Some Good Things to Come Out of the Recovery?

[Sons to Glory!]

After starting the "Recovering from the Recovery" thread, I felt compelled to start one about the good things that may have come out of it.

The thing that comes to me immediately is the functioning of every member. I must admit that when I visit other gatherings, and hear a great message, I think a HUGE opportunity is lost if there isn't some open sharing at the end. I can't tell you how much of a help this has been, and the Lord definitely speaks clearly through various members.

(The last LC I visited still sort of did this, but it was very rote, and the saints were only "allowed" to speak certain things. This was a Spirit killer. There was no fresh experience of Christ conveyed from their daily life, just something they were impressed with from (for instance) the current Life Study.)

I've also enjoyed, where I am now, that several brothers rotate in the Sunday teaching. Some time ago it was mainly just one brother sharing and it was very good. But then it was opened up to various ones to do the teaching, and things really took off!

So I know other groups before the LC had tried to break the hold of the clergy-laity system, but I give the LC credit for its current manifestation. The freedom for all the members to function is a huge thing, and I wish more would see and experience that.

Unfortunately, as we all know, this was abused by the LC leadership, and saints were not allowed the freedom they should have - in the gatherings and elsewhere.

So what's another good thing?

[Evangelical]

If only one person does the speaking that is the clergy-laity system so that should be discouraged.

Another good thing is the use of the (same) Bible in the meetings, and also a very good bible that is even used outside of the recovery. In denominations I was tired of pastors uses watered down versions like "the message" and spinning that into some story about social justice or whatever feel-good message they wanted to preach.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If only one person does the speaking that is the clergy-laity system so that should be discouraged.

Another good thing is the use of the (same) Bible in the meetings, and also a very good bible that is even used outside of the recovery. In denominations I was tired of pastors uses watered down versions like "the message" and spinning that into some story about social justice or whatever feel-good message they wanted to preach.

Not sure what you mean by your first statement - can you clarify?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Not sure what you mean by your first statement - can you clarify?

You mentioned rote and only certain saints allowed to say certain things, that is a liturgical clergy-laity system. If only one person is speaking they have become "clergy" to the ones who don't speak who are the "laity". The clergy-laity system evolves from a majority of members not wanting or able to speak or a few members imposing rules that only one or two can speak. The format of the meetings encourages everyone to speak but if that does not happen it becomes a clergy-laity meeting.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You mentioned rote and only certain saints allowed to say certain things, that is a liturgical clergy-laity system. If only one person is speaking they have become "clergy" to the ones who don't speak who are the "laity". The clergy-laity system evolves from a majority of members not wanting or able to speak or a few members imposing rules that only one or two can speak. The format of the meetings encourages everyone to speak but if that does not happen it becomes a clergy-laity meeting.

Are you defining a clergy-laity system based on a meeting format or as the practice of a church body? I guess I could google it.

I regularly participate with a group of believers from different “denominations” where we sit in a circle, break bread and people are free to share a word, hymn, song, praise, etc. This is much different than at the LSM churches, where most everyone regurgitates LSM approves materials. In an attempt for some appearance of authenticity, my LSM locality was “training” people not to read directly from the LSM material. It was too blatantly obvious what was going on and they wanted people to stick to the script, but not to directly read. This carries over into home meetings too... so sad!

They also mentioned this at the training in Anaheim, so I assume this is true throughout. Those who are skilled in regurgitating Witness Lee in their own words get extra Amen’s.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

In an attempt for some appearance of authenticity, my LSM locality was “training” people not to read directly from the LSM material. It was too blatantly obvious what was going on and they wanted people to stick to the script, but not to directly read.

This is how LSM defines oneness and the one accord -- all speak the same thing, speak the one thing, think the one thing, etc -- straight from the latest LSM book without appearing too "robotic." Yet the stated goal of the FTT's is to mass produce "Witness Lee Tape Recorders."

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You mentioned rote and only certain saints allowed to say certain things, that is a liturgical clergy-laity system. If only one person is speaking they have become "clergy" to the ones who don't speak who are the "laity". The clergy-laity system evolves from a majority of members not wanting or able to speak or a few members imposing rules that only one or two can speak. The format of the meetings encourages everyone to speak but if that does not happen it becomes a clergy-laity meeting.

It wasn't that only certain ones were permitted to speak, but what they spoke had some controls on it, as is being brought out on this thread.

So we know that this is another one of those things that started pretty well in the "Recovery," but then degraded.

But since this is a thread about good things that came out, I would put forth the 2nd one: The Emphasis on the Indwelling Christ. While the LC certainly didn't have the market cornered on this subject either, this was a central teaching of Nee and Lee.

(And, again, what started as a good focus of "Christ in you, the hope of glory" unfortunately devolved into the external control thing. And I should add that today 95% of the speaking I hear in Christendom still focuses on some aspect of the law. They may speak of New Testament things, but it is conveyed in an old covenant way of performance - still stuck in a Galatians type error. Most haven't learned that the Christian life is impossible to live apart from the life of Christ in them!)

But, nonetheless, I believe this focus - Christ in y-all - is the central theme to what the new covenant is about, and I think the Recovery did a lot to promote this truth.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You mentioned rote and only certain saints allowed to say certain things, that is a liturgical clergy-laity system. If only one person is speaking they have become "clergy" to the ones who don't speak who are the "laity". The clergy-laity system evolves from a majority of members not wanting or able to speak or a few members imposing rules that only one or two can speak. The format of the meetings encourages everyone to speak but if that does not happen it becomes a clergy-laity meeting.

Hasty generalization!

Here in Grace Baptist Church, we have cell groups where everyone has the opportunity to share from their studies and meditations on the scripture. And everyone is encouraged to evangelize the lost. You err to generalize every Christian groups with clergy-laity system!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Hasty generalization!

Here in Grace Baptist Church, we have cell groups where everyone has the opportunity to share from their studies and meditations on the scripture. And everyone are encouraged to evangelize the lost. You err to generalize every Christian groups with clergy-laity system!

That's awesome!! I recognize that if a gathering is too large (e.g., at Sunday teaching time) it may not be conducive to open sharing from members. But I consider it so key that even in those situations it would be really good if at least a few were allowed to share something they were inspired by afterward.

I've sometimes heard that groups don't want to do that for fear of what someone might say or that things could "get out of control." That is always a possibility, but I have to say the benefits of the riches that come out of the members speaking, far outweighs any of the downsides. And in experiencing this kind of open meeting for perhaps 30 years, I can honestly say I could easily count on one hand the times anything got too far sideways.

But that is a big benefit of smaller meetings too. So if it, for some legitimate reason, can't be done in the large corporate gatherings, then I think there definitely needs to be small gatherings where everyone is encouraged to share real experiences of Christ.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Are you defining a clergy-laity system based on a meeting format or as the practice of a church body? I guess I could google it.

I regularly participate with a group of believers from different “denominations” where we sit in a circle, break bread and people are free to share a word, hymn, song, praise, etc. This is much different than at the LSM churches, where most everyone regurgitates LSM approves materials. In an attempt for some appearance of authenticity, my LSM locality was “training” people not to read directly from the LSM material. It was too blatantly obvious what was going on and they wanted people to stick to the script, but not to directly read. This carries over into home meetings too... so sad!

They also mentioned this at the training in Anaheim, so I assume this is true throughout. Those who are skilled in regurgitating Witness Lee in their own words get extra Amen’s.

I used the term system in a loose way. There is the clergy-laity system which is the official way things are ordered and structured by clergy and laity. But practice wise, some "clergy-laity" churches may not practice clergy-laity distinctions as much as others. And in the recovery a church may practice a clergy-laity distinction more than a Catholic church. This is something we need to be aware of, and it all starts with expecting only one person to speak every Sunday, or one person insisting they speak and not giving others a chance. This happens because people don't read their morning revivals and Bible at home during the week, they come to the meeting and expect others who have to fill in their knowledge gaps. This is no different really to a person in the denominations going to church on a Sunday to listen to the priest and never reading their devotionals and bible at home.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Hasty generalization!

Here in Grace Baptist Church, we have cell groups where everyone has the opportunity to share from their studies and meditations on the scripture. And everyone are encouraged to evangelize the lost. You err to generalize every Christian groups with clergy-laity system!

If everyone has the opportunity to share, then that is not a clergy-laity system.

But if everyone is lazy and looks to one person in the group to do most of the speaking, essentially they look up to that person as a "clergy". That's how it starts. It parallels the situation in Israel when they wanted a king to rule over them. They basically wanted to hand over their spiritual responsibilities to others, and those who wish to control others are more than happy to oblige under the guise of them being "unable" or doing a "poor job".

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

This happens because people don't read their morning revivals and Bible at home during the week, they come to the meeting and expect others who have to fill in their knowledge gaps. This is no different really to a person in the denominations going to church on a Sunday to listen to the priest and never reading their devotionals and bible at home.

Yes, we very much have a spectator culture... easier that way, not messy.

Evan- do you find that the majority of people in your LSM church speak mostly about the current Morning revival topic when they talk about God? Whether they’re in a meeting or otherwise? I found this to be true and it was always interesting to me. I remember talking about what God was doing in my life at a Sunday meeting (really cool things!) but it had nothing to do with the morning revival. People actually listened and were engaged rather than humming “Amen’s” at the right time. I remember feeling sad that the only great things they could think about God was what Witness Lee had told them to say that week.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If everyone has the opportunity to share, then that is not a clergy-laity system.

