Evangelicalism

[awareness]

With over 33,000 sects of Christianity, are evangelical's the only true Christians today?

I grew up an evangelical. Then I joined a evangelical cult following Nee and Lee.

I left the Southern Baptist brand of evangelicalism. Then I left Lee's brand of evangelicalism. So I gave up on evangelicalism altogether. I now don't consider myself an evangelical (which, btw, is why I don't get on well on the main LCD section - that I call the evangelical section -- in the unlikely chance anyone reads my posts, they'll quickly catch that).

However, evangelicalism, numbering over six hundred million worldwide, is a very large group to disassociate from. Which means that I can hardly avoid them. For example, how many on LCD identify as evangelical?

So my question is, have I disassociate myself from the one and only true Christian group on the earth today?

[Boxjobox]

It seems to me that evangelicalism has become, for the most part, a Christian entertainment business. Hired pastor, or pastor that starts their own business, music ministry, staging, feel good, feel god, please the crowds, good snacks and build up your audience. Evangelical Christian music and videos a big business, books on self help and what God will do for you, even now gather around the campfire stories based in the gospel.
I thought when I arrived at the LC in the mid 70’s that I found the real deal, only to see it turn into a business.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

It seems to me that evangelicalism has become, for the most part, a Christian entertainment business. Hired pastor, or pastor that starts their own business, music ministry, staging, feel good, feel god, please the crowds, good snacks and build up your audience. Evangelical Christian music and videos a big business, books on self help and what God will do for you, even now gather around the campfire stories based in the gospel.
I thought when I arrived at the LC in the mid 70’s that I found the real deal, only to see it turn into a business.

A few years back I wanted to find an Indian mound in Land Between the Lakes here in Kentucky. The Forest Service won't tell where they are at.

So in my little Nissan Sentra I started driving the dirt roads in LBL, thinking to find one. But my little car couldn't navigate very far, so I gave up.

On my way out I ran into a couple of guys in a Hummer. I told them where I was trying to get, and they said hop in. Nothing could stop that Hummer, except a big tree blocking the road. Well the driver got a chainsaw from the roof, cut the tree up so it would lay flat on the ground and drove over it.

Eventually we made it to where a mound was suppose to be, but could find it. The driver said we needed to come back in the winter, when the foliage lost all its green.

Then the driver got out of the Hummer, and opened his arms and said, "now this is God's country." I said, what about the churches? He said, God isn't in them. They're just businesses. I conceded that he was right, and opened my arms to God.

The driver didn't claim to be any kind of Christian, but he loved God in nature. Me too. Evangelicalism be damned.

[awareness]

Was Jesus an evangelical?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Was Jesus an evangelical?

What is an "evangelical?"

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What is an "evangelical?"

As I stated, over 600,000,000 of them, including you.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Evangelicalism be damned.

Originally Posted by awareness

As I stated, over 600,000,000 of them, including you.

Definition?

You have disparaged evangelicals for years. I need your definition of an evangelical. What makes them so evil?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Definition?

You have disparaged evangelicals for years. I need your definition of an evangelical. What makes them so evil?

They aren't any more evil than Lee's LC, or the Baptists, or Protestants. I'm just not one of them. Just like I'm not a LCer, or Baptist.

But Untohim, and you, are one of them. And Untohim expects that the main LCD hold to evangelical dogma ... or down to AltVs you go ... like brother BJB.

And y'all aren't evil for holding to evangelicalism ... and neither, also, are the RCCers evil. Even tho evangelicals claim the RCC is the whore of Babylon.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

They aren't any more evil than Lee's LC, or the Baptists, or Protestants. I'm just not one of them. Just like I'm not a LCer, or Baptist.

But Untohim, and you, are one of them. And Untohim expects that the main LCD hold to evangelical dogma ... or down to AltVs you go ... like brother BJB.

And y'all aren't evil for holding to evangelicalism ... and neither, also, are the RCCers evil. Even tho evangelicals claim the RCC is the whore of Babylon.

So ... I'm "one of them." What are "they?" What is an "evangelical?" Who are these terrible people you regularly disparage? Is there anything good you can say about them? Have you ever met a "good" evangelical?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

So ... I'm "one of them." What are "they?" What is an "evangelical?" Who are these terrible people you regularly disparage? Is there anything good you can say about them? Have you ever met a "good" evangelical?

They make up my extended family here in Kentucky. And they are all good. Just like you and Untohim. Y'all are good. But y'all disparage me, and now BJB, for not holding to evangelical dogma.

My family knows I'm not an evangelical, yet they don't disparage me. I'm just weird Harold to them, and have been since I was little. My mom disapproved of me even when I was in the LC. To her I was suppose to be a Southern Baptist.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

So ... I'm "one of them." What are "they?" What is an "evangelical?"

Lee's local church is evangelical. Seems to me, what I see is, that many out here left the church, but the church didn't leave them.

Sure, out here on LCD, Lee's teachings are nitpicked, but the bulk of Lee's teachings are still held to.

Untohim clearly thinks that those that leave the LC should become evangelical's, or should retain the evangelicalism that makes up the LC, or in essence be a Southern Baptist, or something like it, and not move on from it. He thinks they should be free local churcher's, just walking free, but basically still be a local churcher, minus following Lee.

And that's you bro Ohio, and many out here. In essence, LCD is evangelical. But not me. I left the evangelical Southern Baptist church, and left the evangelical local church, and also left evangelicalism. That means I don't fit into the main LCD forum, and that's the reason Untohim created AltVs, and made me moderator ... which I would still be if I hadn't left both sections of LCD long enough for Untohim to think that I was gone for good.

Even BoxjoBox is still and evangelical, sorry to say, except he broke the cardinal rule of evangelical's by speaking out against Jesus being God, and the trinity. He's basically speaking out against the RCC, which evangelical's still cling to, minus the Pope.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Lee's local church is evangelical. Seems to me, what I see is, that many out here left the church, but the church didn't leave them.

Sure, out here on LCD, Lee's teachings are nitpicked, but the bulk of Lee's teachings are still held to.

Untohim clearly thinks that those that leave the LC should become evangelical's, or should retain the evangelicalism that makes up the LC, or in essence be a Southern Baptist, or something like it, and not move on from it. He thinks they should be free local churcher's, just walking free, but basically still be a local churcher, minus following Lee.

And that's you bro Ohio, and many out here. In essence, LCD is evangelical. But not me. I left the evangelical Southern Baptist church, and left the evangelical local church, and also left evangelicalism. That means I don't fit into the main LCD forum, and that's the reason Untohim created AltVs, and made me moderator ... which I would still be if I hadn't left both sections of LCD long enough for Untohim to think that I was gone for good.

Even BoxjoBox is still and evangelical, sorry to say, except he broke the cardinal rule of evangelical's by speaking out against Jesus being God, and the trinity. He's basically speaking out against the RCC, which evangelical's still cling to, minus the Pope.

You and BJB continue the old worn line that UntoHim and I are still WL LC'ers in heart. That's just not true at all. I have methodically gone thru my entire belief system and discarded everything that was not in the Bible and exclusive to Lee. I have serious Biblical basis for every teaching I now espouse. I went into the LC believing that Jesus is God and the Bible is the word of God, and I left with that. So your complaints here about me and Untohim are just not grounded in facts or truth.

It's just so stupid that UntoHim would be accused of being Lee-ites. Seriously? Just ask a LC'er about that. Remember I had a family member who facetiously asked me to sign a waiver before I carried his LSM books when I helped him move.

Since UntoHim owns this forum, and happens to pay its bills, he is entitled to make a few rules. He has repeatedly stated on the main forum that there shall be no politics, no personal attacks, and no heresy. I think he is entitled to make the rules, none of which is that oppressive, since you have the freedom to discuss heretical views and politics on Alt-Views. What is so egregious about that? Quit portraying yourself as a victim here.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

They make up my extended family here in Kentucky. And they are all good. Just like you and Untohim. Y'all are good. But y'all disparage me, and now BJB, for not holding to evangelical dogma.

My family knows I'm not an evangelical, yet they don't disparage me. I'm just weird Harold to them, and have been since I was little. My mom disapproved of me even when I was in the LC. To her I was suppose to be a Southern Baptist.

Sorry about disparaging you, but all of your bad ideas are fair game, eh?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sorry about disparaging you, but all of your bad ideas are fair game, eh?

Sure. But not making ME the subject of every thread would be nice too.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Sure. But not making ME the subject of every thread would be nice too.

Only on Alt-Views.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Only on Alt-Views.

Okay, have at it.

Okay, I relent. Upon thinking about it, I'm resentful of being deceived by the SBC. And I'm resentful I was deceived by the Local Church. So by such association, I'm resentful of my evangelical associations. I guess it reminds me of my hateful mother.

