Infallibiliy of the Bible?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

I admittedly rushed the part about the "Greek stuff coming later."

Hellenization ran rampant through Judaism for hundreds of years BC, creating all kinds of crazy variants of "scripture". The job of the canonizers was to identify and remove Greek-influenced texts from the Bible.

Did they do a perfect job? No. Ecclesiastes probably should have been discarded, along with parts of Proverbs.

And when Jesus said "Sophia is justified by her children", it makes me pause and wonder if He really said that. But, He was probably being sarcastic, and we need an emoji indicating that in the Greek.
...

What does this do to the bedrock of Christian Theology...that the Bible is the infallible Word of God? What do Paul and James have to say...especially James.

Rather than take it "off topic," I'm opening a new topic, responding to partial statements in your post from "No place like hell" (above). You make interesting points about the scriptures...what should be canonized and what maybe shouldn't have been included.

That brings us to Paul and James differ and justification by faith v. works.

From Paul:
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (works)

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Then there's this little jewel from James:
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

We all heard WL's opinion that the book of James should not be in the Bible...was he right?

Is it possible (likely) that God allowed the book of James to be canonized for a specific reason? We are told several places to "test all things".

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

There is some good stuff in James, but v. 2:24 is a showstopper.

Nell

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Nell

What does this do to the bedrock of Christian Theology...that the Bible is the infallible Word of God? What do Paul and James have to say...especially James.

Rather than take it "off topic," I'm opening a new topic, responding to partial statements in your post from "No place like hell" (above). You make interesting points about the scriptures...what should be canonized and what maybe shouldn't have been included.

That brings us to Paul and James differ and justification by faith v. works.

[dot dot dot]

We all heard WL's opinion that the book of James should not be in the Bible...was he right?

Is it possible (likely) that God allowed the book of James to be canonized for a specific reason? We are told several places to "test all things".

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

There is some good stuff in James, but v. 2:24 is a showstopper.

Nell

Nell, I respect your bravery, and willingness to engage, in opening this thread. I will try not to bloviate too much, but will attempt to summarize my experience in this matter.

As part of the LR, and before and after, it was pushed upon me the infallibility doctrine. Many churches, including the LR, include a statement about infallibility as the NUMBER ONE item of faith. As if we must agree on that before we go on to the next statements.

As a youth, when I was exposed to 'alternate views', I felt duty-bound to defend belief #1. It was a fine and glorious day when I realized that I could question the text without losing my faith.

In fact, my faith has strengthened, not lessened, after this decision.

So for what makes UntoHim extremely nervous is exactly what saved me from walking away.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Nell, I respect your bravery, and willingness to engage, in opening this thread. I will try to bloviate too much, but I will try to summarize my experience in this matter.

As part of the LR, and before and after, it was pushed upon me the infallibility doctrine. Many churches, including the LR, include a statement about infallibility as the NUMBER ONE item of faith. As if we must agree on that before we go on to the next statements.

As a youth, when I was exposed to 'alternate views', I felt duty-bound to defend belief #1. It was a fine and glorious day when I realized that I could question the text without losing my faith.

In fact, my faith has strengthened, not lessened, after this decision.

So for what makes UntoHim extremely nervous is exactly what saved me from walking away.

I don't really mean to set out to prove the Bible is fallible. I can't say that I believe that. But, I will just look for a simple (scriptural) explanation of the apparent contradiction between the verse in James' book vs. the verses in Paul's books.

I'm assuredly not the first to come across these two verses...side by side...and scratched my head? Am I? Surely the "church fathers" have noticed an apparent contradiction.

I'll pick just one of Paul's verses: Romans 3:28 and James' showstopper.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (works)
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

We certainly don't question that God Himself, as the Holy Spirit, is indeed infallible.

Nell

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Nell;108451

I'll pick just one of Paul's verses: Romans 3:28 and James' showstopper.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that [B

a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law[/B]. (works)
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Nell

Paul also said this just a few verses earlier:

2:6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

and again:

2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them. 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

So before we pick on James too much, we need to figger this out!

[countmeworthy]

My quick take on James is it is not written to us, the non Jewish believers. And while most here might think I am nuts for what I am about to write, after some digging I am good with my theory which I am about to share.

James addresses the 12 tribes (of Israel) in the very beginning of his letter:

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

It’s not written to the gentile church! The gentile church knew nothing of the 12 tribes of Jacob/Israel. And Most if not everyone here did not grow up Jewish, never went to synagogue.

So in James 2:24 where it says Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only., I believe it is written to the Jews living during the tribulation. During that time, people are not going to be living like we are today. I can’t imagine how it’s going to look but just like in the days of Moses, and during the millennium reign, they are going to have to follow the law.

It could also have been written to the Jewish converts who did not know how to communicate with God the Holy Spirit on a personal level.

I think the reason there is so much controversy and confusion over this book is because it is not written to us, though we certainly can learn a thing or 2 from James.

Same goes for the book of Hebrews. Though I have learned and grown so much from that book, who is it addressed to ? The converted HEBREWS!! But I can honestly say it is written to us too, at least to me,

The point is, the letter is addressed to the converted HEBREWS.

Why does the gentile church need to know that it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Hebrews 10:4 ?

The converted gentiles knew nothing of the sacrifices, burnt offerings, peace offerings etc. that the Israelites/ Jewish people had to abide by in the OT. When I got saved, in fact all of us, I /we learned what the Blood of Jesus did for us and it’s power over our lives. I knew nothing about the sacrifices the Israelites made. I only knew of the 10 commandments and the parting of the Red Sea thanks to the movie !

