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InChristAlone · 05-18-2014, 10:15 AM

OBW, I believe everyone has his or her opinion. And who is right and who is wrong – only God knows. Probably, there is no perfect church on earth, since we human beings are all imperfect.

We need to remember that our spiritual journey is not about seeking the best church or the best doctrine but God. When we die and appear before the Lord, I don’t think He will ask us if we belonged to the EOC, RCC, or Protestant churches. He will ask us if we were faithful to Him, putting our faith into action and bringing His love to people around us. (I am sorry to say this but I’d be a failure. That’s why I want to change my life and get back to the Lord).

As for icons, they are unimportant in themselves. Nobody forces an EO Christian to use them. They are tools, symbols, and means, not the target. The target is God. For an EO Christian, a church (as a building) is neither business center, nor club, nor community center, nor a concert hall. And it's not only some place of worship. It is the “heaven on earth”, place of an ongoing communion with God. Icons are one of the tools/means that help believer to focus his thoughts on spiritual reality, enter into the presence of God, and have communion with Him. BTW, candles symbolize our soul's burning love of God.

When I get at the roots of the EO doctrines and practices, I realize that everything has a meaning. There is no thing-in-itself. But it takes time to get to the core and understand some issues because our culture has lost the meanings behind things that were common in the Bible and much of Christian history. I’ve spent some time and studied the icon issue with an open mind. Again, I might be biased, but the answers that the EO church gives about veneration (veneration, not worshiping!) of icons sound true to me.

Here are a few links that explain the question:

1 Is Venerating Icons Idolatry? by Timothy Copple

http://www.orthodoxconvert.info/Q-A....Icons+Idolatry

When I was first looking into the Orthodox Church, I was a bit puzzled by the veneration of icons, not having a real context to know what it really meant. So, like a good Protestant, I did a Biblical word study on the acts of veneration in the Bible to help see how it was used in the context of worship and otherwise. I originally wrote this back in 1996, but have updated and adjusted it since then a few times.

One of the most difficult things for Protestants to grasp when considering Orthodoxy is the veneration of Icons. The immediate reaction of many is that it is worship, or at least borders on worship of the Icon rather than simply honoring the Saint depicted. After all, most Protestants do have pictures and do use them to remind them of people, yet they do not bow to them or kiss them. It is the bowing and kissing of Icons that seems to cause the most problems. Protestants see in these actions a "worship" of the item. There are two questions to answer concerning this view. One, is this idea and impression Biblical? Two, why do we see these actions as worshiping the Icon?

First, let's look at the Biblical examples and the relationship of bowing and prostrating to worship. To start, we will examine the Hebrew words and examples in the Old Testament. The primary word in the Hebrew for worship and bowing is described in Strong's concordance as:

shachah, shaw-khaw'; a prim. root; to depress, i.e. prostrate (espec. reflex. in homage to royalty or God):—bow (self) down, crouch, fall down (flat), humbly beseech, do (make) obeisance, do reverence, make to stoop, worship.

However, this word is very context sensitive. There are many places where this word is translated as "worship" (Exo 12:27 (Uses "qadad" to bow the head and "shachah" to indicate worship); 1 Chron 29:20; 2 Chr 7:3; 20:18; 29:29-30; Neh 8:6; Psalm 22:29; 95:6). "Worship" in the context of this word specifically refers to the god which one serves.

At the root of this word, is the idea that one bows to another who is to be respected and/or is in authority over you. Bowing was a sign of submission to another person and showing honor. Also, it was a humbling of yourself before another person. The position makes one vulnerable to the other person. With head bowed, you are at the mercy of the other person who could at that point kill you if he wished. In that way, you are submitting yourself to that person.

