Aron : Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

-1

This is an excellent accurate summary of the subject.

Drake

I don't know about that bro Drake. See my reply. And don't get me going on "inerrancy." Specially since you and Untohim have seemingly joined hands concerning my remark about Psalms being written over a 500 yr span, and written by fallen men ; a historical fact. And what means "God breathed?" Did God breath the pen, ink, and paper, and the authors, and their hand? You guys are smarter than me, so since we're reverse-fitting the Psalms, I'm just wonderin'?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

But prolly, pray-reading anything my lead to deeper insights into any text ; a cookbook say, or mechanic's manual.

Let’s us know what inspiration you receive when you pray-read the enchilada recipe and the description of the 13mm box wrench.

Thanks
Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

I don't know about that bro Drake. See my reply. And don't get me going on "inerrancy." Specially since you and Untohim have seemingly joined hands concerning my remark about Psalms being written over a 500 yr span, and written by fallen men ; a historical fact. And what means "God breathed?" Did God breath the pen, ink, and paper, and the authors, and their hand? You guys are smarter than me, so since we're reverse-fitting the Psalms, I'm just wonderin'?

If you reject the writings of fallen men then why do you read anything in this forum? For that matter, why do you as a fallen man write here unless you hope that we will read it?

As to Psalms, what would be an acceptable time period for you for them to be penned? 100 years ok? 10 years acceptable? 1 year?

I actually like your question posed on God breathed. I think Aron and Mr. Miller our resident scholars on the subject should have first crack at it.

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

Let’s us know what inspiration you receive when you pray-read the enchilada recipe and the description of the 13mm box wrench.

Thanks
Drake

rotflmao ....

But really, pray-reading the wiring diagram of a car may help a lot. I've certainly needed divine inspiration to cipher a solution on more than one occasion.

I'm presently reading The Lost Books of the Bible and the Forgotten Books of Eden, 44 books more than the Christian canon.

Try this brother. Pray-read this section of The Gospel of Peter, and see if you don't get the symbolic meanings :

"[35] But in the night in which the Lord's day dawned, when the soldiers were safeguarding it two by two in every watch, there was a loud voice in heaven; [36] and they saw that the heavens were opened and that two males who had much radiance had come down from there and come near the sepulcher. [37] But that stone which had been thrust against the door, having rolled by itself, went a distance off the side; and the sepulcher opened, and both the young men entered. [38] And so those soldiers, having seen, awakened the centurion and the elders (for they too were present, safeguarding). [39] And while they were relating what they had seen, again they see three males who have come out from they sepulcher, with the two supporting the other one, and a cross following them, [40] and the head of the two reaching unto heaven, but that of the one being led out by a hand by them going beyond the heavens. [41] And they were hearing a voice from the heavens saying, 'Have you made proclamation to the fallen-asleep?' [42] And an obeisance was heard from the cross, 'Yes.' [43]"

And can you, just like the Psalms, see both the human side and the Christ side?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

If you reject the writings of fallen men then why do you read anything in this forum? For that matter, why do you as a fallen man write here unless you hope that we will read it?

As to Psalms, what would be an acceptable time period for you for them to be penned? 100 years ok? 10 years acceptable? 1 year?

I actually like your question posed on God breathed. I think Aron and Mr. Miller our resident scholars on the subject should have first crack at it.

That would be nice. Let's crack it.

Is it a surprise to you that all the books of the Bible were written by fallen men? -- I'm like duh - what else could they be? -- Does it also surprise you that some of the books took centuries to completely compose?

And I still don't know what "God breathed" means. It reminds me of :

Joh 20:19 On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."
Joh 20:20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
Joh 20:21 Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you."
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
Joh 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld."

But it doesn't say anything about books.

And I love the Psalms ... parts of it ... don't like the baby bashing, nor that destroy my enemy type stuff. But those fallen men did a pretty impressive work on Psalms. Ya gotta give 'em that. It's almost like God wrote it ... or I guess, breathed it.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Sorry Harold, but the legitimacy and sanctity of the Psalms are NOT up for discussion, much less debate, on the main forum. Please take your opinions and views regarding this to Alt Views. This is my second warning regarding this matter and there won't be a third. Any further along these lines will be immediately deleted. Thanks for your cooperation.

-

Originally Posted by Aware

Tail between my legs, back to Tartarus. Come down bro Drake. I promise we won't fry you.

Had to bring this down from LCD. My second warning.

And I don't know why?????

[Evangelical]

This is my understanding of "God-breathed".