The converted Jews (poor fellows) had to learn to walk by the Spirit all of a sudden. Had to learn to trust in the Spirit of Jesus.

They could eat “unclean” food (pork for example) if they wanted to. They had to learn to trust in the cleansing Blood of Jesus not the blood of bulls and goats. They did not have to go to an earthly high priest for Jesus was now their and ours Great High Priest.

I believe many Jews are going to be reading the book of Hebrews during the trib too. IF it’s available. Who knows what it’s going to be like.

Anyway, I am glad I am understanding that the Bible is written for us all to read but it is not all written TO US. It is very clear we can and have learned a lot from the OT but it is more historical and prophetic. It has cleared up a lot of questions and confusion for me.

That’s my take for whatever it’s worth.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

My quick take on James is it is not written to us, the non Jewish believers. And while most here might think I am nuts for what I am about to write, after some digging I am good with my theory which I am about to share.

James addresses the 12 tribes (of Israel) in the very beginning of his letter:

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
...
That’s my take for whatever it’s worth.

Thanks Carol, for your thoughtful response. I understand what you're saying. Yet the question remains. What would the good Bereans have to say about what James said...even to the 12 tribes. It has to be true, right?

From James' perspective, are believers justified by faith, by works, or is justification a combo-deal? It's generally accepted that the fruit of justification by faith will be good works. Yet, you can't say one thing to one group and another thing to someone else...can you?

From a recent Watchman Wednesday:
"Absolute loyalty to the Truth is a matter that must have priority in the life of every Christian . . . . It is possible, and indeed it not infrequently happens, that a (Christian) modifies the Truth because he is influenced by men, or by circumstances, or by his own desires. The truth is absolute, and it demands undeviating loyalty of all men under all circumstances. All we possess we can sacrifice if need be, but the Truth we dare not sacrifice. We must never seek to bend it to our purpose, but must always bow to it."
The Normal Christian Worker, Chapter 1, Watchman Nee

Is James 2:24 true? "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

My quick take on James is it is not written to us, the non Jewish believers. And while most here might think I am nuts for what I am about to write, after some digging I am good with my theory which I am about to share.

James addresses the 12 tribes (of Israel) in the very beginning of his letter: James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

It’s not written to the gentile church! The gentile church knew nothing of the 12 tribes of Jacob/Israel. And Most if not everyone here did not grow up Jewish, never went to synagogue.

So in James 2:24 where it says Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only., .

Anyway, I am glad I am understanding that the Bible is written for us all to read but it is not all written TO US. It is very clear we can and have learned a lot from the OT but it is more historical and prophetic. It has cleared up a lot of questions and confusion for me.

I would also endorse these principles. Like myself, countmeworthy has friends in Pentecostal churches who seem to apply the OT to the church. The latest here is to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles in the church.

Going back to James' word here, "by works a man is justified," my question is always, "what kind of works are you referring to?" Is this not a question that must be addressed? So much confusion surrounds this one word "works." WL also confused the use of this word, and its counterpart "dead works."

Let me say more. If by "works" James means circumcision, kosher, Sabbath, Passover, holidays, etc., then I would say "no, we are NOT justified by works." See Acts 14-15. But, if by "works" James means loving others, preaching the Gospel, hospitality, assembling, etc., then I would agree. If there is none of this in our lives, then you can be sure that our faith is dead. Can we even claim to be justified?

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Anyway, I am glad I am understanding that the Bible is written for us all to read but it is not all written TO US.

Indeed.

And I believe the word of God(the Bible) is infallible, but men's doctrines and teachings could be wrong.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Nell

We all heard WL's opinion that the book of James should not be in the Bible...was he right?

No, the whole premise for his argument is the opening lines of the letter. James writes to the 12 tribes and witness Lee says he didn’t see the full vision of the gentiles also being grafted in (I’m paraphrasing). James wrote this letter before what is known as the Council in Jerusalem which occurs in Acts 15. The early church was still learning, and that council is an example of the learnings. It settled the pondering question of, do gentiles need to become Jews to be Christians.

Also, James didn’t receive the vision that Peter received in Acts 10 which was one of the main components to the acts 15 decision.

Just because James addresses just the Jews and not the gentiles is a weak argument and in my opinion doesn’t discredit the rest of the book.

James didn’t fit into the God’s Economy framework WL interpreted the Bible from, which is in hindsight a red flag. If your predisposed box you try to fit the Bible into doesn’t fit the Bible, maybe the box is wrong.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Zezima

No, the whole premise for his argument is the opening lines of the letter. James writes to the 12 tribes and . . .

Also, James didn’t receive the vision that Peter received in Acts 10 which was one of the main components to the acts 15 decision.

Just because James addresses just the Jews and not the gentiles is a weak argument and in my opinion doesn’t discredit the rest of the book.

James didn’t fit into the God’s Economy framework WL interpreted the Bible from, which is in hindsight a red flag. If your predisposed box you try to fit the Bible into doesn’t fit the Bible, maybe the box is wrong.

I think Z summarized the bulk of the issues well.

To me, the real issue is that outside of the Gospels and Acts, the writings were really not written to everyone. Not saying they were not to be applicable or meaningful to everyone, but that they were writing to a specific audience, not to everyone. And don't forget, outside of occasional references to the Gentiles (as dogs) and the Samaritans, the Gospels themselves do not really address anyone outside of Israel. Should we distrust them for it? Of course not.