I loved my mom - R.I.P. - but she sure was hateful toward anyone and everyone that wasn't SBC. She was loving toward those in her church, but even that wouldn't last. Cuz the church would get into a fight, over some doctrinal differences, then split down the middle, and folks she purported to love, suddenly she became condemnatory toward.

To be honest, even as a kid, that didn't seem to have the same shine as : "Jesus loves the little children, all the children of the world." My mom was a stanch Southern Baptist, and self professed proud fundamentalist, if you can picture that?

But she didn't make it very becoming and attractive, with her hatefulness. So professing to be an evangelical doesn't impress me much. (Sorta like Jerry Falwell Jr., today ; no surprise there, to me ... I expected it ... sooner or later -- like Watchman Nee -- don't get to know your heroes, if you want to keep them).

Anyway, given that I don't need all that, the Baptist church, the local church, and evangelicalism, to relate with God, by bunching all them together I guess I do resent them.

No hard feelings. I guess I'm only dislike my mom, in that, I dislike the whole kit and caboodle. I guess to one degree or other, I've become quite the misanthrope. It's dangerous out there. It's full of animals. Including me.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Okay, have at it.

Okay, I relent. Upon thinking about it, I'm resentful of being deceived by the SBC. And I'm resentful I was deceived by the Local Church. So by such association, I'm resentful of my evangelical associations. I guess it reminds me of my hateful mother.

I loved my mom - R.I.P. - but she sure was hateful toward anyone and everyone that wasn't SBC. She was loving toward those in her church, but even that wouldn't last. Cuz the church would get into a fight, over some doctrinal differences, then split down the middle, and folks she purported to love, suddenly she became condemnatory toward.

To be honest, even as a kid, that didn't seem to have the same shine as : "Jesus loves the little children, all the children of the world." My mom was a stanch Southern Baptist, and self professed proud fundamentalist, if you can picture that?

But she didn't make it very becoming and attractive, with her hatefulness. So professing to be an evangelical doesn't impress me much. (Sorta like Jerry Falwell Jr., today ; no surprise there, to me ... I expected it ... sooner or later -- like Watchman Nee -- don't get to know your heroes, if you want to keep them).

Anyway, given that I don't need all that, the Baptist church, the local church, and evangelicalism, to relate with God, by bunching all them together I guess I do resent them.

No hard feelings. I guess I'm only dislike my mom, in that, I dislike the whole kit and caboodle. I guess to one degree or other, I've become quite the misanthrope. It's dangerous out there. It's full of animals. Including me.

Awareness, when you think of all those people in your life that have failed you, then you need to balance that with all the people in your life whom you have failed. Your pride and judgmentalism towards others needs to be balanced by the remorse and repentance of your own failures.

All human beings are victims, and all human beongs hurt others. That's the part of life you seem to have missed. Life on earth is merely a staging area for the next life. Only Jesus led the perfect and sinless life. No one else, even those who attempted to love and serve the Lord, comes close to Him. All of our lives have failures. We should focus on our own, instead of obsessing over others.

You seem most upset by those who have been closest to you. That is understandable, but it lacks perspective. When you only see the failures in others, then your eyesight is blinded, your heart is angry, your memory is biased. The better way, the healthier way, the way of love, is to find the good in each. Yes, it's a struggle, but it's far better for you and all those around you.

Find and remember the good in your folks, the good in the Southern Baptists, the good in the LC. Try to dwell on those things. God is merciful to those who show mercy to others. Instead of comparing top-down, compare bottom-up. Don't evaluate others by a standard of perfection, but put them up against the worst. I have constantly done this myself. Instead of complaining at times about my own plight, I would ask myself, "what if you were born in Siberia? Or what if I were born blind, etc." Sometimes just a simple question like that gives me fresh perspective, a more healthy point of view, an appreciation of others, some much needed empathy, and thankfulness too, so sorely lacking in this world.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Awareness, when you think of all those people in your life that have failed you, then you need to balance that with all the people in your life whom you have failed. Your pride and judgmentalism towards others needs to be balanced by the remorse and repentance of your own failures.

All human beings are victims, and all human beongs hurt others. That's the part of life you seem to have missed. Life on earth is merely a staging area for the next life. Only Jesus led the perfect and sinless life. No one else, even those who attempted to love and serve the Lord, comes close to Him. All of our lives have failures. We should focus on our own, instead of obsessing over others.

You seem most upset by those who have been closest to you. That is understandable, but it lacks perspective. When you only see the failures in others, then your eyesight is blinded, your heart is angry, your memory is biased. The better way, the healthier way, the way of love, is to find the good in each. Yes, it's a struggle, but it's far better for you and all those around you.

Find and remember the good in your folks, the good in the Southern Baptists, the good in the LC. Try to dwell on those things. God is merciful to those who show mercy to others. Instead of comparing top-down, compare bottom-up. Don't evaluate others by a standard of perfection, but put them up against the worst. I have constantly done this myself. Instead of complaining at times about my own plight, I would ask myself, "what if you were born in Siberia? Or what if I were born blind, etc." Sometimes just a simple question like that gives me fresh perspective, a more healthy point of view, an appreciation of others, some much needed empathy, and thankfulness too, so sorely lacking in this world.

True and good words. By the way, I live alone, so I'm well acquainted with my failures, both past, and present, and given my track record, prolly future.

Thanks for caring. And your are right beyond your words. Trying to find good in the SBC and the LC is hard ... pert near impossible in fact, except individually. Then I know there's good there ... except, they accept me, only as long as I keep my mouth shut, and just go along with them. Since the LC I know better than to do that. Hoodwink me once, shame on you ... you know the rest.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

True and good words. By the way, I live alone, so I'm well acquainted with my failures, both past, and present, and given my track record, prolly future.

Thanks for caring. And your are right beyond your words. Trying to find good in the SBC and the LC is hard ... pert near impossible in fact, except individually. Then I know there's good there ... except, they accept me, only as long as I keep my mouth shut, and just go along with them. Since the LC I know better than to do that. Hoodwink me once, shame on me ... you know the rest.

It really helps me to separate between the leaders and the members. I try to make this distinction in all my posts. Same with the RCC.

Remember that our own health and well being is more important than knowing others' problems. That's the downside of a forum like this. Every one of us face these same issues, dealing with the pains in our memories.

I came across this proverb once: "The memory of the righteous is blessed." It seemed to help me by dwelling on the message there.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It really helps me to separate between the leaders and the members. I try to make this distinction in all my posts. Same with the RCC.

Remember that our own health and well being is more important than knowing others' problems. That's the downside of a forum like this. Every one of us face these same issues, dealing with the pains in our memories.

I came across this proverb once: "The memory of the righteous is blessed." It seemed to help me by dwelling on the message there.

"Blessed Are the forgetful for they get the better even of their blunders." - Nietzsche

Nothing is perfect. We live in a imperfect world. I was talking to a local sister here last night, on Covid free cells. She brought up "Thy Kingdom come, on earth as in heaven." That word for heaven is cosmos. In other words, "on earth as in cosmos."

She then asked, is the cosmos out there part of God's Kingdom, in that it all seems that the cosmos out there is following God's Kingdom laws? I added, the laws of nature is then part of God's Kingdom. (It's a Gospel of Thomas - a sayings gospel - kind of thought :

Saying 3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

Saying 113. His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"

"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."

My point being : nothing is perfect, but there's Roses attached to the thorns ... and ... "behind every beautiful thing there's some kind of pain." And again : "Life is a beautiful symphony, but it hurts."
---------------------------------------
Quotes attestations upon request

[Boxjobox]

I think the evangelical thing resulted over time after the Luther rebellion from the RRC. It seems to me that Luther did not intend to separate himself from the RRC, but reform it. Kind of like, I think, Untohim really thought that there would be an honest way to discuss and reform the LC and the WL/LSM machine. But ingrained doctrines are hard to break, and Luther found out that the RC was not in a mood to consider that it had gone astray. Anyway, with the Luther rebellion came many to follow that interpreted scripture in different ways and with different emphasis. As time went on, those who had separated wholly from the RC and started their own church movements kind of had the similar views that it was scripture that mattered, not church teachings, that people were saved by faith through the gospel, not by a baptism and works, that the gospel was important. This seems to be the common thread today among the so many splinter groups, that even though they may meet across the street from each other, and would not think of each other as one body, but as their own thing rallying around whatever or whoever they felt need to rally around, they all had the same evangelical basis.
I have to admit, I have no historical background to say that what I just wrote is a correct understanding of evangelical, but it seems to me to fit the case.