Consequently, this word is not just translated as "worship" but also frequently translated as "bowing" in context that would not suggest a worshiping attitude. It suggests a respect or recognition of another person's authority. This was frequently done in greeting another person. (Gen 27:29; 33:3-7; 37:10; 41:43; 42:6; 43:26; 47:31; 48:12; 49:8; Ruth 2:10; 1 Sam 20:41; 24:8; 25:23, 41; 28:14; 2 Sam 9:8; 14:22, 33; 18:21; 24:20; 1 Kings 1:15, 23 (obeisance), 31(reverence), 47, 53; 2:19; 2 Kings 2:15; 4:37; 1 Chr 21:21; Est 3:2 (reverence); Isa 60:14).

It is also translated as "bowing" concerning God's command to not bow and serve any idol or graven image (Exo 11:8; 20:4-5 ("shachah" used as bowing to an idol toserve it, thus being in submission to it); 23:24; Lev 26:1; Num 25:2; Deut 5:8-9; Joshua 23:7; 23:16; Judges 2:12, 16-19; 2 Kings 17:35; 2 Chr 25:14). That we could have no other God before us results in not bowing to another god. As Jesus says, we cannot serve two masters equally. Bowing in submission to an idol (the Hebrew word for "idol" means "empty and vain") suggested that they had taken their submission away from God. The emphasis of the bowing was to show whom one served when done to one perceived as a god.

Context is all important. The word could mean worship, or it could mean a simple sign of respect, or even affection in friendship as when David bowed before Jonathan. It is in this context that the word finds it's broadest meaning. However, when we apply the action to a god, it becomes an act of worship. In that act of bowing to a god, it is an indication of submission to it and that you will serve it. It is the person's heart which is critical; who are they serving? In the Bible, whenever bowing to God or an idol is mentioned, the context of serving that god is usually included, the implication being that it is to the exclusion of other gods. It is this attitude of being in submission to God that the word "worship" holds for the Jew. It is not just offering up words and bowing, but an attitude of the heart to serve God and Him alone...

Now let's examine the Greek words and usage in relation to bowing and worship. The primary Greek word for worship is:

4352. proskuneo, pros-koo-neh'-o; from G4314 and a prob. der. of G2965 (mean. to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (lit. or fig.) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore):—worship. (combination of: 4314. pros, pros; a strengthened form of G4253; a prep. of direction; forward to, i.e. toward. and 2965. kuon, koo'-ohn; a prim. word; a dog ["hound"] (lit. or fig.):—dog.)

Kind of a strange way to come up with the word for worship of God, but I would imagine that the attitude would be the same that a dog has for his master. Although the elements of "kissing" and "prostration" are included in the definition, the word is never translated as such in the New Testament, but always as "worship". It occurs 60 times in 54 verses, so I won't quote all of them here. The word is frequently used in relation to the way people approached Jesus. This was the way in which the Gospel writers intended to relate that Jesus was indeed God, for consistently through the New Testament, this worship is reserved for God alone and condemned when directed toward men or other beings. So its free use in relation to Jesus shows the attitude of the writers toward Him, that He is indeed God and worthy to be worshiped.

To read the whole article:

http://www.orthodoxconvert.info/Q-A....Icons+Idolatry

I believe this long article answers all the questions but if it's not enough, here a few other links:

2 No Graven Image: Icons and Their Proper Use by Fr. Jack N. Sparks, Ph.D.

The history of icons and of their use in the Orthodox Church is not only fascinating but instructive. They are no new thing. Nor were they invented by an apostate medieval Church. The use of representations for instruction and as aids to piety goes back to the earliest centuries of the Church, and likely they were there in some form from the very beginning. Certainly we know that even in legal-minded Israel, paintings and other artistic representations used to help the people remember spiritual truth were not at all unknown.

In both the tabernacle and the later temples there were images used, especially of the cherubim. And a recently unearthed synagogue of the last few centuries before Christ has paintings of biblical scenes on its walls.

But was this done contrary to the command of God?

To read the whole article:

http://www.antiochian.org/content/no...eir-proper-use

3 Are not icons images or idols that are forbidden by the ten commandments? Why do the Orthodox give such reverence (kissing, etc) to icons?