As for the James v Paul controversy, it is really evidence of the problem of using the term "infallibility" to discuss it. What do we mean by infallible? That the original writings (which we no longer have) are perfect, but not clearly anything else? That our understanding of what the words we read (in our language, possibly with the help of biblical language scholars) mean is right and therefore part of what is infallible? (Has anyone bothered to see what Paul was telling those various letter recipients to do — works — as a result of the spiritual things that he told them? I think he might have written James' letter for him if he had half the inclination.)

If infallibility only applies to the words as originally written in their native language (at that time), then it is not very meaningful. We have so little of those writings. Even if you apply all the presumptions about how the scribes copied and recopied, when you get to the Septuagint, which was in Greek rather than Hebrew and/or Aramaic, there are passages that really do not say the same thing. Or hinted that it was the "breath" in the words that mattered, not the specific words.

In any case, it is an argument of faith, not of structure, grammar, linguistics, and so on.

Seems that if you believe in the God of Abrahan, Isaac, Jacob, Peter, James, John, etc., then the bible is what it says it is. It is "scripture," comes from the breath of God, and is profitable for teaching . . . . It is really not important that we determine that everything it says is literally, historically, scientifically, etc. true as we know things to be. It is only important that we approach it as the revelation of God in the manner in which he revealed himself. And that was in stages over centuries.

The whole James v Paul controversy is what being dogmatic about infallibility produces. It layers one set of presumptions about the scripture over it and declares anything that even hints at being different heretical. Paul seems to preach faith while James seems to contradict Paul and preach works. That is only true in an understanding of the scripture in which there is no place for works. Further, there is nothing in the letter from James denying that the salvation we receive is not based on the work of Jesus and not ourselves. But rather, having claimed to receive that salvation, the works we do, or fail to do, say a lot about our claim to having actually had faith to receive that salvation.

Most of the time that I see any actual use of "infallibility," it is not in reference to some doctrine about what the Bible is, but in reference to it as supporting doctrine X over doctrine Y. The "infallible" Word of God supports doctrine X, not doctrine Y. And in making that claim, the whole "infallibility of the Bible" ceases to be about the origins of the Bible and becomes about who has the correct understanding of the Bible.

While I do have a problem with any who want to claim real faith in Christ while dismissing part or all of the Bible as irrelevant, the understanding of or belief about the Bible is not a prerequisite for faith.

The only real infallibility of the scripture is that it correctly reveals God through people who were inspired to write (or tell) what was revealed to them at their time and place.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Nell

What does this do to the bedrock of Christian Theology...that the Bible is the infallible Word of God? What do Paul and James have to say...especially James.

Rather than take it "off topic," I'm opening a new topic, responding to partial statements in your post from "No place like hell" (above). You make interesting points about the scriptures...what should be canonized and what maybe shouldn't have been included.

That brings us to Paul and James differ and justification by faith v. works.

From Paul:
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (works)

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Then there's this little jewel from James:
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

We all heard WL's opinion that the book of James should not be in the Bible...was he right?

Is it possible (likely) that God allowed the book of James to be canonized for a specific reason? We are told several places to "test all things".

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

There is some good stuff in James, but v. 2:24 is a showstopper.

Nell

The Times They Are A-Changin'! I never thought I'd see the day when the moderator of LCD would question the infallibility of the Bible.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by zeek

The Times They Are A-Changin'! I never thought I'd see the day when the moderator of LCD would question the infallibility of the Bible.

I somewhat agree with you. But to be clear, I have one verse, James 2:24, that I question and test. As Timotheist said, the Latin Vulgate contained errors. These errors were one of the reasons for the protestant reformation.

As an outcome of the reformation, men decided that the Bible was the "final authority." I believe that the Bible is authorative, but that God Himself is infallible, I believe that the Holy Spirit is infallible, having the final authority. Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone)... to believe the Bible alone is our highest authority, excludes the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

I consider myself a good Berean. James has caused quite a stir, down to questioning who he was talking to and the kind of works he was referring to. If we are to believe James, without questioning, this might make all of us heretics. If we are to believe James' words are infallible, would we have to close our minds to all questionings and buy in to an even greater controversy that justification is by works and some faith and/or James wasn't talking to us. In fact, would we need to delete Acts 17:11 from our Bible? But...but...but...

Which is more important, giving the Bible authority over God Himself and the Holy Spirit who lives in us, or the book? I think the overall point is that God is God. I have always believed that the word and the Holy Spirit are in agreement and without conflict. Without the leading of the Holy Spirit in handling the word, we would be in endless questionings. In many cases, some are in endless questionings because of interpretations of men anyway. Where would we be without the leading of the Holy Spirit? We would likely be where we are now.

What is the point of all this? Knowing God; being led by the Holy Spirit; having a personal relationship with the One who inspired those who wrote his words down. The words of Paul overwhelm the one verse written by James. This is a solid test (I think). When one tiny voice contradicts the overwhelming evidence of justification by faith, the Holy Spirit gives me the assurance that...justification is indeed by faith with works being a fruit...at least that's how I think of it.

Nell

[Timotheist]

Nell, that post would get a "like" from me, if I could!

It ultimately boils down to "It's not what you know, but Who you know."

We, myself included, focus a lot on the "what".

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Nell

I somewhat agree with you. But to be clear, I have one verse, James 2:24, that I question and test. As Timotheist said, the Latin Vulgate contained errors. These errors were one of the reasons for the protestant reformation.