[Boxjobox]

I might add that the whole baptist thing scares me- Souhern Baptist Anabaptist, 1st Baptist’s, and probably a hundred more and various outshoots from various other branches. Went to a few various baptist meetings to see what was what and was afraid I would not survive unless I nodded to what was said was gospel truth.
I have noticed quite a few places that used to be some sort of Baptists have taken on new names to kind of hide the old Baptist persona. Other denominations seem to be doing the same- take on a different colorful name because they realize the denominational name carries a history, but the doctrine remains the same. Got to bring in the people to keep the business going.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

I might add that the whole baptist thing scares me- Souhern Baptist Anabaptist, 1st Baptist’s, and probably a hundred more and various outshoots from various other branches. Went to a few various baptist meetings to see what was what and was afraid I would not survive unless I nodded to what was said was gospel truth.
I have noticed quite a few places that used to be some sort of Baptists have taken on new names to kind of hide the old Baptist persona. Other denominations seem to be doing the same- take on a different colorful name because they realize the denominational name carries a history, but the doctrine remains the same. Got to bring in the people to keep the business going.

As I grew up in the SBC eventually I spotted that they were lying.

In the SBC, every Sunday, they have an altar call. Before the call, the preacher would basically preach "all you need is Jesus." Then the call, and if someone came up, they received Jesus.

And that should have been that. But it wasn't. He or she, received all they needed, Jesus, but suddenly there was way more needed, like a donation box with envelopes in it for each and every Sunday.

It was a bait and switch. I didn't see it until when I was in my teens, that they were lying.

It turned me off. And then eventually I thought the local church would be something serious, true, and real. Fooled again.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by awareness

It was a bait and switch. I didn't see it until when I was in my teens, that they were lying.

It turned me off. And then eventually I thought the local church would be something serious, true, and real. Fooled again.

Didn’t we all expect the LC to be the cat’s pajamas? When I 1st came, the 25¢ messages were just starting to be sold. Local meetings were by local brothers own words and included some of WLs material. Pretty soon all the content seemed to be WL, as the elders bought into the system. Well, we all know the same story, the LSM business train took off and you either got on board or were left behind.
I wonder what will happen as the Lee family and the business runners of LSM all “move on” to the big LC in the sky. History seems to be that movement type religious businesses falter after the generational change. The ones that survive get very doctrinal.The RC developed a hierarchical system where moving up the ladder required strict conformity to the system.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

Didn’t we all expect the LC to be the cat’s pajamas? When I 1st came, the 25¢ messages were just starting to be sold. Local meetings were by local brothers own words and included some of WLs material. Pretty soon all the content seemed to be WL, as the elders bought into the system. Well, we all know the same story, the LSM business train took off and you either got on board or were left behind.
I wonder what will happen as the Lee family and the business runners of LSM all “move on” to the big LC in the sky. History seems to be that movement type religious businesses falter after the generational change. The ones that survive get very doctrinal.The RC developed a hierarchical system where moving up the ladder required strict conformity to the system.

Here's another evangelical 'fooled again' : Jerry Falwell Jr.

Considered, with Liberty University, a very influential evangelical leader, Jr. was looked up to by all kinds of Christians. Jr., and his wife Becki are now a big black eye to evangelicals. Even more troubling is, his punishment is letting him go with $10 million from the university.

But local-churcher's have their own Jerry Falwell Jr.. Our grand leader, and founder, Watchman Nee, it has been revealed, to have his own private life dalliances. See this thread : http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...highlight=lily

Before I knew that, and still held Nee in high regard, after leaving the LC, I gave up on even evangelicalism. Of course no one is perfect. We're all human, after all. But evangelicals sell themselves as born-again representatives of Jesus, and not as human as everyone else.

I assume, prolly to the dismay of bro Untohim, Jr. let the evangelicals down. But is he as dismayed that more than 80% of evangelicals are all in for Trump? Trump aside, all in for politics, that make evangelicalism unattractive to young people, or anyone with slightly more intelligent than God gave a goose.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

But evangelicals sell themselves as born-again representatives of Jesus, and not as human as everyone else.

I assume, prolly to the dismay of bro Untohim, Jr. let the evangelicals down. But is he as dismayed that more than 80% of evangelicals are all in for Trump? Trump aside, all in for politics, that make evangelicalism unattractive to young people, or anyone with slightly more intelligent than God gave a goose.

Yes, evangelicals are so much better than any one else. That's why we never repented and believed in Jesus in the first place. Why would anyone waste time believing in Jesus if you can still be tempted and sin some more? Heck, we're not even human anymore!

I agree, that atheism and agnosticism are so much more "attractive" to young people. Why would you even consider believing in an unseen Savior, when you can spend all of these days running together with them in the same flood of dissipation, blaspheming, rioting, and burning all of our cities. It's so much more fun! And nobody but Trump will try to stop you!

--- slightly less intelligent than a goose

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yes, evangelicals are so much better than any one else. That's why we never repented and believed in Jesus in the first place. Why would anyone waste time believing in Jesus if you can still be tempted and sin some more? Heck, we're not even human anymore!

I agree, that atheism and agnosticism are so much more "attractive" to young people. Why would you even consider believing in an unseen Savior, when you can spend all of these days running together with them in the same flood of dissipation, blaspheming, rioting, and burning all of our cities. It's so much more fun! And nobody but Trump will try to stop you!

--- slightly less intelligent than a goose

Sarcasm gets me every time.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Sarcasm gets me every time.

That post was just for you bro.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That post was just for you bro.

Well I hope so. You were, after all, responding to me. Are you saying your response wasn't for the host of other members out here?

But back to Falwell Jr.. I feel sorry for him. He couldn't help his DNA. Not from his father, but from his grandfather, Carey Falwell. It skipped a generation. Carey was a bootlegger, who dismissed organized religion, and was unsaved. Obviously, granddad's DNA, and example, was stronger than daddy's.

One of the founders of modern day evangelicalism -- the Moral Majority -- Sr. Falwell started Liberty University, with, according to Jr., the entrepreneurial spirit of his bootlegging father. I guess selling Jesus is tantamount to selling illegal booze, according to Jr..

Jr. wasn't a preacher like his daddy. He's more like his granddaddy. Apparently DNA is stronger than religion.

And that's why I feel sorry for Jr.. He couldn't help himself. But still, it's just a little too weird that he liked to watch another man shag his wife, and that Becki wanted it. Neither of them seem very Christian. I think they take the cake. Likely they're more kinky than Watchman Nee ... minus the raping.

But ............... I predict ............... that both will lay low for awhile, and then announce, when the $10 million runs out, that Jesus forgave them, and healed them of their perversions. And like Jim Bakker, will go back to scamming gullible Christians again.

Jr. can't help it. It comes down from Granddaddy.

All that makes me feel like a drink. And I don't drink. Hey, in the OT, God's not against the hard stuff. Historically, booze came way before the advent of writing, and, btw, before one jot or tittle was written in any book of the Bible ... even before Genesis -- written circa 800 BCE, 3200 years after the beginning of writing ... and only God knows how long after the beginning of the cosmos.

Reality sure can be hard to figure out. It's complex ... for all of us. Jr. included. Let's forgive him/them his/her sins ; preemptively. Just don't trust them with money. I learned that a long time ago.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

But back to Falwell Jr.. I feel sorry for him. He couldn't help his DNA. Not from his father, but from his grandfather, Carey Falwell. It skipped a generation. Carey was a bootlegger, who dismissed organized religion, and was unsaved. Obviously, granddad's DNA, and example, was stronger than daddy's.

One of the founders of modern day evangelicalism -- the Moral Majority -- Sr. Falwell started Liberty University, with, according to Jr., the entrepreneurial spirit of his bootlegging father. I guess selling Jesus is tantamount to selling illegal booze, according to Jr..

First of all, we love you brother! Just had to state that reality up front . . . (our Father is perfect, and perfect love casts out all fear)

The Falwell thing is unfortunate, to be sure. I didn't know much about him, other than he seemed to be held up as something. Reminds me of Jimmy Swaggart. Swaggart still has a TV show, but whenever I watch I get something of an unsettled feeling and sense that it's not genuine. Therefore I usually skip over pretty fast - doesn't seem to be any Living Water there.

But it's just in the DNA of our earthly father, and even regenerated ones have the same flesh - rotten to the core - it never changes! So why are we surprised when the flesh manifests in some act? Of course, the media is quick to jump on any display such as this from a Christian. But it's actually just the flesh, pointing the finger at the flesh, as the flesh is so want to do.

But in Him there is love and forgiveness. Seventy times seven. That is mercy and grace to us in the person and sacrifice of Christ. And that is how He said we would be known to the world - by our love.

OK - all that just came out, but what I really wanted to ask is the question that was asked a number of times earlier in this thread: What is the definition of an evangelical? I seriously have never considered the term much. If you asked me, I suppose all I would know to answer is that it is someone who proclaims Christ. Is this incorrect?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

What is the definition of an evangelical? I seriously have never considered the term much. If you asked me, I suppose all I would know to answer is that it is someone who proclaims Christ. Is this incorrect?

Falwell Jr. was the premium example of a Evangelical.