The difference between idol and icon is whether the latreia (divine service) is directed to the ultimate source (in Orthodox theology to God the Father) or stops at the person or thing which then becomes an idol. Proskunesis (to express adoration, to offer relative worship) is an act of reverence which can be suitable for things and people other than God, but this depends on the intention and context. Proskunesis is not idolatry if it is offered in a relative sense, with the intention to refer all things to the divine source. For instance, all honor is due to God, but we offer honor to parents and kings / rulers with reference to God who is the source and authority...

To read the whole article:

http://www.orthodoxanswers.org/answer/24/

4 The Functions of Icons by Dr. Constantine Cavarnos

http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/icon_function.aspx

5 What is an Icon? Do Orthodox Christians pray to Icons? Do Icons work miracles? Doesn’t the 2nd Commandment forbid Icons? Icons in the Old Testament.

http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/o...ns-and-relics/

The Icon FAQ
http://waysha.com/faq.htm

Orthodox America
Holy Fathers – On Veneration of Icons (Fr. Alexey Young)
http://www.roca.org/OA/19/19e.htm

Icons and Orthodoxy
http://www.stnicholas-billings.org/Practices/icons.htm

Why Icons?
Jane M. deVyver, M.Th., Ph.D
http://www.firebirdvideos.com/articles/whyicons.htm

The Veneration of Icons
from “The Orthodox Companion”
by Rev. David F. Abramtsov
http://www.orthodoxnet.com/wisdom/hi002.html

Holy Relics

The Place of Holy Relics in the Orthodox Church
by St. Justin Popovich
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/relics_place.aspx

The Veneration of Relics: Making the Holy Spirit “matter”
Dr. Alexander Roman
http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/avrilmai/relics.htm

Why Relics?
Jane M. deVyver, M.Th., Ph.D.
http://www.firebirdvideos.com/articles/whyrelics.htm

Veneration of Holy Relics in Orthodox Tradition
Jack Eapen
http://www.niranamchurch.com/articles1.asp

On the Veneration of the Holy Relics and Remains of the Saints
by Archpriest Vasily Demidov
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/relics.aspx