As an outcome of the reformation, men decided that the Bible was the "final authority." I believe that the Bible is authorative, but that God Himself is infallible, I believe that the Holy Spirit is infallible, having the final authority. Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone)... to believe the Bible alone is our highest authority, excludes the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

I consider myself a good Berean. James has caused quite a stir, down to questioning who he was talking to and the kind of works he was referring to. If we are to believe James, without questioning, this might make all of us heretics. If we are to believe James' words are infallible, would we have to close our minds to all questionings and buy in to an even greater controversy that justification is by works and some faith and/or James wasn't talking to us. In fact, would we need to delete Acts 17:11 from our Bible? But...but...but...

Which is more important, giving the Bible authority over God Himself and the Holy Spirit who lives in us, or the book? I think the overall point is that God is God. I have always believed that the word and the Holy Spirit are in agreement and without conflict. Without the leading of the Holy Spirit in handling the word, we would be in endless questionings. In many cases, some are in endless questionings because of interpretations of men anyway. Where would we be without the leading of the Holy Spirit? We would likely be where we are now.

What is the point of all this? Knowing God; being led by the Holy Spirit; having a personal relationship with the One who inspired those who wrote his words down. The words of Paul overwhelm the one verse written by James. This is a solid test (I think). When one tiny voice contradicts the overwhelming evidence of justification by faith, the Holy Spirit gives me the assurance that...justification is indeed by faith with works being a fruit...at least that's how I think of it.

Nell

"A good Berean." Mark 10:18, ESV: And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone."" Knowledge puffs up" I Corinthians 8:1. Why not confess that you don't know rather than indict the Book of James over an apparent conflict? You're following Witness Lee in this error. All he did was reveal his own limited understanding of the phenomenon of inspiration. Now you're doing the same. I'm glad we can talk about it. I never felt the liberty to talk to Lee about anything.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by zeek

"A good Berean." Mark 10:18, ESV: And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone."" Knowledge puffs up" I Corinthians 8:1. Why not confess that you don't know rather than indict the Book of James over an apparent conflict? You're following Witness Lee in this error. All he did was reveal his own limited understanding of the phenomenon of inspiration. Now you're doing the same. I'm glad we can talk about it. I never felt the liberty to talk to Lee about anything.

We’ll, that hurt.

I’m not a good Berean. I’m just a plain ol’ Berean. Better?

I confess. I don’t know. I’m not an authority on James. But I do suggest you do a little fact checking…I said in plain English, 1 (one) verse in the book of James, not the whole book of James. I.e., “But to be clear, I have one verse, James 2:24, that I question and test.” Count’em. One. Uno. Un. One verse does not a book make.

Who did you follow in misrepresenting what I actually said? Lee? You even quoted the full text of what I said, then you misrepresented me. I suppose you’re an authority on the “phenomenon of inspiration”. I’m limited in my understanding of a lot of things.

Regardless, talk away. Feel better?

Nell

[Timotheist]

Paul wrote this in chapter 2:

Rom 2:6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

This sounds a bit James-ish don't you think?

I touched on this verse on another thread, but I think it can be brought up again here.

When I compare this verse to the parable about the sheep and the goats, I see a link: that there is a way to eternal life that does not necessarily involve belief.

So one can be saved by works <gasp>.

So did Paul contradict himself? I don't think so. I am beginning to understand that Paul summarized one path to salvation in Chapter 2, followed by a "better salvation" in chapters 3-8. Then in Chapter 11 he describes a third path to salvation:

1) Gentiles who did not hear the gospel still can inherit eternal life, simply through their deeds. (2:6)

2) Jews are saved simply by being Jews.. "all Israel will be saved" (11:25).

3) Paul describes the NT good news, that which involves the indwelling Holy (Sanctifying) Spirit. (Ch 3-8)

Groups 1 and 2 do not have the Spirit, but can still be saved. We in the third group have the opportunity to inherit much more than eternal life... We are candidates from which the Lamb will choose His Bride.

Given this understanding, James and Paul are not in conflict (or at least less so). Others have already pointed out that James was talking to scattered Israel, and not to "us". To Groups 1 and 2, deeds are of primary importance. James cites two OT examples in that chapter: Abraham and Rahab. They represent Groups 1 & 2, and will be saved. Other, less obedient, Israelites will be saved as well, following the path described by the "rich man" in the Luke account. And I feel confident that both Abraham and Rahab will be made Holy during the kingdom.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Nell

We’ll, that hurt.

I’m not a good Berean. I’m just a plain ol’ Berean. Better?

I confess. I don’t know. I’m not an authority on James. But I do suggest you do a little fact checking…I said in plain English, 1 (one) verse in the book of James, not the whole book of James. I.e., “But to be clear, I have one verse, James 2:24, that I question and test.” Count’em. One. Uno. Un. One verse does not a book make.

Who did you follow in misrepresenting what I actually said? Lee? You even quoted the full text of what I said, then you misrepresented me. I suppose you’re an authority on the “phenomenon of inspiration”. I’m limited in my understanding of a lot of things.

Regardless, talk away. Feel better?

Nell

How have I misrepresented you? Was it not you who started this thread and posed the question "Infallibility of the Bible?"

If one verse in James' epistle is wrong, can the book be said to be infallible? Logically no.

If a verse in the book of James is wrong and that book is in the Bible, can the Bible be infallible? Logically no.

I did not misrepresent you. I looked at your proposition in terms of what it would mean for the extant canon of the Christian Bible if it were true.

Perhaps you did not see the logical implications of your proposition when you presented it. No problem. Do you see now?

[Nell]

Zeek,

Originally Posted by zeek

How have I misrepresented you?

