The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders

[Indiana]

www.twoturmoils.com/LCSectarianMindset.pdf

I was told by an LC leader in 2004:

The first step for you be restored to the fellowship of the churches, if in fact this is what you really want, would have to be a complete and thorough point-by-point apology and retraction of every item you mentioned on the Internet. This would have to be posted on the Internet for all to see and of course you would need to send it to each one that you sent the book to.

However, if you feel that the things that are in the book are accurate, then you don’t belong in the Lord’s recovery. Not everyone belongs in the Lord’s recovery. I know a number of brothers and sisters that just don’t belong in the Lord’s recovery. It takes a special calling from the Lord for a person to be willing to pay the price to be in the Lord’s recovery.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Indiana

I was told by an LC leader in 2004:

The first step for you be restored to the fellowship of the churches, if in fact this is what you really want, would have to be a complete and thorough point-by-point apology and retraction of every item you mentioned on the Internet. This would have to be posted on the Internet for all to see and of course you would need to send it to each one that you sent the book to.

However, if you feel that the things that are in the book are accurate, then you don’t belong in the Lord’s recovery. Not everyone belongs in the Lord’s recovery. I know a number of brothers and sisters that just don’t belong in the Lord’s recovery. It takes a special calling from the Lord for a person to be willing to pay the price to be in the Lord’s recovery.

And what a price it is!!

• Abandon reason.
• Accept crazy teachings that your mind clearly sees as incorrect.
• Watch your "acting God" lie about men who were/are much more righteous than that "acting God" ever was.
• Accept that oneness is found in defining your group/way as the only true way and belittle all who won't take it.

I would submit that rather than a point-by-point retraction, you should provide a point-by-point enhancement of the evidence that the points, one by one, cannot be retracted because they are true and to retract them would be a lie.

The membership of the LRC are like sheep without a shepherd, at least in terms of their denomination. They mostly have some true shepherds at the local level (as it should be) but are bullied and bewildered from the home office in Anaheim. Not sure how they would fare if each assembly was cut off from a defunct home office. Maybe much better. I would hope so.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Indiana

www.twoturmoils.com/LCSectarianMindset.pdf

I was told by an LC leader in 2004:

The first step for you be restored to the fellowship of the churches, if in fact this is what you really want, would have to be a complete and thorough point-by-point apology and retraction of every item you mentioned on the Internet. This would have to be posted on the Internet for all to see and of course you would need to send it to each one that you sent the book to.

However, if you feel that the things that are in the book are accurate, then you don’t belong in the Lord’s recovery. Not everyone belongs in the Lord’s recovery. I know a number of brothers and sisters that just don’t belong in the Lord’s recovery. It takes a special calling from the Lord for a person to be willing to pay the price to be in the Lord’s recovery.

"I do not accept the authority of popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other. My conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe." - Martin Luther at his second hearing before the Diet of Worms

I guess the attitude of a historical "minister of the age" is not good enough for these people.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Indiana

www.twoturmoils.com/LCSectarianMindset.pdf

I was told by an LC leader in 2004:

The first step for you be restored to the fellowship of the churches, if in fact this is what you really want, would have to be a complete and thorough point-by-point apology and retraction of every item you mentioned on the Internet. This would have to be posted on the Internet for all to see and of course you would need to send it to each one that you sent the book to.

However, if you feel that the things that are in the book are accurate, then you don’t belong in the Lord’s recovery. Not everyone belongs in the Lord’s recovery. I know a number of brothers and sisters that just don’t belong in the Lord’s recovery. It takes a special calling from the Lord for a person to be willing to pay the price to be in the Lord’s recovery.

How would this "restore you to the fellowship"? How does ignoring sin and the truth restore someone to the fellowship? How does rejecting your conscience "restore someone to the fellowship"?

[Ohio]

In the referenced document, Sherman Robertson wrote to Steve Isitt:

The website of your "book" and also the website of your "fellowship" with those such as Don Hardy and others is now a VERY BIG PROBLEM FOR YOU. Your thought about the recovery being wrong is your major problem. Brother Lee was never wrong about anything that happened regarding the rebellion with John I. in the late 1980's.

Brother Lee is a different person than Phillip Lee. Brother Lee would never do things that others would do.

