christ. Yes, there were problems, but there was an addition of God in those seeking Him.

One of the serious problems in the LC was highlighted in your final paragraph. The goal and center of our Christian walk was misdirected by WL. He firstly focused us all on the meetings, then he directed us all to himself and his ministry. In this way many, many precious ones were defrauded from their first love, Christ, and many brothers and sisters did not rightly esteem their relationship with their spouses and children.

I, for one, was guilty of this. Interestingly, the more I repented to the Lord, and properly focused on my family, the less appetite I had for WL and his program. That says a lot. But, unfortunately, I learn most lessons thru painful failure.

Originally Posted by Igzy

But whether that means that "more" of God is added as time goes by I believe is very questionable. In fact, I think it's flat wrong.

Does 1/8 of God indwell us when we become Christians and than we need Lee's ministry as the official God dispenser to increase that amount? Because that's the basic concept behind their transformation ideology. Like you I think this way of thinking is erroneous.

[Paul Cox]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Does 1/8 of God indwell us when we become Christians and than we need Lee's ministry as the official God dispenser to increase that amount? Because that's the basic concept behind their transformation ideology. Like you I think this way of thinking is erroneous.

No, Witness Lee taught that we receive all that we are supposed to receive of God, but only in our human spirit. The human spirit becomes a "beach head," according to Lee. From there God spreads out into our soul - thus, the salvation of our souls.

The problem isn't so much with that teaching in essence, but rather Lee's concept of how that is done. As has been stated, he placed much emphasis on complying with all the prescribed mechanics of the Living Stream "church-life," in order for the Lord to accomplish this. So don't worry about anything else, just jump into the "enjoyment." God will be "dispensed" into your being. Get our of your mind and into your spirit. Don't ask questions, the question mark looks like a serpent.

So, the result of all that is that you have a group of gray haired old brothers who in many aspects are in a state of arrested development. You want to know how to maximize your "enjoyment" by engaging in all the the exercises prescribed by the "Apostle for the age?" They can teach you volumes. You want to know how to treat your brother next to you who has come to the conclusion that he can no longer obey the teachings of the Blended Brothers, hook, line and sinker? It's like asking a kindergarten student to explain Einstein's theory of relativity to you. Not a clue.

Witness Lee had to make it this way. If not, the current population of his movement would be a mere fraction of what it is.

P.C.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Paul Cox

No, Witness Lee taught that we receive all that we are supposed to receive of God, but only in our human spirit. The human spirit becomes a "beach head," according to Lee. From there God spreads out into our soul - thus, the salvation of our souls.

P.C.

Ahhh brother Paul ... such a cute little kid ... spoiled by that Tiger hat ... C'mon man!

[UntoHim]

I'm beginning to wonder if there is something about letting the words of the gospels be superior to Paul rather than the other way around that is being missed in the kind of statements that we heard for so many years, and we continue to make ourselves.

Very keen observation, and maybe worth it's own thread. Yet when you think about it, it should sound rather strange that we would favor the Gospels over the writings of the apostle Paul, or the other way around. They are both "the living and abiding Word of God" and both "inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness". It seems to me, in retrospect, that Witness Lee favored and emphasized the writings of the apostle Paul over the Gospels because he had his own gospel, and many elements of this gospel were different, in some cases very different, than the teachings we find in the four Gospels. We should have been on guard and rejected this "different gospel", yet many of us were very young and gullible. We swallowed the notion that the apostle Paul's writings were somehow a "higher gospel", a further, more advanced gospel. Yet the apostle Paul himself said no such thing, in fact he indicated just the opposite. (cf: But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! Gal 1:8 and "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.." 1 Cor 15:3,4)

...We really need to awaken from our slumber and see that we have been fed a bad gospel. We have been led astray. I'm not saying that everything Lee ever said was wrong. But too much was and it even corrupted the good.

Which is part of the reason this forum exists.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Yet when you think about it, it should sound rather strange that we would favor the Gospels over the writings of the apostle Paul, or the other way around. They are both "the living and abiding Word of God" and both "inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness".