Originally Posted by Nell

I somewhat agree with you. But to be clear, I have one verse, James 2:24, that I question and test.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
...
Nell

Originally Posted by zeek

... Why not confess that you don't know rather than indict the Book of James over an apparent conflict? ...

Done. Confessed.
What do you call it when someone tells the forum you "indicted the book" when you "questioned" and "tested" one verse? What do you call that?

Originally Posted by zeek

How have I misrepresented you?

Asked and answered--twice.

Was it not you who started this thread and posed the question "Infallibility of the Bible?"
If one verse in James' epistle is wrong, can the book be said to be infallible? Logically no.
If a verse in the book of James is wrong and that book is in the Bible, can the Bible be infallible? Logically no.
I did not misrepresent you. I looked at your proposition in terms of what it would mean for the extant canon of the Christian Bible if it were true.
Perhaps you did not see the logical implications of your proposition when you presented it. No problem. Do you see now?

I did start the thread (obviously) and chose to craft my comments based on one verse in the book of James. I get to do that.

I'll put my points in writing. You do the same.Your points are valid. Thank you, Zeek, for your comments on the ramifications of questioning even one verse in a book. I chose not to raise these points because I like to limit the scope of a post in favor of focusing attention more narrowly. I get to do that, too. It's a personal preference, a writing style that I think helps communication. Regardless, you raised the points for me...thanks again.

I had asked a couple of times about the veracity of James 2:24. Is it true? That was important to me, too, and a narrowing of the scope.

One motivation for starting this topic, is that God the Spirit IS INFALLIBLE, and the importance of knowing the infallible God.

We are told how the noble Bereans tested the scriptures, so we get to do that too.

Nell

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Nell

Zeek,





Done. Confessed.
What do you call it when someone tells the forum you "indicted the book" when you "questioned" and "tested" one verse? What do you call that?



Asked and answered--twice.

I did start the thread (obviously) and chose to craft my comments based on one verse in the book of James. I get to do that.

I'll put my points in writing. You do the same.Your points are valid. Thank you, Zeek, for your comments on the ramifications of questioning even one verse in a book. I chose not to raise these points because I like to limit the scope of a post in favor of focusing attention more narrowly. I get to do that, too. It's a personal preference, a writing style that I think helps communication. Regardless, you raised the points for me...thanks again.

I had asked a couple of times about the veracity of James 2:24. Is it true? That was important to me, too, and a narrowing of the scope.

One motivation for starting this topic, is that God the Spirit IS INFALLIBLE, and the importance of knowing the infallible God.

We are told how the noble Bereans tested the scriptures, so we get to do that too.

Nell

Actually, I think that according to Acts the Bereans were testing the teachings of Paul by comparing them with the scriptures, not testing the scriptures themselves.

The notion that it's OK to test what the Bible says is new to this forum as far as I am aware. As I recall, in the past if people did that they were reprimanded, their posts were deleted, and they were expelled from this website if they persisted.

Is being allowed to test the Bible a special privledge that you have as moderator? Or, are you leading the way so that others can question or test the Bible too? Where do you draw the line?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Nell

What is the point of all this? Knowing God; being led by the Holy Spirit; having a personal relationship with the One who inspired those who wrote his words down. The words of Paul overwhelm the one verse written by James. This is a solid test (I think). When one tiny voice contradicts the overwhelming evidence of justification by faith, the Holy Spirit gives me the assurance that...justification is indeed by faith with works being a fruit...at least that's how I think of it.

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do
(John 14:12)

Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.
(1 Corinthians 11:1)

I believe that James' declaration that "a person is justified by works and not by faith alone" should be taken in light of the Lord Jesus' words to his disciples in John 14. According the context surrounding James' declaration (vrs 18-26) and coupled with Jesus' declaration in John 14, it is apparent that James was not talking about works of the law, but works as they flow from faithfulness to God and his word. I think that this is what James was getting at when he proclaimed: "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works".

I think Nell sums it up quite well in saying:

Justification is indeed by faith with works being a fruit

I think this tread was mistitled. In any event, I must stress that arguments surrounding the infallibility of the Scriptures are beyond the purview of this forum, and I'm sorry to say that I am inflexible about this.
-

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I must stress that arguments surrounding the infallibility of the Scriptures are beyond the purview of this forum, and I'm sorry to say that I am inflexible about this.

I recall when I came to the forum years ago, I asked "How do you know God cares?" And IIRC I put the question in the "alt-views" section. I could definitely imagine that I could just as easily have asked, "How do you know the Bible is trustworthy?" These are the kinds of things that particularly church kids can be extremely bothered by when they step out of the local church environment of lies. You end up wondering what, if anything, that you were told, is even remotely true.

Are we saying that those kinds of needs would be turned away? Or does the inquisitive nature of it make it acceptable just because it's not outright arguing against?

Thanks,

Trapped

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I recall when I came to the forum years ago, I asked "How do you know God cares?" And IIRC I put the question in the "alt-views" section. I could definitely imagine that I could just as easily have asked, "How do you know the Bible is trustworthy?" These are the kinds of things that particularly church kids can be extremely bothered by when they step out of the local church environment of lies. You end up wondering what, if anything, that you were told, is even remotely true.

Are we saying that those kinds of needs would be turned away? Or does the inquisitive nature of it make it acceptable just because it's not outright arguing against?

Thanks,

Trapped

While I understand the heart behind the forum mission, I worry about what it means when this kind of person comes across it.

To use a tough parallel type example to illustrate, if someone was sexually assaulted by someone they trusted (which isn't too far off from what many have experienced in the local church....a violation of their person by the people they trusted), the response would not be to tell that person the positives of a healthy physical marriage relationship. That would be painful, triggering, and overwhelming, and provide zero support for that victim.