05-18-2014, 10:15 AM	#16
InChristAlone Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 365	Re: InChristAlone's Blog OBW, I believe everyone has his or her opinion. And who is right and who is wrong – only God knows. Probably, there is no perfect church on earth, since we human beings are all imperfect. We need to remember that our spiritual journey is not about seeking the best church or the best doctrine but God. When we die and appear before the Lord, I don’t think He will ask us if we belonged to the EOC, RCC, or Protestant churches. He will ask us if we were faithful to Him, putting our faith into action and bringing His love to people around us. (I am sorry to say this but I’d be a failure. That’s why I want to change my life and get back to the Lord). As for icons, they are unimportant in themselves. Nobody forces an EO Christian to use them. They are tools, symbols, and means, not the target. The target is God. For an EO Christian, a church (as a building) is neither business center, nor club, nor community center, nor a concert hall. And it's not only some place of worship. It is the “heaven on earth”, place of an ongoing communion with God. Icons are one of the tools/means that help believer to focus his thoughts on spiritual reality, enter into the presence of God, and have communion with Him. BTW, candles symbolize our soul's burning love of God. When I get at the roots of the EO doctrines and practices, I realize that everything has a meaning. There is no thing-in-itself. But it takes time to get to the core and understand some issues because our culture has lost the meanings behind things that were common in the Bible and much of Christian history. I’ve spent some time and studied the icon issue with an open mind. Again, I might be biased, but the answers that the EO church gives about veneration (veneration, not worshiping!) of icons sound true to me. Here are a few links that explain the question: 1 Is Venerating Icons Idolatry? by Timothy Copple http://www.orthodoxconvert.info/Q-A....Icons+Idolatry When I was first looking into the Orthodox Church, I was a bit puzzled by the veneration of icons, not having a real context to know what it really meant. So, like a good Protestant, I did a Biblical word study on the acts of veneration in the Bible to help see how it was used in the context of worship and otherwise. I originally wrote this back in 1996, but have updated and adjusted it since then a few times. One of the most difficult things for Protestants to grasp when considering Orthodoxy is the veneration of Icons. The immediate reaction of many is that it is worship, or at least borders on worship of the Icon rather than simply honoring the Saint depicted. After all, most Protestants do have pictures and do use them to remind them of people, yet they do not bow to them or kiss them. It is the bowing and kissing of Icons that seems to cause the most problems. Protestants see in these actions a "worship" of the item. There are two questions to answer concerning this view. One, is this idea and impression Biblical? Two, why do we see these actions as worshiping the Icon? First, let's look at the Biblical examples and the relationship of bowing and prostrating to worship. To start, we will examine the Hebrew words and examples in the Old Testament. The primary word in the Hebrew for worship and bowing is described in Strong's concordance as: shachah, shaw-khaw'; a prim. root; to depress, i.e. prostrate (espec. reflex. in homage to royalty or God):—bow (self) down, crouch, fall down (flat), humbly beseech, do (make) obeisance, do reverence, make to stoop, worship. However, this word is very context sensitive. There are many places where this word is translated as "worship" (Exo 12:27 (Uses "qadad" to bow the head and "shachah" to indicate worship); 1 Chron 29:20; 2 Chr 7:3; 20:18; 29:29-30; Neh 8:6; Psalm 22:29; 95:6). "Worship" in the context of this word specifically refers to the god which one serves. At the root of this word, is the idea that one bows to another who is to be respected and/or is in authority over you. Bowing was a sign of submission to another person and showing honor. Also, it was a humbling of yourself before another person. The position makes one vulnerable to the other person. With head bowed, you are at the mercy of the other person who could at that point kill you if he wished. In that way, you are submitting yourself to that person. Consequently, this word is not just translated as "worship" but also frequently translated as "bowing" in context that would not suggest a worshiping attitude. It suggests a respect or recognition of another person's authority. This was frequently done in greeting another person. (Gen 27:29; 33:3-7; 37:10; 41:43; 42:6; 43:26; 47:31; 48:12; 49:8; Ruth 2:10; 1 Sam 20:41; 24:8; 25:23, 41; 28:14; 2 Sam 9:8; 14:22, 33; 18:21; 24:20; 1 Kings 1:15, 23 (obeisance), 31(reverence), 47, 53; 2:19; 2 Kings 2:15; 4:37; 1 Chr 21:21; Est 3:2 (reverence); Isa 60:14). It is also translated as "bowing" concerning God's command to not bow and serve any idol or graven image (Exo 11:8; 20:4-5 ("shachah" used as bowing to an idol toserve it, thus being in submission to it); 23:24; Lev 26:1; Num 25:2; Deut 5:8-9; Joshua 23:7; 23:16; Judges 2:12, 16-19; 2 Kings 17:35; 2 Chr 25:14). That we could have no other God before us results in not bowing to another god. As Jesus says, we cannot serve two masters equally. Bowing in submission to an idol (the Hebrew word for "idol" means "empty and vain") suggested that they had taken their submission away from God. The emphasis of the bowing was to show whom one served when done to one perceived as a god. Context is all