This brief quote above highlights the Grand Canyon sized "chasm" which separates the LSM loyalists from the many former members, like Steve Isitt, who have dared to dig beneath the surface, and then speak up about what was found there. These points will always characterize the ardent followers of WL:

• The Recovery is never wrong
• Brother Lee is never wrong
• Brother Lee would never do things that others would do

These items characterize the "armor" that protects the LSM'ers stronghold. The brothers that "disciplined" Steve Isitt, consider these points to be as much a part of God's plan, err ... God's economy, as the very virgin birth of Jesus Christ. These matters are simply not negotiable. Every other sin is forgiveable, but just like denying the virgin birth, the pivotal truth that God Himself has come in the flesh, to reject these matters constitutes the unforgiveable sin for LSM. The primary foundational characteristic of all the Blendeds is to "hold these truths to be self-evident."

Unless we can understand the hardened mindset in the LC system, we can not appreciate the "mountain" that Steve Isitt must climb to be "reconciled." In this system, "death" is far more serious than any sin, thus LSM's chief theologian Ron Kangas has labeled Steve, "the man of death." This tag goes way beyond the Biblical "Raca" and "Moreh." (Mt 5.22) This carefully chosen epithet ranks with "the man of sin," (II Th 2.3) which was the Apostle Paul's description of the Antichrist, and since death is considered by the Blendeds to be far worse than sin, one can begin to understand the enormity of their curse upon Steve.

Which reminds me of the final Beatitude spoken by the Lord Jesus. "Blessed are you when they reproach and persecute you, and say every evil thing against you, lying, for My sake. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in the heavens, for thus they persecuted the prophets before you. You are the salt of the earth." Mt 5.11-13

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Indiana

However, if you feel that the things that are in the book are accurate, then you don’t belong in the Lord’s recovery. Not everyone belongs in the Lord’s recovery. I know a number of brothers and sisters that just don’t belong in the Lord’s recovery. It takes a special calling from the Lord for a person to be willing to pay the price to be in the Lord’s recovery.

I appreciate the brother's honesty and for not speaking the usual rhetoric. Keep in mind it's his opinion and does not speak for most of those meeting in the local churches.
Most saints I know who meet in the local churches believe the local church is for all believers and contradict the brothers feeling.

To say not everyone belongs in the Lord's recovery is saying the local churches is not for everyone. Brothers and sisters who cannot be absolute for the ministry, those brothers and sisters are better off in denominational and non-denominational christianity. If you ask me why that is, my answer would be not all Christians are for the Living Stream's ministry or any other ministry. Christians may want just the Word without an emphasis on any brother's teaching. This is why the local churches is not for everyone.
Question I have what is it to have a special calling from the Lord for a person to be willing to pay the price to be in the Lord's recovery?

[Indiana]

Terry, I'm not sure what you are saying. Sherman Robertson, too, thinks he is an accepting brother; Ron Kangas thinks he also, as do all the blending brothers, leaders and the saints... So accepting of others!

Until they are tested... Then their obsession appears, in some form, to some degree, and in both "great or small"; family member or elder; Ron Kangas or Sherman Robertson; Joel Kennon, Richard Lee, James Lee, Les Cites, Dan Towle...These and more have been my encounters. One will find out by experience, in departing further away from "the party line", the wickedness of the LC leaders' mindset that has infected many in the congregation of LC saints, even my son who rarely attends, has attacked me; even my "friend-brother" who had been backslidden for years rose up to mercilessly assail me for my writings; even the most gentle, silent, small LC brother condemned me, who had been calling me once in a while till he heard from an "elder', that I am "against the ministry". There must be so many other cases among the saints in the churches where elders and saints have become thus infected in allowing the ministry to become the dividing line.

The people I have mentioned, and more (Paul Hon is one), earnestly charge me or encourage me to just "go to the brothers" and do what they tell me, then all will be well. I have been told several times to "just drop your concerns".

But.... "As long as you think that you are right about what you put on the internet and that the problem is that the brothers from the local churches are not open, this is a proof that you have no light on
this matter. And until you get light, you have no way with the Lord. Without light, you will never be able to come back to the Lord's recovery. Because you just don't know how to handle this situation. You are completely in the dark." - Sherman

And, as long as this is the refrain, I will continue to address the problem and the need: "Repentance unto LIFE", and light.

Note: My point is that this mindset is widespread and runs deepest and is most lethal among leaders, beginning with the blending brothers, as the posts on this thread attest

[TLFisher]

Brother Lee was never wrong about anything that happened regarding the rebellion with John I. in the late 1980's.