At first glance, God-breathed means all Scripture is authoritative, where to me authoritative does not mean "cannot ever be questioned or divided", for then even Luther, translators and King James would be guilty of doing that - but Scripture must have the final say wherever possible. The divine truths conveyed in Scripture are authoritative. The purpose of questioning, dividing even criticizing (though this is of the translations/versions not the truths conveyed) Scripture is in order to extract the divine truths.

God breathed into the nostrils of Adam, giving Adam life and breath. The expression must surely come from that. Adam could not have given himself life and breath - without God's breath, Adam was dead. In a like sense, God imparted truths to the authors that they never could have arrived at themselves. Without God's inspiration the Scripture would be dead. God's divine wisdom and intelligence was communicated in the writings of the authors of Scripture - Scripture was composed under divine influence.

The degree of inspiration is another matter - is it the idea conveyed in the paragraph or chapter, or is it every jot and tittle? To what extent did God inspire the authors of Scripture? How did God keep them from error?

People in the recovery can understand how God inspired the authors of scripture as it is understood that we are "one spirit with the Lord". The question of who wrote Romans for example - God or Paul, is a non-issue and does not really make sense. When Paul as an apostle put pen to paper it was as if Christ was putting pen to paper. If Paul was offering his opinion without a clear answer from Christ he would point that out (such as 1 Cor 7:10). Still, his opinion counts because of the freedom God gave him to express His opinion in the Scripture.

In the Old Testament however God did not dwell His Spirit within anyone's spirit. For this reason, it might seem that the Old Testament authors were more prone to error. However there is the external influence of God's Spirit, His Sovereignty over circumstances, and even use of ministering angels to deliver truths and protect from error. There is really no basis to say the NT was "more inspired" than the Old just because God could not indwell man. However the OT authors such as David were not regenerated men - their self nature and sin nature was not dealt with on the cross. There is possibility for their human concepts and failures to come through. But even this is for a purpose, for God to communicate to us the truth about human nature and the need for Christ. However we should see the divine truth and purpose and distinguish where necessary human concepts from divine ones and this is called "dividing scripture". There are many ways to divide scripture but this one makes most sense to me .

2 Tim 2:15 says to "rightly divide" scripture, implying that there is a wrong way to divide Scripture. Prosperity teachers for example divide scripture based upon what it says about finances and healthy living. Baptists divide scripture based on what it says about baptism, and Catholics divide scripture based upon what it says about faith and works. The way they divide scripture is based upon what they think Scripture is for. Prosperity teachers think Scripture is to make us healthy and wealthy, Catholics think Scripture is to guide us in doing good works and right living, and Baptists think Scripture is to show us how to be baptized properly. If we think that Scripture is to present Christ to us, then I cannot fault a method of dividing Scripture which divides parts speaking about Christ from those which speak about other things.

Aron and others do not like us dividing scripture by human vs divine concepts, because they must believe that all Scripture as in every jot and tittle speaks about Christ regardless of what it actually says. This is more of a mechanical view of divine inspiration because it suggests that the words on the page are the divinely inspired Scripture. This view can sometimes place an emphasis on error-free translations, versions, and using the absolutely best and most correct manuscripts. "KJV-onlyists" and others fall into this category.

Others on the other hand may not see a problem with dividing Scripture if they think that only parts which can inspire them about Christ are divinely inspired. This is an "organic view" of divine inspiration - whatever the Scripture says, regardless of whether it contains translation errors or not, the Spirit will provide the correct understanding.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

This is my understanding of "God-breathed".

I'm impressed you have the moxie to give it try.

Originally Posted by E

At first glance, God-breathed means all Scripture is authoritative, . . . . . . but Scripture must have the final say wherever possible.

That doesn't define scripture. If God breathes scripture, and not all writings are scripture, then how do we know which are God breathed?

Take 2 Tim 3:16 for example. How do we know if it's God breathed or not? Many top Bible scholars today say 1st and 2nd Timothy are pseudepigraphal, and not written by Paul. Did God breath thru someone else?

But let's say that it is God breathed, that Paul wrote it. That means it was written before Paul died -- c. mid 60s -- and was among our earliest New Testament books, before all the rest of the NT was written.

So if 3:16 is God breathed, we can safely say that all the books before it -- the OT - the God breathed ones (the OT canon wasn't solidified yet) -- but can't be so sure of the ones that come after it. And there were books written after it that aren't in the Christian canon of today ... that were written around the same time as the canonical gospels, but weren't considered God breathed ... by a non-Spirit inspired (God-breathed) method, by the way.