The victim needs to be able to ask questions like "are relationships even worth it" or "can any people be trusted" or even be allowed to say things like "I'm never getting married" without some kind of reaction or adverse response. Because that's where the person is in relation to what happened to them, and that's what they are actually struggling with. The response of "questions about the sanctity of physical marriage relationships are not allowed" would be another wound to an already wounded person. They would already be struggling with mountains of complex feelings about what happened to them, and then such a response would make them feel like what they are feeling.....which is the most normal feeling in the world....is itself wrong.

Just throwing it out there for a discussion that, I apologize, I am aware is not one that has been put up for discussion, but as far as I'm concerned it drills to the core of this entire thing and is something that at least should be allowed to be discussed, even if the discussion occurs while the participants know it won't affect anything.

Thanks.

Trapped

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do
(John 14:12)

Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.
(1 Corinthians 11:1)

I believe that James' declaration that "a person is justified by works and not by faith alone" should be taken in light of the Lord Jesus' words to his disciples in John 14. According the context surrounding James' declaration (vrs 18-26) and coupled with Jesus' declaration in John 14, it is apparent that James was not talking about works of the law, but works as they flow from faithfulness to God and his word. I think that this is what James was getting at when he proclaimed: "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works".

I think Nell sums it up quite well in saying:

I think this tread was mistitled. In any event, I must stress that arguments surrounding the infallibility of the Scriptures are beyond the purview of this forum, and I'm sorry to say that I am inflexible about this.
-

I agree.

Scriptures are infallible.

Interpretations are not.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I think this thread was mistitled. In any event, I must stress that arguments surrounding the infallibility of the Scriptures are beyond the purview of this forum, and I'm sorry to say that I am inflexible about this.
-

I agree. Bad title. Very sorry. In my personal life the Word and the Holy Spirit are inseparable in knowing the Lord with the living and available One being a constant confirmation of His presence in my life and living.

As a former member of the LC, I was taught to know WLee's ministry and obey those who had inherited its execution after Lee's death. It became difficult to "survive" if you didn't know, follow and obey "the brothers". I found it impossible to stay out of trouble. Hence, instead, I had to learn there was a system and to remain I had to learn how to work that system. Eventually, I couldn't do it anymore.

Now, when I read the word, I've said this before, I talk to the Lord about what I'm reading and ask Him questions, or tell Him "I don't get it." "What is this talking about?" Amazingly, when I first "joined the LC" the sharing was actually from the "pure" word. It was so rich and real, we often sat for 2 hours on, on the edge of our seats, on Sunday morning...listening...two brothers shared. When one finished, the second one began where #1 left off. It was amazing. It was truth.

As a result when WLee went off the rails, the anointing of the Holy Spirit was gone. I compared this speaking I heard in the beginning to what I was hearing later on. Not even close. When you hear the truth, it's unmistakable. It never goes away. When you here a lie, that should be unmistakable too. How does that happen? The Holy Spirit.

I've never had a question as to whether God cares or not. I knew Him as a child and He seemed to always be with me. Always a presence. For a long time I didn't know this "presence" was Him, until he showed Himself to me. I realize that not all have my history. I think this is a good question to ask Him. "God how am I supposed to know that you care (about me)?" Ask questions. Tell Him what you think. If you're not sure about something you believe you've heard, talk with a trusted confidant. We need Him and we need each other.


Nell

[Ohio]

I have been thru some horrible trials, despairing of life itself, questioning everything and everyone, betrayed by those closest to me, but what literally preserved me thru it all, both before and after my salvation, was the conviction that Jesus is God, and the Bible was His Word.

It is also my belief that the absence of these convictions, ever declining in the world today, explain so much of what we read in the news. They have tremendous keeping power. I have never once questioned them.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Nell

. . . But to be clear, I have one verse, James 2:24, that I question and test.

Somehow this verse does not seem so difficult. It is about context. Because of Abraham's faith, he acted. He did not declare that he had faith and then not act. Failure to act would have put Abraham's righteousness in question. We may not like the words used, but works and faith were required, and v 25 does not say works rather than faith but works with faith. Further, it does not say in the pre-Christ era or the example that faith is not required, or that works are required for the initial spark of salvation in us.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by OBW

Somehow this verse does not seem so difficult. It is about context. Because of Abraham's faith, he acted. He did not declare that he had faith and then not act. Failure to act would have put Abraham's righteousness in question. We may not like the words used, but works and faith were required, and v 25 does not say works rather than faith but works with faith. Further, it does not say in the pre-Christ era or the example that faith is not required, or that works are required for the initial spark of salvation in us.

Originally Posted by OBW

Somehow this verse does not seem so difficult. It is about context. Because of Abraham's faith, he acted. He did not declare that he had faith and then not act. Failure to act would have put Abraham's righteousness in question. We may not like the words used, but works and faith were required, and v 25 does not say works rather than faith but works with faith. Further, it does not say in the pre-Christ era or the example that faith is not required, or that works are required for the initial spark of salvation in us.

Right!

Come now, there is no need to question the veracity of either James or Paul’s writings for they complement each other... something Witness Lee either couldn’t understand or didn’t want to (because it would expose him as a fraud with no good works?).