But if everyone is lazy and looks to one person in the group to do most of the speaking, essentially they look up to that person as a "clergy". That's how it starts. It parallels the situation in Israel when they wanted a king to rule over them. They basically wanted to hand over their spiritual responsibilities to others, and those who wish to control others are more than happy to oblige under the guise of them being "unable" or doing a "poor job".

Good point. I think it may be hard to determine the exact initial cause - did the people get lazy or did someone rise up to conquer the laity? But if the people are strong in the Lord, then they will fulfill their function and there won't be an opportunity to allow someone to rise over them . . .

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Hasty generalization!

Here in Grace Baptist Church, we have cell groups where everyone has the opportunity to share from their studies and meditations on the scripture. And everyone are encouraged to evangelize the lost. You err to generalize every Christian groups with clergy-laity system!

I remember one Full-Timer commenting to me in private about how easy it was to be a Christian in the denominations -- only coming one hour a week to church.

It just shows you how insulated they are from any contact with the real world. All they know about other Christian churches are the cheap comments drummed into them for years. Is this not the very definition of prejudice and stereotyping?

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It just shows you how insulated they are from any contact with the real world. All they know about other Christian churches are the cheap comments drummed into them for years. Is this not the very definition of prejudice and stereotyping?

The “recovery” doesn’t work without condemning other Christians. It is a pillar or foundation of Lee’s ministry. They are not set apart by demonstrating the fruit of the Spirit or the works of their “ministry”, but instead, by considering themselves over Poor, Poor, Christianity. We saw Drake point to some Beyoncé service or Joel Osteen church that hosted a secular performance group - clearly insulated from reality.

This is one of the major reasons why I think the LSM will not be around for much longer. Young people are much more aware and sensitive to this type of stereotyping of groups. The information is out there for them to access and see how God is moving across the world. For some, it is fun to be a part of an exclusive group who hold all the secrets and are much more “enlightened” - but I feel that this type of thinking is much harder to find in the millennial generation.

Jonah whined to God when He spared Nineveh, His heart was hard towards these sinful people. To those in the LSM-Don’t let your heart harden towards actual believers, the sons and daughters of Christ’s Church.


Praise God that he offers His gift of salvation to all!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

The “recovery” doesn’t work without condemning other Christians. It is a pillar or foundation of Lee’s ministry. They are not set apart by demonstrating the fruit of the Spirit or the works of their “ministry”, but instead, by considering themselves over Poor, Poor, Christianity.

Like the school yard bully who must beat all others down so that he seems to "rise above."

[Sons to Glory!]

Okay, since this is a thread of good things to come out of the Recovery, let's get back to that!

So what about the Recovery's focus on the indwelling Christ? Again, I know they didn't invent this (since it is perhaps THE central theme of the New Covenant) and are not the only ones so focused. But, as said, 95% of what I hear out there seems to be a version of Christianity via Judaism.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Okay, since this is a thread of good things to come out of the Recovery, let's get back to that!

Good luck with that.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Drake

Good luck with that.

I have positive expectancy!

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

Good luck with that.

I agree with Drake. It’s difficult, right? I mean on one hand everything that happens in the LSM churches isn’t all bad. But, in a way, you could say that about any group, Catholic, Mormon, Muslim, etc.

I think if you asked my mother-in-law (who’s family visited JW churches when she was young, but became a believer later in life) would say she has nothing good to say about the JW churches. This has been the sentiment for many who have grown up in the WL churches - what they’ve posted on this forum.

Now I didn’t grow up in the WL churches, thank God, but I would have to say that any positive aspect of the LC had a shadow side that outweighed the good. Fellowship of believers, organizational structure, home meetings, college outreach, etc. Witness Lee’s ministry is stale and lifeless, the church he’s created in his name is dying, and the dear brothers and sisters are confused and left alone to tackle the struggles of finding the Lord in Lee’s ministry. Putting on a smile, some makeup, reading Lee’s writings, and saying a hearty Amen isn’t feeding their souls like only Christ can.

Maybe the only good to come out of the “recovery” is the process of coming out of the “recovery” and going into recovery in the Father’s arms.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

The “recovery” doesn’t work without condemning other Christians. It is a pillar or foundation of Lee’s ministry. They are not set apart by demonstrating the fruit of the Spirit or the works of their “ministry”, but instead, by considering themselves over Poor, Poor, Christianity. We saw Drake point to some Beyoncé service or Joel Osteen church that hosted a secular performance group - clearly insulated from reality.

Protestantism/evangelicalism doesn't work without condemning Catholicism. And Catholicism doesn't work without condemning Judaism (see the history).

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Okay, since this is a thread of good things to come out of the Recovery, let's get back to that!

So what about the Recovery's focus on the indwelling Christ? Again, I know they didn't invent this (since it is perhaps THE central theme of the New Covenant) and are not the only ones so focused. But, as said, 95% of what I hear out there seems to be a version of Christianity via Judaism.

I agree that the focus on the indwelling Christ is an important recovery.
This focus has two parts:
a) Christ lives in us and not just in heaven - this helps with intimacy and relating to the Lord as one man to another.
b) the Spirit living in us is not "a different spirit" but the Lord Himself as the Spirit - this helps with understanding that the Spirit is not some mysterious or impersonal power that might either work a strange "gold dust" miracle or strike us dead any moment, but truly a Comforter. The name Jesus is truly the name of the Father, the name of the Son, and the name of the Spirit.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Protestantism/evangelicalism doesn't work without condemning Catholicism. And Catholicism doesn't work without condemning Judaism (see the history).

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

abolish - kat-al-oo'-o

From G2596 and G3089; to loosen down (disintegrate), that is, (by implication) to demolish (literally or figuratively); specifically (compare G2646) to halt for the night: - destroy, dissolve, be guest, lodge, come to nought, overthrow, throw down.

How would the Gospel not work without condemning Catholicism? What about countries where there is no Catholicism present? Is there no Christianity? I'm not sure what you're trying to communicate here Evangelical.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I agree that the focus on the indwelling Christ is an important recovery.
This focus has two parts:
a) Christ lives in us and not just in heaven - this helps with intimacy and relating to the Lord as one man to another.
b) the Spirit living in us is not "a different spirit" but the Lord Himself as the Spirit - this helps with understanding that the Spirit is not some mysterious or impersonal power that might either work a strange "gold dust" miracle or strike us dead any moment, but truly a Comforter. The name Jesus is truly the name of the Father, the name of the Son, and the name of the Spirit.

Yes indeed - I do believe that this is the central point of the new covenant! Without the Lord living in and through His believers, it's just a sort of updated Judaism of performance based do's & don'ts.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So what's another good thing?

I enjoyed the sharing of the members too. Until I discovered that the head elder had 14 brothers seeding the meetings. That killed the Spirit to me.

And the other important thing, or things, I learned from my LC experience is : How it shouldn't be. Like the top down authority and oracle of God thing. My advise is to run the other way from that as fast as you can. Bad, bad, bad, and not scriptural, according to Jesus in the New Testament.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

abolish - kat-al-oo'-o

From G2596 and G3089; to loosen down (disintegrate), that is, (by implication) to demolish (literally or figuratively); specifically (compare G2646) to halt for the night: - destroy, dissolve, be guest, lodge, come to nought, overthrow, throw down.

How would the Gospel not work without condemning Catholicism? What about countries where there is no Catholicism present? Is there no Christianity? I'm not sure what you're trying to communicate here Evangelical.

Protestantism, as the name implies (to protest), does not exist without condemning (protesting against) Catholicism.

The narrative behind Protestantism is that the Roman Catholic church is not the one true church established by Christ founded on Peter the apostle. That "Catholicism is wrong" is implied every time an evangelical gives someone a gospel tract as opposed to directing them to their nearest Catholic Priest.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Protestantism, as the name implies (to protest), does not exist without condemning (protesting against) Catholicism.
The narrative behind Protestantism is that the Roman Catholic church is not the one true church established by Christ founded on Peter the apostle. That "Catholicism is wrong" is implied every time an evangelical gives someone a gospel tract as opposed to directing them to their nearest Catholic Priest.

I never thought of it like that!

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Protestantism, as the name implies (to protest), does not exist without condemning (protesting against) Catholicism.

I don’t even know where to begin - Bro, I’m worried you’ve got your brain warped through too much Witness Lee. The Gospel of Christ and His Church don’t fit into the paradigm you’ve created. Your paradigm misses the entirety of Scripture and Jesus work on the cross. You’ve simplified a narrative to temporarily prop up your views, but its falling flat (maybe worse).

[Evangelical]

It's no narrative, it's historical fact, that condemnation of Catholicism (and Jews) was a "pillar" of Luther's ministry and later the whole Reformation. Without that condemnation, the Reformation would have been a true reformation within Catholicism rather than what it became as an entity opposed to it. The "sola fide gospel" came from Luther and the Reformation. This gospel is the key point of distinction between Catholics and Protestants. The sola fide gospel would not have eventuated if Luther had not condemned the Catholic church for its gospel of good works. The positive-gospel says "we are saved by faith alone", the negative-gospel says "we are not saved by good works". Sola fide became the rallying cry of the Reformation and Lutheranism in particular, mostly as a counter-argument to the Catholic system of good works.