[Boxjobox]

I pulled this off an article about evangelicals titled

Do We Even Know What An “Evangelical Christian” Is Anymore?
August 31, 2020 by Michael Snyder

Evangelicals take the Bible seriously and believe in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. The term “evangelical” comes from the Greek word euangelion, meaning “the good news” or the “gospel.” Thus, the evangelical faith focuses on the “good news” of salvation brought to sinners by Jesus Christ.
That definition seems quite soft to me, but let’s run with it.

Evangelicals are supposed to believe that Jesus is Lord, but it appears that nearly a third of them do not really understand what that means. According to one recent survey, a whopping 30 percent of all evangelicals believe that “Jesus isn’t God”…

More than half of American adults, including 30% of evangelicals, say Jesus isn’t God but most agree He was a great teacher, according to results from the 2020 State of Theology survey.

Even though the Bible and traditional teachings of the Christian Church hold that Jesus truly existed as both man and God, among the key findings of the biennial State of Theology survey from Ligonier Ministries conducted with LifeWay Research, is that 52% of American adults believe that Jesus was a great teacher and nothing more.
***************
I thought I was a church of one- but it appears there may be more of some similar beliefs- although I Believe Jesus is the Christ, who was raised from the dead and sits at the right hand of God, it seems some have reduced Jesus to just being a great teacher. But 30% of evangelicals believe Jesus isn’t God? Of course, articles like this can pull statistics from anywhere, so I wouldn’t hold to think it accurate, but, it would appear I’m not alone.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Falwell Jr. was the premium example of a Evangelical.

Because of his faith in Jesus Christ or because of his immorality?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Because of his faith in Jesus Christ or because of his immorality?

I can't tell. Is there an aspersion in that question?

Anyway, as it turns out, any faith in Jesus was phony. But it did fool a lot of evangelicals.

By Jerry Jr.'s example, one would wonder if immorality characterizes evangelicals ... one would further wonder -- that since Jerry Jr. was a leading evangelical, that lifted the orange buffoon over the hump in 2016, supporting a man who had violated almost every principle of the Christian faith: he was married three times; accused of multiple extramarital affairs; repeatedly defrauded investors, contractors, and students; habitually lied; and practiced thinly disguised sexism and racism ... a real King David, over 80% of evangelicals say ... minus the heart for God -- if evangelicals are peddlers of religious snake oil.

Bro Ohio, I think you were the first to ask, "what is a evangelical?" But I admit, I can't figure just what an evangelical is. Cuz they have changed. They're certainly not what was formed in the First Great Awakening, circa early half of the 18th c.. They would be shamed by what evangelical's have become today ... even without Jerry Jr.'s indiscretion.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I can't tell. Is there an aspersion in that question?

Anyway, as it turns out, any faith in Jesus was phony. But it did fool a lot of evangelicals.

By Jerry Jr.'s example, one would wonder if immorality characterizes evangelicals ... one would further wonder -- that since Jerry Jr. was a leading evangelical, that lifted the orange buffoon over the hump in 2016, supporting a man who had violated almost every principle of the Christian faith: he was married three times; accused of multiple extramarital affairs; repeatedly defrauded investors, contractors, and students; habitually lied; and practiced thinly disguised sexism and racism ... a real King David, over 80% of evangelicals say ... minus the heart for God -- if evangelicals are peddlers of religious snake oil.

Bro Ohio, I think you were the first to ask, "what is a evangelical?" But I admit, I can't figure just what an evangelical is. Cuz they have changed. They're certainly not what was formed in the First Great Awakening, circa early half of the 18th c.. They would be shamed by what evangelical's have become today ... even without Jerry Jr.'s indiscretion.

It's so comforting that awareness can know the heart of every man, and he alone can properly judge each man. With him there is no redemption for others.

Someone once said, "With what judgment you judge, you also will be judged."

I don't excuse anyone's sins, but neither do I condemn them completely for past failures.

Your excessive hatred of Trump is concerning though.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It's so comforting that awareness can know the heart of every man, and he alone can properly judge each man. With him there is no redemption for others.

Too soon bro Ohio. Jerry and Becki need to lay low for awhile, before claiming Jesus forgave them and healed them of their perversions.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Your excessive hatred of Trump is concerning though.

I hate being lied too.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I hate being lied too.

When did I lie to you?


Isn't it also a lie to characterize all evangelicals based on Falwell? I know next to nothing about the guy, his father, or his grandfather, yet you seem to know everything about those you hate. I sure hope you are perfect because you have nothing good to say about any evangelicals, conservatives, republicans, or Christians.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When did I lie to you?

I wasn't talking about you.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Isn't it also a lie to characterize all evangelicals based on Falwell? I know next to nothing about the guy, his father, or his grandfather, yet you seem to know everything about those you hate. I sure hope you are perfect because you have nothing good to say about any evangelicals, conservatives, republicans, or Christians.

Here's something good : They're saved.

[awareness]

I started this thread because evangelical orthodoxy seems to be the standard guiding censorship on LCD, in both chambers, upper and lower, with more tolerance afforded toward the lower chamber, AltV's.

Plus, I grew up attending a evangelical church, and spent a decade in an evangelical cult.

What I don't get is how the evangelical orthodoxy developed. It's not that old. From what I read on Wiki it started with the First Great Awakening, in the early 18th c. Did it start out with a list of evangelical creeds?

I don't think so. The evangelical Southern Baptist church didn't start until the question of slavery came to a head, in the mid 19th c. They did come out of the Baptist church system, that came out against slavery (SBC formed in favor of slavery). Did the Baptist have a creed? Did high priests of the Baptist's decide it? Or did they have a council?

However it was established our good brother Untohim seems to have found it, and presently, it so appears, stands upon it, as a guide of what to censor on LCD.

That's why I want to know if evangelicalism is the one and only true Christianity today.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by awareness

I started this thread because evangelical orthodoxy seems to be the standard guiding censorship on LCD, in both chambers, upper and lower, with more tolerance afforded toward the lower chamber, AltV's.

Plus, I grew up attending a evangelical church, and spent a decade in an evangelical cult.

What I don't get is how the evangelical orthodoxy developed. It's not that old. From what I read on Wiki it started with the First Great Awakening, in the early 18th c. Did it start out with a list of evangelical creeds?

I don't think so. The evangelical Southern Baptist church didn't start until the question of slavery came to a head, in the mid 19th c. They did come out of the Baptist church system, that came out against slavery (SBC formed in favor of slavery). Did the Baptist have a creed? Did high priests of the Baptist's decide it? Or did they have a council?

However it was established our good brother Untohim seems to have found it, and presently, it so appears, stands upon it, as a guide of what to censor on LCD.

That's why I want to know if evangelicalism is the one and only true Christianity today.

I view evangelical in this way, although it is a rotten example: down in Mexico you have drug lords ( funny how the lord thinG pops up- we in the US don’t use the term often as do the British who are keen on the Lord thing) who fight and contend for preeminence in their business, although they all sell a common product. Each drug lord may have their own business plan and execution, yet moving drugs is the commonality among them.
As the reformation got underway and certain men gained following and groups developed or folded or split or merged ( although I don’t think there was a lot of merging because no one in power like to give up position) and in order to keep some semblance of the call for unity, they all had similar beliefs which were labeled evangelical. It is a term that soothes the conscience from worrying about division.
Untohim, after going through the LC “ divisions are wrong and we meet as the true church” indoctrination, probably still looks for that sense of oneness and safety that says “ we are all doing the Lords work” and then continue to keep their serfdoms. The dwellers in each serfdom can then feel comfortable knowing that they are “doing the Lord’s work” and not feel that they are breaking any kind of spiritual call for oneness. The church in the city gets morphed into the evangelicals in the city- country- world.
It’s a Uno Mundo concept.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

I view evangelical in this way, although it is a rotten example: down in Mexico you have drug lords ( funny how the lord thinG pops up- we in the US don’t use the term often as do the British who are keen on the Lord thing) who fight and contend for preeminence in their business, although they all sell a common product. Each drug lord may have their own business plan and execution, yet moving drugs is the commonality among them.
As the reformation got underway and certain men gained following and groups developed or folded or split or merged ( although I don’t think there was a lot of merging because no one in power like to give up position) and in order to keep some semblance of the call for unity, they all had similar beliefs which were labeled evangelical. It is a term that soothes the conscience from worrying about division.
Untohim, after going through the LC “ divisions are wrong and we meet as the true church” indoctrination, probably still looks for that sense of oneness and safety that says “ we are all doing the Lords work” and then continue to keep their serfdoms. The dwellers in each serfdom can then feel comfortable knowing that they are “doing the Lord’s work” and not feel that they are breaking any kind of spiritual call for oneness. The church in the city gets morphed into the evangelicals in the city- country- world.
It’s a Uno Mundo concept.

According to him, I was his one and only soulmate in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida. He was the preacher at First Christian Church, Disciples of Christ.

I'd drop in to the church from time to time, and we'd go up into his study to share in discussions, about all kinds of things ... related to Bible, and such the like.