By works of law shall no flesh be justified indeed (note “works of law” here). And true faith in the living God, and the Son He sent, justifies us before God. Such a faith results in actions (works) of faith that also justify us (James’ point, faith without works is dead, but faith with works shows it is living). Reread the whole second chapter of James to see his context (saints weren’t giving mercy to the poor who came in to their meetings, but were giving preference to the rich (hmm, sound familiar LCers?) and get his whole point, including Abraham’s act of faith (after he believed God, he offered Issac up in faith). Got faith? Then where are your works that demonstrate it?

God’s word is perfect indeed, both Old and New Testaments, as delivered to us by a living, Sovereign God.

This is what scripture says of itself:

Psalm 12:6
The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Psalm 18:30 https://biblehub.com/psalms/18-30.htm

2 Samuel 2:31 https://biblehub.com/2_samuel/22-31.htm

https://biblehub.com/blb/james/2.htm

https://biblehub.com/2_timothy/3-16.htm

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

I suggest you figure out a way to provide that help, as well. Perhaps a brief “read only” page that presents enough info that provides comfort to those who are questioning?

Well I just said this is not up for debate....but since you brought it up. I figured out a way to provide help about 15 years ago when I started this forum. At this point, technically, I am only 1/564th of the voices on this forum. And this is more than fine with me. The more the merrier. But no matter how many, or no matter how few, come to participate, the mission to help people, both within and without the religion of the Local Church of Witness Lee, remains the same - That people would come to know, see and experience the genuine Gospel and the genuine Jesus, and to come to know, to see and experience the glorious fact that to be a Christian means to follow the Person and work of our Lord Jesus, and leave behind all the false teachings, harmful practices and sordid history that spring forth from the person and work of 李常受; Lǐ Chángshòu; Witness Lee.

Local Churchers have enough "Read Only" in their lives. What they need is some human interaction. And this is what a public forum is all about.
-

Originally Posted by Trapped

Just saying,

Thanks for just saying. You're a trip! Please register and join in!

Trapped

Hey Trapped,

I appreciate the invite, but I think I’ll stick to maybe couple times a month visits just to check and see the latest and the greatest from the local church. Plus, for people like me the shelf life on the forum like this is probably like 5 business days before I get 🤐🤐, hopefully I didn’t offend anyone there 😉. I just come and get updated once in a while, and it’s enough for couple weeks. I always wish there was more exposing of this movement going on here, rather that trying to introduce some other private interpretations on random topics, which I can find pretty much anywhere else. Maybe when that day comes, I’ll be more willing to jump in!

I’m not very positive to say the least to anything associated with this movement, so maybe getting a twitter account or telegram is a way to go, unless the locals have infiltrated those platforms. 🧐🫣 #DCP #Blended #Protectatallcosts.

Thanks

P.S.
For those who are always looking for something to get offended about, just consider this post as satire, 😊👍!

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Just Saying

Hey Trapped,

I appreciate the invite, but I think I’ll stick to maybe couple times a month visits just to check and see the latest and the greatest from the local church. Plus, for people like me the shelf life on the forum like this is probably like 5 business days before I get 🤐🤐, hopefully I didn’t offend anyone there 😉. I just come and get updated once in a while, and it’s enough for couple weeks. I always wish there was more exposing of this movement going on here, rather that trying to introduce some other private interpretations on random topics, which I can find pretty much anywhere else. Maybe when that day comes, I’ll be more willing to jump in!

I’m not very positive to say the least to anything associated with this movement, so maybe getting a twitter account or telegram is a way to go, unless the locals have infiltrated those platforms. 🧐🫣 #DCP #Blended #Protectatallcosts.

Thanks

P.S.
For those who are always looking for something to get offended about, just consider this post as satire, 😊👍!

Just saying,

I get it. Glad you can stop by as much as you can, at least.

To be honest, unless there is more revealed, I'm not sure how much more exposing can occur here. The forum has been around for some time and has had many participants and many topics. A lot has been exposed. I think that's one reason why, over time, people eventually drop off in posting, because there is no "new" exposing. But there are still scriptural topics that people are trying to figure out if they were misled by the LC about, hence, the topics we see a lot of today. My main benefit in the scriptural topics is that, as I usually disagree with about 1/3 of what is posted, it forces me to go to the Bible to see what it really says. That exercise has been invaluable.

P.S. A Twitter campaign sounds great......are you volunteering?

Originally Posted by Trapped

Just saying, P.S. A Twitter campaign sounds great......are you volunteering?

I will just state this: there will be a day, I don’t know when, but I’ll let my voice be heard whether on Twitter, YouTube or elsewhere. After reading the comments made by UntoHim, I’ll just state that I can relate to some things. This is not 70s or 80s in the recovery, this is 2022, but this leopard just can’t change their stripes even if it wants to. Hopefully you will understand.

Thank you.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Just saying.

I will just state this: there will be a day, I don’t know when, but I’ll let my voice be heard whether on Twitter, YouTube or elsewhere. After reading the comments made by UntoHim, I’ll just state that I can relate to some things. This is not 70s or 80s in the recovery, this is 2022, but this leopard just can’t change their stripes even if it wants to. Hopefully you will understand.

Thank you.

Just saying,

Sorry for my delay in responding to you here - I look forward to that day when your voice is heard.

Trapped

[Ohio]

The underlying foundation of this forum from day one has always been to stand on the Bible as God’s Word along with the greater Body of Christ. The former Alt-Views Sub-Forum became a never ending rabbit hole of age old attacks on this Christian foundation.

UntoHim, sorry to hear about the trials you have endured, yet the proving of your faith is more precious than gold.

[Zezima]

The original post that started this thread asked a question about why a book was included in canon.