I understand your point. And I do not disagree. But even within the "living and abiding Word of God" there is a difference between the direct speaking of God and the indirect speaking through men. Between the actions of God, the Son, and analysis provided by others when dealing with specific issues.

My point is that Lee took Paul as the core of the New Testament and reread everything in light of his reading of Paul. (I can't say "in light of Paul" because I see too many errors in his reading of Paul.) But if I have a choice to read what Christ directly said and did, and seek to understand Paul's words in that light, or conversely take what Paul wrote and try to read the gospels as modified by my understanding of Paul, I choose the former. I choose to read the gospels as the source and Paul as commentary. If there seems to be a problem, it is probably a misreading of the commentary because the source was rather direct in his speaking.

After reading Paul, you can argue about whether we are or are not required to fulfill the righteousness of the law, and whether the whole Bible is about dispensing. But read the gospels and Jesus said to be as holy as he is. To love your neighbor as yourself. To care for the poor, widows, orphans, aliens among you, etc. To not even think about adultery. To not even hate your brother.

In Matthew 5:17-20, Jesus starts his discussion of righteousness with the following:

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

I'm convinced that so much of Lee's "soak up God an don't just try to do it" theology is a variation on setting aside more than one of "these commands." The penalty falls to him for doing it. But there is a consequence to our lives, even if not as severe as Lee's, for continuing to live as if it is all about being spiritual, and just abiding, and never doing (at least until is just falls on you). Funny thing is that if you are waiting for it to fall on you, I suspect that you will never do — because it doesn't just fall. We actually have to do. Not just abide. Or "care for life."

Jesus didn't suggest that we should be seeking dispensing before doing any of his commands. He said to obey and there would be an abiding. Lee claims Paul said the opposite (in so many words). Who do you take as the source and who the commentator? And if someone is wrong in their analysis, I suggest it is the one who says that you don't have to do. Why? Because Jesus said you do have to do. That means that whoever thinks Paul said otherwise is misreading — unless you want to argue that Paul really shouldn't be in the scripture (which I do not intend to do).

The answer is Christ is the source. Paul is just the commentator. Lee turned so many of Paul's specific comments about how various groups were effectively being unrighteous into theology about how to be spiritual. All while ignoring the righteousness.

There is a significant group today that actually kind of ignores all that Paul wrote. I think this is too much. We really would not understand it all without the commentaries that Paul, Peter, John, James, Jude, and whoever wrote Hebrews had to say. But without the gospels, there is nothing to comment on. But without the commentaries, I bet we could make a pretty good pass at the kind of spiritual and practical obedience that Jesus called for.

[Paul Cox]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Ahhh brother Paul ... such a cute little kid ... spoiled by that Tiger hat ... C'mon man!

Gettin my grandson started off on the right foot. Go Tigers. Bring on the Tide.

P.C.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by awareness

When I look back on the local church I see it as very juvenile, and preying on the juvenile. And those that grew old in the LC remain today to be very juvenile minded ...

They jumped down the bunny hole and they're still drinking tea with the Mad Hatter ...

Yeah, but you think that about people who believe the Bible is inerrant and Jesus is God.

Which is why what you think about the LC is not going to carry much weight with orthodox Christians.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by awareness

Who cares about what orthodox Christians think? What orthodoxy are you talking about anyway? Eastern? Western? Catholic? Protestant? There's all kinds of orthodoxy. Please clarify....

You know what orthodox means. It means the orthodox faith. Who Jesus was, what he did.

You should care what orthodox Christians think because that is pretty much the only group who are going to be interested in knowing anything about the LRC. You think earth spirit-worshipping Goths give a hoot about them? You think atheists and agnostics care? Hindus? Zen Buddhists? Think they frequent this site much?

Which audience are you writing to? Or do you even consider things like that?

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Igzy

One of the central themes of Lee's ministry was the transformation of the believer into the image of Christ, meaning the changing of his inner being, spirit and soul, into something that matched Christ.

Finally ! A fresh new thread !! 'bout time guys Actually, I haven't had much time to pop in. But I found this to be a great topic for discussion just as I was going to raise this very subject to some friends of mine.