Do you get what I'm driving at? Do you Grok me bro?

Originally Posted by E

The divine truths conveyed in Scripture are authoritative.

Okay. Got that.

Originally Posted by E

The purpose of questioning, dividing even criticizing (though this is of the translations/versions not the truths conveyed) Scripture is in order to extract the divine truths.

To extract divine truths don't we need God's breath to do it? And if we have divine breath what do we need of books written 2000 and 3000 years ago, when we actually have the divine truth, from the horse's mouth, so to speak?

Originally Posted by E

God breathed into the nostrils of Adam, giving Adam life and breath. The expression must surely come from that.

Then in that case if we are breathing we have divine breath ; the word for breath in the canon is the same for the word Spirit.

Originally Posted by E

God's divine wisdom and intelligence was communicated in the writings of the authors of Scripture - Scripture was composed under divine influence.

How so? Was it dictated? Did the authors transcribe God's actual words?

Originally Posted by E

To what extent did God inspire the authors of Scripture? How did God keep them from error?

People in the recovery can understand how God inspired the authors of scripture as it is understood that we are "one spirit with the Lord".

So now to understand scripture, and its inspiration, we need to be in the Recovery?

Originally Posted by E

When Paul as an apostle put pen to paper it was as if Christ was putting pen to paper.

Paul my have been speaking, writing, or dictating, revelation, but at the time he had no idea that he was writing scripture. As bro Ohio once remarked, "We're reading someone else's mail."

Originally Posted by E

In the Old Testament however God did not dwell His Spirit within anyone's spirit.

In the Bible, who was the first person to be indwelt by the Spirit? It was Bezalel the son of Uri, son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, in Exodus 31:2-3.

Originally Posted by E

For this reason, it might seem that the Old Testament authors were more prone to error. However there is the external influence of God's Spirit, His Sovereignty over circumstances, and even use of ministering angels to deliver truths and protect from error.

But God's sovereignty didn't overpower the free will of the author's ... RIGHT? Nor the free will of scribes, that edited it, changed it, add to it, deleted from it, over the years, after the first draft was submitted... RIGHT?

Originally Posted by E

However the OT authors such as David were not regenerated men

Well don't say that on the open LCD section - the Evangelical section - saying that got me in trouble.

Originally Posted by E

- their self nature and sin nature was not dealt with on the cross.

I once brought this up to a preacher who believes the Bible is the inerrant inspired word of God. He said the cross applied thru-out all of history.

Originally Posted by E

2 Tim 2:15 says to "rightly divide" scripture, implying that there is a wrong way to divide Scripture.

Obviously there are many ways to divide the scripture. Just don't point out that books were written over centuries, and by fallen men, on the open forum. Apparently, God doesn't breath historical fact.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

I'm impressed you have the moxie to give it try.


That doesn't define scripture. If God breathes scripture, and not all writings are scripture, then how do we know which are God breathed?

Take 2 Tim 3:16 for example. How do we know if it's God breathed or not? Many top Bible scholars today say 1st and 2nd Timothy are pseudepigraphal, and not written by Paul. Did God breath thru someone else?

But let's say that it is God breathed, that Paul wrote it. That means it was written before Paul died -- c. mid 60s -- and was among our earliest New Testament books, before all the rest of the NT was written.

So if 3:16 is God breathed, we can safely say that all the books before it -- the OT - the God breathed ones (the OT canon wasn't solidified yet) -- but can't be so sure of the ones that come after it. And there were books written after it that aren't in the Christian canon of today ... that were written around the same time as the canonical gospels, but weren't considered God breathed ... by a non-Spirit inspired (God-breathed) method, by the way.

Do you get what I'm driving at? Do you Grok me bro?

If it's in the bible, it's God-breathed. Regardless of the author. Because I have God's-breath, if you give me any book, I could tell you if it is Scripture or not. That's essentially how 300 people decided which books of the bible are Canon and which are not.

Originally Posted by awareness

To extract divine truths don't we need God's breath to do it? And if we have divine breath what do we need of books written 2000 and 3000 years ago, when we actually have the divine truth, from the horse's mouth, so to speak?

I can't say this in the open forum but I tend to agree - any believer could write a book of the Bible if they wanted to. Many do, they call them books and sell them in bookstores. Why this is such a big thing? Perhaps because the Bible alone is insufficient.

Originally Posted by awareness

How so? Was it dictated? Did the authors transcribe God's actual words?