No. Do your homework. Brother Lee is no longer with us. Brother John still is. There's a lot Brother Lee left out. Compare what Brother Lee said compared to what brother John wrote. There is discrepancy. Any responsible person can research and discern.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Terry

Brother Lee was never wrong about anything that happened regarding the rebellion with John I. in the late 1980's.

First, this is not a response to Terry. He just quoted the line from somewhere else.

The fact that Lee called it a rebellion is the first evidence of Lee's "wrong" concerning John I. That he refused to take the counsel to deal with his wayward son, most specifically by removing him from forced contact with any LRC member for any reason through his position with the LSM made Witness Lee an accomplice to Philip Lee's sins. He aided and abetted. And he knew of the problem from the late 70s. This was not some unheard of claim by one disgruntled LSM employee.

And the 16 points that BP and others called an attack on Lee and the "ministry" was no such thing. It simply clarified that the church was the church and the ministry was the ministry and that the ministry was for the church (as even Lee had so often taught) not the church for the ministry.

I would say that "Brother Lee" was not only wrong about something that happened concerning John I, but he was wrong about virtually every point. That little book FOTPR essentially lies about every material point.

And saying "Brother Lee" does not mean I question his position as a Christian brother, but that I see the use of the term with respect to Lee as a title with much similarity to what Jesus meant when he said to call no man "father." There is almost a reverence to his position that is grated on in their minds when I do not include the "brother." Their use reminds me of the way the people of Rock Ridge (think Blazing Saddles) would stop and look longingly to the distance and sang whenever Randolph Scott was mentioned.

[Cal]

As long as these people like Kangas and Sherman have position in this movement they will never change. If they do change, they will no longer have position in the movement. You can take that to the bank.

The problem with the LR is not some bad guys at the top. The problem is the movement itself. It is based on several unbiblical and evil principles which guarantee its corruption.

As a movement, it cannot be fixed. The only thing that can help the churches in the movement is to break away from the movement, establish autonomy, begin to fellowship with all Christians and receive healing from the corruption they've been inflicted with. That's the only hope.

The LR is over. It was over when it first started. There never was any hope for it, because it is based on being a unique, special subset of the Body of Christ, and the Lord will never honor such an attitude. He will allow that attitude to run its course of corruption because that's the only way these things get resolved, as history has always taught us.

Like individual Catholic parishes, individual LRCs may do well, because the Lord loves and honors genuine assemblies of believers.

But as a movement it is over. Leave the house to them as desolate and get on with looking forward to serve the Lord.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Terry, I'm not sure what you are saying.

When your basis for fellowship is publication of Living Stream's ministry, the recovery is not for just any Christian.
So next time you hear talk why there isn't much of an increase in the local churches, it shouldn't come to any surprise why. Just as the brother stated to you, I know a number of brothers and sisters that just don’t belong in the Lord’s recovery.

[Cal]

When the Lord says in Revelation, "Come out of her, my people," speaking of coming out of Babylon the Great Harlot, assuming Babylon represents a corrupt religious system, what do you think he is talking about?

Is he talking about leaving the church one is in, or is he telling churches to stop being tethered to evil systems? I think in many cases it must be the latter.

I went to a wedding this weekend in a Catholic church in Arlington, TX. It was a simple non-ornate parish and the presence of the Lord was there. The word of God was pure and clear. I saw no religious corruption.

Now, if the Lord is calling these people to leave Babylon, what is he telling them to do? Abandon their church and the Christians they have relationships with? I don't think so. That's not building, it's tearing down. I think He's calling them to cut ties with evil systems.

Same with LRC churches, I would think.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Igzy

When the Lord says in Revelation, "Come out of her, my people," speaking of coming out of Babylon the Great Harlot, assuming Babylon represents a corrupt religious system, what do you think he is talking about?

Thinking about my own experience, I can see how some localities could probably make this transition. But for many (most in the US?), the local culture is so compromised, so mixed up with the "Recovery culture".... At some point, you have to ask, what would it even mean for them to continue on together outside the Recovery? What is their identity outside of the program?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

When the Lord says in Revelation, "Come out of her, my people," speaking of coming out of Babylon the Great Harlot, assuming Babylon represents a corrupt religious system, what do you think he is talking about?

Is he talking about leaving the church one is in, or is he telling churches to stop being tethered to evil systems? I think in many cases it must be the latter.

I went to a wedding this weekend in a Catholic church in Arlington, TX. It was a simple non-ornate parish and the presence of the Lord was there. The word of God was pure and clear. I saw no religious corruption.

