Thread: Lee's Trinity
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Old 02-10-2017, 08:01 AM   #72
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Default Re: Lee's Trinity

Originally Posted by Drake View Post
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

This verse is clear that the Father and the Son indwelt one another when this was stated. That the words that Jesus spoke were not His own but the Father's and it was the Father doing the works. If the Father and Son indwelt one another and the Father did the works, what change occurred on the cross? Of course the Son died on the cross but where is the verse that indicates the essential bond was broken in the Godhead?
You must understand that the aspect of being "in" one another is a way of speaking of their oneness and unity in different terms than the popular Trinitarian term of "essence." As I said before, spending time talking about the humanity of Jesus is failing when you cause the aspects of the one (the "une") to confuse the three. Insisting that the "tri" were participants in receiving nails in the hands (wrists?) and feet, and then a sword in the side, death and burial is to do just that confuse the three.

You have provided no verse that places the Father on the cross with Christ. Rather, you have taken verses that speak of the oneness of God (the "une") and insist that they dismiss the "tri" and place them all on the cross.

The cross was Christ's to bear alone. The turning of the face of the Father is the completeness of the separation. The Father condemned Jesus as the sacrifice for the sins of the world. And while the time of death was 3 days according to the prophecy, the Father was busy from the moment of the exhale of Christ's last breath. It began with the tearing of the veil from the top to the bottom to break the separation between God and man.

Then when Jesus appeared to the women on the morning of his resurrection, he said that he had to go to the Father. Under your "they are all there" theory, there is nowhere to go. Yet he had to ascend to accomplish that. How do you deal with that other than to admit that their oneness is not in being, but in something else. If it was in being, there would be no one to go to. There would be no one else to pray to.

And you seek a verse, so here it is.

John 17:20-21. My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.

Here Jesus said that we are to be one just as the Father is in Jesus and Jesus is in the Father. We like to take this to extremes. And you have done so in a manner than puts the Father in Christ being crucified and therefore being there. But if the oneness that we human Christians can experience is likened to the kind of oneness that is described as "you in me and I in you" then maybe we aren't so clear about how far that goes, or exactly what it means. If it means that we are to be unified like the Father being present inside the Son as he is crucified, then there is an obvious extent in which we are simply not capable of being that "one."

I can never truly see and experience your life from within you. But I can have the experience of a oneness that transcends whether I voted for Hillary (I didn't) and you voted for Trump. (Obviously I have no idea whether you are even in the U.S., so it is just an example.) Whether I came to believe in Christ through a creedal system while you were approached on a campus by some who through their speaking (and the Holy Spirit's working through their words) came to believe in Christ is of no consequence because we are one. Whether your calling is to carry the gospel to tribes in the jungles of Kalimantan while mine is simply to grow in righteousness as an image bearer of God showing those around me something not understood as normal for humans. Whether you worship in a demonstrative way in some kind of semi-charismatic assembly while I sing hymns, pray, confess (with a Kyrie Eleison), etc. we should be one.

And since the Father in the Son and the Son in the Father is how Jesus described the oneness between us that he prayed for concerning us, then I would suggest that your understanding of the meaning of the Father begin in the Son is not consistent with what little we have as evidence of what that is about. Not as simple as The Father is crawling around inside the Son and visa versa.
I once thought I was. . . . but I may have been mistaken Edge (with apologies)
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