As one spirit with the Lord.

Originally Posted by awareness

So now to understand scripture, and its inspiration, we need to be in the Recovery?

Only the Recovery to my knowledge knows about being one spirit with the Lord and what that means.

Originally Posted by awareness

Paul my have been speaking, writing, or dictating, revelation, but at the time he had no idea that he was writing scripture. As bro Ohio once remarked, "We're reading someone else's mail."

That could be said for Moses, David, anyone.

Originally Posted by awareness

In the Bible, who was the first person to be indwelt by the Spirit? It was Bezalel the son of Uri, son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, in Exodus 31:2-3.

Yes they had the Spirit but not for regeneration.

Originally Posted by awareness

But God's sovereignty didn't overpower the free will of the author's ... RIGHT? Nor the free will of scribes, that edited it, changed it, add to it, deleted from it, over the years, after the first draft was submitted... RIGHT?

This is best for a free will/sovereingty discussion.

Originally Posted by awareness

Well don't say that on the open LCD section - the Evangelical section - saying that got me in trouble.

That's why I posted here.

Originally Posted by awareness

I once brought this up to a preacher who believes the Bible is the inerrant inspired word of God. He said the cross applied thru-out all of history.

Retrospective Scripture hmm.

Originally Posted by awareness

Obviously there are many ways to divide the scripture. Just don't point out that books were written over centuries, and by fallen men, on the open forum. Apparently, God doesn't breath historical fact.

Even the errors are divinely inspired. Just like Judas's betrayal of Christ. God can inspire human mistakes for His purpose.

[awareness]

For bro Drake's sake I bring this down form the open forum :

Originally Posted by Awareness

Unfortunately we don't have any autograph copies of any of the NT books. So we can't correct the more variants in the over 5500 pieces of NT manuscripts than there are words in the NT.

Don't trust any scholar(s) that claim they know something about the NT autographs.

To believe they are inerrant is a matter of faith.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

For bro Drake's sake I bring this down form the open forum :

Brother awareness , I really care for you. For that reason, I’ll explain why I have no heart to discuss this topic you.

I have on occasion taken up similar conversations with non believers in public forums. To my observation, little or no profit resulted because as a modern poet once wrote “still a man hears what he wants hear and disregards the rest”. What has happened since those conversations took place I have no visibility but I trust the Lord to reach the heart of even the most ardent unbeliever even as he did mine once upon a time.

However, you are a brother in the Lord. If I were to have this conversation with you i suspect you would dig in deeper and would further harden your heart against the Lord and His interests in the course of making points and counterpoints. Even a provocateur may become ensnared in his own traps..... or in modern parlance, believe his own marketing hype. What you actually believe today I don’t know, but I do know that by having this particular conversation with you I could very well be contributing to you further distancing yourself from our Lord and His interests. Before the Lord, I cannot proceed on that basis.

I believe UntoHim, by moving the topic here, is suggesting something similar but less personal toward you. He is establishing the ground rule of common Christian belief about the Bible and its authenticity and authority in the main forum. Without that every conversation would descend into endless debates of the type I mentioned at first. My reasons are different than his, though I am sure he cares about your soul too so he provides you a playground in this Alternative forum... still amongst brothers in the Lord.

Now I’m starting to ramble... so the bottom line is this. I don’t have the peace before the Lord to have this particular conversation with you here.... at least at this time. If UntoHim were to allow it in the main forum then it would signal his assessment that it fits within the framework of common Christian beliefs and where differences may still and can exist.

Thanks
Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

Without that every conversation would descend into endless debates of the type I mentioned at first.

Very true, from my perspective it has been endless.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

Without that every conversation would descend into endless debates of the type I mentioned at first.

And he wasn't even around after Jesus and before the NT was written, to see all those debates.

The purpose of the canon was to still those debates. But it didn't. It just caused more debates. So then the creeds were suppose to still debates. But they didn't work either.

So Bible or not, MMS meddling and changes or not, bro Drake can't get away from endless debates. Sorry brother Drake. So let's continue our debate about all the variations and changes in the manuscripts.

It turns out that there are more variations in the MMS's than there are words in the NT. Some of them just human error, and some deliberate meddling.

[awareness]

Thanks for coming to our playground.

Originally Posted by Drake

Brother awareness , I really care for you.

From what I've seen of you out here so far, I care about you too. I just don't know if you are an oddball local church brother, or one in the higher echelon's of the LC, where you are allowed to think.

Originally Posted by Drake

I have on occasion taken up similar conversations with non believers in public forums. To my observation, little or no profit resulted because as a modern poet once wrote “still a man hears what he wants hear and disregards the rest”.

Yeah, yeah. And, “The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation."

Originally Posted by Drake

What has happened since those conversations took place I have no visibility but I trust the Lord to reach the heart of even the most ardent unbeliever even as he did mine once upon a time.

"I will draw all men."

Originally Posted by Drake

However, you are a brother in the Lord. If I were to have this conversation with you i suspect you would dig in deeper and would further harden your heart against the Lord and His interests in the course of making points and counterpoints.

Questioning the manuscripts does not necessarily harden the heart against the Lord. And I'm not the type to dig in deeper, in making points, or counter points ; not unless you plan on being combative.

Originally Posted by Drake

Even a provocateur may become ensnared in his own traps..... or in modern parlance, believe his own marketing hype. What you actually believe today I don’t know, but I do know that by having this particular conversation with you I could very well be contributing to you further distancing yourself from our Lord and His interests. Before the Lord, I cannot proceed on that basis.

You're a worrywart.

Originally Posted by Drake

I believe UntoHim, by moving the topic here, is suggesting something similar but less personal toward you. He is establishing the ground rule of common Christian belief about the Bible and its authenticity and authority in the main forum. Without that every conversation would descend into endless debates of the type I mentioned at first. My reasons are different than his, though I am sure he cares about your soul too so he provides you a playground in this Alternative forum... still amongst brothers in the Lord.

Bro zeek and I were consulting with before Untohim decided to start AltVs. We thought that he just wanted to put us into a dungeon. You are right. Untohim wants to keep the open forum holding to traditional evangelicalism. I suspect that he hasn't gotten fully over the LC yet, but God is not finished with him ... (and you've got light-years to go ... haha).

Originally Posted by Drake

the bottom line is this. I don’t have the peace before the Lord to have this particular conversation with you here.... at least at this time.

Well if learning about the variations in the MMS's would disturb your peace before the Lord I don't have the peace either. Like I've stated, it's not a salvation issue. But it might be a stumbling block to you.

Originally Posted by Drake

If UntoHim were to allow it in the main forum then it would signal his assessment that it fits within the framework of common Christian beliefs and where differences may still and can exist.

Fat chance. But anything is possible with God.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply brother.

Harold

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

Thanks for coming to our playground.


From what I've seen of you out here so far, I care about you too. I just don't know if you are an oddball local church brother, or one in the higher echelon's of the LC, where you are allowed to think.


Yeah, yeah. And, “The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation."


"I will draw all men."


Questioning the manuscripts does not necessarily harden the heart against the Lord. And I'm not the type to dig in deeper, in making points, or counter points ; not unless you plan on being combative.


You're a worrywart.


Bro zeek and I were consulting with before Untohim decided to start AltVs. We thought that he just wanted to put us into a dungeon. You are right. Untohim wants to keep the open forum holding to traditional evangelicalism. I suspect that he hasn't gotten fully over the LC yet, but God is not finished with him ... (and you've got light-years to go ... haha).


Well if learning about the variations in the MMS's would disturb your peace before the Lord I don't have the peace either. Like I've stated, it's not a salvation issue. But it might be a stumbling block to you.


Fat chance. But anything is possible with God.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply brother.

Harold

You should seriously consider softening your heart towards the Lord. So that even if we disagree on doctrine, we remain in the Lord. Recover the sense of life and peace within you, if you have lost it. It only takes an honest contemplation, confession and simple prayer for restoration. It's most important to get closer to the Lord. Then you can question the manuscripts and see what the Lord tells you, see if the Lord agrees with you or not. We can bring it before the Lord first, and then share it on the forum.

Psalm 23:4
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You should seriously consider softening your heart towards the Lord. So that even if we disagree on doctrine, we remain in the Lord. Recover the sense of life and peace within you, if you have lost it. It only takes an honest contemplation, confession and simple prayer for restoration. It's most important to get closer to the Lord. Then you can question the manuscripts and see what the Lord tells you, see if the Lord agrees with you or not. We can bring it before the Lord first, and then share it on the forum.

Psalm 23:4
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Thanks bro Evangelical. You're a good brother. I appreciate your concern.

But today I feel closer to God than I ever did when in the LC. I live alone. God's my buddy. I'm closer to Him than anyone on this side of heaven.

And as far as I'm concerned He's taken better care of me than I deserve ... which I'm sure, based on your tone, you agree with.