Now, if the Lord is calling these people to leave Babylon, what is he telling them to do? Abandon their church and the Christians they have relationships with? I don't think so. That's not building, it's tearing down. I think He's calling them to cut ties with evil systems.

Same with LRC churches, I would think.

Interesting question. I think this is what the book of Ruth says. On a superficial reading of the Bible you would think that the OT condemns Ruth because she is a Moabitess. But as Boaz points out you have a contradiction in the OT, Ruth is also a widow of an Israelite. So which verse do you heed? Boaz and the book of Ruth gives us the answer, Ruth is judged by her own heart. In her own heart she said "your people will be my people". Ruth decided that she was a widow of an Israelite first and foremost. This may be an example of "come out of her my people". We also chose in our heart to leave a corrupt, evil, worldly system. Since this is a symptom of fallen man it should be no surprise that religious systems can also become infected with a corrupt, evil system. So if you look at the Lord's letters to the churches in Revelation you can see that the only requirement he puts on those in the Catholic church is to be pure in heart and to not know the deep things of Satan.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Igzy

When the Lord says in Revelation, "Come out of her, my people," speaking of coming out of Babylon the Great Harlot, assuming Babylon represents a corrupt religious system, what do you think he is talking about?

Is he talking about leaving the church one is in, or is he telling churches to stop being tethered to evil systems? I think in many cases it must be the latter.

I went to a wedding this weekend in a Catholic church in Arlington, TX. It was a simple non-ornate parish and the presence of the Lord was there. The word of God was pure and clear. I saw no religious corruption.

Now, if the Lord is calling these people to leave Babylon, what is he telling them to do? Abandon their church and the Christians they have relationships with? I don't think so. That's not building, it's tearing down. I think He's calling them to cut ties with evil systems.

Same with LRC churches, I would think.

I wonder if it is a call to separate from the secular/political realm. While not entirely linked in the imagery, we have a political system represented by the beast, and something that seems to be sort of a melting pot called Babylon the Great. We can point to certain kinds of corruption in the churches from day one. But at some level, one of the most corrupting things was the acceptance by some of the State's offer of being "the religion." Rather than discussing the gnostic issue, they simply made it illegal. And to this day there has been a marriage of church and state within so many places. Even in America.

I believe that the call is not to come out of a church. But for the church to come out of its unholy alliances. To return to its position as the only true Christian Nation. I'm not saying that things beyond the political are not embedded in that call to "come out of her." But just like those 7 churches in Revelation 2 and 3, no one was called to "leave the church," but to overcome corruption. Even "that woman, Jezebel" was not a cause to leave the church.

In other words, it is not about people coming out of the church, but the church coming out of unholy alliances. Out of places of corruption.

And in the context of this thread, I sense that looking to the most vague writing in the NT to declare who/what/where to leave/come out of is sort of setting a different kind of sectarian mindset in place.

I appreciate your comment about the RCC wedding. There may be much to say about some kinds of corruption that they can overcome. But to read "Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots" as being the RCC and the Protestant groups that split out from it, while not entirely implausible, seems to be a stretch with a purpose. And that purpose is to somehow taint all the others without tainting your own group that is really just one more of the Protestant "harlot" groups (accepting their reading).

I would more nearly call the Moral Majority, or their successor "Christian right" groups as being the ones getting "into bed" with the world/government. The church needs to separate from those. I'm sure that there are other things.

[Indiana]

The following is more demonstration of the mentality, esp of leaders that plagues the Local Churches. I heard these things, and more in a shocking conversation with such a leader.


…LET ME FINISH MY OFFICIAL REMARKS HERE, YOUR LIBERTY TO CONTACT THOSE THAT HAVE BEEN QUARANTINED WHEN NOBODY ELSE SHOULD BE HAVING THAT LIBERTY….
WE REALLY KNOW A LOT OF DETAILS ABOUT A LOT OF THINGS FROM THESE OTHER BROTHERS, YOU DON’T EVEN KNOW, BUT YOU MAY KNOW, BUT THE POINT IS THIS, YOUR MINDSET IN ALL OF THIS, YOU BELIEVE ME, IS GOING TO BE THOROUGHLY REJECTED IN THE BODY OF CHRIST, THOROUGHLY REJECTED BY THE RECOVERY..NOW THAT’S WHAT’S IN YOUR MIND, THAT’S YOUR THOUGHT YOUR CONCEPT ABOUT IT ALL, THAT’S WHAT HAS TO GO..NOW WE HAVE HAD A LOT OF BROS WHO HAVE HAD PROBLEMS AND TOOK SOMETHING ON IN THEIR MIND AND THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE RIGHT BUT EVENTUALLY THEY MAYBE COULD SEE THAT THEY WERE NOT RIGHT AND THE LORD COULD SHINE AND THERE COULD BE SOME DEALING WITH THE LORD AND THERE COULD BE A TURN IN THE MIND. THAT’S WHAT REPENTANCE REALLY IS, IT MEANS THAT YOU’VE SEEN...WHEN THAT HAPPENS EVERYBODY KNOWS WHEN YOU COME AROUND PEOPLE. IF THAT DOESN’T HAPPEN, I DO BELIEVE THAT’S THE ONLY WAY YOU’RE GOING TO BE RESTORED..NOW IF THAT DOESN’T HAPPEN STEVE YOU WILL BE REJECTED WITH ALL OF YOUR CONCEPTS BECAUSE IT’S THE CONCEPTS WE CAN’T HANDLE..THE CONCEPTS HAVE TO GO ..IF YOU GO WITH THEM ITS UP TO YOU AND ITS UP TO THE LORD’S MERCY, BECAUSE I DO BELIEVE THAT YOU BELIEVE FULLY THAT YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THIS, ALL OF THIS. I BELIEVE THAT YOU ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT IT. BUT NOBODY ELSE THINKS YOU ARE RIGHT EXCEPT FOR THESE PEOPLE WE QUARANTINED.

(He had said before this: NOW THIS IS THE WAY I FEEL ABOUT IT. YOU MAY DISAGREE AND I’M SURE YOU DO...LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING UNOFFICIALLY, STEVE YOU MENTIONED IN YOUR LETTER THAT SOME FEEL RESPECTFULLY THAT WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS NOBLE., THEN YOU LISTED KEN UNGER, JOHN INGALLS AND BILL MALLON, YET IT WAS A WHO’S WHO OF THE QUARANTINED BROTHERS.)

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Indiana

The following is more demonstration of the mentality, esp of leaders that plagues the Local Churches. I heard these things, and more in a shocking conversation with such a leader.


…LET ME FINISH MY OFFICIAL REMARKS HERE, YOUR LIBERTY TO CONTACT THOSE THAT HAVE BEEN QUARANTINED WHEN NOBODY ELSE SHOULD BE HAVING THAT LIBERTY….
WE REALLY KNOW A LOT OF DETAILS ABOUT A LOT OF THINGS FROM THESE OTHER BROTHERS, YOU DON’T EVEN KNOW, BUT YOU MAY KNOW, BUT THE POINT IS THIS, YOUR MINDSET IN ALL OF THIS, YOU BELIEVE ME, IS GOING TO BE THOROUGHLY REJECTED IN THE BODY OF CHRIST, THOROUGHLY REJECTED BY THE RECOVERY..NOW THAT’S WHAT’S IN YOUR MIND, THAT’S YOUR THOUGHT YOUR CONCEPT ABOUT IT ALL, THAT’S WHAT HAS TO GO..NOW WE HAVE HAD A LOT OF BROS WHO HAVE HAD PROBLEMS AND TOOK SOMETHING ON IN THEIR MIND AND THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE RIGHT BUT EVENTUALLY THEY MAYBE COULD SEE THAT THEY WERE NOT RIGHT AND THE LORD COULD SHINE AND THERE COULD BE SOME DEALING WITH THE LORD AND THERE COULD BE A TURN IN THE MIND. THAT’S WHAT REPENTANCE REALLY IS, IT MEANS THAT YOU’VE SEEN...WHEN THAT HAPPENS EVERYBODY KNOWS WHEN YOU COME AROUND PEOPLE. IF THAT DOESN’T HAPPEN, I DO BELIEVE THAT’S THE ONLY WAY YOU’RE GOING TO BE RESTORED..NOW IF THAT DOESN’T HAPPEN STEVE YOU WILL BE REJECTED WITH ALL OF YOUR CONCEPTS BECAUSE IT’S THE CONCEPTS WE CAN’T HANDLE..THE CONCEPTS HAVE TO GO ..IF YOU GO WITH THEM ITS UP TO YOU AND ITS UP TO THE LORD’S MERCY, BECAUSE I DO BELIEVE THAT YOU BELIEVE FULLY THAT YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THIS, ALL OF THIS. I BELIEVE THAT YOU ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT IT. BUT NOBODY ELSE THINKS YOU ARE RIGHT EXCEPT FOR THESE PEOPLE WE QUARANTINED.

(He had said before this: NOW THIS IS THE WAY I FEEL ABOUT IT. YOU MAY DISAGREE AND I’M SURE YOU DO...LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING UNOFFICIALLY, STEVE YOU MENTIONED IN YOUR LETTER THAT SOME FEEL RESPECTFULLY THAT WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS NOBLE., THEN YOU LISTED KEN UNGER, JOHN INGALLS AND BILL MALLON, YET IT WAS A WHO’S WHO OF THE QUARANTINED BROTHERS.)

This brother reminds me of Jimmy Swaggart, and Ted Haggard, who actually were preaching to themselves, about their hidden issues and short-comings.

His words are eye poppin revealing of the mindset in the Living Stream Ministry churches, that they actually believe they are it, and have a special omniscience that all others in Christendom aren't privy to.

For those reasons the Living Stream Ministry churches and their leaders shouldn't be taken seriously. They claim what is not true, and elevate themselves beyond what they ought. Let them live in their little bubble.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Indiana

The following is more demonstration of the mentality, esp of leaders that plagues the Local Churches. I heard these things, and more in a shocking conversation with such a leader.


…LET ME FINISH MY OFFICIAL REMARKS HERE, YOUR LIBERTY TO CONTACT THOSE THAT HAVE BEEN QUARANTINED WHEN NOBODY ELSE SHOULD BE HAVING THAT LIBERTY….
WE REALLY KNOW A LOT OF DETAILS ABOUT A LOT OF THINGS FROM THESE OTHER BROTHERS, YOU DON’T EVEN KNOW, BUT YOU MAY KNOW, BUT THE POINT IS THIS, YOUR MINDSET IN ALL OF THIS, YOU BELIEVE ME, IS GOING TO BE THOROUGHLY REJECTED IN THE BODY OF CHRIST, THOROUGHLY REJECTED BY THE RECOVERY..NOW THAT’S WHAT’S IN YOUR MIND, THAT’S YOUR THOUGHT YOUR CONCEPT ABOUT IT ALL, THAT’S WHAT HAS TO GO..NOW WE HAVE HAD A LOT OF BROS WHO HAVE HAD PROBLEMS AND TOOK SOMETHING ON IN THEIR MIND AND THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE RIGHT BUT EVENTUALLY THEY MAYBE COULD SEE THAT THEY WERE NOT RIGHT AND THE LORD COULD SHINE AND THERE COULD BE SOME DEALING WITH THE LORD AND THERE COULD BE A TURN IN THE MIND. THAT’S WHAT REPENTANCE REALLY IS, IT MEANS THAT YOU’VE SEEN...WHEN THAT HAPPENS EVERYBODY KNOWS WHEN YOU COME AROUND PEOPLE. IF THAT DOESN’T HAPPEN, I DO BELIEVE THAT’S THE ONLY WAY YOU’RE GOING TO BE RESTORED..NOW IF THAT DOESN’T HAPPEN STEVE YOU WILL BE REJECTED WITH ALL OF YOUR CONCEPTS BECAUSE IT’S THE CONCEPTS WE CAN’T HANDLE..THE CONCEPTS HAVE TO GO ..IF YOU GO WITH THEM ITS UP TO YOU AND ITS UP TO THE LORD’S MERCY, BECAUSE I DO BELIEVE THAT YOU BELIEVE FULLY THAT YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THIS, ALL OF THIS. I BELIEVE THAT YOU ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT IT. BUT NOBODY ELSE THINKS YOU ARE RIGHT EXCEPT FOR THESE PEOPLE WE QUARANTINED.

(He had said before this: NOW THIS IS THE WAY I FEEL ABOUT IT. YOU MAY DISAGREE AND I’M SURE YOU DO...LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING UNOFFICIALLY, STEVE YOU MENTIONED IN YOUR LETTER THAT SOME FEEL RESPECTFULLY THAT WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS NOBLE., THEN YOU LISTED KEN UNGER, JOHN INGALLS AND BILL MALLON, YET IT WAS A WHO’S WHO OF THE QUARANTINED BROTHERS.)

Can we have some background info on this post ... who is talking to who?

Can you also remove the CAPS LOCK? It is so hard for me to read this.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Can we have some background info on this post ... who is talking to who?

As I read, text in caps is the brother speaking to Steve.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Indiana

The following is more demonstration of the mentality, esp of leaders that plagues the Local Churches. I heard these things, and more in a shocking conversation with such a leader.


…LET ME FINISH MY OFFICIAL REMARKS HERE, YOUR LIBERTY TO CONTACT THOSE THAT HAVE BEEN QUARANTINED WHEN NOBODY ELSE SHOULD BE HAVING THAT LIBERTY….
WE REALLY KNOW A LOT OF DETAILS ABOUT A LOT OF THINGS FROM THESE OTHER BROTHERS, YOU DON’T EVEN KNOW, BUT YOU MAY KNOW, BUT THE POINT IS THIS, YOUR MINDSET IN ALL OF THIS, YOU BELIEVE ME, IS GOING TO BE THOROUGHLY REJECTED IN THE BODY OF CHRIST, THOROUGHLY REJECTED BY THE RECOVERY..NOW THAT’S WHAT’S IN YOUR MIND, THAT’S YOUR THOUGHT YOUR CONCEPT ABOUT IT ALL, THAT’S WHAT HAS TO GO..NOW WE HAVE HAD A LOT OF BROS WHO HAVE HAD PROBLEMS AND TOOK SOMETHING ON IN THEIR MIND AND THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE RIGHT BUT EVENTUALLY THEY MAYBE COULD SEE THAT THEY WERE NOT RIGHT AND THE LORD COULD SHINE AND THERE COULD BE SOME DEALING WITH THE LORD AND THERE COULD BE A TURN IN THE MIND. THAT’S WHAT REPENTANCE REALLY IS, IT MEANS THAT YOU’VE SEEN...WHEN THAT HAPPENS EVERYBODY KNOWS WHEN YOU COME AROUND PEOPLE. IF THAT DOESN’T HAPPEN, I DO BELIEVE THAT’S THE ONLY WAY YOU’RE GOING TO BE RESTORED..NOW IF THAT DOESN’T HAPPEN STEVE YOU WILL BE REJECTED WITH ALL OF YOUR CONCEPTS BECAUSE IT’S THE CONCEPTS WE CAN’T HANDLE..THE CONCEPTS HAVE TO GO ..IF YOU GO WITH THEM ITS UP TO YOU AND ITS UP TO THE LORD’S MERCY, BECAUSE I DO BELIEVE THAT YOU BELIEVE FULLY THAT YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THIS, ALL OF THIS. I BELIEVE THAT YOU ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT IT. BUT NOBODY ELSE THINKS YOU ARE RIGHT EXCEPT FOR THESE PEOPLE WE QUARANTINED.

(He had said before this: NOW THIS IS THE WAY I FEEL ABOUT IT. YOU MAY DISAGREE AND I’M SURE YOU DO...LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING UNOFFICIALLY, STEVE YOU MENTIONED IN YOUR LETTER THAT SOME FEEL RESPECTFULLY THAT WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS NOBLE., THEN YOU LISTED KEN UNGER, JOHN INGALLS AND BILL MALLON, YET IT WAS A WHO’S WHO OF THE QUARANTINED BROTHERS.)

This is not true! I was not quarantined! I left!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This is not true! I was not quarantined! I left!

Some brothers, however, refused to leave without an "escort."

[RollingStone]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Some brothers, however, refused to leave without an "escort."

If you mean shown where the door is I understand "escort" Previous to my LC experience I was in another setting I was told that my wife and I were servants of Beelzabub by the pastor and his coaster wife after they had stayed up praying all night about us. My wife sobbed uncontrolably as the spirit with in me was jumping up and down with joy. As I was going WOW! inside this is what the religous leaders said to Jesus. a few weeks later when I stood up for us against the pastor and his wife and 15 elders at a meeting where we were falsly accused of things I knew were not true. Again my wife was sobbing but the co-pastor wife spoke a little too much and some of the truth slipped out. Upon realizing his wife had mispoke he told us we knew where the door was. Praise the Lord! I didn't let it hit me in the butt.

My point is from my experience this happens all over the place not just in the LSM situation. I met a man who had been rejected by the Reformed Brethren Church here over 45 yrs ago,, When I met him he was about 75 and living in a small house big enough for 1 person that he had built next to the home he had shared with his wife and 7 children before he questioned some of the things that the authorities in the Reformed Brethrens doctrine. They proceeded to inform his wife that if she was intimate with her husband she would go to hell. So she kicked him out of the bedroom. Then they told her that if she ate meals with him that she would go to hell. You already can figure out what happened. Then she was told if he had a relationship with his children then they would go to hell. So he built a tiny house just for him next to his home, wife and kids and he suffered for the next 40 yrs being reject by them. Of course the wife benefited from the approval of her stand from the church as they also rejected him for 40 yrs.