From the top:
Initially, when I heard this message taught in the LC, my heart and soul rejoiced! I was a young girl who did not have direction in her life, had poor self esteem and was a 'people pleaser' to compensate. For the first time, I had HOPE for my life to change!!! I truly believed w/all my heart (as I still do) God gives us purpose and changes our 'stinking thinking'.

Lee had an unusal take on this, however. According to him simply the act of "adding the element of God" through fellowship, prayer and other spritual experience "automatically" led to transformation. Although Lee stressed obedience, he rarely directly tied obeying the Spirit with being transformed by the Spirit. Rather he often seemed to imply that transformation could take place without being obedient, simply by taking in the Spirit.

And that's where his message became convuluted. Lee stressed 2 points throughout my time in the LC: ENJOYING the Lord and the 'vision of the church' (which we all know meant the vision of the LC or LRC). He seemed to convey all you needed to be transformed is to 'enjoy the Lord' & the church life as we knew it. What a disservice he did to the saints. He's responsible for screwing a lot of peoples heads.

We can't simply 'enjoy the Lord' if we have not been convicted by the Holy Spirit to repent. Repentence is not simply 'I repent of all my sins. end of story.' Repentence, I PERSONALLY have learned is an on going process. Until we receive our Glorified bodies, the Holy Spirit will always bring out some dark crevice into the LIGHT. That's been my experience thus far !

An example: the Holy Spirit has convicted me enought times for calling every knucklehead that plucked my last nerve an 'idiot'. I finally got to the point I had no peace until I said to the Lord. " LORD. I'm sorry for calling them knuckleheads and idiots. They may act that way, and in my eyes, they ARE but I probably act that way too at times. You're very patient with me and have forgiven me. Forgive them and have Mercy on them as You have had Mercy and forgiven me.' There's been times when He made me apologize to the person and sometimes it's just between me & God.

"Enjoyment of the Lord," especially the way we did corporately did more harm than good and has damaged or destroyed many lives and marriages. Add to that, Lee instilled in us the 'vision' (more a 'belief') that 'there was nothing better out there than the glorious church life. That 'church life of course was the LC we knew. And had we all learned to abide in Christ and yield to His Holy Spirit as we are instructed to, the church life indeed could have been a most Glorious experience. God's promise to us is old things pass away & HE makes all things new. HE is the Healer of our souls, and HE IS.

So LRC faithful would do all kinds of things to get "filled with the Spirit," hoping that the simple fact of "enjoying the Lord" would change them.

In my experience, this is something of a false hope.

Igzy my friend. You hit the jackpot! BINGO.

I want to share some highlights from 2004 that began restoring my relationship with the LORD and thus transforming my life.

1) For many years, I was in a very dark place in my life. Out of desperation I did some deep soul searching I needed answers to questions I had about myself. I needed to know why most of my life people controlled me, manipulated me, walked all over me, used me and verbally/emotionally abused me. I needed to know WHY I allowed this to happen over & over & over again.[/B]

2) I found those answers when I learned Satan used familiar spirits, soul ties, and transfer of spirits to destroy peoples lives (both believers and non believers.) I had never even heard of such things. But once I did, everything made sense to me! I learned somewhere intentionally or not, perhaps even as a child, I opened a window to demonic forces. [B]Windows I never shut because some windows I did not even know they were open much less how to shut.

I learned that even after I was saved, really saved, these strongholds still controlled and wreacked havoc on my life, even while I tried my best to 'Enjoy' the Lord and the church life. Lee's answer to people's emotional problems was 'enjoy the Lord. That is how you get out of your mind and into your spirit.'

But we have to get rid of the strongholds first ! And we did not know how.

3) Now that I understood the strongholds of these evil spirits, I Repented from the deepest, most heartfelt part of my gut, my spirit shedding buckets of tears for having opened those windows inadvertently. I probably opened those windows as a kid and did not know it!! I also renounced those spirits out loud. I didn’t scream or yell. But with a true heart and full assurance of Faith, I renounced those spirits, naming each and everyone of them. I asked the Lord to wash me in His Precious Blood anew.

