Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah
OBW: Can you give us an example of a Christian who is faithful to the calling to which they were called and that this word in Matthew does not apply to?
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I now realize that there is a dense fog hovering over this discussion. Everything I say comes back as part of a question that does not resemble the issues/questions/proposals I have raised.
Give you an example? Yours work just fine. How about a Sunday school teacher for children, or the teenage girl speaking to her classmates or neighborhood friends. Under my reading of this passage, these are part of the general calling we all receive but not as part of the commission in Matthew 28. It seems that the problem is that you don’t recognize that I am not changing the reality of the calling(s) that we each receive for various works of ministry. I am simply suggesting that this particular passage is not the basis for that calling. It seems that it just might be a more specific calling that is not so broadly applicable.
And finding examples will not determine whether I am right or wrong. It will just prove that there really are different callings for all of us.
In other words, even if I am right, nothing of substance changes because I am not saying that we don’t have the calling we have, but that the calling we have is found somewhere other than in this passage. And this passage gives a specific calling to certain ones.
If you think it is important to argue me out of this thinking without actually engaging in the issue(s) that I am bringing up, that is fine. But save your breath (actually, electrons) because my hope was to consider the passage without presuming anything. Take the words that are there. Leave off the overlay of writings that Paul would later pen/dictate. Start at the center of the actual words written and work out from there. Slowly, not with a rush to conclude that what we already think is correct. We may get there. But you are too eager to shortcut the process and conclude. You constantly beg the question. You bring the conclusions into a discussion that is seeking to find the way from evidence to conclusion. A discussion that has no preconceived outcome already on the table. Or at least hopefully so.
And why would I bother going through something that you think is so obviously already correctly decided? Because we are so quick to ignore the words and insert substitute ideas as if supported. We may ultimately be right most of the time. And even when we are not right, it may be that the conclusion is actually correct, but that the way we got there is not. Our conclusion may actually be supported by some other passage, not the one currently in front of us. And simply supposing that it is long settled is the way to miss what the passage is actually trying to tell us. It may be saying something relevant that we are missing.
Or it may not. It could be that in the end, even if I am right about the focus of the passage, nothing is any different in overall terms. But that is a dangerous position to take (IMO). I fear that for every so many places that we blunder through ignoring the actual words and substituting our own thoughts (and we are ultimately alright because there are other passages that actually support our position, and other passages that bring out the thing we are missing in the immediate passage) there will be one for which we simply miss something important because we refused to reconsider.
I would like a discussion that begins with this passage — naked with respect to overlays from the writings of Paul (which came long after Jesus spoke these particular words) or any other external presumption. Once we can work around this for a little while, then (and only then) can we start to consider whether there are other passages that might shed some light on this. And they will be given the same scrutiny as the present passage. For example, simply finding a common word or phrase is not presumed to have the exact same meaning. We might actually come to a conclusion that we all like.
If you want to take on that kind of discussion, then please join in. If not, just say so and this will end. Now. No more jumping to the conclusion. No more presumptive answers. No more begging the question.
And you can presume this about anything that I bring up that seems to be (in your opinion) misreading scripture. If you want to discuss it, then let's discuss. Otherwise, just say you disagree and move on.