Posters then discuss what canon means and when canon was decided

Moderators:
-“As interesting as biblical textual criticism is, I'm afraid that such "criticism" is beyond the purview of this forum”
-“They also don't need to have their faith in the Bible as the Word of God unnecessarily challenged”

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by Zezima

The original post that started this thread asked a question about why a book was included in canon.

Posters then discuss what canon means and when canon was decided

Moderators:
-“As interesting as biblical textual criticism is, I'm afraid that such "criticism" is beyond the purview of this forum”
-“They also don't need to have their faith in the Bible as the Word of God unnecessarily challenged”

Can we add these rules to the sidebar so we can be clear.
- Discussing the history of the Bible = Criticism
- Discussing the authorship of the Bible is discouraged because it may lead to people questioning their beliefs. We can’t allow critical thought.

Question Everything!
Your future does depend on your seeking.
Doing as you say Zezima suggests that if you have a question don't ask if it breaks orthodoxy. I believe even Jesus would frown on this...

"Ask and it shall be given"
"Seek and Ye shall Find"
"Knock and the door will be opened."

[awareness]

Is it necessary to believe that the Bible is infallible to be saved?

That's never stated by Jesus.

Infallible is only mentioned once in the whole KJV Bible:

Act_1:3* To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

No mention of the Bible.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by manna-man

Question Everything!
Your future does depend on your seeking.
Doing as you say Zezima suggests that if you have a question don't ask if it breaks orthodoxy. I believe even Jesus would frown on this...

"Ask and it shall be given"
"Seek and Ye shall Find"
"Knock and the door will be opened."

Does Jesus (or any of the apostles) give us any examples of questioning scripture?

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Like most all heresies, the "Holy Mother of God heresy" was not spawned from the actual translation from the original into the lingua franca of the day, the heresy was spawned from the ignorant and idolatrous hearts and minds of mere mortals.

Well he didn't, and that should be a big indication that there was no problem to begin with.
-

Oh I wish you were correct on this point. The LXX contained a lot of Greek “Wisdom literature”, which promoted the Goddess Sophia, as “the Mother of us all”.

I’ve been thinking that Jesus likely did teach his disciples about the scriptures, but the words were not recorded.

[UntoHim]

So you think it's possible that Jesus promoted the goddess Sophia? That's pretty far out there, Timmie, even for you!

Maybe you could point us to where the Scripture writing apostles promoted the goddess Sophia? But wait...YOU CAN'T BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T.

So what's your point? That the Catholic Church and maybe Eastern Orthodox continue to use non-canonical writings and therefore Protestants should not be using what has been accepted canon for centuries?
-

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

So you think it's possible that Jesus promoted the goddess Sophia? That's pretty far out there, Timmie, even for you!

Maybe you could point us to where the Scripture writing apostles promoted the goddess Sophia? But wait...YOU CAN'T BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T.

So what's your point? That the Catholic Church and maybe Eastern Orthodox continue to use non-canonical writings and therefore Protestants should not be using what has been accepted canon for centuries?
-

I have no clue where you got this thought…. I just said that I think Jesus taught them how to read the scriptures. I guess I had to clarify that statement for you.

It is the second and third generations who were led astray, despite having Paul’s discernment

[UntoHim]

Ok, let me try again:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

So what's your point? That the Catholic Church and maybe Eastern Orthodox continue to use non-canonical writings and therefore Protestants should not be using what has been accepted canon for centuries?

-

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ok, let me try again:

-

I have been wanting to ask you what you mean by “accepted canon”

The Protestant canon, and that one only?

And was the LXX an accepted canon, just because it was the only Greek edition?

My position is that both Protestant and Catholic canons are suspect. The Protestant version is better, but it did not go far enough.

Btw, i was only responding to Mike and now to you.

I am preparing a longer statement that I will post soon. It will likely be my last.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

I have been wanting to ask you what you mean by “accepted canon”

Oh, I don't know, I guess the one that had been accepted by the earliest of the church fathers and Christian community, going all the way back to the end of the 1st Century. If you study early Church history you would know that.
-

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Oh I wish you were correct on this point. The LXX contained a lot of Greek “Wisdom literature”, which promoted the Goddess Sophia, as “the Mother of us all”.

Galations tells us the New Jerusalem is the mother of the believers.

The following quotes are from WL, regarding the Bible. Although he starts out very good in his description of Scriptures, it’s the last sentence that he uttered where he crossed out everything that was previously stated.

Throughout the six thousand years of human history there have been countless writings of significant value in various fields, such as philosophy, science, and religion. Up to this day, however, in the whole world every person of integrity and fair-mindedness—whether he is a God-fearing person or an atheist, a Christian or a non-Christian—recognizes that the Bible is the most outstanding and profound book in human culture. From what I have personally experienced in this matter, I can only affirm that I cannot express with human language what kind of effort and how much time we have to devote to the study of the Bible. The division of the sections of the Bible is of profound significance, and even the arrangement of the books of the Bible inspires admiration. If the sequence of the Bible were arranged according to man's natural concept, then the proper significance would be lost. Therefore, the order of the books of the Bible has profound significance. The chapters of each book of the Scriptures are also divinely arranged. The things that are stated explicitly, of course, have profound significance; however, certain things that are not mentioned are even more profound in their significance.
CWWL, 1986, vol. 2, "The Economy of God and the Mystery of the Transmission of the Divine Trinity,"

Revelation 22:18-19

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

We know how much of the Lord’s Recovery is built on things “not mentioned”, but ether inserted into a text, or outright misinterpreted to fit his personal agenda.