It was then I began to experience complete Deliverance. Emotional healing and complete Deliverance does not happen over night. But I did feel a heavy weight lift off from me immediately. It was the beginning of my healing process. Within a month, I felt stronger in the Lord and my relationship with HIM began to be so restored, people at work noticed the change in me. I said to the Lord (in a condensed version) this:

“Lord Jesus. You've been so incredibly Patient and Loving towards me. I am soo sorry for hindering Your Work in me. With YOU nothing is impossible. Will You bring me up to speed to be the person I ought to be in Christ had I not hindered what You began in me 25 years ago? Thank You Lord.”

As the saying goes:
I may not be where I want to be but Halleluiah. I'm not where I used to be.

Thanks for reading my testimony and my experience friends !

[OBW]

Isn't this an alternate way to think about the old "right or wrong doesn't matter, just the S/spirit"? This is one of those core statements that put living according to the Spirit on the back-burner and just getting more "dispensing" on the front.

And as Peter looks on from wherever he is, he is thinking that we have missed his very clear point that we actually have everything we need for righteousness.

So, YES. Lee missed the point.

Romans 5:10 " For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

OBW,

This verse states that the salvation after reconciliation is accomplished by His life. This is not the same thing as living according to decisions about right and wrong as you suggest.

The christian life is living out the life of a Person. To miss this is to miss the point of the christian life.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

This is not the same thing as living according to decisions about right and wrong as you suggest.
The christian life is living out the life of a Person. To miss this is to miss the point of the christian life.

Mike can speak for himself (and I'm sure he will), but I don't think he is saying that we should be living according to decisions about right and wrong. In fact he specifically mentions "living according to the Spirit".

You say "The christian life is living out the life of a Person". There is lot's to discuss about this. I hope you will take a few minutes and register for the forum so that we can talk about this. You can send an email to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com. Just tell us what you want to use as your UserName (example: UntoHim), and you will receive a welcome email along with a temporary password which you can change to something only you will know.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Romans 5:10 " For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

OBW,

This verse states that the salvation after reconciliation is accomplished by His life. This is not the same thing as living according to decisions about right and wrong as you suggest.

The christian life is living out the life of a Person. To miss this is to miss the point of the christian life.

I would suggest that you continue reading Romans. This kind of "fortune cookie" gospel results in skewed (or skewered) understanding of the scripture.

Yes, we are saved in his life. But that does not mean that we simply sit around and soak it up and we are changed. If we do nothing different, then where is the change — other than in theory?

I know that Lee was determined that we don't "do" outside of what we have received to do. I remember such nonsense as "premature revelation." I find no such thing in scripture. But both Paul and Peter (and probably all the others), plus Jesus himself, said to be righteous. Just 3 chapters after the verse you quote, Paul says to set your mind. To walk. If you don't walk, you will not fulfill the righteousness of the law.

How does Romans 5:10 say that we do not "do"? Of course we must have his life. But we do. And once we do, we are commanded to live as if we do. We are never commanded to wait for more. Peter very clearly said we had what we needed. Paul did too. When he spent all of that time talking about things like being crucified with Christ, he didn't say we need more. Or need to get on the cross. He said we are crucified with Christ. And as a result of that, we should behave in a manor more congruous with the life that is within us. Paul didn't tell the Galatians to put off obedience until they got better crucified. He said they were, and so they should (obey, that is).

Yes the Christian life is living the life of Christ. And we have that life, so we should be living it. Not hiding behind a lack of it. (And if you think that I am suggesting that Lee thought that none of us had enough "life" to do it — contrary to what the scripture says — then you are just plain right.)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

Yes the Christian life is living the life of Christ. And we have that life, so we should be living it. Not hiding behind a lack of it. (And if you think that I am suggesting that Lee thought that none of us had enough "life" to do it — contrary to what the scripture says — then you are just plain right.)

Isn't that why all the members in the LC's just need more training!

How many times did we hear that from some "blended" brother.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Romans 5:10 " For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

This verse states that the salvation after reconciliation is accomplished by His life. This is not the same thing as living according to decisions about right and wrong as you suggest.

The christian life is living out the life of a Person. To miss this is to miss the point of the christian life.

Definitely a good point, and I agree with you.

But ...