I once ask him why preachers don't preach on John 17, concerning the oneness. His answer was honest. He said, because we don't have it. And according to John, the oneness was so the world would know him, and his Father who sent him.

So the question of if evangelicalism is the one and only true expression of Christianity today, would sadly mean, that evangelicalism fails on the John 17 oneness account.

[awareness]

It would be wrong to lay the failure of John 17 oneness at the feet of the evangelicals.

After blasting its away out from under RCC dominance, those replacing the authority of the papacy with the authority of sola scriptura, broke out into the reformation, and have been splitting into different sects ever since ; so far over 33,000.

So the failure of John 17 oneness is not the fault of evangelicalism, a movement that came along a couple of hundred years later.

So chalk one up for Evangelicalism. They're not to blame for that.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by awareness

It would be wrong to lay the failure of John 17 oneness at the feet of the evangelicals.

After blasting its away out from under RCC dominance, those replacing the authority of the papacy with the authority of sola scriptura, broke out into the reformation, and have been splitting into different sects ever since ; so far over 33,000.

So the failure of John 17 oneness is not the fault of evangelicalism, a movement that came along a couple of hundred years later.

So chalk one up for Evangelicalism. They're not to blame for that.

What you say points to the foolishness of Untohim to not allow a broader discussion On the main site. How do you have an open, healthy discussion about Née/Lee/LC without looking at all angles? I mean, Lee called it the recovery of the church-don’t we need to have a general discussion about what was the original foundation of the church, what went wrong, what Was produced, what needed to be recovered? A discussion of the church would HAVE TO include the RCC, and the legitimacy of the Nicene creed, and the reformation, and evangelicalism, and the modern practices and compare that to the foundation Paul laid down. And one couldn’t help but compare WL new way door knocking to Mormon practices. Untohim, in narrowing his scope of discussion, blocks healthy needed topics that are quite appropriate to understanding WL/LSM and the recovery. Everyone does not need to agree, and toes would be stepped on, but the discussion would be quite educational on theological, philosophical, historical, social and personal levels. Yes, there are other websites that may discuss various topics, but not tied into the whole LC/ Recovery thing.

I don’t know that I would use the term blame in respect to evangelicalism, but I would say they are today a large part of the problem in that if you are going to hold to scripture, don’t leave out something as big as the oneness that the world should see. What the world sees today is not the church that got its act together after “reformation” but division.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

What you say points to the foolishness of Untohim to not allow a broader discussion On the main site.

I'm all over the place with this. Of course I'm with you. If we're talking strictly Local Church Discussions, then all topics and subjects related to both in the LC, and out, should be on the table. And I'm for liberal tolerance, for whatever is called into question.

But I/We don't own the site. Untohim does. And to be honest, he can do as he damn well pleases. It's his. I've been told numerous times to go start my own ... or go to one or more of the many other forums on the web. The web is not an expression of the John 17 oneness, unless based on connecting to it ... and neither is LCD.

It won't be the first time a Title (LCD) is/was betrayed by what's actually behind the title. Typically that's called a bait and switch.

And that's how I feel. But I'm bonded with exLCers. That's why I'm here. My trouble is that I've come a long way in my thinking since leaving the LC, and it doesn't get on very well with others that haven't.

Originally Posted by BJB

I don’t know that I would use the term blame in respect to evangelicalism, but I would say they are today a large part of the problem in that if you are going to hold to scripture, don’t leave out something as big as the oneness that the world should see. What the world sees today is not the church that got its act together after “reformation” but division.

Oneness has been lost to the Spirit. And John 17 pulls no punches concerning its importance. We just aren't able to do it. So we ignore it.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by awareness

I'm all over the place with this. Of course I'm with you. If we're talking strictly Local Church Discussions, then all topics and subjects related to both in the LC, and out, should be on the table. And I'm for liberal tolerance, for whatever is called into question.

But I/We don't own the site. Untohim does. And to be honest, he can do as he damn well pleases. It's his. I've been told numerous times to go start my own ... or go to one or more of the many other forums on the web. The web is not an expression of the John 17 oneness, unless based on connecting to it ... and neither is LCD.

It won't be the first time a Title (LCD) is/was betrayed by what's actually behind the title. Typically that's called a bait and switch.

And that's how I feel. But I'm bonded with exLCers. That's why I'm here. My trouble is that I've come a long way in my thinking since leaving the LC, and it doesn't get on very well with others that haven't.



Oneness has been lost to the Spirit. And John 17 pulls no punches concerning its importance. We just aren't able to do it. So we ignore it.

True, it’s Untohim’s baby, but with what he, and we, have been through, and for his stated purpose of the site, it surprises me that Untohim does not want that baby to mature into a rational individual who is able to discuss, defend, offend, examine, accept, reject, rethink, re-examine, evaluate, all the aspects of WN, WL, LSM, LRC and compare and contrast with Christianity, history, scripture, thoughts. I think one would want the baby to be able to stand and walk on its own two feet. WL/ LSM had some wacky coercive teachings and practices and methods. Really, we need all views to be expressed concerning the matters- that would be the real help.

[Boxjobox]

I pulled this off the net- about the featured author Untohim posts in the liner notes- James R. White is the author of several acclaimed books, including The King James Only Controversy and The Forgetten Trinity. He is an elder of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church, director of Alpha and Omega Ministries—a Christian apologetics organization, an adjunct professor with Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary, and a professor ...
Now here is a genuine Evangelical! And look Awareness, the Baps have reformed!

Untohim must be getting concerned, what with all the trinitarian stuff that he wants everyone to be clear!
Another quote: James White writes, in the first chapter of The Forgotten Trinity, that "Most Christians do not understand what the term [The Trinity] means and have only a vague idea of the reality it represents", and it's true. I've been attending church all my life, and though I've sat through numerous sermons on God and the Father and Jesus Christ, it's ..
**********
Like trinity is the main building block of Christian faith an no one understands it, therefore most Christians are totally lacking in their relation to God, because they don’t understand trinity. This is Evangelicalism- sell the books after you convince people they don’t understand God, but the book will fill you in and make you a fulfilled Christian, even though you don’t read about trinity in the scripture, because the apostles and Holy Spirit didn’t quite give you the full scoop, but buy the book and you will be enlightened and your wildest dreams will come true.
Evangelicalism message is based on trinitarianism. Anyone who does not follow their message is in poor poor shape and heretical. Where have we seen this played out?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

I pulled this off the net- about the featured author Untohim posts in the liner notes- James R. White is the author of several acclaimed books, including The King James Only Controversy and The Forgetten Trinity. He is an elder of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church, director of Alpha and Omega Ministries—a Christian apologetics organization, an adjunct professor with Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary, and a professor ...
Now here is a genuine Evangelical! And look Awareness, the Baps have reformed!

Untohim must be getting concerned, what with all the trinitarian stuff that he wants everyone to be clear!
Another quote: James White writes, in the first chapter of The Forgotten Trinity, that "Most Christians do not understand what the term [The Trinity] means and have only a vague idea of the reality it represents", and it's true. I've been attending church all my life, and though I've sat through numerous sermons on God and the Father and Jesus Christ, it's ..
**********
Like trinity is the main building block of Christian faith an no one understands it, therefore most Christians are totally lacking in their relation to God, because they don’t understand trinity. This is Evangelicalism- sell the books after you convince people they don’t understand God, but the book will fill you in and make you a fulfilled Christian, even though you don’t read about trinity in the scripture, because the apostles and Holy Spirit didn’t quite give you the full scoop, but buy the book and you will be enlightened and your wildest dreams will come true.
Evangelicalism message is based on trinitarianism. Anyone who does not follow their message is in poor poor shape and heretical. Where have we seen this played out?

Here's the dealeo : We grow up believing in Santa, the tooth fairy, the Easter bunny, etc.. We love fantasy. So when we grow up we still need fantasies, tho more complex.

So way way back, some 1800 years ago, Tertullian invented the fantasy of the trinity, and the tagalong three Gods in one, including God the Son.

But there's nothing that can be done about so many believing the fantasy. The fantasy has so much mass and momentum it can't be stopped ... (like Untohim).

You say the Bap's have reformed. Reformed in what way? Have they dropped the 3 gods thingy, and the Jesus is God thingy? I'd like to know. Prolly, if he's even around, Untohim would be or perhaps should be hankering to know. Cuz he'd be looking for information to censor. Unfortunately he hasn't reformed. Don't mess with his Santa Claus, 3 gods, and God the Son fantasy.

[awareness]

Look. I think it's a matter of maturity. I've spent much of my life caught up in this stuff. Eventually it even came to a crescendo : Jesus became The Everlasting Father (the highest peak Christology ever, that took 2000 years to realize), and the trinity became supercharged ; the processed triune God.

This is just child's play ; a bunch of bored Christians making something out of nothing ; turning Jesus and God into idols ; Jesus just being a walking talking idol in the flesh.

And none of it is even necessary ; just milk drinking Christians, playing in an imaginary sandbox ... too childish even, to realize the damage being done to Jesus and God the Father. ; turning them into empty idols, made up of figments of their imaginations.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by awareness

You say the Bap's have reformed. Reformed in what way? Have they dropped the 3 gods thingy, and the Jesus is God thingy? I'd like to know. Prolly, if he's even around, Untohim would be or perhaps should be hankering to know. Cuz he'd be looking for information to censor. Unfortunately he hasn't reformed. Don't mess with his Santa Claus, 3 gods, and God the Son fantasy.

That’s what I’m wondering- Untohim posts this author James R White for his The Forgotten Trinity book, that will bring a body into heighten understanding of God, who is a trinity. And he is part of the reformed baptist church in Phoenix. So, let’s say dear old Paul, you know, the Paul who said he was an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, walks into the Reformed Bap meeting in Phoenix and says in a fatherly way “ to you oh reformed baps, there is but one God, the Father.” Now that would really try their reformation! So you would have Paul on one side of the room and James R White in the pulpit saying “Heresy, Heresy, treason, treason!”
The three headed god would prevail, because it has a longer history than Paul’s. Reform, recovery, evangelical- all seem to eat from the same trough of triunism, the three headed god.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

That’s what I’m wondering- Untohim posts this author James R White for his The Forgotten Trinity book, that will bring a body into heighten understanding of God, who is a trinity. And he is part of the reformed baptist church in Phoenix. So, let’s say dear old Paul, you know, the Paul who said he was an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, walks into the Reformed Bap meeting in Phoenix and says in a fatherly way “ to you oh reformed baps, there is but one God, the Father.” Now that would really try their reformation! So you would have Paul on one side of the room and James R White in the pulpit saying “Heresy, Heresy, treason, treason!”
The three headed god would prevail, because it has a longer history than Paul’s. Reform, recovery, evangelical- all seem to eat from the same trough of triunism, the three headed god.

Christianity’s Three-Headed Beast

https://new.exchristian.net/2013/08/...ded-beast.html

[Ohio]

It's starting to look like a good time to put an expiration date on Alt- Views.

What do you think UntoHim. Have you taken enough abuse yet?

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It's starting to look like a good time to put an expiration date on Alt- Views.

What do you think UntoHim. Have you taken enough abuse yet?

Ok, Ohio, I’ll stick to the Nee, Lee, LC, LRC, LSM venue: our dear brother, the apostle Paul, you know, the one who said he was an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, walks into a meeting of the church in ABC during a “prophesy” meeting, stands up and says “To you, oh church in ABC, there is but one God, the Father”. I could see one of two things happening; if all thought he was a newbie, everyone would give a loud Amen for his participation, followed by a few standing up and setting the record straight with a number of WL teachings, and afterward he would be offered LSM literature to lead him down the path of enlightenment. If they thought he was a seasoned member of the body, all the heads would go down and you would hear a low drone of Oh Lord Jesus, he would be labeled as a dissenter and spreader of false teaching and shown the door (kind of like what you do, Ohio).

[Boxjobox]

Numbers 31. 3So Moses spoke to the people, saying, “Arm yourselves for war, and let them go against the Midianites to take vengeance for the Lord on Midian.

8They killed the kings of Midian with the rest of those who were killed—Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba, the five kings of Midian.

Balaam the son of Beor they also killed with the sword.

Revelation 2 14But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality.

Rev 2. 20Nevertheless I have afew things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

2 Kings 9 “Thus says the Lord God of Israel: ‘7You shall strike down the house of Ahab your master, that I may avenge the blood of My servants the prophets, and the blood of all the servants of the Lord, at the hand of Jezebel. 8For the whole house of Ahab shall perish; and I will cut off from Ahab all the males in Israel, both bond and free. 9So I will make the house of Ahab like the house of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, and like the house of Baasha the son of Ahijah. 10The dogs shall eat Jezebel on the plot of ground at Jezreel, and there shall be none to bury her.’ ”

Really, it’s time to end this three headed god stumbling block. If there is an interest in the Church being “recovered”, then there should be an interest in identifying the disease.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by awareness

Christianity’s Three-Headed Beast

https://new.exchristian.net/2013/08/...ded-beast.html

I would disagree with this author’s premise of Paul laying the groundwork for trinity. Paul, in the midst of the Roman/Greek culture of Corinth explicitly pointed out that there were many gods and many lords, but to the believers, there was but one God, the Father. That would be in contradistinction to any three headed deity.

That the existing culture had myths of trinity gods and the thought would not then be hard to explain, further strengthens my argument that it would not have been hard to introduce a trinity had that been the truth, but Paul insists that there is but one God, the Father. There is no trinity god introduced to the foundational church in the scripture. If God we’re a trinity, there would be much explanation needed to instruct the Jews of this major change in theology- and much resistance to it as well, but we see no such speaking in the NT. If the gospel were that God is triune and Jesus is God- where was this preached and taught?

The author is right that the three headed thing is in mythology, but it was not introduced by Jesus nor the apostles and writers of the NT. It evolved from false teaching, and still seems to be evolving today.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

I would disagree with this author’s premise of Paul laying the groundwork for trinity. Paul, in the midst of the Roman/Greek culture of Corinth explicitly pointed out that there were many gods and many lords, but to the believers, there was but one God, the Father. That would be in contradistinction to any three headed deity.

But BJB, a trinity of gods has been around much longer than Christianity, and even go back longer than the Bible, both OT and NT.

Sumer 6th and 5th c. BCE, had the gods Anu, Enlil, and Ea, that formed the triad of the Great Gods.

The ancient Babylonians recognized the doctrine of a trinity, or three persons in one god—as appears from a composite god with three heads forming part of their mythology.

Egypt decreed, no god came into being before Amun, and that 'All gods are three: Amun, Re and Ptah, that form Amon ; a statement of trinity, the three chief gods of Egypt subsumed into one of them, Amon.

India today has Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva, going back to at least 3000 BCE, three divinities that form one entity.

Greece doesn't go back that far but Aristotle in the 4th c. BCE wrote: 'All things are three, and thrice is all: and let us use this number in the worship of the gods.

Humans seem hard wired for 3 divinities in one god. Carl Jung considered the arrangement of deities into triplets an archetype in the history of religion.

Is it any wonder, then, that Christianity formed a trinity? They had to be as great as religions of all other civilizations. Moreover, it seems to be imprinted in the collective human psyche.

In fact, the Roman Empire, during the development of Christianity, had three gods. Check out The Capitoline Triad as evidence of the Roman belief in the Trinity before Christianity :https://www.islamforchristians.com/t...-christianity/

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by awareness

But BJB, a trinity of gods has been around much longer than Christianity, and even go back longer than the Bible, both OT and NT.

Sumer 6th and 5th c. BCE, had the gods Anu, Enlil, and Ea, that formed the triad of the Great Gods.

The ancient Babylonians recognized the doctrine of a trinity, or three persons in one god—as appears from a composite god with three heads forming part of their mythology.

Egypt decreed, no god came into being before Amun, and that 'All gods are three: Amun, Re and Ptah, that form Amon ; a statement of trinity, the three chief gods of Egypt subsumed into one of them, Amon.

India today has Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva, going back to at least 3000 BCE, three divinities that form one entity.

Greece doesn't go back that far but Aristotle in the 4th c. BCE wrote: 'All things are three, and thrice is all: and let us use this number in the worship of the gods.

Humans seem hard wired for 3 divinities in one god. Carl Jung considered the arrangement of deities into triplets an archetype in the history of religion.

Is it any wonder, then, that Christianity formed a trinity? They had to be as great as religions of all other civilizations. Moreover, it seems to be imprinted in the collective human psyche.

In fact, the Roman Empire, during the development of Christianity, had three gods. Check out The Capitoline Triad as evidence of the Roman belief in the Trinity before Christianity :https://www.islamforchristians.com/t...-christianity/

This is precisely why Paul’s teaching to the Corinthians that there is but one God, the Father is paramount. Moses did not teach a trinity god, Jesus did not teach a trinity god, and Paul did not teach a trinity god. But the culture prevailed and by the 4th century a document was produced that satisfied Constantine and the fish hat church hierarchy and that became the basis for the Church/State religion. That document and the further evolutions of it have produced the Christian religion we see practiced and taught today.

When I look at the main page entries, it’s obvious Untohim has left the idea of recovery of the church and opted for evangelicalism as the great saving church. The recovery of the church would have to include as number one priority a recovery to professing that there is but one God, the Father- not a three headed god. WLee only brought the “recovery” back to the 4th century in building up his LSM business. With him, it was interesting how he would go between a three headed god with one body to a three body god with one head, and then mix and match with scripture.

Evangelicals seem to reject Paul’s and Jesus’ statements concerning one God, the Father, and seem quite comfortable doing so. They view it as a silly heresy. While claiming the supremacy of scripture, they stick to the very 4th century document that produced the very things that they claim to hate. They must maintain and proclaim Jesus as God, whether it is by having a 3 headed God with one body or a 3 body god with one head- Paul’s clear teaching is absolutely rejected. Untohim falls into that category- no recovery to Jesus’ and Paul’s teaching needed- orthodoxy is the supreme teaching. Thus, it’s leave the local church and attend a good evangelical group.

Even the Roman Catholic Church in its liturgy cares more for God the Father and keeps the thought of Jesus as being the son of God than what is portrayed in the evangelical world. It’s been a while since I attended a RC mass, but my recollection is that they do not pray to Jesus in their liturgy, but to God, the Father.

[UntoHim]

Boxjobox and all my Alt-View friends.

Please stop making me one of the subjects of this thread. The subject is Evangelicalism. Maybe you haven't caught on yet, but I don't respond to taunting and insults...and you probably wouldn't want to get me riled up enough to respond anyway.

awareness started the thread with a legitimate question:

With over 33,000 sects of Christianity, are evangelical's the only true Christians today?

Of course this term "evangelicalism" can mean many different things to many different people. And to be sure, no matter what the definition, just because someone calls themselves "an evangelical" doesn't make them evangelical as described in the New Testament, anymore than someone calling themselves "a Christian" makes them a Christian as described in the New Testament.

Carry on fellows. Leave me out of it for now. Thanks.
-

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Carry on fellows. Leave me out of it for now. Thanks.
-

But we love you. And ... you started it, by censoring posts you consider outside your belief system ... that looks like evangelical.

And if not then please define your parameters for censorship. That would help a lot, and might even answer my OP question.

Can we carry on with you involved?

[UntoHim]

Censored? I think you mean moved. As the Admin/Moderator I have the prerogative to move any post that is off topic/not appropriate to another thread or sub-forum. The same thing happens millions of times a day on innumerable Internet forums.

My parameters for moving or deleting a post are the same as they have been for the 15+ years I've been moderating. I've discussed these at length many times over the years. I'm not going to take the time to go over them yet again.

I say again. Carry on, but keep me out of this discussion for now. Thanks.
-

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Witness Lee
"To know God is not adequate. To know Christ is also not adequate."

The Lord Jesus Christ
And this is eternal life, that they know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
John 17:3

I don't know about y'all, but I think I'm going to go with the words of the Lord Jesus Christ and maybe just ignore Witness Lee.
-

Untohim- we are in agreement in this post that came from the main site! This is a marvelous thing that you would quote Jesus telling us that eternal life is based on knowing our Father as the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom God, our Father sent. Do you see the practicality of Paul’s admonition in Ephesians that we would profess One God the Father? When you introduce a different god called the trinity, you leave the reservation. Perhaps you would want to re-examine your sending people to the alt-site based on their scriptural beliefs and posts, unless, of course, you are banning yourself! Your song of the day- One True God- perhaps you would also want to put in your liner section Paul’s word to the Corinthians that to us there is but One God, The Father.
Evangelical name is related to the gospel. Paul’s gospel did not include a trinity god, and neither should you!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

I pulled this off an article about evangelicals titled

Do We Even Know What An “Evangelical Christian” Is Anymore?
August 31, 2020 by Michael Snyder

Evangelicals take the Bible seriously and believe in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. The term “evangelical” comes from the Greek word euangelion, meaning “the good news” or the “gospel.” Thus, the evangelical faith focuses on the “good news” of salvation brought to sinners by Jesus Christ.
That definition seems quite soft to me, but let’s run with it.

Evangelicals are supposed to believe that Jesus is Lord, but it appears that nearly a third of them do not really understand what that means. According to one recent survey, a whopping 30 percent of all evangelicals believe that “Jesus isn’t God”…

More than half of American adults, including 30% of evangelicals, say Jesus isn’t God but most agree He was a great teacher, according to results from the 2020 State of Theology survey.

Even though the Bible and traditional teachings of the Christian Church hold that Jesus truly existed as both man and God, among the key findings of the biennial State of Theology survey from Ligonier Ministries conducted with LifeWay Research, is that 52% of American adults believe that Jesus was a great teacher and nothing more.
***************
I thought I was a church of one- but it appears there may be more of some similar beliefs- although I Believe Jesus is the Christ, who was raised from the dead and sits at the right hand of God, it seems some have reduced Jesus to just being a great teacher. But 30% of evangelicals believe Jesus isn’t God? Of course, articles like this can pull statistics from anywhere, so I wouldn’t hold to think it accurate, but, it would appear I’m not alone.

(I just saw this reply, so sorry for the late response.) Thanks for the definition! So an evangelical is just someone who believes that Jesus is Lord and wants to proclaim this good news?

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

(I just saw this reply, so sorry for the late response.) Thanks for the definition! So an evangelical is just someone who believes that Jesus is Lord and wants to proclaim this good news?

The title of that article was Do We Even Know What An Evangelical Christian Is Anymore? I don’t really know what would fall under the category “Evangelical”, but by the name evangelical it would seem to be those who believe Jesus is Lord and want to proclaim this good news. I wouldn’t use the word “ just”, as that seems to me to belittle the whole belief- I would think every believer would be evangelical.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

The title of that article was Do We Even Know What An Evangelical Christian Is Anymore? I don’t really know what would fall under the category “Evangelical”, but by the name evangelical it would seem to be those who believe Jesus is Lord and want to proclaim this good news. I wouldn’t use the word “ just”, as that seems to me to belittle the whole belief- I would think every believer would be evangelical.

I don't know if that definition fits today. For example, before his recent fall, Jerry Falwell Jr. was considered a leading evangelical in America. And even before his fall, he didn't fit that definition.

And what about the over 80% of evangelical's that support Trump? Are they preaching the good news of Jesus? Yet they are considered evangelicals.

[Boxjobox]

I was reading The History of Jehovah Witnesses on Wiccapedia this morning; I thought that since I was accused of being part of that because I don’t see the scriptures proclaiming Jesus as God, but rather that there is one God, the Father, that I better know a little of that which I was accused of promoting.
Most interesting read- particularly in comparison to WL/LSM/LC. It seems the mover and shakers of what became the JWs in the beginning were more interested in Bible study, and sort of saw that Christiandom had left the scriptural stances- very similar to WN/WL. In the beginning they were quite open in receiving all Christians irregardless of beliefs to some degree. As time went on organization, teaching, doctrines, peculiar beliefs, and then exclusive top down control. Some splits occurred which resulted in consolidation of power and conformity to Watchtower. I guess history has a way of repeating itself.
Interesting to me to note is that of all groups- they seem today to be the most “evangelical”. It is very rare a Christian comes to me to preach the gospel, but JWs seem to be quite prolific.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by awareness

I don't know if that definition fits today. For example, before his recent fall, Jerry Falwell Jr. was considered a leading evangelical in America. And even before his fall, he didn't fit that definition.

And what about the over 80% of evangelical's that support Trump? Are they preaching the good news of Jesus? Yet they are considered evangelicals.

The democrat party has become a major religion. Most evangelicals ( an undefined term) wish to have a country where freedom of religion is respected. Most fear that if dems gain control, freedom of conscience, freedom to worship according to ones conscience will be obliterated, therefore the support for Trump. They are not looking to Trump to be their spiritual leader, but rather to preserve freedoms that they cherish.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

The democrat party has become a major religion. Most evangelicals ( an undefined term) wish to have a country where freedom of religion is respected. Most fear that if dems gain control, freedom of conscience, freedom to worship according to ones conscience will be obliterated, therefore the support for Trump. They are not looking to Trump to be their spiritual leader, but rather to preserve freedoms that they cherish.

There is something to that I think. The far-left leaning of the Democratic Party is pushing an agenda of beliefs in a number of areas. For many of us Christians, I suspect, there is not a great choice in either candidate, as they both have significant baggage. But maybe that's just our crazy human condition - lots of baggage!

If Tump does win again, I suspect a major reason will be a reaction from many fearing how far left the democrats have swung. (of course there's also the recent Supreme Court opening with Ginsburg's passing. SHAMELESS PLUG --> I just started a thread on that subject: Supreme Opportunity Thread )

[Boxjobox]

The Supreme Being in the universe is above all and over all- He is Lord of all, King over all; for the Supreme Being, we use the word “God”. Scripture tells us that this Supreme Being is eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God. The gospel, the “ evangel” is (that is, should be) that Jesus, the anointed, the Christ, came as promised by the Supreme Being, died for our sins, and that the Supreme Being raised Christ Jesus from the dead, and exalted him to the highest position in all the Supreme Being’s creation. The Supreme Being made this crucified, resurrected man Lord over all. This is what Ephesians is all about; that we would see this good news, that we would appreciate all that the Supreme Being has done with and through this anointed man, Jesus, and we would have this exalted man Lord over us in every aspect of our lives, and that we believers, together- the church, would honor and proclaim and express what the Supreme Being has accomplished with and through Christ Jesus- the anointed, glorified, exalted man of the Supreme Being’s choosing.

The Supreme Being is Lord over all by His intrinsic being. Jesus is Lord by his appointment by the Supreme Being. The Supreme Being is greater than all. The Supreme Being is head of Christ. The Supreme Being is the God of the Christ. The Supreme Being , as the scripture tells us in the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. Jesus, as the scriptures tell us is the son of God. We, through the working of the Supreme Being, are privileged to share in this whole relation between the Supreme Being and His Christ, so we are seated in the heaven with Christ, we inherit the riches of God with Christ, we call the Supreme Being “Father” as does Christ, we are the sons of The Supreme Being in Christ.

When we say Jesus is Lord, we are not acknowledging him as God, the Supreme Being, but acknowledging the position that the Supreme Being has placed him. The proclamation of the church should be this message, this good news, this evangel. We profess the One True Supreme Being, whom we call God our Father, who is Lord and King over all creation, and we acknowledge Jesus our savior, the anointed man whom The Supreme Being raised from the dead and made Lord over the Supreme Being’s creation. This, again is the message we should receive in reading Paul’s letter to the Ephesians. This is the gospel Paul defends in his letter to the Galatians. This is what is proclaimed throughout Luke’s historical account in Acts. This is what Paul wrote to the Romans. The content of the church should be to appreciate this, live this and proclaim this.

Trinitarianism has ruined and altered this gospel and created a three headed god that has corrupted the the church and the message of the church. This corruption was codified in decrees during the 4th and 5th century and enforced and practiced for the last 1500 years. What we may term the “Evangelical” church started as a breakaway from the corruption brought about by this false gospel, but although many practices were forsaken by the “reformation”, trinitarianism was not. So, today, the evangelicals, and their message still hold to trinitarianism. The Supreme Being has been altered into a three being. The understanding of the God and Father of our Lord Jesus and an appreciation of that has been altered into God the Son, Jesus is God message. So the message of the glorious gospel proclaimed in scripture has been altered. The important revelation given to us by Paul in Ephesians is no longer the message.

[awareness]

Your post below.

Hey BJB, I hear ya. God is God, not his son, and he's a single being ; not suffering from multiple personality disorder, now termed Dissociative identity disorder (DID). And you think the church has been disordered and distorted by the doctrines (dogmas) of the trinity, and that Jesus was God. And the original foundational church was founded without those doctrines, that came along later. And you hold that we need to go back to that. After all, it was the original foundational church, and we need it back ; that's the real recovery of the church.

But looking at the OT, we can see how people were that held to the one true God the Father. And their record, or rap sheet if you will, doesn't look good. Cuz, maybe the trinity is hard wired in our head, but so is disloyalty ... so it appears, according to the one true God the Father in the OT.

You do realize that we're dealing with human beings. And if we manage to get it right, humans will stray, just like they did in the OT.

The foundational church was founded at Pentecost. And that's what we need if we ever hope to recover the foundational church. If it depends on humans, it will fail. Don't you think?

-----------------------------------------------------------
Your Post :

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

The Supreme Being in the universe is above all and over all- He is Lord of all, King over all; for the Supreme Being, we use the word “God”. Scripture tells us that this Supreme Being is eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God. The gospel, the “ evangel” is (that is, should be) that Jesus, the anointed, the Christ, came as promised by the Supreme Being, died for our sins, and that the Supreme Being raised Christ Jesus from the dead, and exalted him to the highest position in all the Supreme Being’s creation. The Supreme Being made this crucified, resurrected man Lord over all. This is what Ephesians is all about; that we would see this good news, that we would appreciate all that the Supreme Being has done with and through this anointed man, Jesus, and we would have this exalted man Lord over us in every aspect of our lives, and that we believers, together- the church, would honor and proclaim and express what the Supreme Being has accomplished with and through Christ Jesus- the anointed, glorified, exalted man of the Supreme Being’s choosing.

The Supreme Being is Lord over all by His intrinsic being. Jesus is Lord by his appointment by the Supreme Being. The Supreme Being is greater than all. The Supreme Being is head of Christ. The Supreme Being is the God of the Christ. The Supreme Being , as the scripture tells us in the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. Jesus, as the scriptures tell us is the son of God. We, through the working of the Supreme Being, are privileged to share in this whole relation between the Supreme Being and His Christ, so we are seated in the heaven with Christ, we inherit the riches of God with Christ, we call the Supreme Being “Father” as does Christ, we are the sons of The Supreme Being in Christ.

When we say Jesus is Lord, we are not acknowledging him as God, the Supreme Being, but acknowledging the position that the Supreme Being has placed him. The proclamation of the church should be this message, this good news, this evangel. We profess the One True Supreme Being, whom we call God our Father, who is Lord and King over all creation, and we acknowledge Jesus our savior, the anointed man whom The Supreme Being raised from the dead and made Lord over the Supreme Being’s creation. This, again is the message we should receive in reading Paul’s letter to the Ephesians. This is the gospel Paul defends in his letter to the Galatians. This is what is proclaimed throughout Luke’s historical account in Acts. This is what Paul wrote to the Romans. The content of the church should be to appreciate this, live this and proclaim this.

Trinitarianism has ruined and altered this gospel and created a three headed god that has corrupted the the church and the message of the church. This corruption was codified in decrees during the 4th and 5th century and enforced and practiced for the last 1500 years. What we may term the “Evangelical” church started as a breakaway from the corruption brought about by this false gospel, but although many practices were forsaken by the “reformation”, trinitarianism was not. So, today, the evangelicals, and their message still hold to trinitarianism. The Supreme Being has been altered into a three being. The understanding of the God and Father of our Lord Jesus and an appreciation of that has been altered into God the Son, Jesus is God message. So the message of the glorious gospel proclaimed in scripture has been altered. The important revelation given to us by Paul in Ephesians is no longer the message.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by awareness

Your post below.

Hey BJB, I hear ya. God is God, not his son, and he's a single being ; not suffering from multiple personality disorder, now termed Dissociative identity disorder (DID). And you think the church has been disordered and distorted by the doctrines (dogmas) of the trinity, and that Jesus was God. And the original foundational church was founded without those doctrines, that came along later. And you hold that we need to go back to that. After all, it was the original foundational church, and we need it back ; that's the real recovery of the church.

But looking at the OT, we can see how people were that held to the one true God the Father. And their record, or rap sheet if you will, doesn't look good. Cuz, maybe the trinity is hard wired in our head, but so is disloyalty ... so it appears, according to the one true God the Father in the OT.

You do realize that we're dealing with human beings. And if we manage to get it right, humans will stray, just like they did in the OT.

The foundational church was founded at Pentecost. And that's what we need if we ever hope to recover the foundational church. If it depends on humans, it will fail. Don't you think?

-----------------------------------------------------------
Your Post :

The beginning of the “church” process started on Pentecost, and look at the message Peter spoke then- nothing about Jesus being God and nothing about a trinity god. Next big event that got the new Jewish believers so upset that Luke had to devote a couple of chapters to was Cornelius conversion- no Jesus is God message and no trinity god spoken of.
Here we are 2000 years later and the evangelical thing seems paramount, which it seems if you look up a website of any assembly falling under the “ evangelical” label, you will see a “we believe” statement that probably goes something like “ we believe the Bible is the word of God, We believe God is triune, We believe Jesus is God” . So much for the gospel, for the foundation; welcome to the extension of the 4th century creed.

This may have worked in the 14 to 18th century. By the 19th century, theological scholars were turning out doctrinal works of all sorts- the stuff W Nee and W Lee stood on. They were all based on the Jesus is God, God is triune concept. 2nd half of 20th century saw some amazing events- radio, tv, commercial flying in the heavens, space travel, most people able to read and write, fast communication with pictures and words, and then, the computer/internet where everything came together at a few clicks of the old mouse.

That article I posted a while back about evangelicals and how many really only view Jesus as a great teacher rather than as God is quite revealing. It seems to me, evangelicals have failed to present what I would call the foundational church truths, and a whole current generation are now either devoid of any religion, or go to Evangelical Sunday morning entertainment meetings, which dull the spirit of the believer.

This is, obviously, just the observation according to boxjobox and has no relevance to the great spiritual work that is really taking place. While boxjobox moans over the situation and wishes for the return to the foundational church practices and teachings of Paul, I guess I’m missing out on the great spiritual revival taking place in evangelical assemblies, which seem to pop up in my city at every high school and junior high school on Sunday mornings (slightly on hold due to Covid-19) . Pastor schools teach triunism, pastors teach congregations triunism, people don’t read triunism in their bibles, and the facade goes on.