[leastofthese]

So in your narrative you extrapolate an active condemnation of the Catholic Church as a core tenant (maybe the most important?) message of the Gospel and the work of Jesus on the cross. If that line of thinking were true, the core message of an Evangelical Gospel tract (not sure why you used a Gospel tract as your example...) is a long list of condemnations rather than the reality of scriptures and the work of Jesus on the cross. Your Gospel of Lee has it backwards - so it should be no surprise that the Witness Lee churches lack fruit and are a dying apart from the tree. Our creator offers so much more, why clinch so tightly to the words of the man Witness Lee?

[Sons to Glory!]

Leastofthese & Evangelical - Seems like this is just two perspectives of the same thing. (i.e., the three blind men trying to describe an elephant parable).

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

So in your narrative you extrapolate an active condemnation of the Catholic Church as a core tenant (maybe the most important?) message of the Gospel and the work of Jesus on the cross. If that line of thinking were true, the core message of an Evangelical Gospel tract (not sure why you used a Gospel tract as your example...) is a long list of condemnations rather than the reality of scriptures and the work of Jesus on the cross. Your Gospel of Lee has it backwards - so it should be no surprise that the Witness Lee churches lack fruit and are a dying apart from the tree. Our creator offers so much more, why clinch so tightly to the words of the man Witness Lee?

If your statement "The “recovery” doesn’t work without condemning other Christians. " is true, then the Gospel tract the recovery uses is a long list of condemnations of Christianity. The Gospel tract has never included any condemnations of Christianity, thus disproving your statement.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If your statement "The “recovery” doesn’t work without condemning other Christians. " is true, then the Gospel tract the recovery uses is a long list of condemnations of Christianity. The Gospel tract has never included any condemnations of Christianity, thus disproving your statement.

Read almost any LSM document or attend almost any LSM approved meeting. You'll hear condemnation of Christians. The Christian churches that I've attended or been a part of have not made condemnation of the Catholic church the center of their messaging (actually quite far from it). The Gospel of Witness Lee is based on an active condemnation of believers.

The LSM is so whacky that without a drumbeat of how bad and scary Christianity is (those poor, poor, people) - they wouldn't be able to keep the doors open. True Christianity points to Scripture and the message of Jesus.

I saw this first hand for an entire year - the LSM propaganda machine led by elders, those deceived by FTTA, and those born into the LSM lead the charge. But I had tasted and seen the Lord - my eyes were open. I gave the LSM churches a chance to show me their light, but found that behind those doors is lifeless, full of confusion, and lacking the beauty of Christ and His Spirit. I'm not writing to convince you of anything Evangelical, I'm afraid it is beyond that point. Feel free to have the last word.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Read almost any LSM document or attend almost any LSM approved meeting. You'll hear condemnation of Christians. The Christian churches that I've attended or been a part of have not made condemnation of the Catholic church the center of their messaging (actually quite far from it). The Gospel of Witness Lee is based on an active condemnation of believers.

The LSM is so whacky that without a drumbeat of how bad and scary Christianity is (those poor, poor, people) - they wouldn't be able to keep the doors open. True Christianity points to Scripture and the message of Jesus.

I saw this first hand for an entire year - the LSM propaganda machine led by elders, those deceived by FTTA, and those born into the LSM lead the charge. But I had tasted and seen the Lord - my eyes were open. I gave the LSM churches a chance to show me their light, but found that behind those doors is lifeless, full of confusion, and lacking the beauty of Christ and His Spirit. I'm not writing to convince you of anything Evangelical, I'm afraid it is beyond that point. Feel free to have the last word.

Titus Chu, regional Midwest leader, to his credit had long discarded the LC mantra of constant condemnation of Christianity. Perhaps it was a point of contention with the Blindeds worthy of excommunication?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Read almost any LSM document or attend almost any LSM approved meeting. You'll hear condemnation of Christians. The Christian churches that I've attended or been a part of have not made condemnation of the Catholic church the center of their messaging (actually quite far from it). The Gospel of Witness Lee is based on an active condemnation of believers.

The LSM is so whacky that without a drumbeat of how bad and scary Christianity is (those poor, poor, people) - they wouldn't be able to keep the doors open. True Christianity points to Scripture and the message of Jesus.

I saw this first hand for an entire year - the LSM propaganda machine led by elders, those deceived by FTTA, and those born into the LSM lead the charge. But I had tasted and seen the Lord - my eyes were open. I gave the LSM churches a chance to show me their light, but found that behind those doors is lifeless, full of confusion, and lacking the beauty of Christ and His Spirit. I'm not writing to convince you of anything Evangelical, I'm afraid it is beyond that point. Feel free to have the last word.

"The Gospel of Witness Lee is based on an active condemnation of believers."

If that is true then we should be able to find condemnation of believers in a "Witness Lee Gospel tract".

There is a list of about 20 tracts here:

http://www.lsm.org/tracts.html

Here is your opportunity to prove yourself right. Please refer to which one of those gospel tracts condemns believers. "Read almost any LSM document" is true, then we should expect that "almost any" , say, 90%, of those 20 tracts should contain condemnation of believers.

[Sons to Glory!]

Question: When does trying to prove something become an accusation, and is there really a difference (some may want to debate this too!)?

So much of this forum is devoted to enumerating the sins of the Recovery. Sure, it is in the name of "getting the truth out" and perhaps some understanding and maybe healing. But at some point - what is the point? Do we just become another accuser of the brethren?

Yes, so many mistakes were made. Authority and central control (overt & covert) got out of control. Okay, fine. Where is Christ!? Is He going over and over all the finer points, ad nauseum, of our sins? No.

As for me, I feel to move on from sin consciousness . . .

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Question: When does trying to prove something become an accusation, and is there really a difference (some may want to debate this too!)?

So much of this forum is devoted to enumerating the sins of the Recovery. Sure, it is in the name of "getting the truth out" and perhaps some understanding and maybe healing. But at some point - what is the point? Do we just become another accuser of the brethren?

Yes, so many mistakes were made. Authority and central control (overt & covert) got out of control. Okay, fine. Where is Christ!? Is He going over and over all the finer points, ad nauseum, of our sins? No.

As for me, I feel to move on from sin consciousness . . .

Like I said..... good luck with that!

[Sons to Glory!]

Here are the two things we've listed so far, regarding good things to be promoted by the LC:

1. Open meetings - encouraging all to function
2. The Emphasis on the Indwelling Christ

So here's a third - Calling on the name of the Lord

Again, this doesn't mean the LC was necessarily the originator of the idea or practice, or that there weren't abuses and degradation from the idea. It just means that it was something they strongly promoted

"When you call you get the person of that Name!"

Calling on the name of the Lord has been something really saving in my life. Wherever I go or whatever I find myself in, I can call His name to myself or out loud. The word tells us that to breath the name of Jesus is a function of the Holy Spirit, and I am here to attest this is true! This fact is found in a number of places in the NT, Psalms and elsewhere. "Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." There is no time limit and no shelf life to this.

The Lord had me out in the middle of the desert drying out for a few years. When I returned to consistent fellowship (here in Scottsdale) He showed me that while I thought I was totally in the toilet during that time, I still had not completely denied His name. That is, I would still occasionally sigh, "Lord Jesus" in a calling way to Him. He let me know that He heard me and saved me!

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

When does trying to prove something become an accusation, and is there really a difference?

Thanks for your thoughtful post Sons to Glory! While there may be some people here "trying to prove something" (and for those who are, they are just as welcomed as anyone else) I think the majority of posters are here just wanting to come to terms with, and maybe make some sense of, all that we went through in the Local Church of Witness Lee. A side benefit, I hope and pray, is that other Forum members and lurkers may be helped by our back and forth dialogue. Healthy debate can and should be a profitable exercise for all concerned: "Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another." (Proverbs 27:17)

I would replace your term "accusation" with another word: "try". As mature Christians we are not called to accuse, per se, but we are called to try, to test and to discern. "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1) "But have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false." (Revelation 2:2)

Clearly, Witness Lee and many of the teachings and practices he established in the Local Church, have been "tried and tested", and have been found wanting at best, and in many cases found to be patently false. Witness Lee, in so many words, and in so many ways, and through so many deputies, proclaimed himself, not only "an apostle", but "The One Apostle for the age". Lee himself placed himself in the position of being tried and tested. And tried and tested he was - from those within and from those without. And just as was the case with the teachings and practices he established, Lee himself has been found wanting, and many have come to the conclusion that the man was a false apostle of sorts.

So, one may fairly ask, "Why still all the trying and testing, the man has been laid to rest for over 20 years?". My retort would be simple and short: Because the current leadership in the Local Church Movement continues to publicly insist on proclaiming and extolling the virtues of the person and work of Witness Lee. They still loudly proclaim and heartily extol (the person) Witness Lee as "The One Minister for The Age", and insist that (the work) his personal ministry - his personal interpretations - be honored and lauded as "the One Ministry for the Age". So as long as the leadership (and the vocal majority of LC members) continue on with their proclaiming and extolling, there will always be, I'm quite sure, at least a small remnant of vanquished foes who continue on with the trying and testing.

As for me, I feel to move on from sin consciousness

As my good friend Drake likes to say: Good luck with that!

Seriously though, I only wish Witness Lee and the Blended Brothers could have come to such a crises of conscience....if they had, we wouldn't be here at this little popcorn stand today.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I would replace your term "accusation" with another word: "try". As mature Christians we are not called to accuse, per se, but we are called to try, to test and to discern. "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1) "But have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false." (Revelation 2:2)

Clearly, Witness Lee and many of the teachings and practices he established in the Local Church, have been "tried and tested", and have been found wanting at best, and in many cases found to be patently false. Witness Lee, in so many words, and in so many ways, and through so many deputies, proclaimed himself, not only "an apostle", but "The One Apostle for the age".