The reason why some former members on this forum lean to the side of righteousness and obedience to the Lord, and the matters of "right and wrong," is that WL and company committed numerous acts of unrighteousness all the while hiding behind the banner of "we only care for life."

It is also reported that Phillip Lee, the reprobate "Office" manager at LSM during the turbulent times of the "new way," who was involved in numerous obnoxious and hideous immoralities, had the same favorite saying in times of crisis, "we don't care for right or wrong, we only care for life."

With such an equivocating saying such as that, just about any crime could be swept under the rug at LSM.

[Cal]

Lee's emphasis on "life" was initially a needed pushback to religious self-effort, which if you visited evangelical churches in the mid-20th century was probably the norm.

The problem is times have changed, and the LRC has never reverted to the mean. They are still jousting with the 1965 Church, while the Church itself has moved on. Christians these days understand grace and needing the supply of the Holy Spirit pretty well. Dead churches are not the problem today. Ironically the problem is churches which want to have joy and peace (enjoy the Lord) but balk from works of service and changing bad behavior (all matters of "right and wrong").

The LRC, because they are stuck on Lee's message, can do nothing but sing the same old song. A song that, when push came to shove and righteousness was needed, let them down.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Definitely a good point, and I agree with you. But ... The reason why some former members on this forum lean to the side of righteousness and obedience to the Lord, and the matters of "right and wrong," is that WL and company committed numerous acts of unrighteousness all the while hiding behind the banner of "we only care for life."
It is also reported that Phillip Lee, the reprobate "Office" manager at LSM during the turbulent times of the "new way," who was involved in numerous obnoxious and hideous immoralities, had the same favorite saying in times of crisis, "we don't care for right or wrong, we only care for life." With such an equivocating saying such as that, just about any crime could be swept under the rug at LSM.

The sin or immoral acts of any believer or non-believer do not negate the Word of God. Ever. Allowing someone's immoral behavior to become a filter to receiving the truths of the Word of God is merely a tactic of the Devil to keep one from experiencing God's complete salvation.

When you sin do you allow the Devil to use that sin to filter your Bible reading? Do you prevent God from shining in your heart through Hi Word by recounting your sins before Him? Do you say "why, this can't be true because I sinned"? I doubt it. I don't think you do that else you would not be the active christian that you are. You confess your sins before God and plead the blood of the Lamb like all believers must.

If you do not allow the Devil to use your sins to filter your receiving the truths of the Word of God, then why would you allow the Devil to use the reprobate acts of someone else to deprive you?

Let us never allow our owns sins, nor the sins of others, to become a filter in our reading of the Bible and receiving of the truth.

[zeek]

unregistered

Romans 5:10 " For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.


This verse states that the salvation after reconciliation is accomplished by His life. This is not the same thing as living according to decisions about right and wrong as you suggest.

The christian life is living out the life of a Person. To miss this is to miss the point of the christian life.

It's remarkable how this corresponds with my experience of abdicating the normal use of my mind when I was in the local church. It's passive and mindless. How do you picture the "life" you are taking in? Is it like clear flowing water? "Don't make decisions just take in life and live out the life of another person." That's what I did all right. Until I woke up and realized I had been duped. The people who will take advantage of you if stop making decisions and just take in and live out "life" are not just people outside the local church. In my experience the majority of the members were sincerely trying to follow this teaching while a minority, the leaders mostly, were using them. Is it an accident that this mesmerizing pacifying teaching renders people vulnerable to be manipulated by the clever rapacious sociopaths in the group? I doubt it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ok guys, here's the opening post by Igzy again. Let's get back on track.

Once again, I'm not understanding how my post to Cassidy was off topic, but OBW's and Igzy's posts were on topic.

We cannot address WL's teachings about transformation unless we also discuss his teachings about "life," which we are now doing. Along with the discussion about "life," we must address errors which exemplify the bad fruit of that extreme teaching, don't we?

Cassidy brought up Romans 5.10 which was a hallmark to WL's later ministry, just as I Cor 15.45 was to his earlier ministry.

How about relaxing the boundaries boss? I thought Igzy was cool with the conversation so far.

[UntoHim]

You're right Ohio, I was just checking to see if you guys were paying attention.

Carry on. :justlurking: