spirit, soul and body

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Today, the role of elder has much less to do with shepherding, than it does with "working together with headquarters." One example is the aspect of counseling. Elders have gone to meetings for decades, yet have no clue how to shepherd or counsel troubled marriages. The results are so many broken homes. Some of the BB's have gone on record to say that any marital or family help we may seek is just "chicken soup for the soul."

For problems of the body one may see a doctor.
For problems of the mind one may visit a psychiatrist.
Yet only God can solve the problems of the spirit.

Anonymous, The Mystery of Human Life

Not exactly a ringing endorsement of the "soft sciences" but I'd say it implies that there's a role for a little chicken soup for the soul when the soul is sick.

These people surely don't believe that their faith in Christ will prevent an appendectomy and if you're a schitzophrenic or actively suicidal, you certainly can't just rely upon the process of eventual transformation to take care of that for you. It's frankly just religious superstition for them to reject even simple counseling as beneath them simply because it is primarily focused on the problems of the mind and the soul. This was a problem for me as well at one point but being fully human is definitely a part of being a normal Christian.

"O Lord Jesus!" will not immediately remove either my bunions or my phobias. Try it and see! If either causes me significant problem moving forward with the Lord, I'd best deal with them as best I can so that I can again move forward with the Lord.

And a counselor with the leading of the Spirit and the knowledge of the Word? How valuable is that? Folks, that's just the reality of being an elder!

We don't want to be those building with wood, hay and stubble, for sure, but there are materials of gold, silver AND precious stone to build with.

Some teach and practice as if the only building material were "gold" but if a family ends up in a heap of collapse at the end of your kind of building effort, I'd say that was pretty good evidence that the wrong material was being used in that application.

I'll let you decide if it was really gold or only wood.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by YP0534

For problems of the body one may see a doctor.
For problems of the mind one may visit a psychiatrist.
Yet only God can solve the problems of the spirit.

Anonymous, The Mystery of Human Life

This stupid quote fits into the "tripartite" theology of LSM, and it encapsulates a whole lot of error into a marketable product for LC consumption.

I know one dear couple who decided to seek psychiatric help for their marriage, i.e. "problems of the mind." They decided that Christian counseling was a little "too biased" for them, so they sought out "God-less" counsel for their "needs." I believe close to thousands, literally, took hospitality from them over the years, while they served the work and the church in Cleveland. Today their marriage is over. An elder once told me "the church doesn't have any responsibility for their situation."

Andrew Yu, who authored that booklet, was never a shepherd, only a ministry zealot.

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This stupid quote fits into the "tripartite" theology of LSM, and it encapsulates a whole lot of error into a marketable product for LC consumption.

Ohio,

I'm confused by your rejoinder here. YP's use of MOHL's little tripartite quote was to show a contradiction between some of the BB who now say all psychological counselling is worthless ... at least I think that's why he used it.

Now you come telling of a family who tried counselling, it appears to have failed them (as did the church), and you find the three-part quote stupid.

What exactly did you mean?


SC

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

YP's use of MOHL's little tripartite quote was to show a contradiction between some of the BB who now say all psychological counselling is worthless ... at least I think that's why he used it.

Yes, that's why I used it. (Was I that opaque?)

At first I thought that it seemed that Ohio's rejoinder concerned (at least in part) the risks of seeking assistance from secular counseling. I'm not here to promote that specifically but a single or even many bad results doesn't undo the good that has been done in many other contexts. Just because some surgeons might kill you if you go to them doesn't mean surgeons are bad. Right, Ohio?

But on re-reading, I'm thinking that maybe Ohio mostly meant to say that the compartmentalization of human beings into these tidy categories has been used too frequently as an escape clause for anyone who might otherwise bear responsibility to see that human beings were healthy and proper before God and their fellow man (or woman, as the case may be.)

Did I get it right the second time, Ohio?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by YP0534

Yes, that's why I used it. (Was I that opaque?)

At first I thought that it seemed that Ohio's rejoinder concerned (at least in part) the risks of seeking assistance from secular counseling. I'm not here to promote that specifically but a single or even many bad results doesn't undo the good that has been done in many other contexts. Just because some surgeons might kill you if you go to them doesn't mean surgeons are bad. Right, Ohio?

But on re-reading, I'm thinking that maybe Ohio mostly meant to say that the compartmentalization of human beings into these tidy categories has been used too frequently as an escape clause for anyone who might otherwise bear responsibility to see that human beings were healthy and proper before God and their fellow man (or woman, as the case may be.)

Did I get it right the second time, Ohio?

Both are right.

That quote was used by my ones I love as incentive to seek help outside of Christ and/or bible-centered counseling. They had wrongly "compartmentalized" themselves and their marriage into thinking a certain part God could help and another part God could not. This is a bit different from going to a surgeon for a broken arm. Matters of the soul and spirit cannot be so easily dissected.

Sorry if it seemed I am against the views of tripartite man. I basically agree with that, but not to the extremes. Is it not similar to the BARM discussions about God Himself "distinct and separate" eventually leading to tri-theism? Segmenting our soul's needs to psychiatry in lieu of godly Christian marriage counseling cannot be a good thing. We humans are more "one" than "three" and the help we seek should reflect that. Christian counselors do not compartmentalize the soul and spirit in this way.

Obviously this family did not find marriage counselors in the LC, and this has always troubled me. Elders "job descriptions" are defined by the ministry, and the ministry demeans counseling as "chicken soup" or other pejoratives such as "self-help." The result is that many families suffer. Families that have devoted many years to church service.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is a bit different from going to a surgeon for a broken arm. Matters of the soul and spirit cannot be so easily dissected.

Brother, I do respect your opinion in it but let me assure you from certain personal experience that for at least some problems of the mind, such as delusional paranoid schitzophrenia, there is the need for someone with sufficient skill in dealing with that part of our being in particular and soul and spirit are so easy to distinguish in that case.

I would suggest, however, that one should be wise and go to the right sort of specialist for whatever the ailment is. You should not consult your opthamologist about your bunions. And for a believing married couple to take their marriage troubles to a secular psychiatrist is probably a similar mistake.

My point in it, however, was ulitimately to reinforce your statement and your view.

Helping troubled couples through the practical problems of their marriages is probably one of the best things a real elder could apply himself (maybe HERself?) too. The situation of trust offers unique opportunities for the genuine ministry of Christ to touch the broken and needful people. To systematically avoid undertaking that aspect of the responsibility of being an elder is yet another item in the column of "not quite right" in the Local Church that even today still attempts to maintain a fascade that EVERYTHING is ALWAYS right among them.

To avoid treating the ailments of the soul because one day it will be healed through transformation is the same superstitious thing as waiting to have your broken arm set because one day you will be glorified. And, surely, treatments of the soul by knowledgable believers is to be preferred to most of the secular notions that dominate the mental health field.

[KSA]

Originally Posted by YP0534

Brother, I do respect your opinion in it but let me assure you from certain personal experience that for at least some problems of the mind, such as delusional paranoid schitzophrenia, there is the need for someone with sufficient skill in dealing with that part of our being in particular and soul and spirit are so easy to distinguish in that case.

To distinguish is not always too easy. Schizophrenia might be an indication of demon oppression. Medication will not help here. But, of course, an experienced man should deal with this.

On a number of cases, a specialist is not available. For example, in Russia it is very uncommon to go to a consultant. We do not have many, and they are basically unbelievers. Therefore, encounters are in great demand, and they really help much. You'll be surprised how much psycho problems are caused by spiritual causes, like unforgiveness, inherited curses, witchcraft, occultism, etc.

[KSA]

Glad to hear this, Paul. You are rare exception.