He went to the church leaders and begged them to allow him to have his wife and family back, they refused. He went to Reformed Brethren Churches all over the USA and Canada looking for someone to help but they refused as they didn't want to get involved in a local matter. He went to the courts legally to try to get his wife and family back they refused to rule on the matter as they felt that this was a church matter and didn't want to mix church and state. He protested to the point of getting arrested and put in jail for trying to get support and understanding from the community for his plight. He did get his story in the local newspaper.

He showed me and gave me a book he had authored about his story which I still have. The book is not distributed yet as his wish is that it be distributed after his death. I admired this man for suffering so long and enduring so long, without the affection of his wife, children and community for 40 yrs. He still loves his wife and desires to be with her. At that time I shared Christ with him and talked to him about having fellowship with us in the LC. He asked me a few questions about us and I figured out these were the questions that applied to the doctrines that he believed and were what the Reformed Brethren Church believed and I figured out after how they had mistreated him he still believed in their belief system and in his heart he still viewed himself as a Reformed Brethren. He never did come and meet with us. Jesus said if they don't receive you to shake the dust off your sandels and move on. I used to think this was applied to those who didn't believe the gospel, now I am considering if it doesn't apply to those who put religion and their work above their compassion and love for all the members of the body. I have been treated like a leper, called Beelzabub, quaranteed, seen people act like they are demon possesed. Lord Jesus I think I need a new pair of shoes!

[Indiana]

The same conversation continues in these two paragraphs, showing only the LC elder speaking.


I WILL GUARANTEE YOU THAT YOUR MINDSET IS GOING TO BE THOROUGHLY AND UTTERLY REJECTED BY THE RECOVERY. THIS IS NOT OFFICIAL, THIS IS OFF THE RECORD, BECAUSE I WANT TO TELL YOU SOMETHING STEVE, I DON’T WANT TO SEE YOU OUT OF THE RECOVERY.

…WHAT MAKES YOU THINK IT IS YOUR PLACE TO CONTACT THOSE BROTHERS. WELL ITS NOT YOUR PLACE TO DO THAT. JOHN INGALLS NEEDS TO COME BACK AND SETTLE MATTERS WITH THE SOUTHERN CAL BROS. HE AND ALL THOSE BROS. THEY KNOW WHAT HE DID DOWN THERE, WHAT HE SAID, THEY KNOW WHAT JOHN AND BILL MALLON SAID WHAT KEN UNGER SAID AND WHAT AL KNOCH SAID….LISTEN THEY ARE ALL QUARANTINED, ITS JUST NOT OFFICIAL. WHEN THEY QUARANTINED JOHN, WE SPOKE VERBALLY, ITS LIKE IN EGYPT WHEN THEY KILLED THE FIRSTBORN? ALL THEY WANTED TO DO WAS DEAL WITH JOHN AND IT BECOMES TRUE WITH ALL OF THEM, INCLUDING JOSEPH FUNG AND JOHN SO…

He seems not to understand the quarantine. His last three sentences don't make sense to me. In fact, throughout our conversation I realized he did not know what he was talking about. That is because LSM does not educate the elders according to facts of the late eighties turmoil; rather, they keep them in darkness according to their agenda.

Concerning the Quarantine, clearly four men were q'd. And this, according to the misconstrued understanding of 198 uneducated leaders from 45 CA churches. Their letter of Q goes into "detail" about each of the four.

http://www.twoturmoils.com/quarantin...teeighties.pdf

1990 Letter of Quarantine excerpt:
"Since the fall of 1987, the churches here have suffered under the dissension and rebellion led by four brothers who were once among us: Joseph Fung, John So, Bill Mallon, and John Ingalls. In the beginning many things were done and said by these brothers in a way that was both subtle and hidden. As a result, a number of saints were deceived and thus did not know the true nature of what was taking place. Today, however, there is no question about where these brothers stand. We do not like to see any more of the saints damaged by opening themselves innocently to the words spoke by these brothers.

Therefore, we feel that we must warn the churches of the true standing of these four and their followers.
These four brothers 1) have denied the standing of the churches in the Lord’s recovery..."

[/COLOR]http://www.twoturmoils.com/quarantin...teeighties.pdf