important. The word could mean worship, or it could mean a simple sign of respect, or even affection in friendship as when David bowed before Jonathan. It is in this context that the word finds it's broadest meaning. However, when we apply the action to a god, it becomes an act of worship. In that act of bowing to a god, it is an indication of submission to it and that you will serve it. It is the person's heart which is critical; who are they serving? In the Bible, whenever bowing to God or an idol is mentioned, the context of serving that god is usually included, the implication being that it is to the exclusion of other gods. It is this attitude of being in submission to God that the word "worship" holds for the Jew. It is not just offering up words and bowing, but an attitude of the heart to serve God and Him alone... Now let's examine the Greek words and usage in relation to bowing and worship. The primary Greek word for worship is: 4352. proskuneo, pros-koo-neh'-o; from G4314 and a prob. der. of G2965 (mean. to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (lit. or fig.) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore):—worship. (combination of: 4314. pros, pros; a strengthened form of G4253; a prep. of direction; forward to, i.e. toward. and 2965. kuon, koo'-ohn; a prim. word; a dog ["hound"] (lit. or fig.):—dog.) Kind of a strange way to come up with the word for worship of God, but I would imagine that the attitude would be the same that a dog has for his master. Although the elements of "kissing" and "prostration" are included in the definition, the word is never translated as such in the New Testament, but always as "worship". It occurs 60 times in 54 verses, so I won't quote all of them here. The word is frequently used in relation to the way people approached Jesus. This was the way in which the Gospel writers intended to relate that Jesus was indeed God, for consistently through the New Testament, this worship is reserved for God alone and condemned when directed toward men or other beings. So its free use in relation to Jesus shows the attitude of the writers toward Him, that He is indeed God and worthy to be worshiped. To read the whole article: http://www.orthodoxconvert.info/Q-A....Icons+Idolatry I believe this long article answers all the questions but if it's not enough, here a few other links: 2 No Graven Image: Icons and Their Proper Use by Fr. Jack N. Sparks, Ph.D. The history of icons and of their use in the Orthodox Church is not only fascinating but instructive. They are no new thing. Nor were they invented by an apostate medieval Church. The use of representations for instruction and as aids to piety goes back to the earliest centuries of the Church, and likely they were there in some form from the very beginning. Certainly we know that even in legal-minded Israel, paintings and other artistic representations used to help the people remember spiritual truth were not at all unknown. In both the tabernacle and the later temples there were images used, especially of the cherubim. And a recently unearthed synagogue of the last few centuries before Christ has paintings of biblical scenes on its walls. But was this done contrary to the command of God? To read the whole article: http://www.antiochian.org/content/no...eir-proper-use 3 Are not icons images or idols that are forbidden by the ten commandments? Why do the Orthodox give such reverence (kissing, etc) to icons? The difference between idol and icon is whether the latreia (divine service) is directed to the ultimate source (in Orthodox theology to God the Father) or stops at the person or thing which then becomes an idol. Proskunesis (to express adoration, to offer relative worship) is an act of reverence which can be suitable for things and people other than God, but this depends on the intention and context. Proskunesis is not idolatry if it is offered in a relative sense, with the intention to refer all things to the divine source. For instance, all honor is due to God, but we offer honor to parents and kings / rulers with reference to God who is the source and authority... To read the whole article: http://www.orthodoxanswers.org/answer/24/ 4 The Functions of Icons by Dr. Constantine Cavarnos http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/icon_function.aspx 5 What is an Icon? Do Orthodox Christians pray to Icons? Do Icons work miracles? Doesn’t the 2nd Commandment forbid Icons? Icons in the Old Testament. http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/o...ns-and-relics/ The Icon FAQ http://waysha.com/faq.htm Orthodox America Holy Fathers – On Veneration of Icons (Fr. Alexey Young) http://www.roca.org/OA/19/19e.htm Icons and Orthodoxy http://www.stnicholas-billings.org/Practices/icons.htm Why Icons? Jane M. deVyver, M.Th., Ph.D http://www.firebirdvideos.com/articles/whyicons.htm The Veneration of Icons from “The Orthodox Companion” by Rev. David F. Abramtsov http://www.orthodoxnet.com/wisdom/hi002.html Holy Relics The Place of Holy Relics in the Orthodox Church by St. Justin Popovich http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/relics_place.aspx The Veneration of Relics: Making the Holy Spirit “matter” Dr. Alexander Roman http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/avrilmai/relics.htm Why Relics? Jane M. deVyver, M.Th., Ph.D. http://www.firebirdvideos.com/articles/whyrelics.htm Veneration of Holy Relics in Orthodox Tradition Jack Eapen http://www.niranamchurch.com/articles1.asp On the Veneration of the Holy Relics and Remains of the Saints by Archpriest Vasily Demidov http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/relics.aspx __________________ 1 Corinthians 13:4-8