Amen to this. Paul exhorts us to "test all things, hold on to the good." (I Thess 5.21) Now dear brothers like Drake would love for us to abandon instructions such as this one, but when the children of God are hurt and stumbled, then the admonition of the scriptures should be our guide.

Here's another scripture (Proverbs 28.13) which Lee and the Blendeds should have heeded over the years:

"Whoever conceals his sins shall not prosper,
But whoever confesses and forsakes them will find mercy."

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

"Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another." (Proverbs 27:17)

I would replace your term "accusation" with another word: "try". As mature Christians we are not called to accuse, per se, but we are called to try, to test and to discern. "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1) "But have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false." (Revelation 2:2)

Thanks for that thoughtful reply! Iron does sharpen iron. Deep calls unto deep. Spirit builds up spirit.

I'll convey some fellowship I had with a brother yesterday over lunch about this same thing. I told him about my rediscovery of this forum, after not being on here for six years (I truly forgot about this forum until someone recently sent me a link to Don Rutledge's "History" posted on here). We had a nice little chat about reviewing and analyzing all things LC online, and also about having discussions of same. He said he is aware of many such online discussions, books, etc. He said he has had many opportunities to jump in and write things to clarify, correct or update various matters, as he has been around since the very early 1970s, and has been in a position of leadership a good part of that time. He said that he could certainly write large books on the topic - as we probably all could!

But the Lord checks him each time he starts to do this and he has little appetite for it. We discussed how after reading about these things at length or being in long discussions with someone about the sins of the LC and WL, we are just deadened in spirit. (although the flesh may get all worked up)

So of course all things are lawful, but not all things are profitable for building up. Is the end result love for our brothers or a critical spirit that wants to make our point?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

But the Lord checks him each time he starts to do this and he has little appetite for it. We discussed how after reading about these things at length or being in long discussions with someone about the sins of the LC and WL, we are just deadened in spirit. (although the flesh may get all worked up)

So of course all things are lawful, but not all things are profitable for building up. Is the end result love for our brothers or a critical spirit that wants to make our point?

And why would the authors of the books of the N.T. (including Jesus Himself) waste so much time warning others about unruly brothers, false teachings, religious dogs, leaven and errors, false prophets, false Christs, false apostles, false teachers, Jewish celebrations, pagan idols, etc. when they could have spent all their time "caring for life?"

Didn't all this time Paul spent night and day in tears (Acts 20.31) admonishing the saints "deaden his spirit?" Especially when he warned them in 20.30 that certain evil men would "rise up speaking perverted things to draw the disciples after themselves?" When Paul cautioned all the churches in his many epistles, why didn't the Lord "check him?" You would think that Paul, the great apostle to the Gentiles, would have "no appetite" for such things, because his flesh would get all worked up?"

Makes no sense.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I would replace your term "accusation" with another word: "try". As mature Christians we are not called to accuse, per se, but we are called to try, to test and to discern. "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1) "But have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false." (Revelation 2:2)

The problem I see is that the biblical tests UntoHim mentioned aren't actually used by most people, so their discernment is wrong. For example, 1 John 4:1 says to test the spirits, but verses 2 and 3 tell us how. Instead of applying such tests, this forum becomes a platform for people to share their "hunch" about Lee's ministry which is based on non-biblical tests such as the test of comparison (e.g. "Lee's calling seems like middle eastern chanting so it must be middle eastern false religion") or some subjective opinion. Hunches become facts, facts become reality, just like the old witch-hunts when they had no better way to discern whether someone was a witch or not other than to see if they floated or sunk.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Question: When does trying to prove something become an accusation, and is there really a difference (some may want to debate this too!)?

So much of this forum is devoted to enumerating the sins of the Recovery. Sure, it is in the name of "getting the truth out" and perhaps some understanding and maybe healing. But at some point - what is the point? Do we just become another accuser of the brethren?

Yes, so many mistakes were made. Authority and central control (overt & covert) got out of control. Okay, fine. Where is Christ!? Is He going over and over all the finer points, ad nauseum, of our sins? No.

As for me, I feel to move on from sin consciousness . . .

You pose an interesting question here. Many of the long time posters could probably do a better job estimating, but many people on this forum have shared testimony of gratitude for the posters of this forum (many who started off “lurkers”).I pray that even more parents and college students have been deterred from joining the Witness Lee churches because of the truth exposed here.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Question: When does trying to prove something become an accusation, and is there really a difference (some may want to debate this too!)?

The question is answered when we closely examine an overwhelming number of credible witnesses who step forward with testimony to protect the children of God from damage and expose LSM's unrighteousness.

So much of this forum is devoted to enumerating the sins of the Recovery. Sure, it is in the name of "getting the truth out" and perhaps some understanding and maybe healing. But at some point - what is the point? Do we just become another accuser of the brethren?

The Bible has recorded the sins of many men of God "for our admonition" as the Bible informs us. We are not just "enumerating their sins," but protecting the hurt and wounded. We address past sins, covered up by LSM's leadership, because the members have been deceived.

Yes, so many mistakes were made. Authority and central control (overt covert) got out of control. Okay, fine. Where is Christ!? Is He going over and over all the finer points, ad nauseum, of our sins? No.

Mistakes? Hey, I agree that everyone is entitled to a few "mistakes." But we are not talking about inadvertent "mistakes," but we are discussing carefully planned stratagems at LSM to deceive God's people, coverup crimes, and smear the reputations of those whose only "crime" is to speak their conscience in order to protect the children of God. Read John Ingalls book "Speaking the Truth in Love."

[Sons to Glory!]

Brothers - just calling it as I see it. Too much of a "good thing" is still too much.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Brothers - just calling it as I see it. Too much of a "good thing" is still too much.

This thread is about "Some Good Things to Come Out of the Recovery."

Good things are of God, because only God is good. Good things produce good fruit. How then can a "good thing" be too much?

LSM has long claimed the exclusive market for all "good things" from God. We now have much time to evaluate whether all of their "good things" are really good. LSM has literally thousands of websites in cyberspace all championing these "good things," and until now no one has said that these are too much.

Or are you saying that this one solitary forum of ex-members is too much?

[Sons to Glory!]

Yes, maybe I lack understanding of what this forum is really about. It seems (and I could be wrong) that it exists and is slanted to bash (perhaps expose is a better word . . .) all things WL & LC.

[Sons to Glory!]

Well alrighty then . . . back to the topic. So I've listed three items I think were good things to come out of the LC hootenanny.

Anyone have something they want to say about those or add something of their own?

(I'm trying to "have good luck with that")

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Well alrighty then . . . back to the topic. So I've listed three items I think were good things to come out of the LC hootenanny.

Anyone have something they want to say about those or add something of their own?

(I'm trying to "have good luck with that")

Sons to Glory,

You are now enlightened.

Therefore, you might reconsider that topic in this forum as........

Drake

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Here are the two things we've listed so far, regarding good things to be promoted by the LC:

1. Open meetings - encouraging all to function
2. The Emphasis on the Indwelling Christ

So here's a third - Calling on the name of the Lord

Again, this doesn't mean the LC was necessarily the originator of the idea or practice, or that there weren't abuses and degradation from the idea. It just means that it was something they strongly promoted

"When you call you get the person of that Name!"

Calling on the name of the Lord has been something really saving in my life. Wherever I go or whatever I find myself in, I can call His name to myself or out loud. The word tells us that to breath the name of Jesus is a function of the Holy Spirit, and I am here to attest this is true! This fact is found in a number of places in the NT, Psalms and elsewhere. "Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." There is no time limit and no shelf life to this.

The Lord had me out in the middle of the desert drying out for a few years. When I returned to consistent fellowship (here in Scottsdale) He showed me that while I thought I was totally in the toilet during that time, I still had not completely denied His name. That is, I would still occasionally sigh, "Lord Jesus" in a calling way to Him. He let me know that He heard me and saved me!

I agree with those three things and wish they were more prevalent in Christian circles. For me learning the leading of the Holy Spirit in my human spirit. Another was relying on the written word of God in the Holy Bible as the ultimate authority of God's truth. But both of those also ultimately led me out because the Recovery replaced both with the Living Stream Ministry

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by JJ

I agree with those three things and wish they were more prevalent in Christian circles. For me learning the leading of the Holy Spirit in my human spirit. Another was relying on the written word of God in the Holy Bible as the ultimate authority of God's truth. But both of those also ultimately led me out because the Recovery replaced both with the Living Stream Ministry

Agreed.

Yes, the human spirit is certainly a key truth. Back then (45 years ago) I wasn't aware of anyone speaking about humans having a spirit and using the word of God to show this. Twenty years ago, when I became aware that there were actually others having a genuine walk with Him apart from the LC, I saw that there were a few who spoke of our spirit.

Now I hear about our spirit a little more (on the radio & TV) and some Christian speakers do give verses which show the tripartite man. But, sorry to say, there still isn't much light regarding the actual walking in spirit and experiencing Christ through one's spirit - just usually so much OT application of new covenant truths - the main one being Christ in us! But, thanks be to God for the light that has been seen so far in Christendom regarding our human spirit!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by JJ

I agree with those three things and wish they were more prevalent in Christian circles. For me learning the leading of the Holy Spirit in my human spirit. Another was relying on the written word of God in the Holy Bible as the ultimate authority of God's truth. But both of those also ultimately led me out because the Recovery replaced both with the Living Stream Ministry

This is one of the most amazing things about the LC experience -- we did learn much from the Bible about following the Lord, but it was what we learned which caused us to leave the LC.

Concerning the "work of ministry," many of us were helped by Nee's book The Normal Christian Churchlife. Yet when I reread that book with the other brothers in the church, I was shocked by how far removed the practices of LSM and many LC's were from both the New Testament pattern and Nee's more detailed instructions! According to Nee's teachings, supposedly our handbook for churchlife ministry, in many regards we were worse than the denominations!

We were not the first to learn this. Many others have compared Nee's book to the practices of Lee and the Blendeds today. One story I heard was Lee's comment when confronted with these gross discrepancies -- "Don't tell me about Nee's book, I was there!"

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by JJ
I agree with those three things and wish they were more prevalent in Christian circles. For me learning the leading of the Holy Spirit in my human spirit. Another was relying on the written word of God in the Holy Bible as the ultimate authority of God's truth. But both of those also ultimately led me out because the Recovery replaced both with the Living Stream Ministry

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is one of the most amazing things about the LC experience -- we did learn much from the Bible about following the Lord, but it was what we learned which caused us to leave the LC.

Concerning the "work of ministry," many of us were helped by Nee's book The Normal Christian Churchlife. Yet when I reread that book with the other brothers in the church, I was shocked by how far removed the practices of LSM and many LC's were from both the New Testament pattern and Nee's more detailed instructions! According to Nee's teachings, supposedly our handbook for churchlife ministry, in many regards we were worse than the denominations!

We were not the first to learn this. Many others have compared Nee's book to the practices of Lee and the Blendeds today. One story I heard was Lee's comment when confronted with these gross discrepancies -- "Don't tell me about Nee's book, I was there!"

It is certainly a supreme irony, isn't it!? I remember in the 1980s some mussing whether or not we might ever fall into the Laodacien thing - having supposed riches (and we knew we had the riches!), yet being poor, blind and naked. We thought long and hard on it for maybe 5 seconds and said, "Nah!"

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

It is certainly a supreme irony, isn't it!? I remember in the 1980s some mussing whether or not we might ever fall into the Laodacien thing - having supposed riches (and we knew we had the riches!), yet being poor, blind and naked. We thought long and hard on it for maybe 5 seconds and said, "Nah!"

I quit saying "Nah." I actually thought I had an obligation to save the LC from Laodicea It took a couple of years or so, then Laodicea got rid of me.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

It is certainly a supreme irony, isn't it!? I remember in the 1980s some mussing whether or not we might ever fall into the Laodacien thing - having supposed riches (and we knew we had the riches!), yet being poor, blind and naked. We thought long and hard on it for maybe 5 seconds and said, "Nah!"

Witness Lee himself said the LC's were Laodicea.

Thinking about it now -- why didn't Brother Lee ever take some responsibility? Every 5 or 10 years we had some major "storm" blow thru the Recovery due to some scandal at LSM -- yet instead of genuine repentance, all I ever heard was the blame game. Then another round of excommunications.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Mistakes? Hey, I agree that everyone is entitled to a few "mistakes." But we are not talking about inadvertent "mistakes," but we are discussing carefully planned stratagems at LSM to deceive God's people, coverup crimes, and smear the reputations of those whose only "crime" is to speak their conscience in order to protect the children of God. Read John Ingalls book "Speaking the Truth in Love."

I have his book around here somewhere I think and read it about 20 years or so ago, right around the time I started meeting in this lovely place called Scottsdale Church. I remember also talking with him via phone for a brief while about it all (I was still intensely in the throws of trying to recover from Recovery negatives then - I didn't even know what I didn't know).

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I didn't even know what I didn't know).

Whoa! Wow! Me too! I feel my spirit led me out of the LC. I didn't know all the reasons why. I actually knew very little.

It took me years, decades, to discover the reasons for leaving. And I'm still learning.

That line, quoted above, was deep brother. Thanks.

[Sons to Glory!]

So now we've listed three good things to come out of The Recovery (even though they may not have been the originator) and we've got off on a few "interesting" discussions around them . . .

Here's what we have so far:

1. Open meetings - encouraging all to function
2. The Emphasis on the Indwelling Christ
3. Calling on the name of the Lord

Here's my fourth, which may set off a real flurry of discussion:

4. Taking in the Pure Milk of the Word

I was considering this last item in my morning time today. To me drinking the pure milk of the word is about getting nourishment - not just some mental education. The Recovery wasn't the first to talk about taking the word in by prayer. And I'll certainly admit some of the corporate pray-reading times I've experienced were often quite mechanical. But I'm talking about reading a verse and then talking to the Lord about it (out loud when possible).

There are many references in scripture about engaging our mouths with the word of God. Something happens when we begin to pray, speak His word and sing out loud. It isn't about memorizing (which isn't bad) or just gaining knowledge (which isn't bad), but something that actually nourishes us and builds us up in spirit.

I am thankful for this!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

Whoa! Wow! Me too! I feel my spirit led me out of the LC. I didn't know all the reasons why. I actually knew very little.

It took me years, decades, to discover the reasons for leaving. And I'm still learning.

That line, quoted above, was deep brother. Thanks.

I don't think I was mature enough to know to avoid many of the things the Lord kept me from - but praise God He did!!! Just like a couple "blow-ups" that happened here in Scottsdale (20 years ago & 10 years ago) - He physically kept me from both of them! His mercy and grace.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So now we've listed three good things to come out of The Recovery (even though they may not have been the originator) and we've got off on a few "interesting" discussions around them . . .

Here's what we have so far:

1. Open meetings - encouraging all to function
2. The Emphasis on the Indwelling Christ
3. Calling on the name of the Lord

Here's my fourth, which may set off a real flurry of discussion:

4. Taking in the Pure Milk of the Word

I was considering this last item in my morning time today. To me drinking the pure milk of the word is about getting nourishment - not just some mental education. The Recovery wasn't the first to talk about taking the word in by prayer. And I'll certainly admit some of the corporate pray-reading times I've experienced were often quite mechanical. But I'm talking about reading a verse and then talking to the Lord about it (out loud when possible).

There are many references in scripture about engaging our mouths with the word of God. Something happens when we begin to pray, speak His word and sing out loud. It isn't about memorizing (which isn't bad) or just gaining knowledge (which isn't bad), but something that actually nourishes us and builds us up in spirit.

I am thankful for this!

I will second pray reading the word, brother....I love praying His word to Him, aloud, declaring it wonderful, operative, light, truth, and all good things....I think the Lord loves it too. I always get enjoyment, illuminated, etc...
Faith comes by hearing, and that by the word of God....is that accurate? I believe we can even grow our own faith by reading His word aloud....me and my kids are reading through the gospel of John to each other at bedtime this month...It is blessing us all!

[Evangelical]

Another good thing is the love feast although I never have seen it practiced in the same way as the early church.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Another good thing is the love feast although I never have seen it practiced in the same way as the early church.

I love to eat with the whole group! How did the early church do it?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I love to eat with the whole group! How did the early church do it?

It was for believers only, not unbelievers, and excess food was distributed to the poor.

But due to widespread abuse of the practice it was banned by the time of the middle ages I think.

[Sons to Glory!]

Alrighty, here's what we have thus far of good things to come out of the so called "Recovery":

1. Open meetings - encouraging all to function
2. The Emphasis on the Indwelling Christ
3. Calling on the name of the Lord
4. Taking in the Pure Milk of the Word

Now here's a 5th and perhaps final one (as I may be growing weary of all this):

One church; One city

Just speaking for myself, but while I know that this was used in a divisive way (perhaps inadvertently) by some in the LC, I think the basic principle is pretty doggone sound. For far too long it has just been accepted practice by Christians to divide and divide again, to the point that all this division just seems normal somehow. But as Paul asks, "Is Christ divided?"

And again, this "one church one city" teaching wound-up (like all teachings apart from Christ) as something that just puffed up and divided. As Paul told the Corinthians, "Some say 'I am of Paul'; some say 'I am of Cepheus', 'some say 'I am of Christ.'" The ones saying they were of Christ were doctrinally correct, but wrong in their prideful stance - which only divided them from others.

I remember reading a book I got so much enjoyment in my spirit from - and an incredible amount of grace (the most pleasurable aspect of grace - bubbling up from deep in my spirit). It was called the "Speciality, Generality & Practicality of the Church Life" by Witness Lee (1983). In fact, I can't recall being graced by any other book, apart from the Bible, more than this one! It showed how one we really are. This book talked about how to not focus on the minor doctrinal points and differences between believers - and, of course, there's a lot of them! The Lord spoke this to me in a way I could never forget --- most all Christian divisions are silly and vain works of the flesh. Lee said the only things we should hold firm to, with others, were just the key things of our faith, such as Christ's divinity; Him and His atoning work being the One Way; the Bible being the Word of God, etc. All else should be laid aside to not stumble a brother and to keep the oneness (that is, we should be very general about these noncritical things).

I just dug up my old coffee-stained copy of this book and quickly leafed through it again. I see nothing about the need to doggedly hold to a "one church - one city" doctrine as a central article of our faith. So, while I think OCOC is a sound principle illustrated in the NT, and I thank God for it, I don't think anyone should hold to it as a key article of their Christian faith - lest they cause a division by it.

[Evangelical]

One church per city is not meant to be a doctrine, but a reality. Insert Lee's moon analogy here. Catholic and others practice one church per city but that is different.

Does anyone know why one church per city is sound (besides it being that way in the early church)? What is the principle for it? I know the answer, but many people don't. Maybe Drake knows, Sons to Glory maybe. If you understand the principle, the one church per city idea will make sense. If you don't get the principle, it won't make sense.

[Sons to Glory!]

Perhaps OCOC didn't start out as a doctrine, but I believe that's what it became. And at least according to the WL book I cited, he did not consider it a central article of faith, or at least at that time (1983).

And no, I'm not sure what specific principle you're referring to that it's based on - unless it's the principle of the One life in the one body.

[Evangelical]

I see it like this - in each city, there is one church. So in practice, there should be one church, in each city.

The one body, or one loaf on the table principle, is one principle yes. But think about what one body means in practice, and how it relates to one church per city. Why is it per city, why not per one Creed or other thing?

[Sons to Glory!]

I see it like that too. That's why I am free to fellowship with any one who has Christ in them, the hope of glory. As WL said in that book, just focus on the key items of the one faith and we won't get into divisive things. To me it makes no difference where they meet or what name they might happen to call themselves, because in reality we're all one bro!

Heading out the door to a baseball game and can't answer your question now. (but the answer's really simple - hint: it's the Arizona Diamondbacks)

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I know the answer, but many people don't. Maybe Drake knows, Sons to Glory maybe. If you understand the principle, the one church per city idea will make sense. If you don't get the principle, it won't make sense.

Loved this, had to retweet. Untohim- can we make this the featured post for Witness Wednesday?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I see it like this - in each city, there is one church. So in practice, there should be one church, in each city.

The one body, or one loaf on the table principle, is one principle yes. But think about what one body means in practice, and how it relates to one church per city. Why is it per city, why not per one Creed or other thing?

O-tay, back to this.

Because everything else shifts (creeds, doctrines, people, etc.), but the church in Jerusalem is just that - simple. But then when that becomes just another doctrine (as has been discussed on here ad nauseum squared), it certainly can be just another divisive thing. Been there. Done that. Wore out and outgrew that t-shirt.

But it was still a really nice t-shirt for a time . . . but even really nice t-shirts fail (1 Cor 3:8). So I gave it up to seek the perfect thing.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I remember reading a book I got so much enjoyment in my spirit from - and an incredible amount of grace (the most pleasurable aspect of grace - bubbling up from deep in my spirit). It was called the "Speciality, Generality & Practicality of the Church Life" by Witness Lee (1983). In fact, I can't recall being graced by any other book, apart from the Bible, more than this one! It showed how one we really are. This book talked about how to not focus on the minor doctrinal points and differences between believers - and, of course, there's a lot of them! The Lord spoke this to me in a way I could never forget --- most all Christian divisions are silly and vain works of the flesh. Lee said the only things we should hold firm to, with others, were just the key things of our faith, such as Christ's divinity; Him and His atoning work being the One Way; the Bible being the Word of God, etc. All else should be laid aside to not stumble a brother and to keep the oneness (that is, we should be very general about these noncritical things).

I just dug up my old coffee-stained copy of this book and quickly leafed through it again. I see nothing about the need to doggedly hold to a "one church - one city" doctrine as a central article of our faith. So, while I think OCOC is a sound principle illustrated in the NT, and I thank God for it, I don't think anyone should hold to it as a key article of their Christian faith - lest they cause a division by it.

I'm actually going to quote myself regarding this book, because it just occurred to me that this book was the first light He showed me regarding this matter. As I look back on the nearly 50 years of my Christian life, I see where He was always leading me to something and protecting and leading me away from something else. I marvel at His faithful preservation work over me, as I am certainly not smart enough to have figured these things out for myself! He gets the glory!

Through that WL book (which was pretty much all I was reading in those days + maybe a very few other "approved" authors) the Lord planted a seed in me. But after reading it, I continued to believe there was nothing of value outside the Recovery for some time. When we left Columbus OH, I had hooked up with a company that transferred me into the middle of the California Mojave Desert. I condemned myself over this, because I thought I had left God's only real move on the earth. In fact, I thought God would probably whack me good for it . . . But now I realize He put us there to dry out (that's what happens the desert) and prepare me for something new.

But for years I continued to think that the LC and its ministry were the one and only. This was until in utter despair I found myself at a Christian bookstore desperately looking for something to eat (after fasting in the desert). There were a ton of things there that were really just "junk food" Christianity or legal Christianity. It seemed as if it was all confirming what I believed was true - only the LC had the genuine article. I wandered around & around in that bookstore for over an hour, searching in despair . . . (it was a very big store)

Something said in me that I shouldn't go back to the LC, but what else was out there!? I was quite frustrated with God, and more than a little disillusioned.

But then Praise God! He led me to a book with the title, "Desiring God" by John Piper. There was something different about this book that drew me in. As I read it, words and life were leaping off the page! Could it be?! Could I have found something that was worthwhile outside of the Recovery!!?? I excitedly purchased the book and went home and started enjoying page after page over the next few weeks. This brother (Piper) had some very real and fresh experience of Christ!

Through my reading and seeking Him, my heart softened towards God. I was just starting to see what He was showing me. He then immediately led me to a group of seeking lovers of Jesus nearby, and began to show me about His love.

He is faithful!

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

O-tay, back to this.

Because everything else shifts (creeds, doctrines, people, etc.), but the church in Jerusalem is just that - simple. But then when that becomes just another doctrine (as has been discussed on here ad nauseum squared), it certainly can be just another divisive thing. Been there. Done that. Wore out and outgrew that t-shirt.

But it was still a really nice t-shirt for a time . . . but even really nice t-shirts fail (1 Cor 3:8). So I gave it up to seek the perfect thing.

Not quite the answer I was looking for but close because you mentioned the changeability of creeds, doctrines etc...

The reason is that for normal believers, locality is the only type of practical division which cannot be avoided. Division over anything else is avoidable (it can be changed). So naturally, Paul addresses different letters to Christians in different localities because that division is practically unavoidable.

So the reason for meeting by locality is because there is no other excuse one may give for not meeting with other believers. Now some may take this opportunity to say that those in the recovery should join a denomination but a denomination is not the default, normal, locality-grounded place for meeting but rather a faction. They are the ones who have the non-locality based excuse for not meeting with other believers.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

So the reason for meeting by locality is because there is no other excuse one may give for not meeting with other believers. Now some may take this opportunity to say that those in the recovery should join a denomination but a denomination is not the default, normal, locality-grounded place for meeting but rather a faction. They are the ones who have the non-locality based excuse for not meeting with other believers.

Okay . . . Do you meet with other believers then, or am I misreading this?

[Sons to Glory!]

Okay, I've got another good thing I think that was promoted by the ol' Recovery. But first, here's what we have thus far:

1. Open meetings - encouraging all to function
2. The Emphasis on the Indwelling Christ
3. Calling on the name of the Lord
4. Taking in the Pure Milk of the Word
5. One church; One city

And, drum roll please, here's the next one I've thought of: "The Building"

There was a lot of teaching around the building aspect of God's purpose in the LC, but I must confess that I didn't start to see what it was all about until maybe 10 years ago (after leaving the Recovery). And I'd never heard much about this outside "The Recovery" or its "spin-offs" . . .that is up until yesterday when a national radio brother launched into a glorious 5 minute sharing of the dwelling place of God. It was so refreshing! He really appeared to see something and was going through all these incredible verses about the temple in both the Old and New Covenants. Wow! He talked about how we are now being built up, as living stones, into a dwelling place of God. Double WOW!

Up until that point, I don't think I'd heard this from a modern, contemporary Christian outside the greater LC circle of influence. Praise Him!

(What if the Universal Church really is like Sampson - who was pretty much in the toilet, but remembered who he was - and then finishes well!? With Sampson it happened in an instant, and his name gets added to the faithful ones in Hebrews 11.)

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Okay . . . Do you meet with other believers then, or am I misreading this?

Define "other believers". Most people use the term to mean "different believers", where "different" refers to their denominational persuasion, but there is only one kind of believer. I use it to mean any other believer. I meet with any believer.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Define "other believers". Most people use the term to mean "different believers", where "different" refers to their denominational persuasion, but there is only one kind of believer. I use it to mean any other believer. I meet with any believer.

No - I meant it the way you said. (And good!)

[Sons to Glory!]

Here is where we are so far regarding good things the LC has promoted (again, not necessarily originated by the LC):

1. Open meetings - encouraging all to function
2. The Emphasis on the Indwelling Christ
3. Calling on the name of the Lord
4. Taking in the Pure Milk of the Word
5. One church; One city
6. The Building

So I mentioned a few posts ago where I heard a word from a radio preacher (Steve Gregg) recently who spoke a really rich word about how the church is a dwelling place of God. He gave several verses (OT & NT) regarding the building up for this purpose. I was nourished and encouraged. Years ago, while in the LC, I heard a lot about "The Building." But due to what I would call immaturity, I did not comprehend what this was about fully.

About 5 years ago I was camping in Colorado, and free from so many of the normal distractions, the Lord spoke something clearly to me. He told me that He was conveying His strongest desire in a way that we could understand, namely His Body, His Bride, and His Building. He impressed on me that there is nothing a man is more desirous of and focused on than these three things - his own body, his wife, and where he lives.

So the Lord has conveyed His heart's desire to us in a way we can easily identify with!

[JJ]

Yes, we heard much about building in TLR, and knew this is a matter on God’s heart. I’ve seen more practical building up among believers outside TLR in recent years and came to realize how often the word building up is associated with love. And, I think that was a missing ingredient in TLR, but see it much more talked about and practiced in community churches.

[Sons to Glory!]

And you are exactly right, JJ! In my experience, I didn't start to see what the building meant to God, until I started to realize His love was the foundation for all He does.

[Sons to Glory!]

In the end this thread had a longer run than I probably expected! (80 posts) I sort of thought that several on here would be vehemently opposed to the idea that *ANY* good thing came out of the "Recovery."

To recap, here are the good things I've put forth that I consider the LC to have promoted (again, not necessarily originated by the LC):

1. Open meetings - encouraging all to function
2. The Emphasis on the Indwelling Christ
3. Calling on the name of the Lord
4. Taking in the Pure Milk of the Word
5. One church; One city
6. The Building

(Is there any further clarification of the above needed?)

So last call . . . any further thoughts on my list (agreement, disagreement, additions, subtractions)?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

In the end this thread had a longer run than I probably expected! (80 posts) I sort of thought that several on here would be vehemently opposed to the idea that *ANY* good thing came out of the "Recovery."

To recap, here are the good things I've put forth that I consider the LC to have promoted (again, not necessarily originated by the LC):

1. Open meetings - encouraging all to function
Great idea for home or small group meetings. Not so much for the general meeting of the church on Sunday/Lords Day. What good does "encouraging all to function when the "function" is simply regurgitating the words of Witness Lee?
2. The Emphasis on the Indwelling Christ
Almost every evangelical/orthodox Christian church I've been in the last 20 years has some "emphasis on the Indwelling Christ" It may not be emphasized with the same verbiage as in the LC of Witness Lee, but the same exact basic understanding and appreciation.
3. Calling on the name of the Lord
Although I no long practice calling "OOOOHHHH LLLOOOORRRRD JEEEESSUUUUUS, I still call on the Lord many times a day. I do not find this practice profitable myself, nor biblica, I have absolutely no problem with those that do! Call Away!
4. Taking in the Pure Milk of the Word
Do you mean just reading the bible? If so, why do we need Witness Lee to do that?
5. One church; One city
Described in the NT - - NOT Prescribed. Not to mention that the Local Church does not perfectly follow this man-made construct. There are MANY cities throughout the history of the LC that have multiple meeting places (or halls) in a particular city.
6. The Building
I'm clueless about this on. "The Building".?

[Sons to Glory!]

Thanks for the response UntoHim!

To recap, here are the good things I've put forth that I consider the LC to have promoted (again, not necessarily originated by the LC):

UntoHim's comments below in Navy Blue
My comments below in green

1. Open meetings - encouraging all to function
Great idea for home or small group meetings. Not so much for the general meeting of the church on Sunday/Lords Day. What good does "encouraging all to function when the "function" is simply regurgitating the words of Witness Lee?
I wasn't speaking specifically about the LC. I just enjoy hearing the functiing of all the saints! Take yesterday's meeting in Scottsdale for example. Different ones called songs and shared why they had enjoyed them this week. Then one of the six speaking brothers gave a message on a topic the ekklesia felt was good. Then several shared about what the Lord impressed them with during the meeting and regarding the message. Other experiences/seeings/needs were shared too. Then someone called another song toward the end that they thought pertained well to the message. In closing a sister reminded us of a study they were giving this week, concerning their family's recent trip to Israel. Then we did a potluck with lots of fellowship. Gosh, was that all so enjoyable - I experienced being part of God's family in my spirit! That's the kind of open functioning I'm talking about.

2. The Emphasis on the Indwelling Christ
Almost every evangelical/orthodox Christian church I've been in the last 20 years has some "emphasis on the Indwelling Christ" It may not be emphasized with the same verbiage as in the LC of Witness Lee, but the same exact basic understanding and appreciation.
That's awesome! I hope the message gets out more and more - really the central theme of the New Covenant. Us learning how to experience the indwelling Christ is critical.

3. Calling on the name of the Lord
Although I no long practice calling "OOOOHHHH LLLOOOORRRRD JEEEESSUUUUUS, I still call on the Lord many times a day. I do not find this practice profitable myself, nor biblical, I have absolutely no problem with those that do! Call Away!
Yes, many of us have seen the way NOT to call on the Lord. It is scriptural, and He's shown me that "Not denying My name" has saved me frequently in the wilderness. Dead chanting no - but a sincere calling - yes! (audible or inaudible) A verse that's helped me is "No man can say Lord Jesus apart from the Holy Spirit." Take that to the bank!

4. Taking in the Pure Milk of the Word
Do you mean just reading the bible? If so, why do we need Witness Lee to do that?
Of course we don't need WL! If you read the earlier post describing this, it's about not going to the word just for some head knowledge. But rather taking the word in by prayer, praying it back to Him, singing it, etc. Again, not in some rote way, but meditating on the word and asking Him about it and chewing it over. Also using our mouth to audibly speak His word, when possible, helps.

5. One church; One city
Described in the NT - - NOT Prescribed. Not to mention that the Local Church does not perfectly follow this man-made construct. There are MANY cities throughout the history of the LC that have multiple meeting places (or halls) in a particular city.
I like that - "Described . . . Not prescribed." Sure, like any other dead knowledge it will just kill and divide. I see it in the NT and meet with a group that basically ascribes to the idea of not having a name per se. But it is a minor point with the ones I meet with, and for me too. If the name we meet under intentionally stumbles our brother and severs fellowship - what good is it!?

6. The Building
I'm clueless about this on. "The Building".?
I will respond about "building" in another message.
What exactly are you "clueless" about?

[Sons to Glory!]

So "the building" in the NT refers to the ekklesia (Greek: called-out gathering) being built into a dwelling place by God. The Greek word gets translated as building, edifying, up-building, etc.

According to my understanding, God uses three basic terms for what He's doing with the ekklesia, body, bride and building. All three terms are used by God, I believe, to help convey to man the meaning and importance. That is, these three things a man will find critical and the center of desire. A man's body; a man's bride; and a man's dwelling place. It's hard to name three things that a man would be more attuned to! God uses all three to show us how He desires us, and the way He desires to have a living relationship with us.

Christ is the head and we are His body. Therefore He is one with us, and very interested in our well being. The ekklesia is also His bride. No normal man can deny how much he desires his bride and to be completely one and in a loving relationship with her! So also is Christ's desire for us.

Then the other aspect is the building, His house, His temple. We are to be a dwelling place of God! So in this life we are being built up into a habitation. All we do either builds up or tears down this dwelling place. Ephesians is one book that is full of speaking regarding this building work. The letter to Philadelphia in Revelation is also full of this. The Bible ends with the NJ, the consummation of the building work. God desires this through us!

So I don't know if that addressed your question at all regarding the building. Please let me know. If you want, I can post a short paper I wrote on the above topic (Body, Bride & Building), with scriptural references - it was an awesome revelation!

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

To recap, here are the good things I've put forth that I consider the LC to have promoted (again, not necessarily originated by the LC):

1. Open meetings - encouraging all to function
I wasn't speaking specifically about the LC. I just enjoy hearing the functiing of all the saints! Take yesterday's meeting in Scottsdale for example. Different ones called songs and shared why they had enjoyed them this week. Then one of the six speaking brothers gave a message on a topic the ekklesia felt was good. Then several shared about what the Lord impressed them with during the meeting and regarding the message. Other experiences/seeings/needs were shared too. Then someone called another song toward the end that they thought pertained well to the message. In closing a sister reminded us of a study they were giving this week, concerning their family's recent trip to Israel. Then we did a potluck with lots of fellowship. Gosh, was that all so enjoyable - I experienced being part of God's family in my spirit! That's the kind of open functioning I'm talking about.

Ok, I see now. I think this is a very great and profitable thing for your fellowship! My understanding and experience leads me to believe there is a larger "mission" for the local church (using generic term here) to serve and love the community around them. I also believe the saints need to be "equipped" for this mandated work of ministry. What you have described above is absolutely biblical and no doubt profitable for many of the church members/attendees at large, but this kind of meeting style does not necessarily help the local church fulfill the larger mission.

2. The Emphasis on the Indwelling Christ
That's awesome! I hope the message gets out more and more - really the central theme of the New Covenant. Us learning how to experience the indwelling Christ is critical.

My brother, this message has been getting out since the days of the infant church immediately after the pouring out of the Indwelling Christ (aka The Holy Spirit!) at Pentecost in Acts 2. Actually this matter of the Indwelling Christ has never had a need to be "recovered" or even emphasized any more than so many of the other great truths revealed to us in the New Testament. To be sure, it is indeed one of the central themes of the New Covenant.

3. Calling on the name of the Lord
Yes, many of us have seen the way NOT to call on the Lord. It is scriptural, and He's shown me that "Not denying My name" has saved me frequently in the wilderness. Dead chanting no - but a sincere calling - yes! (audible or inaudible) A verse that's helped me is "No man can say Lord Jesus apart from the Holy Spirit." Take that to the bank!

I should have said from the outset that I do not consider this an essential or core teaching in the NT. "Calling on The Lord" is a term used throughout the Bible with a number of diverse connotations. Certainly no one could possibly believe that it meant calling out "Oh, Lord Jesus" in the Old Testament. In fact, there is absolutely no evidence that is what it meant in the New Testament. Again, I wouldn't argue that this practice is unbiblical, per se, but I don't believe it is profitable as a common practice, at least not in the form and fashion it is employed in the Local Church.

4. Taking in the Pure Milk of the Word
Of course we don't need WL! If you read the earlier post describing this, it's about not going to the word just for some head knowledge. But rather taking the word in by prayer, praying it back to Him, singing it, etc. Again, not in some rote way, but meditating on the word and asking Him about it and chewing it over. Also using our mouth to audibly speak His word, when possible, helps.

Again, I think what you have described is something that has been taught and practiced among the vast majority of evangelical/orthodox Christians throughout the centuries. It may not be practiced in the exact manner as you have described, and there are different words and terms used by any number of Christians, but we are talking about the same exact thing. "I found thy Words and I did eat them!" Praise Him for this! "Your Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path!" Hallelujah for this lamp and this light!

5. One church; One city
I like that - "Described . . . Not prescribed." Sure, like any other dead knowledge it will just kill and divide. I see it in the NT and meet with a group that basically ascribes to the idea of not having a name per se. But it is a minor point with the ones I meet with, and for me too. If the name we meet under intentionally stumbles our brother and severs fellowship - what good is it!?

Good points. I would make the additional point that the importance of the name on the placard (or lack thereof) outside the doors is minuscule compared to the infinite importance of what is going on inside the doors.

6. The Building
I will respond about "building" in another message.
What exactly are you "clueless" about?

Ok, ok...you caught me being a little facetious here. Admittedly I'm pretty jaded when it comes to some Local Church buzz words, and "The Building" is definitely one of them. One of Witness Lee's main themes (especially towards the beginning in America) was "Life and Building". What ended up happening is that "The Building", however well-intentioned and altruistic Lee and his followers might of been, turned into the building of the person and work of Witness Lee. Not much more to say about this for me. I'm sure you had something else in mind though, and please feel free to expand/expound upon what you mean by "The building".
-

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So I don't know if that addressed your question at all regarding the building. Please let me know. If you want, I can post a short paper I wrote on the above topic (Body, Bride & Building), with scriptural references - it was an awesome revelation!

Just saw this after I posted. Please post this short paper when you get a chance.
-

[Sons to Glory!]

Here ya go! Below is what I wrote after He showed me something while camping in the mountains the summer of 2013. I often find when I get away from the daily routine, that I am able to hear Him more clearly. What He spoke to me then was regarding His Body, Bride & Building. The below encompasses all three, but focuses somewhat more on His building work. (I apologize for the format as I copied and pasted this from a Word doc.)

God’s Building Work: Importance & Reward

The importance God places on how we build-up one another as living stones in His dwelling place.

Key to verses below:
A. We are God’s dwelling place, which He is building B. Help build in love C. Judgment in building – Reward or Loss

A 1. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church (Gk. ekklesia – called out gathering), and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. Matthew 16:18

A 2. Yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house. . . 1 Peter 2:5

A 3. Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in Spirit. Ephesians 2:20-22

A 4. But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Hebrews 4:6

>>>Also see John 14:1-3, 23 “I go to prepare a place for you. . .”; “We will make our home with you.”
Revelation chapter 21: “the New Jerusalem . . . prepared as a bride adorned for her Husband.”

B 1. From whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love. Ephesians 4:16

B 2. So also you--since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, seek to excel in building up the church. What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. 1 Corinthians 14:12 & 26

B 3. For the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. Ephesians 4:12-13

B 4. All things to me are lawful, but all things are not profitable; all things to me are lawful, but all things do not build up. 1 Corinthians 10:23

B 5. No foul language is to come from your mouth, but only what is good for building up someone in need, so that it gives grace to those who hear. Ephesians 4:29

B 6. Now we who are strong have an obligation to bear the weaknesses of those without strength, and not to please ourselves. Each one of us must please his neighbor for his good, to build him up. Romans 15:1-2

B 7. So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another. Romans 14:19

C 1. But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment (Bema) seat of God. Romans 14:10

C 2. The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building. By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple. 1 Corinthians 3:8-17

C 3. For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17 (who He loves/receives He disciplines - Heb 12:6)

C 4. REWARD: Read the letter to the Church in Philadelphia, Revelation 3:7-13 (many references to the building, unique in His letters to the churches) This church, focused on love & building, receives a wonderful promise!

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man,
what God has prepared for those loving him!”
1 Corinthians 2:9

[Nell]

To provide further perspective as UntoHim has given us....

“...all things---our lives, our beings, our breath---come as gifts from God. Of ourselves we have nothing. All our notions of ownership are an illusion; all our pride, a deception. We are not sovereign but completely dependent. Everything we have---our possessions, our money, our riches, every moment of our lives---everything has been given to us.

Every heartbeat is borrowed. … “

In other words, what do we have that we didn’t receive?

The greatest failure of Lee, et al, was the failure to acknowledge what he had received and to instead take undue credit. Whatever is truly “good” comes as a gift from God. That “the recovery” credits Lee is a fundamental flaw and necessitates grasping at straws to find the “good”.

I understand the desire to exonerate “it”, but perspective is needed as UntoHim states.

Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

I'm not sure of your point - please explain. Are you saying nothing good at all came out of "The Recovery?" If so, I disagree. I know I was very specifically lead of the Lord 2500 miles to CJ's Old Garage in Berkeley in 1974 - a semi-miraculous event, to be sure! The Lord has shown me there was much good to come out there, and that He preserved me from the not so good. This is what He does.

My intention here is to provide a little balance to the overwhelming amount of posts that are completely on the negative side concerning all things LC.

[Nell]

I’m not crediting anyone or anything but God for that which is good, but you made my point for me. You were led of the Lord, not “the recovery”. The miracle was His doing, not “the recovery”. The Lord showed you...He preserved you...this is what He does. He put you where he wanted you so he could do his work in you. Was that because of where you were (the recovery) or because of his Sovereignty?

Whatever good exists is because He is good. I’m providing perspective to your balance.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

My intention here is to provide a little balance to the overwhelming amount of posts that are completely on the negative side concerning all things LC.

Thank you... There is no doubt in me God led me to the LC in 1975. It is where I became rooted and grounded in the Word of God. I experienced wonderful fellowship.. many times it was fun! FUN !! I had FUN in the LC!

I sought the LORD and the LORD won. I sought the SON and the SON Won. (thinking of the melody 'I fought the law and the law won. I fought the law and the law one).

So sorry for those who suffered and continue to suffer through the legalism and controlling reigns of the LR. May God give them the Grace and Strength, the Wisdom and Insight to throw out the dirty bathwater but not JESUS.

Remember JESUS will never leave you or forsake you and He makes all things new.

From Psalm 103:4-5
He redeems your life from the pit,
HE crowns you with lovingkindness and compassion;
(Jesus) satisfies your years with good things,
So that your youth is renewed like the eagle.


Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your understanding.
Proverbs 3:5

Showers of Healing Blessings to all.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

So sorry for those who suffered and continue to suffer through the legalism and controlling reigns of the LR. May God give them the Grace and Strength, the Wisdom and Insight to throw out the dirty bathwater but not JESUS.

Remember JESUS will never leave you or forsake you and He makes all things new.

Yes and amen! A leading bro here said the same thing recently when discussing the LC, regarding throwing out the dirty bathwater but not JESUS!

That sums up what I see here in Scottsdale. We do our best to focus on Christ and His two commandments: Love God & each other. This same bro said at breakfast this morning that he believes this is what God will look for at the Bema - "How did you handle my Son and those He lives in?"

Sovereignly Bill Freeman got the boot from the LC 30 years ago. Then there was a "house cleaning" in Scottsdale 20 years ago. God loves me so much, I almost feel like He did these things just for me! So I don't need to swim in the dirty bathwater, and can just be here enjoying Christ . . . accepted in the Beloved with all the saints!

As I've mentioned in this thread, some of the LC practices were quite sound and useful, so the saints here kept those. Things such as the open meetings with sharing and testimonies. This is so healthy and nourishing to all. And there is no overt (or even covert) insistence on any author or particular teaching - though we hope it is Christ centered and shared in love!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Nell

I’m not crediting anyone or anything but God for that which is good, but you made my point for me. You were led of the Lord, not “the recovery”. The miracle was His doing, not “the recovery”. The Lord showed you...He preserved you...this is what He does. He put you where he wanted you so he could do his work in you. Was that because of where you were (the recovery) or because of his Sovereignty?

Whatever good exists is because He is good. I’m providing perspective to your balance.

That is exactly right! He has done it and is doing it. He places members in the body as He sees fit.

My testimony is that when I had a strong experience of Him in Ohio when I was 18, I distinctly prayed, "Lord, take me to be with those who love you like I do." A week later I hitchhiked 2500 miles across country, and within a couple hours of hitting Berkeley I was miraculously lead of Him straight to CJ's Old Garage where the LC in Berkeley was meeting at the time. I had little idea about anything, but I knew He put me there! Why didn't He place me with ones in Ohio? I don't know, except that He loves me. It was all the best and according to His will. Perfect. Period.

Quite recently He showed me that He's had the bulls-eye painted right here (Scottsdale) all along, that I would be here. But many things needed to happen in order to prepare all that. He's amazing!!!!